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	<title>Comments on: Scientist Smackdown: When Did Europeans First Harness Fire?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/</link>
	<description>80beats is DISCOVER&#039;s news aggregator, weaving together the choicest tidbits from the best articles covering the day&#039;s most compelling topics.</description>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-2048830</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-2048830</guid>
		<description>The notion that a small gut requires cooking is simply nonsense. Have any of these brainiacs ever looked at the gut of a cat? Meat is fully edible without a complex gut, and it is known from their coprolites that Neanderthals ate almost nothing but meat.

What cooking does is to allow the digestion of complex carbohydrates with a carnivore&#039;s gut. It is effectively partial digestion. A raw potato is almost indigestible but a cooked one goes down fine. Cheap cat food is based on grains and other plants. Cats can eat it for the same reason - it&#039;s been partially digested already. Whether it&#039;s good for them is another question, of course.

Also, the idea that living in a cold climate requires fire is simply wrong. People can spend days, even weeks, without fire in the harshest climates. What it actually requires is not fire but rather clothes and some form of shelter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The notion that a small gut requires cooking is simply nonsense. Have any of these brainiacs ever looked at the gut of a cat? Meat is fully edible without a complex gut, and it is known from their coprolites that Neanderthals ate almost nothing but meat.</p>
<p>What cooking does is to allow the digestion of complex carbohydrates with a carnivore&#8217;s gut. It is effectively partial digestion. A raw potato is almost indigestible but a cooked one goes down fine. Cheap cat food is based on grains and other plants. Cats can eat it for the same reason &#8211; it&#8217;s been partially digested already. Whether it&#8217;s good for them is another question, of course.</p>
<p>Also, the idea that living in a cold climate requires fire is simply wrong. People can spend days, even weeks, without fire in the harshest climates. What it actually requires is not fire but rather clothes and some form of shelter.</p>
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		<title>By: Aly</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-736182</link>
		<dc:creator>Aly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 22:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-736182</guid>
		<description>Why cant it be that the &quot;evolution&quot; actually happened at the level of our gut bacteria?  Why does it have to be &quot;us&quot; that got better at cooking and extracting calories from food, why could it not be the bacteria that made the leap?  

I think we need to be a little more realistic about what &quot;we&quot; are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why cant it be that the &#8220;evolution&#8221; actually happened at the level of our gut bacteria?  Why does it have to be &#8220;us&#8221; that got better at cooking and extracting calories from food, why could it not be the bacteria that made the leap?  </p>
<p>I think we need to be a little more realistic about what &#8220;we&#8221; are.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Too</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-731314</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-731314</guid>
		<description>@12. E. Manhattan,

Thank you, you captured my objection perfectly.  And then shared it perhaps more clearly than I.

The study authors can plausibly claim there is no &lt;i&gt;definitive proof&lt;/i&gt; of intentional fire use in Europe prior to 400,000 BCE.  Subject to peer review and criticism of course.  They cannot claim there is no intentional fire use prior to that date however.

Those are 2 different claims with 2 different standards of evidence required.  The first assertion merely states that fire use prior to 400,000 BCE is unknown.  The second assertion states that fire was not used and controlled.

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@12. E. Manhattan,</p>
<p>Thank you, you captured my objection perfectly.  And then shared it perhaps more clearly than I.</p>
<p>The study authors can plausibly claim there is no <i>definitive proof</i> of intentional fire use in Europe prior to 400,000 BCE.  Subject to peer review and criticism of course.  They cannot claim there is no intentional fire use prior to that date however.</p>
<p>Those are 2 different claims with 2 different standards of evidence required.  The first assertion merely states that fire use prior to 400,000 BCE is unknown.  The second assertion states that fire was not used and controlled.</p>
<p>Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.</p>
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		<title>By: E. Manhattan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-730702</link>
		<dc:creator>E. Manhattan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-730702</guid>
		<description>Researchers often seem to be able to run excellent, rigorous studies - and then come to conclusions completely unsupported by their excellent, rigorous studies.

What this study found was that there are currently no known definite, unquestionable examples of human cooking before 400,000 years ago in Europe.  Some suspected examples, but no definite examples.  Well done!  No one can argue with it.

Great study.  Then the authors left science behind and claimed to have shown that no cooking existed in Europe before 400,000 years ago, which they &quot;had suspected&quot; was true before they ran their study.  Well, no.  They only showed that no one has yet found any unquestionable examples. 

It&#039;d be nice if more scientists followed scientific rules of evidence, and refrained from coming to conclusions without facts to support them, wouldn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Researchers often seem to be able to run excellent, rigorous studies &#8211; and then come to conclusions completely unsupported by their excellent, rigorous studies.</p>
<p>What this study found was that there are currently no known definite, unquestionable examples of human cooking before 400,000 years ago in Europe.  Some suspected examples, but no definite examples.  Well done!  No one can argue with it.</p>
<p>Great study.  Then the authors left science behind and claimed to have shown that no cooking existed in Europe before 400,000 years ago, which they &#8220;had suspected&#8221; was true before they ran their study.  Well, no.  They only showed that no one has yet found any unquestionable examples. </p>
<p>It&#8217;d be nice if more scientists followed scientific rules of evidence, and refrained from coming to conclusions without facts to support them, wouldn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: bob sykes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-727236</link>
		<dc:creator>bob sykes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-727236</guid>
		<description>Who are these &quot;humans&quot;? From the timing, I would assume these are neanderthals. They certainly aren&#039;t early H. sapiens. Or are we talking H. erectus? Didn&#039;t erectus have fire 800,000 years ago or more?

The use of &quot;Europeans&quot; here is misleading in the extreme. These guys are not French haute-cuisine chefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who are these &#8220;humans&#8221;? From the timing, I would assume these are neanderthals. They certainly aren&#8217;t early H. sapiens. Or are we talking H. erectus? Didn&#8217;t erectus have fire 800,000 years ago or more?</p>
<p>The use of &#8220;Europeans&#8221; here is misleading in the extreme. These guys are not French haute-cuisine chefs.</p>
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		<title>By: HI55</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-726541</link>
		<dc:creator>HI55</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Mar 2011 07:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-726541</guid>
		<description>Smackdown...really? Is that necessary?

Hey, kids! This is science, but it&#039;s just like pro wrestling! Just wait &#039;til they start smashing things over each other&#039;s heads, they&#039;ll get this argument settled!
Vote for your favorite scientist, and you might win a trip to England. For a cookout!

Perhaps &quot;Scientists Disagree...&quot; would get the message across while retaining some sense of dignity for yourselves, and for us, and for science.
I expected better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smackdown&#8230;really? Is that necessary?</p>
<p>Hey, kids! This is science, but it&#8217;s just like pro wrestling! Just wait &#8217;til they start smashing things over each other&#8217;s heads, they&#8217;ll get this argument settled!<br />
Vote for your favorite scientist, and you might win a trip to England. For a cookout!</p>
<p>Perhaps &#8220;Scientists Disagree&#8230;&#8221; would get the message across while retaining some sense of dignity for yourselves, and for us, and for science.<br />
I expected better.</p>
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		<title>By: NotStradamus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-721668</link>
		<dc:creator>NotStradamus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-721668</guid>
		<description>Silly scientists. Everyone knows that Prometheus stole fire from Zeus to give to humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silly scientists. Everyone knows that Prometheus stole fire from Zeus to give to humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Whomever1</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-720230</link>
		<dc:creator>Whomever1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 04:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-720230</guid>
		<description>&quot;… Try to go to England now without warm clothes.”  And why are you saying they didn&#039;t have warm clothes 1,000,000 years ago?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;… Try to go to England now without warm clothes.”  And why are you saying they didn&#8217;t have warm clothes 1,000,000 years ago?</p>
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		<title>By: Heather Spoonheim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-719187</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather Spoonheim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-719187</guid>
		<description>I agree with John Lerch.  It may be likely that the first Europeans simply didn&#039;t light fires within their caves.  One of the earliest sites, the Beeches Pit site in England, is described as revealing fireplaces.  Although the fireplaces are not described and may be very simple, this does suggest some technique of fire-safety that could have only developed after an extended period of fire usage.

As far as the conflicting biological evidence - is it possible that sun drying meat could denature the proteins equally well to cooking over fire?  If game animals were abundant to the early Europeans, perhaps they dried more meat than they cooked, thus leaving less evidence of fire behind while still evolving as one might expect on a diet of cooked meat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with John Lerch.  It may be likely that the first Europeans simply didn&#8217;t light fires within their caves.  One of the earliest sites, the Beeches Pit site in England, is described as revealing fireplaces.  Although the fireplaces are not described and may be very simple, this does suggest some technique of fire-safety that could have only developed after an extended period of fire usage.</p>
<p>As far as the conflicting biological evidence &#8211; is it possible that sun drying meat could denature the proteins equally well to cooking over fire?  If game animals were abundant to the early Europeans, perhaps they dried more meat than they cooked, thus leaving less evidence of fire behind while still evolving as one might expect on a diet of cooked meat.</p>
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		<title>By: Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-716419</link>
		<dc:creator>Amos Zeeberg (Discover Web Editor)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-716419</guid>
		<description>@Brian and @John: Obviously the researchers didn&#039;t just summarily ignore those sites because they didn&#039;t like them---they concluded there wasn&#039;t good enough evidence that there had been purposeful use of fire at those sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian and @John: Obviously the researchers didn&#8217;t just summarily ignore those sites because they didn&#8217;t like them&#8212;they concluded there wasn&#8217;t good enough evidence that there had been purposeful use of fire at those sites.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Bremner</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-716158</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Bremner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-716158</guid>
		<description>Great, generally when scientists start pointing to different data sets and calling each other names, a lot of pointed research is started and a lot of new things get discovered.  Keep the arguments going, we will all learn from them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great, generally when scientists start pointing to different data sets and calling each other names, a lot of pointed research is started and a lot of new things get discovered.  Keep the arguments going, we will all learn from them.</p>
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		<title>By: John Lerch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-715279</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lerch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-715279</guid>
		<description>I agree with LG; I have my doubts about assertions that European hominids only travelled a few dozen miles in their lives before HSapiens Modern appeared.
And I think that BT is misreading the Discovery blogger (tho it&#039;s the bloggers fault).  I think &quot;throw out&quot; means they didn&#039;t find adequate evidence that the humans had fires in their homes at the time.  
I have often wondered how people survived in caves with a fire going and no chimney.  So maybe the resolution of the conundrum is that early Europeans used fire JUST NOT WHERE THE CO WOULD KILL THEM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with LG; I have my doubts about assertions that European hominids only travelled a few dozen miles in their lives before HSapiens Modern appeared.<br />
And I think that BT is misreading the Discovery blogger (tho it&#8217;s the bloggers fault).  I think &#8220;throw out&#8221; means they didn&#8217;t find adequate evidence that the humans had fires in their homes at the time.<br />
I have often wondered how people survived in caves with a fire going and no chimney.  So maybe the resolution of the conundrum is that early Europeans used fire JUST NOT WHERE THE CO WOULD KILL THEM.</p>
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		<title>By: linda george</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-715230</link>
		<dc:creator>linda george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-715230</guid>
		<description>Maybe they spent the winters in Spain!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe they spent the winters in Spain!</p>
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		<title>By: Glidingpig</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-714259</link>
		<dc:creator>Glidingpig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 03:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-714259</guid>
		<description>I am a firm believer that we did almost everything a lot earlier that we think. Colonized the Americas, had agriculture, native American culture(ie cities). Lack of evidence is not proof against, just a lack of support for.

Humans have been way more smart that we have given them credit for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a firm believer that we did almost everything a lot earlier that we think. Colonized the Americas, had agriculture, native American culture(ie cities). Lack of evidence is not proof against, just a lack of support for.</p>
<p>Humans have been way more smart that we have given them credit for.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Too</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/03/15/scientist-smackdown-when-did-europeans-first-harness-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-713925</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 01:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=27336#comment-713925</guid>
		<description>The logic flaw here is obvious.  Merely because the study authors did not find any evidence, does not mean that it does not exist.

Also, it seems striking that they &quot;...threw out 19 potential fire sites...&quot; and categorically discounted the transmissability of the Israeli fire use much earlier.  Knowledge is the lightest and most portable possession of all.

Hey, they might be right.  However it seems a logic leap too far to declare that there was no European use of fire prior to 400,000 BCE.  Not based upon this study!

It&#039;s not good enough to say there&#039;s no evidence.  The archeological record is notoriously sparse and equivocal.  To reach their conclusion, they&#039;d have to to generate their own positive evidence that there COULD NOT BE purposeful use of fire.  Show statistical analysis of bones demonstrating no consumption of cooked food (as an example; I&#039;m not sure this is possible).  Over a long period of time and over a wide geographical area.  Otherwise they are just blowing academic smoke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The logic flaw here is obvious.  Merely because the study authors did not find any evidence, does not mean that it does not exist.</p>
<p>Also, it seems striking that they &#8220;&#8230;threw out 19 potential fire sites&#8230;&#8221; and categorically discounted the transmissability of the Israeli fire use much earlier.  Knowledge is the lightest and most portable possession of all.</p>
<p>Hey, they might be right.  However it seems a logic leap too far to declare that there was no European use of fire prior to 400,000 BCE.  Not based upon this study!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not good enough to say there&#8217;s no evidence.  The archeological record is notoriously sparse and equivocal.  To reach their conclusion, they&#8217;d have to to generate their own positive evidence that there COULD NOT BE purposeful use of fire.  Show statistical analysis of bones demonstrating no consumption of cooked food (as an example; I&#8217;m not sure this is possible).  Over a long period of time and over a wide geographical area.  Otherwise they are just blowing academic smoke.</p>
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