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	<title>Comments on: Cooler-Than-Steam Brown Dwarf Blurs The Line Between Star &amp; Planet</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/</link>
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		<title>By: teh winrar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25680</link>
		<dc:creator>teh winrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2011 05:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25680</guid>
		<description>STAR FAIL!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>STAR FAIL!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Messier Tidy Upper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25679</link>
		<dc:creator>Messier Tidy Upper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2011 06:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25679</guid>
		<description>Cool news -  &amp; write-up here. Thanks! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool news &#8211;  &amp; write-up here. Thanks! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25678</link>
		<dc:creator>Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25678</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the great comments. I think this isn&#039;t the last we&#039;ve heard of this version of the what&#039;s-a-planet/star discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the great comments. I think this isn&#8217;t the last we&#8217;ve heard of this version of the what&#8217;s-a-planet/star discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25677</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25677</guid>
		<description>Another point of ambiguity in the planet/star definition divide has to do with the formation process of the object. Stars form from the gravitational collapse of gas clouds. Planets form from the debris ring (protoplanetary disc) that forms around a protostar.

Brown dwarfs form the same way stars do. But it is not known if there is a theoretical limit to how small an object can form in such a fashion. So it may be possible for cloud collapse to form even smaller objects, maybe even as small as Jupiter. This particular dwarf is in a binary with another brown dwarf, which means you could argue to call it a planet, (it orbits a star, and even on the high end of the mass estimate, there are known planets around that mass. However, the dynamics of its orbit suggest that it and its partner formed like binary stars, each from a cloud collapse, rather than as star-planet pairs do). But what if you found a lone dwarf of this mass range? Then what should we call it?

This is basically the other end (big rather than small) of the planet definition controversy that reclassified Pluto. Stars had previously been pretty definitely defined by hydrogen fusion (and it&#039;s easy to determine if a star is fusing hydrogen, because that&#039;s what makes it shine). Brown dwarfs sort of shred this definition, since they don&#039;t fuse hydrogen. And they don&#039;t necessarily fuse deuterium either, they only &lt;i&gt;potentially&lt;/i&gt; fuse deuterium, and only in the early phases of their existence. And the mass cut-off is also theoretical, as there are other factors that affect the ability to fuse deuterium. The 13J limit is &lt;i&gt;theoretical&lt;/i&gt; only, as in something bigger &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; be able to fuse deuterium, but might not, depending on circumstances. You can have two 13J brown dwarfs of identical mass, but one will be fusing deuterium, and one won&#039;t be. And a brown dwarf that is sufficiently old (and this age, compared to the age of other stars, can be actually quite young) won&#039;t be fusing deuterium because it&#039;s used up all it&#039;s fusable deuterium. (And with increasing age, less and less infrared radiation.)

Finally, large planets &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; can radiate infrared (that is not reflected starlight). Even Jupiter, cold as it is, radiates more infrared than it should from solar reflection alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point of ambiguity in the planet/star definition divide has to do with the formation process of the object. Stars form from the gravitational collapse of gas clouds. Planets form from the debris ring (protoplanetary disc) that forms around a protostar.</p>
<p>Brown dwarfs form the same way stars do. But it is not known if there is a theoretical limit to how small an object can form in such a fashion. So it may be possible for cloud collapse to form even smaller objects, maybe even as small as Jupiter. This particular dwarf is in a binary with another brown dwarf, which means you could argue to call it a planet, (it orbits a star, and even on the high end of the mass estimate, there are known planets around that mass. However, the dynamics of its orbit suggest that it and its partner formed like binary stars, each from a cloud collapse, rather than as star-planet pairs do). But what if you found a lone dwarf of this mass range? Then what should we call it?</p>
<p>This is basically the other end (big rather than small) of the planet definition controversy that reclassified Pluto. Stars had previously been pretty definitely defined by hydrogen fusion (and it&#8217;s easy to determine if a star is fusing hydrogen, because that&#8217;s what makes it shine). Brown dwarfs sort of shred this definition, since they don&#8217;t fuse hydrogen. And they don&#8217;t necessarily fuse deuterium either, they only <i>potentially</i> fuse deuterium, and only in the early phases of their existence. And the mass cut-off is also theoretical, as there are other factors that affect the ability to fuse deuterium. The 13J limit is <i>theoretical</i> only, as in something bigger <i>may</i> be able to fuse deuterium, but might not, depending on circumstances. You can have two 13J brown dwarfs of identical mass, but one will be fusing deuterium, and one won&#8217;t be. And a brown dwarf that is sufficiently old (and this age, compared to the age of other stars, can be actually quite young) won&#8217;t be fusing deuterium because it&#8217;s used up all it&#8217;s fusable deuterium. (And with increasing age, less and less infrared radiation.)</p>
<p>Finally, large planets <i>also</i> can radiate infrared (that is not reflected starlight). Even Jupiter, cold as it is, radiates more infrared than it should from solar reflection alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Demian W</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25676</link>
		<dc:creator>Demian W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25676</guid>
		<description>What I find fascinating about this article is the tangible examples that are becoming avaliable for us to even measure in the first place.  I for one commend the search for precision, however there is a concept that we all must remember,  a new discovery can change everything.  Even if it just adjusts our definition of what is a star and a planet is or it forces us to create an entirely new classification, we will never be able to move forward in our understanding without tangible examples with which we can measure.  I for one would like to congradulate the astronomers working at the Keck II telescope on Mauna Kea who found this unprecedented and previously theoretical brown dwarf for us to argue about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find fascinating about this article is the tangible examples that are becoming avaliable for us to even measure in the first place.  I for one commend the search for precision, however there is a concept that we all must remember,  a new discovery can change everything.  Even if it just adjusts our definition of what is a star and a planet is or it forces us to create an entirely new classification, we will never be able to move forward in our understanding without tangible examples with which we can measure.  I for one would like to congradulate the astronomers working at the Keck II telescope on Mauna Kea who found this unprecedented and previously theoretical brown dwarf for us to argue about.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph G</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25675</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25675</guid>
		<description>@#8 Flonkbob: &lt;i&gt;That’s the problem with trying to produce discrete definitions for objects that exist on a continuum. I’m sure that over time we will find every possible state between ultra-hot blue stars and barely warm dwarfs, and a definition to cover it all is not going to be easy to develop.
&lt;/i&gt;

Very well put!  Ultimately, even though we like to have clear dividing lines for everything, large planets and small stars are both just blobs of matter held together by their own gravity.  They&#039;re all heated by gravitational collapse for an extended period of time.  If they&#039;re massive enough, they begin &lt;i&gt;stable&lt;/i&gt; fusion at some point.  But even fusion is dependent on temperature, which may drop over time as the energy of gravitational collapse is used up and equilibrium is reached.
And what if you drop an asteroid on a very very very large planet that&#039;s on the cusp of deuterium fusion - does it instantly become a brown dwarf?  What if it MIGHT have fused deuterium for a bit if the asteroid had hit it earlier?  At some point the universe just plain defies our attempts to pigeonhole its inhabitants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@#8 Flonkbob: <i>That’s the problem with trying to produce discrete definitions for objects that exist on a continuum. I’m sure that over time we will find every possible state between ultra-hot blue stars and barely warm dwarfs, and a definition to cover it all is not going to be easy to develop.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Very well put!  Ultimately, even though we like to have clear dividing lines for everything, large planets and small stars are both just blobs of matter held together by their own gravity.  They&#8217;re all heated by gravitational collapse for an extended period of time.  If they&#8217;re massive enough, they begin <i>stable</i> fusion at some point.  But even fusion is dependent on temperature, which may drop over time as the energy of gravitational collapse is used up and equilibrium is reached.<br />
And what if you drop an asteroid on a very very very large planet that&#8217;s on the cusp of deuterium fusion &#8211; does it instantly become a brown dwarf?  What if it MIGHT have fused deuterium for a bit if the asteroid had hit it earlier?  At some point the universe just plain defies our attempts to pigeonhole its inhabitants.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25674</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25674</guid>
		<description>@Flonkbob. I&#039;m old enough to remember how to use a slide rule. If more people had the skill they would be less inclined to seek the absolute precision that digital technology has led them to expect in everything. Fuzziness IS!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Flonkbob. I&#8217;m old enough to remember how to use a slide rule. If more people had the skill they would be less inclined to seek the absolute precision that digital technology has led them to expect in everything. Fuzziness IS!</p>
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		<title>By: Neon Sequitur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25673</link>
		<dc:creator>Neon Sequitur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25673</guid>
		<description>It looks as if the only real ambiguity here is that of the object&#039;s mass: between 6 and 15 Jupiter masses? No wonder its status is uncertain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks as if the only real ambiguity here is that of the object&#8217;s mass: between 6 and 15 Jupiter masses? No wonder its status is uncertain.</p>
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		<title>By: Flonkbob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25672</link>
		<dc:creator>Flonkbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25672</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s the problem with trying to produce discrete definitions for objects that exist on a continuum.  I&#039;m sure that over time we will find every possible state between ultra-hot blue stars and barely warm dwarfs, and a definition to cover it all is not going to be easy to develop.

&quot;It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with the degree of precision that the nature of the subject admits, and not to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible.&quot; &lt;-- Badly Quoted Brilliant Greek Dude (name slips my mind)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the problem with trying to produce discrete definitions for objects that exist on a continuum.  I&#8217;m sure that over time we will find every possible state between ultra-hot blue stars and barely warm dwarfs, and a definition to cover it all is not going to be easy to develop.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with the degree of precision that the nature of the subject admits, and not to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible.&#8221; &lt;&#8211; Badly Quoted Brilliant Greek Dude (name slips my mind)</p>
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		<title>By: Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/10/cooler-than-steam-brown-dwarf-blurs-the-line-between-star-planet/#comment-25671</link>
		<dc:creator>Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27223#comment-25671</guid>
		<description>@Aaron: That&#039;s fine, a rational way to draw the distinction, but that doesn&#039;t cover all of the differences that come to mind (and that have been measured) when people think about stars and planets. For instance, chemical separation into layers and formation of clouds both seem to be things that planets do, but the cut-offs for those won&#039;t be at exactly the same place as for fusion of deuterium (i.e., 13 Jupiter masses). It&#039;s fine if you want to use just the fusion cut-off, but you might end up with &quot;planets&quot; with star-style convection and/or stars with clouds---which would certainly be controversial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aaron: That&#8217;s fine, a rational way to draw the distinction, but that doesn&#8217;t cover all of the differences that come to mind (and that have been measured) when people think about stars and planets. For instance, chemical separation into layers and formation of clouds both seem to be things that planets do, but the cut-offs for those won&#8217;t be at exactly the same place as for fusion of deuterium (i.e., 13 Jupiter masses). It&#8217;s fine if you want to use just the fusion cut-off, but you might end up with &#8220;planets&#8221; with star-style convection and/or stars with clouds&#8212;which would certainly be controversial.</p>
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