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	<title>Comments on: Is Grammar More Cultural Than Universal? Study Challenges Chomsky’s Theory</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/</link>
	<description>80beats is DISCOVER&#039;s news aggregator, weaving together the choicest tidbits from the best articles covering the day&#039;s most compelling topics.</description>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-1111935</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-1111935</guid>
		<description>What, exactly, defines a &quot;common cultural background&quot; for the authors of the study?  The &quot;common culture&quot; they seem to find have no more in common than say, those of the British and the French. Word order in English and French are quite different.  And how does the process of acquiring languages in areas where cultures overlap affect word order choices? My bilingual (Spanish/English) students, when learning French, often try to apply English word order to French rather than Spanish, even though Spanish and French are more closely related. In their minds second languages have a certain word order, many don&#039;t automatically see the relationship between Spanish and French.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, exactly, defines a &#8220;common cultural background&#8221; for the authors of the study?  The &#8220;common culture&#8221; they seem to find have no more in common than say, those of the British and the French. Word order in English and French are quite different.  And how does the process of acquiring languages in areas where cultures overlap affect word order choices? My bilingual (Spanish/English) students, when learning French, often try to apply English word order to French rather than Spanish, even though Spanish and French are more closely related. In their minds second languages have a certain word order, many don&#8217;t automatically see the relationship between Spanish and French.</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-848552</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-848552</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth returning to Langage Log (languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3088) to read the substamtial commentary that&#039;s accumulated.  It now appears that their citations of relevant opposing literature consist of someone&#039;s interview with Chomsky,  a popular press book on linguistics and a single sentence in one serious book, and that none of these &quot;sources&quot; are even relevant to the test that the authors claim they carried out.

Reading Greenhill&#039;s replies is also entertaining, in a pretty depressing way.  Basically, &quot;yup, you&#039;re right, so what?&quot;

Imagine Nature publishing a paper in chemistry or neuroscience with citations like that.  Imagine them tolerating such a thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth returning to Langage Log (languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3088) to read the substamtial commentary that&#8217;s accumulated.  It now appears that their citations of relevant opposing literature consist of someone&#8217;s interview with Chomsky,  a popular press book on linguistics and a single sentence in one serious book, and that none of these &#8220;sources&#8221; are even relevant to the test that the authors claim they carried out.</p>
<p>Reading Greenhill&#8217;s replies is also entertaining, in a pretty depressing way.  Basically, &#8220;yup, you&#8217;re right, so what?&#8221;</p>
<p>Imagine Nature publishing a paper in chemistry or neuroscience with citations like that.  Imagine them tolerating such a thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-821768</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-821768</guid>
		<description>@Linguist
that is a far more reasonable position, thank you.


Ps - BTW,  against Cinque&#039;s theory, see Dryer&#039;s  &quot;On the order of demonstrative, numeral, adjective, and noun: an alternative to Cinque&quot; 2009. Ms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Linguist<br />
that is a far more reasonable position, thank you.</p>
<p>Ps &#8211; BTW,  against Cinque&#8217;s theory, see Dryer&#8217;s  &#8220;On the order of demonstrative, numeral, adjective, and noun: an alternative to Cinque&#8221; 2009. Ms.</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-812422</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-812422</guid>
		<description>Over on Language Log, a lengthy discussion of this paper was summed up amusingly as follows:

&quot; This is an article:

1. whose data are bad,
2. whose analysis is dodgy,
3. whose grip on relevant literature is weak, and
3. whose conclusions are non-sequiturs.

Those details aside, it&#039;s a good paper.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over on Language Log, a lengthy discussion of this paper was summed up amusingly as follows:</p>
<p>&#8221; This is an article:</p>
<p>1. whose data are bad,<br />
2. whose analysis is dodgy,<br />
3. whose grip on relevant literature is weak, and<br />
3. whose conclusions are non-sequiturs.</p>
<p>Those details aside, it&#8217;s a good paper.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Linguist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-803877</link>
		<dc:creator>Linguist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 02:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-803877</guid>
		<description>@Peter
Harnad overstates his case.  Linguistics is an active field in which there are many open questions.  So there is no complete, explicit, exact set of rules out there that answers all our questions and solves all our problems in linguistics.  Neither Chomsky nor any other linguist would claim otherwise. 

But there are explicit,exact proposals about subdomains of UG: for example, Cinque&#039;s theory (modified in a subsequent paper by the linguists Abels and Neeleman) of Greenberg&#039;s &quot;Universal 20&quot;, which governs the order of adjectives, determiners (e.g. &quot;the&quot;, &quot;a&quot;, &quot;this&quot;), numerals and the noun in Noun Phrases across languages of every family.  Googling for &quot;universal 20&quot; and one of the names mentioned above will get you to those papers.

If you want a less technical book for non-specialists that tells you something about what has been discovered about language variation more generally, I recommend Mark Baker&#039;s &quot;Atoms of Language&quot;.  If you&#039;re looking for someone&#039;s explicit, exact computer program that models this kind of system across a broader domain, look at the work of Sandiway Fong among others.  For an explicit model of the acquisition process in this vein, Charles Yang&#039;s research is a good place to start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Peter<br />
Harnad overstates his case.  Linguistics is an active field in which there are many open questions.  So there is no complete, explicit, exact set of rules out there that answers all our questions and solves all our problems in linguistics.  Neither Chomsky nor any other linguist would claim otherwise. </p>
<p>But there are explicit,exact proposals about subdomains of UG: for example, Cinque&#8217;s theory (modified in a subsequent paper by the linguists Abels and Neeleman) of Greenberg&#8217;s &#8220;Universal 20&#8243;, which governs the order of adjectives, determiners (e.g. &#8220;the&#8221;, &#8220;a&#8221;, &#8220;this&#8221;), numerals and the noun in Noun Phrases across languages of every family.  Googling for &#8220;universal 20&#8243; and one of the names mentioned above will get you to those papers.</p>
<p>If you want a less technical book for non-specialists that tells you something about what has been discovered about language variation more generally, I recommend Mark Baker&#8217;s &#8220;Atoms of Language&#8221;.  If you&#8217;re looking for someone&#8217;s explicit, exact computer program that models this kind of system across a broader domain, look at the work of Sandiway Fong among others.  For an explicit model of the acquisition process in this vein, Charles Yang&#8217;s research is a good place to start.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-803759</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 00:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-803759</guid>
		<description>Stevan,
could you please direct us to a paper/book that *explicitly* lists *exactly* what is the &quot;complex set of rules&quot; of UG that Chomsky is claimed to have &quot;discovered&quot;? As far as I know, there is none. Note the stress on the words &quot;explicit&quot; and &quot;exact&quot;.

P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stevan,<br />
could you please direct us to a paper/book that *explicitly* lists *exactly* what is the &#8220;complex set of rules&#8221; of UG that Chomsky is claimed to have &#8220;discovered&#8221;? As far as I know, there is none. Note the stress on the words &#8220;explicit&#8221; and &#8220;exact&#8221;.</p>
<p>P</p>
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		<title>By: Stevan Harnad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-802672</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevan Harnad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-802672</guid>
		<description>LINGUISTIC NON SEQUITURS

(1) The Dunn et al article in Nature is not about language evolution (in the Darwinian sense); it is about language history.

(2) Universal grammar (UG)  is a complex set of rules, discovered by Chomsky and his co-workers. UG turns out to be universal (i.e., all known language are governed by its rules) and its rules turn out to be unlearnable on the basis of what the child says and hears, so they must be inborn in the human brain and genome.

(3) Although UG itself is universal, it has some free parameters that are set by learning. Word-order (subject-object vs. object-subject) is one of those learned parameters. The parameter-settings themselves differ for different language families, and are hence, of course, not universal, but cultural. 

(4) Hence the Dunn et al results on the history of word-order are not, as claimed, refutations of UG.

Harnad, S. (2008) Why and How the Problem of the Evolution of Universal Grammar (UG) is Hard. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 31: 524-525 http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/15618/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LINGUISTIC NON SEQUITURS</p>
<p>(1) The Dunn et al article in Nature is not about language evolution (in the Darwinian sense); it is about language history.</p>
<p>(2) Universal grammar (UG)  is a complex set of rules, discovered by Chomsky and his co-workers. UG turns out to be universal (i.e., all known language are governed by its rules) and its rules turn out to be unlearnable on the basis of what the child says and hears, so they must be inborn in the human brain and genome.</p>
<p>(3) Although UG itself is universal, it has some free parameters that are set by learning. Word-order (subject-object vs. object-subject) is one of those learned parameters. The parameter-settings themselves differ for different language families, and are hence, of course, not universal, but cultural. </p>
<p>(4) Hence the Dunn et al results on the history of word-order are not, as claimed, refutations of UG.</p>
<p>Harnad, S. (2008) Why and How the Problem of the Evolution of Universal Grammar (UG) is Hard. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 31: 524-525 <a href="http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/15618/" rel="nofollow">http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/15618/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anon Linguist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-801836</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon Linguist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-801836</guid>
		<description>Ditto, linguist. 

I think this study is attempting to falsify the existence of universal parameters. But Chomsky&#039;s principles and parameters theory argues for *parametric variation*, which the study finds. Ergo this study is not falsifying anything Chomskian. 

Also, reading the authors&#039; quotations, they seem to be on a mission to explain surface (not abstract) linguistic variation as &quot;cultural&quot;. But what is &quot;cultural&quot;? It means nothing. They also dismiss Pinkerian modularity of mind and suggest the mind is &quot;far more complex&quot; the modularity hypothesis assumes. How exactly? They do not explain. 

A welcome study but I&#039;m not impressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto, linguist. </p>
<p>I think this study is attempting to falsify the existence of universal parameters. But Chomsky&#8217;s principles and parameters theory argues for *parametric variation*, which the study finds. Ergo this study is not falsifying anything Chomskian. </p>
<p>Also, reading the authors&#8217; quotations, they seem to be on a mission to explain surface (not abstract) linguistic variation as &#8220;cultural&#8221;. But what is &#8220;cultural&#8221;? It means nothing. They also dismiss Pinkerian modularity of mind and suggest the mind is &#8220;far more complex&#8221; the modularity hypothesis assumes. How exactly? They do not explain. </p>
<p>A welcome study but I&#8217;m not impressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Linguist</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/04/15/is-grammar-more-cultural-than-universal-study-challenges-chomskys-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-800042</link>
		<dc:creator>Linguist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=28067#comment-800042</guid>
		<description>Sigh...

There *is* no &quot;Chomskyan idea that rules associate in certain sets&quot;, especially where the rules in question concern WORD order (rather than the more abstract structural relations that Chomsky and his colleagues do concern themselves with). 

The study in Nature has literally nothing at all to do with anything Chomsky has argued for.  

Now this article may be interesting for other reasons -- see Mark Liberman&#039;s thoughtful discussion today in Language Log, for example.  But the anti-Chomsky spin placed on the article is just nuts (though it&#039;s a good way to get publicity for a study on language).  The results have logically nothing to do with Chomsky or with Universal grammar.  As a linguist, I cringe at this sort of nonsense -- especially since it seems to come around every year or so (Google &quot;Piraha&quot;, for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sigh&#8230;</p>
<p>There *is* no &#8220;Chomskyan idea that rules associate in certain sets&#8221;, especially where the rules in question concern WORD order (rather than the more abstract structural relations that Chomsky and his colleagues do concern themselves with). </p>
<p>The study in Nature has literally nothing at all to do with anything Chomsky has argued for.  </p>
<p>Now this article may be interesting for other reasons &#8212; see Mark Liberman&#8217;s thoughtful discussion today in Language Log, for example.  But the anti-Chomsky spin placed on the article is just nuts (though it&#8217;s a good way to get publicity for a study on language).  The results have logically nothing to do with Chomsky or with Universal grammar.  As a linguist, I cringe at this sort of nonsense &#8212; especially since it seems to come around every year or so (Google &#8220;Piraha&#8221;, for example).</p>
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