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	<title>Comments on: Did This Astronomer&#039;s Religion Cost Him a Job Opportunity?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/</link>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24358</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24358</guid>
		<description>Can you really have an idiot who thinks the Earth is 2000 years old researching astronomy, and tossing out all the data that doesn&#039;t support his crazy beliefs about his imaginary friends?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you really have an idiot who thinks the Earth is 2000 years old researching astronomy, and tossing out all the data that doesn&#8217;t support his crazy beliefs about his imaginary friends?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24357</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24357</guid>
		<description>Thought I would post this info to the article.  UK ended up settling for $125,000.  There are some quotes in this article that are particularly noteworthy.  It seems that UK found Gaskell to exemplify exactly their expectations for someone in the position he applied for, but several quotes from UK staff members clearly indicate that his religious views are what lost him the job.

http://www.aclj.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=4074</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought I would post this info to the article.  UK ended up settling for $125,000.  There are some quotes in this article that are particularly noteworthy.  It seems that UK found Gaskell to exemplify exactly their expectations for someone in the position he applied for, but several quotes from UK staff members clearly indicate that his religious views are what lost him the job.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aclj.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=4074" rel="nofollow">http://www.aclj.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=4074</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karl Johanson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24356</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Johanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24356</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think questioning someone&#039;s religion, or lack of belief is appropriate in a job interview. However, I think you might ask a potential biology prof, &quot;do you think evolution happens?&quot; and turn them down as unqualified if they answer &quot;no.&quot; Similarly, you might ask a potential astronomy prof if they think the universe is 6,000 years old and turn them down as unqualified if they answer &quot;yes,&quot; (especially if you want them to examine stars more than 6,000 light years away).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think questioning someone&#8217;s religion, or lack of belief is appropriate in a job interview. However, I think you might ask a potential biology prof, &#8220;do you think evolution happens?&#8221; and turn them down as unqualified if they answer &#8220;no.&#8221; Similarly, you might ask a potential astronomy prof if they think the universe is 6,000 years old and turn them down as unqualified if they answer &#8220;yes,&#8221; (especially if you want them to examine stars more than 6,000 light years away).</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24355</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24355</guid>
		<description>It is illegal to ask about religion in a job interview.  Period.  Atheists are far far more likely to be discriminated against than Christians, so as an atheist I am happy to see this practice challenged.  Discrimination is discrimination and it has no place in employment practices.  If the search committee worried about his beliefs interfering with his scientific objectivity, they could have asked about the age of the universe, the source of light, etc.  Those questions would be legit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is illegal to ask about religion in a job interview.  Period.  Atheists are far far more likely to be discriminated against than Christians, so as an atheist I am happy to see this practice challenged.  Discrimination is discrimination and it has no place in employment practices.  If the search committee worried about his beliefs interfering with his scientific objectivity, they could have asked about the age of the universe, the source of light, etc.  Those questions would be legit.</p>
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		<title>By: DennisBuller</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24354</link>
		<dc:creator>DennisBuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24354</guid>
		<description>OK Mr. Bakker,
    Lets skip the sexual identity, skin color, sex and disability aspects of this and focus on Religion.
     Obviously, there is a line that has t be drawn between discussing religion in the context of science and Preaching that religion.
     Professors have power; so the search committee has to be careful not to hire people who will abuse their position and compromise the integrity of the institution.
     You suggest that since Dr. Gaskell was open about his belief and wrote a paper trying to bridge pure science with Christian belief, &quot;There would be equal ground for worry&quot; as you put it.
     So if Professor Gaskell was Jewish (or Muslim) and wrote a paper to answer some questions his students asked about his area of research and the Torah (or Qua-ran),  this would also be &quot;ground for worry&quot;.
    The problem I have with all three situations is, in no way did the paper Dr. Gaskell wrote promote Christianity. It was a &quot;Bridge&quot; paper, trying to connect the Christian students belief (which they already have) with Dr. Gaskells class materials. He was doing what professors should do, educate and connect with his students.
    You could argue that by having a bridge paper just for Christians, and no other major religion, he is favoring Christianity. There may be a point to that. However, it would be hard for him to write a paper connecting his field of expertise with a religion he is not familiar with.....
    Ms. Shafer seemed to have a bug up her butt that Dr. Gaskell even mentioned religion in the context of his area of research.
    So in effect, if a professor even mentions religion in any professional manner, even to connect with his students, this is a black mark against them during the hiring process.
    In effect, I think the bar has been set so low by these academics concerning religion, that it constitutes not a healthy worry about professors proselytizing, but discrimination.
    Amazingly enough, there is a law against that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK Mr. Bakker,<br />
    Lets skip the sexual identity, skin color, sex and disability aspects of this and focus on Religion.<br />
     Obviously, there is a line that has t be drawn between discussing religion in the context of science and Preaching that religion.<br />
     Professors have power; so the search committee has to be careful not to hire people who will abuse their position and compromise the integrity of the institution.<br />
     You suggest that since Dr. Gaskell was open about his belief and wrote a paper trying to bridge pure science with Christian belief, &#8220;There would be equal ground for worry&#8221; as you put it.<br />
     So if Professor Gaskell was Jewish (or Muslim) and wrote a paper to answer some questions his students asked about his area of research and the Torah (or Qua-ran),  this would also be &#8220;ground for worry&#8221;.<br />
    The problem I have with all three situations is, in no way did the paper Dr. Gaskell wrote promote Christianity. It was a &#8220;Bridge&#8221; paper, trying to connect the Christian students belief (which they already have) with Dr. Gaskells class materials. He was doing what professors should do, educate and connect with his students.<br />
    You could argue that by having a bridge paper just for Christians, and no other major religion, he is favoring Christianity. There may be a point to that. However, it would be hard for him to write a paper connecting his field of expertise with a religion he is not familiar with&#8230;..<br />
    Ms. Shafer seemed to have a bug up her butt that Dr. Gaskell even mentioned religion in the context of his area of research.<br />
    So in effect, if a professor even mentions religion in any professional manner, even to connect with his students, this is a black mark against them during the hiring process.<br />
    In effect, I think the bar has been set so low by these academics concerning religion, that it constitutes not a healthy worry about professors proselytizing, but discrimination.<br />
    Amazingly enough, there is a law against that.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert Bakker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24353</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert Bakker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 09:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24353</guid>
		<description>Mr. Buller, maybe I was not clear enough.

The remark &quot;potentially evangelical&quot; in the context in which it was used and as it was explained in the disposition was not in the first place about potentially being something but about potentially doing something, namely - doing - evangelizing. The first thing - being something - would let itself perhaps compare in a conceivable theoretically idealized scheme with being something other like (another assumed religious identity) Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist, Winti-believer or whatever. If however in equal circumstances there would be a reasonable suspicion in either of these hypothetical cases of using their position and the weight of their authority that comes with it to do something, namely proselytizing their favoured set of beliefs and dogmas then there would be equal ground for worry.

So if you are honest you compare doing something with doing something belonging to the same category of acts (here - potentially - proselytizing of some kind of religion or sect, of convincing) and compare being something with being something belonging to the same category of things (here belonging to a group of followers of some religion or sect, of having a conviction.)

But gays, people with a relative abundance of melanin, people with red hair, deaf people, people with a clubfoot and so on belong to a different category, of being endowed with a set of biological facts or genetic make up or whatever, not to a category of - preferential - convictions.

The important thing about this with respect to science and teaching of science is the matter of interpretation of favoured (holy) scripture. Does one take from it that religious texts make or are a source of truth claims about the world (revelations) or not.

In both of these cases then there is a major conflict with science. If not, if one accepts that religious texts bear no a priori relevance to truth claims about the real world, there need not be. Then in Gould-speak the magisterium of science and the magisterium of religion could be kept separated. This however is -  a few declared exceptions here and there excluded - not the way it works in real life or ever will and is why Universities are right to very carefully guard the separation of science and religiously motivated special pleading and why invoking (hypersensitive) political correctness as almost always is so misguided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Buller, maybe I was not clear enough.</p>
<p>The remark &#8220;potentially evangelical&#8221; in the context in which it was used and as it was explained in the disposition was not in the first place about potentially being something but about potentially doing something, namely &#8211; doing &#8211; evangelizing. The first thing &#8211; being something &#8211; would let itself perhaps compare in a conceivable theoretically idealized scheme with being something other like (another assumed religious identity) Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist, Winti-believer or whatever. If however in equal circumstances there would be a reasonable suspicion in either of these hypothetical cases of using their position and the weight of their authority that comes with it to do something, namely proselytizing their favoured set of beliefs and dogmas then there would be equal ground for worry.</p>
<p>So if you are honest you compare doing something with doing something belonging to the same category of acts (here &#8211; potentially &#8211; proselytizing of some kind of religion or sect, of convincing) and compare being something with being something belonging to the same category of things (here belonging to a group of followers of some religion or sect, of having a conviction.)</p>
<p>But gays, people with a relative abundance of melanin, people with red hair, deaf people, people with a clubfoot and so on belong to a different category, of being endowed with a set of biological facts or genetic make up or whatever, not to a category of &#8211; preferential &#8211; convictions.</p>
<p>The important thing about this with respect to science and teaching of science is the matter of interpretation of favoured (holy) scripture. Does one take from it that religious texts make or are a source of truth claims about the world (revelations) or not.</p>
<p>In both of these cases then there is a major conflict with science. If not, if one accepts that religious texts bear no a priori relevance to truth claims about the real world, there need not be. Then in Gould-speak the magisterium of science and the magisterium of religion could be kept separated. This however is &#8211;  a few declared exceptions here and there excluded &#8211; not the way it works in real life or ever will and is why Universities are right to very carefully guard the separation of science and religiously motivated special pleading and why invoking (hypersensitive) political correctness as almost always is so misguided.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel J. Andrews</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24352</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel J. Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2010 03:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24352</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Science is fundamentally opposed to a “spiritual approach.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would disagree unless I&#039;m misreading your statement. Science deals with measurable quantifiable items. It doesn&#039;t deal with the supernatural or spiritual which can&#039;t be measured or quantified so just leaves it out of any equations/theories/hypotheses.

Science is the best tool kit we have for understanding the physical world. Using science to look at the claims* of something that can&#039;t be detected in the first place is like using religious philosophy to understand how the material world operates (and we all know how well that latter attempt worked out). Different tool kits, different purposes, not in opposition.

On topic, Ms. Shafer&#039;s remark was very ill-considered. &quot;Potentially evangelical&quot;? That&#039;s the sort of comment that gives a lawsuit traction.

*If those claims involved something in the physical world then science applies. E.g. &quot;prayer heals people&quot; can be examined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Science is fundamentally opposed to a “spiritual approach.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I would disagree unless I&#8217;m misreading your statement. Science deals with measurable quantifiable items. It doesn&#8217;t deal with the supernatural or spiritual which can&#8217;t be measured or quantified so just leaves it out of any equations/theories/hypotheses.</p>
<p>Science is the best tool kit we have for understanding the physical world. Using science to look at the claims* of something that can&#8217;t be detected in the first place is like using religious philosophy to understand how the material world operates (and we all know how well that latter attempt worked out). Different tool kits, different purposes, not in opposition.</p>
<p>On topic, Ms. Shafer&#8217;s remark was very ill-considered. &#8220;Potentially evangelical&#8221;? That&#8217;s the sort of comment that gives a lawsuit traction.</p>
<p>*If those claims involved something in the physical world then science applies. E.g. &#8220;prayer heals people&#8221; can be examined.</p>
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		<title>By: DennisBuller</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24351</link>
		<dc:creator>DennisBuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2010 22:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24351</guid>
		<description>Mr. Bakker,
   I just scanned Dr. Gaskell&#039;s  MODERN ASTRONOMY, THE BIBLE, AND CREATION paper. I have also read Ms. Shafer&#039;s testimony.
   I found it to be a well crafted paper mainly supporting the idea that science and the Cristian faith can coexist without mush issue.
   A large first section was dedicated to pointing out famous scientist who had faith and quoting some of them about the issue.
  One of the last paragraphs outlines what the scientifically accepted age of the universe as we know today.
   It seemed to be a paper aimed at reconciling many issues students had raised in his class (he actually says this in the paper).
  After reading it, I find it vary hard to see what Ms. Shafer was talking about when she decries that he is &quot;potentially evangelical&quot;. I do not see &quot; Dr. Gaskel sprouting non-scientific nonsense&quot; as you so put it being a concern.
   Lets face it, when it comes to hiring, the committee cannot ask Age; Ethnic background; Religious belief; Pregnancy condition;  and a host of other non-job related issue.
   They cannot even ask women if they are interested in the faculty day care.
   That is a cleaver way to find out of a woman is looking to take time off for kids......
   So while you maintain it s being taken out of context for judicial and ideological reasons, I feel the comment in the context of a job search are right on the nose.
   Ms Shafer was upset that Dr. Gaskell even talked about the bible in the context of his teaching and disproved.
   So I go back to the &quot;suggestive comparison&quot; that you think is fallacious.
  If a professor talked about being gay or being a person of color in the context of his/her teaching; then applied to a job;  and Ms. Shafer did not like them due to this, would that not be inappropriate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Bakker,<br />
   I just scanned Dr. Gaskell&#8217;s  MODERN ASTRONOMY, THE BIBLE, AND CREATION paper. I have also read Ms. Shafer&#8217;s testimony.<br />
   I found it to be a well crafted paper mainly supporting the idea that science and the Cristian faith can coexist without mush issue.<br />
   A large first section was dedicated to pointing out famous scientist who had faith and quoting some of them about the issue.<br />
  One of the last paragraphs outlines what the scientifically accepted age of the universe as we know today.<br />
   It seemed to be a paper aimed at reconciling many issues students had raised in his class (he actually says this in the paper).<br />
  After reading it, I find it vary hard to see what Ms. Shafer was talking about when she decries that he is &#8220;potentially evangelical&#8221;. I do not see &#8221; Dr. Gaskel sprouting non-scientific nonsense&#8221; as you so put it being a concern.<br />
   Lets face it, when it comes to hiring, the committee cannot ask Age; Ethnic background; Religious belief; Pregnancy condition;  and a host of other non-job related issue.<br />
   They cannot even ask women if they are interested in the faculty day care.<br />
   That is a cleaver way to find out of a woman is looking to take time off for kids&#8230;&#8230;<br />
   So while you maintain it s being taken out of context for judicial and ideological reasons, I feel the comment in the context of a job search are right on the nose.<br />
   Ms Shafer was upset that Dr. Gaskell even talked about the bible in the context of his teaching and disproved.<br />
   So I go back to the &#8220;suggestive comparison&#8221; that you think is fallacious.<br />
  If a professor talked about being gay or being a person of color in the context of his/her teaching; then applied to a job;  and Ms. Shafer did not like them due to this, would that not be inappropriate?</p>
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		<title>By: Albert Bakker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24350</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert Bakker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24350</guid>
		<description>#31 - There is no need to pick at those words, the deposition of Ms Shafer (page 24-27) linked to in the article actually explains what was meant by the remark  &quot;potentially evangelical&quot; quite clearly, and the grounds for worries about this: Dr. Gaskel sprouting non-scientific nonsense ( in service of favoured religious dogmas) on their University website as he did in Nebraska.

Those suggestive comparisons, like those in an earlier comment, might have been cleverly crafted to appeal to a sense of hypocrisy or something but actually they belong to different categories (which in short means the argument is fallacious.) And in the sense in which the remark was actually used and carried it&#039;s meaning, they don&#039;t even superficially make sense.

Was it perhaps undiplomatic to put it that way (I mean diplomatic language in the sense in which we were accustomed to perceive of it in the pre-Wikileaks era) in a personal e-mail? Well perhaps, if one has to take into account all the ways ones out of context quotes can be used for judicial or ideological purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#31 &#8211; There is no need to pick at those words, the deposition of Ms Shafer (page 24-27) linked to in the article actually explains what was meant by the remark  &#8220;potentially evangelical&#8221; quite clearly, and the grounds for worries about this: Dr. Gaskel sprouting non-scientific nonsense ( in service of favoured religious dogmas) on their University website as he did in Nebraska.</p>
<p>Those suggestive comparisons, like those in an earlier comment, might have been cleverly crafted to appeal to a sense of hypocrisy or something but actually they belong to different categories (which in short means the argument is fallacious.) And in the sense in which the remark was actually used and carried it&#8217;s meaning, they don&#8217;t even superficially make sense.</p>
<p>Was it perhaps undiplomatic to put it that way (I mean diplomatic language in the sense in which we were accustomed to perceive of it in the pre-Wikileaks era) in a personal e-mail? Well perhaps, if one has to take into account all the ways ones out of context quotes can be used for judicial or ideological purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: DennisBuller</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/20/did-this-astronomers-religion-cost-him-a-job-opportunity/#comment-24349</link>
		<dc:creator>DennisBuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=24004#comment-24349</guid>
		<description>Mr. Andrew says:

&quot;There is no case to answer. That email merely notes that he’s “potentially evangelical” – which means they’re concerned that he’ll be evangelising, NOT that he’s religious per se.&quot;

   So if an email went out saying that Dr. Gaskell &quot;potentially evangelical&quot; about being gay there would be no discrimination case either?
   How about an an email saying that Dr. Gaskell is &quot;potentially Evangelical&quot; about being Muslim or Jewish?

    Granted, when hiring someone, the quality of their work must be looked at.
    If the people in the hiring committee feel the quality of the work is not good, that person should not be hired.
    Having arguments over email on the persons religious beliefs is the height of stupidity and hubris.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Andrew says:</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no case to answer. That email merely notes that he’s “potentially evangelical” – which means they’re concerned that he’ll be evangelising, NOT that he’s religious per se.&#8221;</p>
<p>   So if an email went out saying that Dr. Gaskell &#8220;potentially evangelical&#8221; about being gay there would be no discrimination case either?<br />
   How about an an email saying that Dr. Gaskell is &#8220;potentially Evangelical&#8221; about being Muslim or Jewish?</p>
<p>    Granted, when hiring someone, the quality of their work must be looked at.<br />
    If the people in the hiring committee feel the quality of the work is not good, that person should not be hired.<br />
    Having arguments over email on the persons religious beliefs is the height of stupidity and hubris.</p>
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