Comments on: Did Spear-Throwing Humans Kill Neanderthals?

By: scribbler

scribbler — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:03:15 +0000

Um, arrows and spears are high energy (greater velocity) and high momentum (when you double the speed, you quadruple the force).

What they are comparing the arrow and/or Mag Spear with is the thicker, heavier, stronger spears most commonly used by Thals. It is also presuming that Thals did not throw projectile weapons.

As for reproducing wounds, I can literally reproduce nearly any wound with any weapon IF I am allowed to manipulate the underlying situations as I will, being an avid and experienced hunter.

;-)

Trouble here is that the range of specs could have been easily produced with both hand held and projectile weapons. Being in the normal range of both weapons, it then technically favors neither.

I agree that there isn’t enough evidence to draw any hard conclusions! It’s certainly fun and useful to imagine possible scenarios and such. However, the list is nearly endless that could account for this evidence, like the man was lying down and was stabbed by a running man or the man was on an animal’s back as it ran past a Thal buddy who accidentally stabbed him or Jr. made his first, smaller lighter spear and got antsy and threw it into Papa Thal instead of the Mammoth…

Endless speculation and finite, minuscule hard, incontrovertible evidence.

Reminds me of a documentary I was watching once where the arch. was going on and on about the religious nature of a small carved reindeer and its significance in a ritualistic primitive society while the Inuit children sat and played with TOYS made of the same material and in a similar fashion…

;-)

Great thoughts and reasoning to all! Interesting mental exercises! Great exchanges of ideas!

By: Albert Bakker

Albert Bakker — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:10:34 +0000

#8 No, actually it says exactly the opposite. What this report says it that the wound is: “..most consistent with injury from a low kinetic energy, low momentum weapon. ” Which translates into a an arrow or a light spear, maybe such as in the spear-thrower Churchill shows us in the picture (together with a big and heavy Neanderthal spear) “..travelling along a ballistic trajectory.” (Entering Shanidar 3 in his left side at a 45 degree angle between his 8th and 9th rib, cutting the 9th.) But it does not rule out “.. accidental injury or attack by a conspecific wielding a hand-held weapon.”

This in itself is not really any source of controversy. Again the question is what sort of conclusions you can draw from it. I would think not so much.

By: scribbler

scribbler — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:14:13 +0000

This evidence doesn’t suggest a projectile weapon, it simply doesn’t rule one out.

Big difference…

By: Albert Bakker

Albert Bakker — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 06:47:00 +0000

#6 I really don’t think we need to prove that Homo Sapiens are a murderous bunch by looking into a possible Neandercide. You must not own a television or read newspapers, bless you.

And also in this particular case that injury does really strongly suggest a projectile type weapon. Your theory in this case does not hold water.

By: lorelei23

lorelei23 — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 03:26:16 +0000

Too many scientists seem determined to prove that homo sapiens are inherently murderous. It is much more likely that this Neanderthal got in the way of a fellow hunter’s spear while they were trying to take down something big and dangerous. Hunting accidents are very common. Another researcher noted the large number of healed breaks on Neanderthal males, did an analysis and found they matched injuries from modern-day rodeo clowns. The Neanderthals were getting way too close to their prey.

By: tulip

tulip — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:01:51 +0000

climate change, disease, war, meteor strikes, solar flares and wind, predators, methane and volcanic eruptions, canabalism, and cigarettes make for a pickup truck chock full’a bones:σ

By: Albert Bakker

Albert Bakker — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:32:01 +0000

But Neanderthals did throw spears at least occasionally. It just wasn’t usually a very useful hunting tactic in their habitat + had the side-effect of leaving them momentarily defenceless against potentially dangerous larger prey, either in a miss or an even more dangerous non-lethal hit, or against other dangerous predators in the vincinity looking for an easy snack. Which would then occur in an age when (as a provider for a small group) it was probably not a good idea to get an infectious wound, since homeopathy wasn’t invented yet.

I don’t know, but it seems to me to be a lot of story spun from very little evidence. We will see if they can get their case more solid than this.

By: Jumblepudding

Jumblepudding — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:22:49 +0000

Maybe the Cromag speared Mr. Shanidar so he could date his wife, resulting in my ancestors.

By: scribbler

scribbler — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 02:13:25 +0000

I heard somewhere that all the bones from both the Mags and Thals would easily fit in the back of a pickup truck. So, as for evidence, I’d say that “lacking” about covers it all…

I agree amphiox, my guess is that men haven’t changed that much so to believe these men would have behaved as other men have and do is the best theory to work under until there is more/better proof.

Don’t know who or how it was figgered but also heard that if the Thals had reproduced with just 2% more survival rates, they’d be here today. Certainly, the Mags could easily have killed that number but I personally think that if they were warring with the Thals, they would have killed way more than that…

However, if one took a model similar to Native Americans, it would be easy to see how a new, more technologically advanced “tribe” moving in competing for the same resources would easily account for that small but critical drop.

By: amphiox

amphiox — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:55:41 +0000

It seems likely to me that sapiens-neanderthal interactions ran the gamut of interpersonal interactions between people today, from war/murder/assault to run-away-in-terror to share-the-landscape-while-ignoring-the-other guy (or other-guy’s-territory-is-taboo-land/forbidden-zone) to trade to alliance to hanky-panky.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one day we found a modern human skull with its face smashed by a neanderthal fist, and I don’t think any individual finding of this sort makes any kind of case regarding systemic violence by one group on another as a factor in one group’s extinction, one way or another.