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	<title>Comments on: Could Infrared-Loving Chlorophyll Let Solar Cells Capture More Energy?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/</link>
	<description>80beats is DISCOVER&#039;s news aggregator, weaving together the choicest tidbits from the best articles covering the day&#039;s most compelling topics.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 14:07:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Georg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-253343</link>
		<dc:creator>Georg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-253343</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Is there something unique to chlorophyll f that would make it easier to incorporate into solar cells? &lt;/i&gt;

No, of course not, the last dye to try would be any kind of chlorophyll,
because it is very sensitive to oxygen and light when isolated from 
living cells. 
Moreover every silicon cell has its optical maximum in the region 
of near infrared. No chlorophyll is needed to achieve that. 
Georg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Is there something unique to chlorophyll f that would make it easier to incorporate into solar cells? </i></p>
<p>No, of course not, the last dye to try would be any kind of chlorophyll,<br />
because it is very sensitive to oxygen and light when isolated from<br />
living cells.<br />
Moreover every silicon cell has its optical maximum in the region<br />
of near infrared. No chlorophyll is needed to achieve that.<br />
Georg</p>
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		<title>By: MT-LA</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-253056</link>
		<dc:creator>MT-LA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-253056</guid>
		<description>&quot;...the newly found chlorophyll might find use in solar cells.&quot; 
Is there any current technology that incorporates chlorophyll of any kind into solar cells?  Is there something unique to chlorophyll f that would make it easier to incorporate into solar cells?  I ask because I think it&#039;s funny that &quot;some researchers already have grand plans for the [newly discovered] molecule&quot; when humanity hasn&#039;t yet learned how to use the more common chlorophyll.

Torbjörn Larsson, you seem to have a good head for this.  Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;the newly found chlorophyll might find use in solar cells.&#8221;<br />
Is there any current technology that incorporates chlorophyll of any kind into solar cells?  Is there something unique to chlorophyll f that would make it easier to incorporate into solar cells?  I ask because I think it&#8217;s funny that &#8220;some researchers already have grand plans for the [newly discovered] molecule&#8221; when humanity hasn&#8217;t yet learned how to use the more common chlorophyll.</p>
<p>Torbjörn Larsson, you seem to have a good head for this.  Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris the Canadian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-252086</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris the Canadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-252086</guid>
		<description>For me, what this latest discovery underscores is our need to protect our remaining natural world.  It seems we discover 100 new things every day from nature that helps us develop new technologies and medicines.   I wonder how many more discoveries have we as a species lost for all eternity because of our gluttonous and wasteful ways.  The destruction of rainforests, the polluting of the oceans and air, the melting of arctic and antarctic ice shelves, and the over harvesting and extinction of a variety of animal and plant species are all tragedies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, what this latest discovery underscores is our need to protect our remaining natural world.  It seems we discover 100 new things every day from nature that helps us develop new technologies and medicines.   I wonder how many more discoveries have we as a species lost for all eternity because of our gluttonous and wasteful ways.  The destruction of rainforests, the polluting of the oceans and air, the melting of arctic and antarctic ice shelves, and the over harvesting and extinction of a variety of animal and plant species are all tragedies.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert E</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-251991</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-251991</guid>
		<description>Silly question, but if the other four are a, b, c, &amp; d why is the new one f?   What happened to e?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silly question, but if the other four are a, b, c, &#038; d why is the new one f?   What happened to e?</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-251347</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-251347</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
EM antennas coupled to chemical metabolism
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, and new research seems to confirm a long held suspicion of some: these natural light absorbers are &lt;b&gt;quantum&lt;/b&gt; coupled to the rest of the molecule system. (Because such a model is tested well by predicting the antenna dynamics.) 

Apparently the &quot;Q&quot; coupling [slight pun, since traditional high Q value resonators are good resonators] is both energy and time efficient; instead of EM energy being rattling about and wasted because of bad impedance matching the quantum system moves it without very little loss in energy and time further away to do chemical work. 

IIRC it is a form of quantum coherent container coupling, one can make an analogy of a bath tub sloshing over and the slosh captured timely. In a conventional impedance coupled system the tub would keep sloshing many times from the &quot;back slosh&quot; before settling.

This speedy coupling releases the antenna quicker and so increases its efficiency in two ways simultaneously. 

Efficient little piece of biochemical machinery function evolution has stumbled on and perfected!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
EM antennas coupled to chemical metabolism
</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, and new research seems to confirm a long held suspicion of some: these natural light absorbers are <b>quantum</b> coupled to the rest of the molecule system. (Because such a model is tested well by predicting the antenna dynamics.) </p>
<p>Apparently the &#8220;Q&#8221; coupling [slight pun, since traditional high Q value resonators are good resonators] is both energy and time efficient; instead of EM energy being rattling about and wasted because of bad impedance matching the quantum system moves it without very little loss in energy and time further away to do chemical work. </p>
<p>IIRC it is a form of quantum coherent container coupling, one can make an analogy of a bath tub sloshing over and the slosh captured timely. In a conventional impedance coupled system the tub would keep sloshing many times from the &#8220;back slosh&#8221; before settling.</p>
<p>This speedy coupling releases the antenna quicker and so increases its efficiency in two ways simultaneously. </p>
<p>Efficient little piece of biochemical machinery function evolution has stumbled on and perfected!</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-251327</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-251327</guid>
		<description>Actually stacking differential wavelength sensitivity solar cells have been done for quite awhile, without developers being aware of the nature doing it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
But very strange is that gap in the green of the “normal” chlorophylls :
what is this good for?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

AFAIU plant photosynthesis uses a two photon metabolism to extract energy, one energetic blue photon and the remaining sufficient as red. In this way plants uses infalling light more efficiently.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
thermosynthesis
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Right, but the citation shows that it is the oxygenic metabolism that is surprising. It all depends on how the chlorophyll system extracts energy, doesn&#039;t it?

IIRC people didn&#039;t think you could utilize less energetic photons in the standard way. It would be interesting to know how it does its trick!

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Near infrared correlates to a temperature above 1000 °C!
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So? The sun surface temperature is way above that, it emits photons in a ~ 6000 K roughly black body distribution. The 465 nm photon is from a ~ 6200 K peak black body emitter, the 697 nm from a ~ 4200 K peak bbe, 706 nm from a ~ 4100 K peak bbe.

Granted the atmosphere filters many of them out (which is why we see in the more pervasive visible light that the atmospheric windows let in), but there are IR photons left, especially these associated with the visible window. Don&#039;t mistake our adaptations wavelength sensitivity for the actual windowed wavelengths.

As for how the cells extract the incipient photon energy, well that _is_ the trick. But it isn&#039;t dependent on thermal processes as such, chlorophylls are EM antennas coupled to chemical metabolism. The newly discovered trait should be a phylogenetically related variant of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually stacking differential wavelength sensitivity solar cells have been done for quite awhile, without developers being aware of the nature doing it.</p>
<blockquote><p>
But very strange is that gap in the green of the “normal” chlorophylls :<br />
what is this good for?
</p></blockquote>
<p>AFAIU plant photosynthesis uses a two photon metabolism to extract energy, one energetic blue photon and the remaining sufficient as red. In this way plants uses infalling light more efficiently.</p>
<blockquote><p>
thermosynthesis
</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, but the citation shows that it is the oxygenic metabolism that is surprising. It all depends on how the chlorophyll system extracts energy, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>IIRC people didn&#8217;t think you could utilize less energetic photons in the standard way. It would be interesting to know how it does its trick!</p>
<blockquote><p>
Near infrared correlates to a temperature above 1000 °C!
</p></blockquote>
<p>So? The sun surface temperature is way above that, it emits photons in a ~ 6000 K roughly black body distribution. The 465 nm photon is from a ~ 6200 K peak black body emitter, the 697 nm from a ~ 4200 K peak bbe, 706 nm from a ~ 4100 K peak bbe.</p>
<p>Granted the atmosphere filters many of them out (which is why we see in the more pervasive visible light that the atmospheric windows let in), but there are IR photons left, especially these associated with the visible window. Don&#8217;t mistake our adaptations wavelength sensitivity for the actual windowed wavelengths.</p>
<p>As for how the cells extract the incipient photon energy, well that _is_ the trick. But it isn&#8217;t dependent on thermal processes as such, chlorophylls are EM antennas coupled to chemical metabolism. The newly discovered trait should be a phylogenetically related variant of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Georg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-250681</link>
		<dc:creator>Georg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-250681</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We even referred to this as thermosynthesis.&lt;/i&gt;

This is nonsense!  Near infrared correlates to a temperature 
above 1000 °C!
Regards
Georg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We even referred to this as thermosynthesis.</i></p>
<p>This is nonsense!  Near infrared correlates to a temperature<br />
above 1000 °C!<br />
Regards<br />
Georg</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Eisen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-250643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Eisen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-250643</guid>
		<description>Actually, many of us working on microbes have talked about the possibility that they would photosynthesize using infrared light for many years.  We even referred to this as thermosynthesis.  So this is not that surprising per se, since microbes can pretty much do anything.  But it is cool that they found evidence for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, many of us working on microbes have talked about the possibility that they would photosynthesize using infrared light for many years.  We even referred to this as thermosynthesis.  So this is not that surprising per se, since microbes can pretty much do anything.  But it is cool that they found evidence for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Georg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/08/20/could-infrared-loving-chlorophyll-let-solar-cells-capture-more-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-250554</link>
		<dc:creator>Georg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=19193#comment-250554</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It absorbs light in the blue (465 nanometer wavelength) and red (665 nanometer wavelength) parts of the spectrum, and reflects the green light we see.&lt;/i&gt;

It reflects the near infrared as well, a very unique feature compared 
to most other dyes and pigments. (making plants bright in infrared 
night vision gadgets)
What about reflection in this new chlorophyll?
But very strange is that gap in the green of the &quot;normal&quot; chlorophylls : 
what is this good for? 
Making use of the green light would be easier than using red or infrared.
(after You mastered the use of blue_green) 
Georg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It absorbs light in the blue (465 nanometer wavelength) and red (665 nanometer wavelength) parts of the spectrum, and reflects the green light we see.</i></p>
<p>It reflects the near infrared as well, a very unique feature compared<br />
to most other dyes and pigments. (making plants bright in infrared<br />
night vision gadgets)<br />
What about reflection in this new chlorophyll?<br />
But very strange is that gap in the green of the &#8220;normal&#8221; chlorophylls :<br />
what is this good for?<br />
Making use of the green light would be easier than using red or infrared.<br />
(after You mastered the use of blue_green)<br />
Georg</p>
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