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	<title>Comments on: Japanese Group Pushes for $9 Billion, 22,000-Mile Space Elevator</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/</link>
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		<title>By: FreeFall</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2117</link>
		<dc:creator>FreeFall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2117</guid>
		<description>Actually,  Brian Too, there have already been successful small (very very small) scale deployments. That is one of the purposes of the Elevator2010 games being hosted by the Spaceforward foundation. The games increase awareness and keep areo-space focus on the elevator as well as testing out various designs. All of the technology besides the cable itself is estimated to be ready for deployment by 2018 and it is estimated that work can begin on the cable itself by 2025.

In the meantime, the technology is being applied in other areas, such as bridges (the cable material) or fuel re-supply (the power beaming system suggested for powering climbers). They not only have what things might look like, they have seen them work. The major problem is that with an increase in length, an increase in tensile strength is required. Everything else can be bested small scale, and the tensile strength problem has seen great leaps over the last decade (it is actually ahead of the original estimates).

Cost may indeed be greater than the current estimates, but even an increase by a full order of magnitude would be a pittance to pay for the capabilities of a space elevator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually,  Brian Too, there have already been successful small (very very small) scale deployments. That is one of the purposes of the Elevator2010 games being hosted by the Spaceforward foundation. The games increase awareness and keep areo-space focus on the elevator as well as testing out various designs. All of the technology besides the cable itself is estimated to be ready for deployment by 2018 and it is estimated that work can begin on the cable itself by 2025.</p>
<p>In the meantime, the technology is being applied in other areas, such as bridges (the cable material) or fuel re-supply (the power beaming system suggested for powering climbers). They not only have what things might look like, they have seen them work. The major problem is that with an increase in length, an increase in tensile strength is required. Everything else can be bested small scale, and the tensile strength problem has seen great leaps over the last decade (it is actually ahead of the original estimates).</p>
<p>Cost may indeed be greater than the current estimates, but even an increase by a full order of magnitude would be a pittance to pay for the capabilities of a space elevator.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Too</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>I agree, it might well be possible but the price tag will be 10x the estimated $9 billion.

Take any large infrastructure project where size/technology/logistics/political boundaries must be pushed.  The Channel Tunnel, the Boston Big Dig, the LHC, Airbus A380, Boeing Dreamliner, the Space Shuttle, Hubble, the ISS.  All fairly successful (let&#039;s say) but they blew their budgets and often the timelines as well.

In this case the space elevator folks don&#039;t have a cable implementation, they have a theoretical description of what such a device MIGHT look like and MIGHT be constructed out of.  Same goes for the cable cars.  They also don&#039;t have much in the way of similar projects to point to, and that means the  list of architectural, construction, and engineering firms with experience is exactly zero.  This project has such high risks that any such firms might ask to be completely indemnified against project failure (if they agree to get involved at all).

For all that it&#039;s still worth trying.  Rockets just don&#039;t seem to have the mojo needed to bring costs and risks down to where sending something into space is no more dangerous, expensive or remarkable than taking an intercontinental vacation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, it might well be possible but the price tag will be 10x the estimated $9 billion.</p>
<p>Take any large infrastructure project where size/technology/logistics/political boundaries must be pushed.  The Channel Tunnel, the Boston Big Dig, the LHC, Airbus A380, Boeing Dreamliner, the Space Shuttle, Hubble, the ISS.  All fairly successful (let&#8217;s say) but they blew their budgets and often the timelines as well.</p>
<p>In this case the space elevator folks don&#8217;t have a cable implementation, they have a theoretical description of what such a device MIGHT look like and MIGHT be constructed out of.  Same goes for the cable cars.  They also don&#8217;t have much in the way of similar projects to point to, and that means the  list of architectural, construction, and engineering firms with experience is exactly zero.  This project has such high risks that any such firms might ask to be completely indemnified against project failure (if they agree to get involved at all).</p>
<p>For all that it&#8217;s still worth trying.  Rockets just don&#8217;t seem to have the mojo needed to bring costs and risks down to where sending something into space is no more dangerous, expensive or remarkable than taking an intercontinental vacation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonny</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>when lifting, you can use any means you like....
Use a couple of wheels to grab onto the tape, and pull yourself up using electric motors, power could come up the cable itself... or partially from solar panels on the elevator or the orbiting station (plenty of sunlight in space)

Linear Magnets perhaps.

or grab on and climb with your hands.... (this may take a while, but would most likely open up a whole new crazy record breaking sport)

The benst part, that makes it so cheap.... is that when things come back down the elevator... the motor can be a generator... giving energy back... keeping your costs down.... So you only pay in energy for the payload lifted, not the elevator itself.

You could even setup some kind of cheap/free/profitable energy system...
Setup another elevator on the moon.
Lift stuff for cheap on moon gravity, fling it towards earth.... then let it drop down the earth alevator under much higher gravity, and collect net power generated for free.
Probably impractical... but the elevator opens up all sorts of crazy ideas.

easiest way to make it safe.... run a whole bunch of tethers.. super redundant... the more the better

assuming we can make the tether.... isnt the main problem, getting a big anchor object (and a tether maker) into orbit ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>when lifting, you can use any means you like&#8230;.<br />
Use a couple of wheels to grab onto the tape, and pull yourself up using electric motors, power could come up the cable itself&#8230; or partially from solar panels on the elevator or the orbiting station (plenty of sunlight in space)</p>
<p>Linear Magnets perhaps.</p>
<p>or grab on and climb with your hands&#8230;. (this may take a while, but would most likely open up a whole new crazy record breaking sport)</p>
<p>The benst part, that makes it so cheap&#8230;. is that when things come back down the elevator&#8230; the motor can be a generator&#8230; giving energy back&#8230; keeping your costs down&#8230;. So you only pay in energy for the payload lifted, not the elevator itself.</p>
<p>You could even setup some kind of cheap/free/profitable energy system&#8230;<br />
Setup another elevator on the moon.<br />
Lift stuff for cheap on moon gravity, fling it towards earth&#8230;. then let it drop down the earth alevator under much higher gravity, and collect net power generated for free.<br />
Probably impractical&#8230; but the elevator opens up all sorts of crazy ideas.</p>
<p>easiest way to make it safe&#8230;. run a whole bunch of tethers.. super redundant&#8230; the more the better</p>
<p>assuming we can make the tether&#8230;. isnt the main problem, getting a big anchor object (and a tether maker) into orbit ?</p>
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		<title>By: Nebsy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2114</link>
		<dc:creator>Nebsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2114</guid>
		<description>The physics of this do not make sense.  Each time you &#039;lift&#039; a load into space you require an opposing force.  Where does this force come from?   The centripetal force of the load in space?  Then that force would constantly be pulling on the cables.   If you swing a ball on the end of a rope the equally opposing force pulls you out.  How does this affect the orbit of the earth?
Wow this is interesting but I don&#039;t think the physics allow for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The physics of this do not make sense.  Each time you &#8216;lift&#8217; a load into space you require an opposing force.  Where does this force come from?   The centripetal force of the load in space?  Then that force would constantly be pulling on the cables.   If you swing a ball on the end of a rope the equally opposing force pulls you out.  How does this affect the orbit of the earth?<br />
Wow this is interesting but I don&#8217;t think the physics allow for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliza Strickland</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2113</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliza Strickland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2113</guid>
		<description>I wish I had more info for y&#039;all about whether the Japan Space Elevator Association has serious financial backing, but since the group&#039;s Web site is in Japanese, I&#039;m stymied. I&#039;m hoping more info about this proposal will come out following the conference in November.

I agree, the $9 billion price tag sounds astonishingly low, but that&#039;s the number the group is putting out there. Also, in the 2004 DISCOVER article that I linked to the engineer cites a $6 billion price, so I guess all the dreamers agree that it could be done on the cheap.

@Steve: Yes indeed, the elevator&#039;s nanotube cables could be damaged by all sorts of things! Especially space debris. Some say that if you make the nanotube ribbons strong enough they won&#039;t be damaged. Others say that more drastic measures would be necessary. Again, from the 2004 article:

&quot;Since the dawn of the space age in the late 1950s, low Earth orbit has become a junkyard, with about 110,000 hunks of old spacecraft one half inch or larger hurtling at speeds as high as 30,000 miles per hour. Pieces moving 20 times faster than a high-powered rifle bullet would damage even the space elevator’s superstrong fibers. Edwards’s response: Make the ribbon’s base mobile so that it can dodge the biggest pieces that NASA tracks (a 30- to 60-foot movement would be needed every six days); make the ribbon wider in low Earth orbit, where debris is most plentiful; and regularly patch small gashes.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had more info for y&#8217;all about whether the Japan Space Elevator Association has serious financial backing, but since the group&#8217;s Web site is in Japanese, I&#8217;m stymied. I&#8217;m hoping more info about this proposal will come out following the conference in November.</p>
<p>I agree, the $9 billion price tag sounds astonishingly low, but that&#8217;s the number the group is putting out there. Also, in the 2004 DISCOVER article that I linked to the engineer cites a $6 billion price, so I guess all the dreamers agree that it could be done on the cheap.</p>
<p>@Steve: Yes indeed, the elevator&#8217;s nanotube cables could be damaged by all sorts of things! Especially space debris. Some say that if you make the nanotube ribbons strong enough they won&#8217;t be damaged. Others say that more drastic measures would be necessary. Again, from the 2004 article:</p>
<p>&#8220;Since the dawn of the space age in the late 1950s, low Earth orbit has become a junkyard, with about 110,000 hunks of old spacecraft one half inch or larger hurtling at speeds as high as 30,000 miles per hour. Pieces moving 20 times faster than a high-powered rifle bullet would damage even the space elevator’s superstrong fibers. Edwards’s response: Make the ribbon’s base mobile so that it can dodge the biggest pieces that NASA tracks (a 30- to 60-foot movement would be needed every six days); make the ribbon wider in low Earth orbit, where debris is most plentiful; and regularly patch small gashes.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2112</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2112</guid>
		<description>Steve,

That&#039;s a very good question. Most proposals I&#039;ve seen suggest the elevator be built on a floating sea platform, like a mobile oil well. That would allow it to set up shop somewhere far from terrorist or military hot spots, perhaps in the Central Pacific. It would be defended by continuous air and sea patrols, and could--to an extent--move to avoid problems or storms.

A bigger danger might be orbital debris striking the tether, and I have no idea how you solve that problem. The tether is going to provide a pretty big area for impacts, so you have to figure it&#039;s going to get hit often. If the elevator cab were to lose tension in transit, due to a tether break or a power loss or some other problem, it would go into some ballistic trajectory based on how high it was on the cable (and thus its angular velocity). If it was close to the top, it might be very near a geosynchronous orbit. If it was very close to the bottom, it would drop almost straight down. If it were somewhere in between, it would fall like a hurled stone. One could imagine an escape pod for the crew, similar to a Mercury capsule, with a reentry shield and parachutes. Solid rockets could separate the capsule (maybe) and send it on a safe reentry trajectory. If the cable broke while you were near the ground, though, I don&#039;t think there would be much you could do.

Perhaps, if this ever gets off the ground, the system will be built with two redundant cables, so that a break in one is not catastrophic. Once you&#039;ve built one, after all, building the second one is easier because the cable cars themselves can do it. Two cables also opens up some additional possibilities for powering the system electrically.

Anyway, it would all be a supreme technical challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a very good question. Most proposals I&#8217;ve seen suggest the elevator be built on a floating sea platform, like a mobile oil well. That would allow it to set up shop somewhere far from terrorist or military hot spots, perhaps in the Central Pacific. It would be defended by continuous air and sea patrols, and could&#8211;to an extent&#8211;move to avoid problems or storms.</p>
<p>A bigger danger might be orbital debris striking the tether, and I have no idea how you solve that problem. The tether is going to provide a pretty big area for impacts, so you have to figure it&#8217;s going to get hit often. If the elevator cab were to lose tension in transit, due to a tether break or a power loss or some other problem, it would go into some ballistic trajectory based on how high it was on the cable (and thus its angular velocity). If it was close to the top, it might be very near a geosynchronous orbit. If it was very close to the bottom, it would drop almost straight down. If it were somewhere in between, it would fall like a hurled stone. One could imagine an escape pod for the crew, similar to a Mercury capsule, with a reentry shield and parachutes. Solid rockets could separate the capsule (maybe) and send it on a safe reentry trajectory. If the cable broke while you were near the ground, though, I don&#8217;t think there would be much you could do.</p>
<p>Perhaps, if this ever gets off the ground, the system will be built with two redundant cables, so that a break in one is not catastrophic. Once you&#8217;ve built one, after all, building the second one is easier because the cable cars themselves can do it. Two cables also opens up some additional possibilities for powering the system electrically.</p>
<p>Anyway, it would all be a supreme technical challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2111</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2111</guid>
		<description>It would seem that the space elevator could be damaged by severe weather, terrorist attacks, or war.  How could we rescue a crew stuck in transit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would seem that the space elevator could be damaged by severe weather, terrorist attacks, or war.  How could we rescue a crew stuck in transit?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian in Langley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2110</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian in Langley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2110</guid>
		<description>Damian.. Excellent reply .. thank you.. I get it now.. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damian.. Excellent reply .. thank you.. I get it now.. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2109</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2109</guid>
		<description>Considering the US government is seriously contemplating &quot;investing&quot; 700 billion dollars to save a messed up finance industry, I think &quot;9 billion dollars&quot;  in a space elevator would have a much higher return.

Does the article perhaps mean 9 trillion? 9 billion just seems so small, I&#039;d think if that were true Bill Gates could potential purchase one of his own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Considering the US government is seriously contemplating &#8220;investing&#8221; 700 billion dollars to save a messed up finance industry, I think &#8220;9 billion dollars&#8221;  in a space elevator would have a much higher return.</p>
<p>Does the article perhaps mean 9 trillion? 9 billion just seems so small, I&#8217;d think if that were true Bill Gates could potential purchase one of his own.</p>
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		<title>By: Damian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2108</link>
		<dc:creator>Damian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/22/japanese-group-pushes-for-9-billion-22000-mile-space-elevator/#comment-2108</guid>
		<description>Ian, I&#039;m not sure what your question is, but I&#039;ll try to help. The speed you have to travel at to maintain a state of &quot;orbit&quot; is a function of altitude. Orbit is stable when the force of gravity balances the &quot;centripetal force&quot; caused by your momentum trying to hurl you into space. The lower your orbital altitude, the stronger the pull of gravity (gravity goes as r^2), so you have to go faster for the centripetal force to cancel it. Geosynchronous orbit is the altitude you have to climb to so that your orbital velocity just happens to match the speed at which the world turns. Any lower and the world is turning slower than you; any higher and the world is turning faster than you. And if you really want to stay above one point, you have to be on the equator, and even then, seasonal variations will make you wobble around that point (this is called an analemma). When you fulfill all of those conditions (a circular orbit above the equator at exactly the height needed so that the world is turning under you at the same speed you&#039;re orbiting), that is called a &quot;geostationary orbit&quot;. That is prime orbital real estate, as you can probably imagine, so it&#039;s pretty crowded in the geostationary orbital band. Fortunately, because they&#039;re all holding position above one spot on earth, they don&#039;t tend to jostle each other. Check out this map of all the satellites to get a pretty good picture of the geostationary orbit.

http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3d.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, I&#8217;m not sure what your question is, but I&#8217;ll try to help. The speed you have to travel at to maintain a state of &#8220;orbit&#8221; is a function of altitude. Orbit is stable when the force of gravity balances the &#8220;centripetal force&#8221; caused by your momentum trying to hurl you into space. The lower your orbital altitude, the stronger the pull of gravity (gravity goes as r^2), so you have to go faster for the centripetal force to cancel it. Geosynchronous orbit is the altitude you have to climb to so that your orbital velocity just happens to match the speed at which the world turns. Any lower and the world is turning slower than you; any higher and the world is turning faster than you. And if you really want to stay above one point, you have to be on the equator, and even then, seasonal variations will make you wobble around that point (this is called an analemma). When you fulfill all of those conditions (a circular orbit above the equator at exactly the height needed so that the world is turning under you at the same speed you&#8217;re orbiting), that is called a &#8220;geostationary orbit&#8221;. That is prime orbital real estate, as you can probably imagine, so it&#8217;s pretty crowded in the geostationary orbital band. Fortunately, because they&#8217;re all holding position above one spot on earth, they don&#8217;t tend to jostle each other. Check out this map of all the satellites to get a pretty good picture of the geostationary orbit.</p>
<p><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3d.html" rel="nofollow">http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3d.html</a></p>
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