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	<title>Comments on: Early Farmers Were Sicker and Shorter Than Their Forager Ancestors</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/</link>
	<description>80beats is DISCOVER&#039;s news aggregator, weaving together the choicest tidbits from the best articles covering the day&#039;s most compelling topics.</description>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1288053</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1288053</guid>
		<description>So many bone fields to harvest for research.....all the ranges of height around the world and genetics have to play their part
looking at the whole wide world with average height of different races can be a part of the research..  

I do not believe all early farmers were short or unhealthy, each generation continues to produce variety in size and structure from ancient dna 

unlike cloning (imagining).... ancient dna works not by replication over and over, just ever and ever creating human tapestry
Virgina Woolf remarked, 
&quot;One can not think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well&quot;  (Cader &amp; Roth, 1991).  This is a wonderful little book, my favorite line is by Gilbert Le Coze, &quot;I am human.  I eat meat &quot; (Cader &amp; Roth, 1991).
Reference:  
Cader, M., &amp; Roth, D. (1991). EAT THESE WORDS. New York: HarperCollins Publishers  lyz</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So many bone fields to harvest for research&#8230;..all the ranges of height around the world and genetics have to play their part<br />
looking at the whole wide world with average height of different races can be a part of the research..  </p>
<p>I do not believe all early farmers were short or unhealthy, each generation continues to produce variety in size and structure from ancient dna </p>
<p>unlike cloning (imagining)&#8230;. ancient dna works not by replication over and over, just ever and ever creating human tapestry<br />
Virgina Woolf remarked,<br />
&#8220;One can not think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well&#8221;  (Cader &amp; Roth, 1991).  This is a wonderful little book, my favorite line is by Gilbert Le Coze, &#8220;I am human.  I eat meat &#8221; (Cader &amp; Roth, 1991).<br />
Reference:<br />
Cader, M., &amp; Roth, D. (1991). EAT THESE WORDS. New York: HarperCollins Publishers  lyz</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1176659</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1176659</guid>
		<description>Of course it was unhealthy; you shouldn&#039;t eat stapled crops. Those little wires can hurt on the way down. /sarcasm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it was unhealthy; you shouldn&#8217;t eat stapled crops. Those little wires can hurt on the way down. /sarcasm</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Chapman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1104576</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Chapman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1104576</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how anyone, especially hunter gatherers, could have had ready access to fruit all year in anyplace that had winter.  I would also expect hunter gatherers to frequently have to go for days without any food at all.  This whole finding is very counterintuitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how anyone, especially hunter gatherers, could have had ready access to fruit all year in anyplace that had winter.  I would also expect hunter gatherers to frequently have to go for days without any food at all.  This whole finding is very counterintuitive.</p>
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		<title>By: Bonsai King</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1099093</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonsai King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1099093</guid>
		<description>It is very clear therefore that the mass production of carbohydrates through the advent of agriculture is the culprit. A high carb diet leads to all sorts of diseases due to increased body weight. Long live Dr. Atkin&#039;s Low Carb Diet Revolution!!!

Moreover, hunter gatherers have a variety of diet which gives them all the vitamins from a to z.

We are as unhealthy now as the early farmers . . . . Thanks to the erroneous food pyramid and the carb companies that fool us to eat their cheap cereals, chips, and snacks. Also hotdogs and hamburgers which are chiefly made of carb extenders. And softdrink companies that feed us sugar instead of water when we are thirsty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very clear therefore that the mass production of carbohydrates through the advent of agriculture is the culprit. A high carb diet leads to all sorts of diseases due to increased body weight. Long live Dr. Atkin&#8217;s Low Carb Diet Revolution!!!</p>
<p>Moreover, hunter gatherers have a variety of diet which gives them all the vitamins from a to z.</p>
<p>We are as unhealthy now as the early farmers . . . . Thanks to the erroneous food pyramid and the carb companies that fool us to eat their cheap cereals, chips, and snacks. Also hotdogs and hamburgers which are chiefly made of carb extenders. And softdrink companies that feed us sugar instead of water when we are thirsty.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1097127</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1097127</guid>
		<description>This is not new and is part of every introductory anthropology class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not new and is part of every introductory anthropology class.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashley Cakes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1095793</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashley Cakes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 05:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1095793</guid>
		<description>Aside from my above comment, you all have interesting points. ;) Hunter-gatherers were not as close-knit a society as the farmers, who eventually grouped together into villages and cities, created irrigation systems, therefore spreading disease at a quicker rate and to more people. I wonder what our civilizations would be like now if, hypothetically speaking, we had never evolved into farmers and instead remained hunter-gatherers? Hmmm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aside from my above comment, you all have interesting points. ;) Hunter-gatherers were not as close-knit a society as the farmers, who eventually grouped together into villages and cities, created irrigation systems, therefore spreading disease at a quicker rate and to more people. I wonder what our civilizations would be like now if, hypothetically speaking, we had never evolved into farmers and instead remained hunter-gatherers? Hmmm&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ashley Cakes</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1095789</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashley Cakes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 05:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1095789</guid>
		<description>What I want to know is why everyone seems to be bashing Discover for not reporting the whole story when it&#039;s obviously a bullet-point article made to announce a discovery, highlight a few points, and then direct the readers to the more in-depth version by naming the book that originally theorized this and having links to other sites. Did you actually expected to find everything in this one tiny article? I mean, really, people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I want to know is why everyone seems to be bashing Discover for not reporting the whole story when it&#8217;s obviously a bullet-point article made to announce a discovery, highlight a few points, and then direct the readers to the more in-depth version by naming the book that originally theorized this and having links to other sites. Did you actually expected to find everything in this one tiny article? I mean, really, people.</p>
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		<title>By: RickW</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1088420</link>
		<dc:creator>RickW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1088420</guid>
		<description>Bonnie Bowman says:   &quot;Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering.&quot;
And John Lerch says: &quot;How about societies becoming less egalitarian as servanthood and outright slavery became the norm?&quot;
Put the two together and it becomes entirely possible that the majority of humans in any given society were no longer ALLOWED to forage.  This can be loosely corroborated by the fact that among the earliest artefacts constructed by humans were irrigation systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
which required an &quot;organized&quot; (read: enslaved) population, not only for the actual physical work required, but (as longevity was shortened and illnesses grew in frequency) the need to procreate in a regimented atmosphere.
As far as nutrition goes, this can be reinforced by Senate document #264:
http://www.senatedocument264.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bonnie Bowman says:   &#8220;Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering.&#8221;<br />
And John Lerch says: &#8220;How about societies becoming less egalitarian as servanthood and outright slavery became the norm?&#8221;<br />
Put the two together and it becomes entirely possible that the majority of humans in any given society were no longer ALLOWED to forage.  This can be loosely corroborated by the fact that among the earliest artefacts constructed by humans were irrigation systems:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer</a><br />
which required an &#8220;organized&#8221; (read: enslaved) population, not only for the actual physical work required, but (as longevity was shortened and illnesses grew in frequency) the need to procreate in a regimented atmosphere.<br />
As far as nutrition goes, this can be reinforced by Senate document #264:<br />
<a href="http://www.senatedocument264.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.senatedocument264.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1088133</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1088133</guid>
		<description>I wonder what the infant mortality looked like between the cultures?  I would almost bet anything that agricultural families, with a relatively stable food source, were able to raise many more children into adult-hood than the hunter/gatherer groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what the infant mortality looked like between the cultures?  I would almost bet anything that agricultural families, with a relatively stable food source, were able to raise many more children into adult-hood than the hunter/gatherer groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Shirley Dawson-Michael, Ph.D.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1087868</link>
		<dc:creator>Shirley Dawson-Michael, Ph.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1087868</guid>
		<description>The introduction of massive amounts of grain into the human diet can also account for less than optimal health, particularly in Europe. Follow the gluten trail and you will also find a trail of disease and compromised health.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The introduction of massive amounts of grain into the human diet can also account for less than optimal health, particularly in Europe. Follow the gluten trail and you will also find a trail of disease and compromised health.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1084963</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 00:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1084963</guid>
		<description>Joe, no. Go with the less than optimal diet theory. What did farmers grow, the harder  to produce but more nutritious xxxx or the easier to grow higher bulk yyyy? Clue - people are lazy and they want a full stomach. 
Also nutrition wasn&#039;t something they even had a clue about. Farmers do not want to grow 37 crops, they want to grow one, maybe 2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, no. Go with the less than optimal diet theory. What did farmers grow, the harder  to produce but more nutritious xxxx or the easier to grow higher bulk yyyy? Clue &#8211; people are lazy and they want a full stomach.<br />
Also nutrition wasn&#8217;t something they even had a clue about. Farmers do not want to grow 37 crops, they want to grow one, maybe 2.</p>
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		<title>By: AG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1083897</link>
		<dc:creator>AG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1083897</guid>
		<description>@dcwarrior

Both Chinese and European records indicate healthy height and development for nobles compared to civilian or slave populations. Nobles had luxury to eat like hunter/gatherer ancestors. Nobles basically were hunt/gathers over even larger land since they owned both farmers and lands. Ironically, some hunter/gatherers imposed themself over farmers and became ruling noble class. Their traditional life style of hunting wild animals however lost due to habitat lost to farming. When Hun invaded Europe during Roman time, the ruling hun actually recruited European farmers to settle in Hungary in order to provide them with material wealth. Well, farmers are domesticad animals like catttle.

However, exploited farmers still outnumber hunter/gatherers in the end. People who can survive with very limited resource always have edge. In modern history, only country that did not suffer population decrease in World War 2 was China despite huge number of people had been killed or starved. China population had increased during world war 2. On battle field, kill/death ratio for Chinese army was 1:2. To Japanese army, they seems winning every battle. But at end, Chinese army seems never run out of supply of soldiers. Actually, the army size even increased at end of world war 2. To fight such opponent, you can win every battle but still lose the war at end mathematically.

The same can be said during early struggle between farmers and hunter/gathers. Hunters might be good fighters to win every battle.  But farmers had unlimited supply of troops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dcwarrior</p>
<p>Both Chinese and European records indicate healthy height and development for nobles compared to civilian or slave populations. Nobles had luxury to eat like hunter/gatherer ancestors. Nobles basically were hunt/gathers over even larger land since they owned both farmers and lands. Ironically, some hunter/gatherers imposed themself over farmers and became ruling noble class. Their traditional life style of hunting wild animals however lost due to habitat lost to farming. When Hun invaded Europe during Roman time, the ruling hun actually recruited European farmers to settle in Hungary in order to provide them with material wealth. Well, farmers are domesticad animals like catttle.</p>
<p>However, exploited farmers still outnumber hunter/gatherers in the end. People who can survive with very limited resource always have edge. In modern history, only country that did not suffer population decrease in World War 2 was China despite huge number of people had been killed or starved. China population had increased during world war 2. On battle field, kill/death ratio for Chinese army was 1:2. To Japanese army, they seems winning every battle. But at end, Chinese army seems never run out of supply of soldiers. Actually, the army size even increased at end of world war 2. To fight such opponent, you can win every battle but still lose the war at end mathematically.</p>
<p>The same can be said during early struggle between farmers and hunter/gathers. Hunters might be good fighters to win every battle.  But farmers had unlimited supply of troops.</p>
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		<title>By: dcwarrior</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1083608</link>
		<dc:creator>dcwarrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1083608</guid>
		<description>and when you can support more people per unit of land, you also have the ability to amass the surplus, specialize and defend yourself... or attack.  Once a society of farmers are in place, the hunter-gatherers around them would have a hard time pushing them back off the land.  Too numerous and well-defended.

I wonder whether the nobles among the agricultural societies were similarly unhealthy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and when you can support more people per unit of land, you also have the ability to amass the surplus, specialize and defend yourself&#8230; or attack.  Once a society of farmers are in place, the hunter-gatherers around them would have a hard time pushing them back off the land.  Too numerous and well-defended.</p>
<p>I wonder whether the nobles among the agricultural societies were similarly unhealthy?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1083575</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1083575</guid>
		<description>Old news?  See Spencer Wells:  Pandora&#039;s Seed

http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Seed-Unforeseen-Cost-Civilization/dp/1400062152</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old news?  See Spencer Wells:  Pandora&#8217;s Seed</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Seed-Unforeseen-Cost-Civilization/dp/1400062152" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Seed-Unforeseen-Cost-Civilization/dp/1400062152</a></p>
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		<title>By: AG</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1083355</link>
		<dc:creator>AG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1083355</guid>
		<description>It is story of quantity beating quality. Just look at recently history of farmers replacing hunter-gathers tribes in North America, Taiwan, African farmers southward migration. You need one square mile to support a single hunter/gatherer. You only need one acre to support a whole famer&#039;s family. Farmers will outbreed hunter/gatherers in very short time.

It explained why roaches out survive dinosaurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is story of quantity beating quality. Just look at recently history of farmers replacing hunter-gathers tribes in North America, Taiwan, African farmers southward migration. You need one square mile to support a single hunter/gatherer. You only need one acre to support a whole famer&#8217;s family. Farmers will outbreed hunter/gatherers in very short time.</p>
<p>It explained why roaches out survive dinosaurs.</p>
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		<title>By: ganesh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1080464</link>
		<dc:creator>ganesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1080464</guid>
		<description>I find it interesting and somewhat amusing that people speak of previous societies &quot;choosing&quot; to adopt agriculturalism over hunting and gathering. While it may be true that somebody once _chose_ to raise an aurochs calf or _chose_ to harvest that particular grass near the trash pit, nobody EVER chose to adopt farming over foraging. The changes in culture and behavior that eventually resulted in sedentary, agrarian societies happened over thousands of years. These disadvantages only developed and manifested very gradually, probably so slowly that people living at the time were scarcely able to witness it happening. It is not as though these ancient farmers were dunces who would decide to be sicker and shorter as a trade-off for an easier life and a more certain food supply. In fact, it is NOT certain that foragers have a harder working life than agricultural peoples. It is also false to make this into a dichotomy of one lifestyle versus another; there have existed societies that were sedentary, stratified and socially complex but were based on hunting/gathering (Japan and Pacific NW U.S., to name two).
If the people of the past were able to see anything at all about this new &quot;invention&quot; it was that now they could have food surplus in a way that is seldom provided by the natural environment. Yes, there were salmon runs and and there was berry ripening time, etc., but the development of animal husbandry and plant farming allowed food to be plentiful at all times of year, even sometimes through hard times, and in such quantities as to enable people to simply reproduce in larger quantities. This is a benefit that even an individual can witness over a lifetime and whose ramifications we are still seeing today as truly modern production methods infiltrate &quot;traditional&quot; societies. Nutritional deficiency persists today, even in developed countries, for largely the same reasons as they did then. Farming is intensive land use that allows surplus food production and therefore larger populations, but since agriculture is and has almost always been fairly limited in diversity, there is little that it can do to provide a full range of nutrients in the same way a (necessarily) diverse strategy of forgaing can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it interesting and somewhat amusing that people speak of previous societies &#8220;choosing&#8221; to adopt agriculturalism over hunting and gathering. While it may be true that somebody once _chose_ to raise an aurochs calf or _chose_ to harvest that particular grass near the trash pit, nobody EVER chose to adopt farming over foraging. The changes in culture and behavior that eventually resulted in sedentary, agrarian societies happened over thousands of years. These disadvantages only developed and manifested very gradually, probably so slowly that people living at the time were scarcely able to witness it happening. It is not as though these ancient farmers were dunces who would decide to be sicker and shorter as a trade-off for an easier life and a more certain food supply. In fact, it is NOT certain that foragers have a harder working life than agricultural peoples. It is also false to make this into a dichotomy of one lifestyle versus another; there have existed societies that were sedentary, stratified and socially complex but were based on hunting/gathering (Japan and Pacific NW U.S., to name two).<br />
If the people of the past were able to see anything at all about this new &#8220;invention&#8221; it was that now they could have food surplus in a way that is seldom provided by the natural environment. Yes, there were salmon runs and and there was berry ripening time, etc., but the development of animal husbandry and plant farming allowed food to be plentiful at all times of year, even sometimes through hard times, and in such quantities as to enable people to simply reproduce in larger quantities. This is a benefit that even an individual can witness over a lifetime and whose ramifications we are still seeing today as truly modern production methods infiltrate &#8220;traditional&#8221; societies. Nutritional deficiency persists today, even in developed countries, for largely the same reasons as they did then. Farming is intensive land use that allows surplus food production and therefore larger populations, but since agriculture is and has almost always been fairly limited in diversity, there is little that it can do to provide a full range of nutrients in the same way a (necessarily) diverse strategy of forgaing can.</p>
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		<title>By: Day Brown</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1080321</link>
		<dc:creator>Day Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1080321</guid>
		<description>Not everywhere. The 5000 BP graveyard at Varna Bulgaria shows women average in their mid 40&#039;s and men in their late 30&#039;s. None of the skeletons found so far, over 150, show signs of malnutrition. This is the graveyard with the famous &#039;penis sheath&#039;. 

The diff is that this culture was run by women who used herbal birth control so there was always the resources needed to raise every child. Make no mistake; dozens of herbs evolved to cause sterility or abortion to prevent herbivores from developing a taste for them. I have, for example, both sweet potato and wild yam in my garden. Both have the same hearth shaped leaves on vines, but the deer will eat the former right to the ground and not touch the latter just couple yards away. 

Wild yam has phyto-estrogen, the active ingredient in RU-486 and the pill. Part of the problem is the history we have was written by scribes in the pay of warrior elites, so these are the cultures that get looked it, and yes, slaves are not fed well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not everywhere. The 5000 BP graveyard at Varna Bulgaria shows women average in their mid 40&#8242;s and men in their late 30&#8242;s. None of the skeletons found so far, over 150, show signs of malnutrition. This is the graveyard with the famous &#8216;penis sheath&#8217;. </p>
<p>The diff is that this culture was run by women who used herbal birth control so there was always the resources needed to raise every child. Make no mistake; dozens of herbs evolved to cause sterility or abortion to prevent herbivores from developing a taste for them. I have, for example, both sweet potato and wild yam in my garden. Both have the same hearth shaped leaves on vines, but the deer will eat the former right to the ground and not touch the latter just couple yards away. </p>
<p>Wild yam has phyto-estrogen, the active ingredient in RU-486 and the pill. Part of the problem is the history we have was written by scribes in the pay of warrior elites, so these are the cultures that get looked it, and yes, slaves are not fed well.</p>
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		<title>By: me</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1077932</link>
		<dc:creator>me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 07:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1077932</guid>
		<description>Is no one talking about the fact that a hunter-gatherer diet is the diet humans evolved on? We&#039;re not designed to eat grains and legumes. Our bodies thrive on animals, fruits, and vegetables. We turn away from that and we begin to get sick. Period. Discover really botched this story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is no one talking about the fact that a hunter-gatherer diet is the diet humans evolved on? We&#8217;re not designed to eat grains and legumes. Our bodies thrive on animals, fruits, and vegetables. We turn away from that and we begin to get sick. Period. Discover really botched this story.</p>
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		<title>By: tamurphy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1076629</link>
		<dc:creator>tamurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 01:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1076629</guid>
		<description>As sugested, farming was likely initially taxing, as it had to be carved out of then traditional modes of support, and was surely very inefficient in most instances. Abundant animals in the environment would have shared in the harvest, even if only while their human benefactors slept. In fact, this would have been a prime inducement to domestication. The decrease in stature could reflect diminishing physical exertion in the presence of what might now be regarded as quite moderate eating habits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As sugested, farming was likely initially taxing, as it had to be carved out of then traditional modes of support, and was surely very inefficient in most instances. Abundant animals in the environment would have shared in the harvest, even if only while their human benefactors slept. In fact, this would have been a prime inducement to domestication. The decrease in stature could reflect diminishing physical exertion in the presence of what might now be regarded as quite moderate eating habits.</p>
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		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1076594</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 01:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1076594</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I can’t see early humans giving up foraging and gathering as this article implies, just because they had a field of wheat or barley and some cows. Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering. This article does not go into any of those reasons.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

One hypothesis has to do with the Pleistocene mass extinction (whether triggered by over hunting or not). Early humans gave up hunting and gathering in favor of agriculture not because the latter was superior to the forming, but because, thanks to the dying out of much of their preferred prey and significant diminishment in the numbers and diversity of what remained, hunting and gathering didn&#039;t work anymore. Agriculture was their desperate last ditch solution that kept them alive, if worse off than before.

It probably happened in stages, over many generations. Hunter-gatherers figured out early on that they could manipulate their environment in certain ways to increase their hunting and gathering yields. This would have evolved over time into the earliest forms of proto-agriculture (it could have begun with something as simple as noticing that a relative abundance of edible plants grew &quot;spontaneously&quot; near their communal latrines).  A mixed system would have arisen where people obtained some of their nutrition from hunting and gathering, and some from local small-scale agricultural production. But as it became harder and harder to hunt and gather, more and more food was provided by agriculture and more and more effort devoted to it, until hunting and gathering was abandoned entirely. Once they committed to agriculture on a large scale, this resulting in agriculture-supporting environmental manipulation that made any return to hunting and gathering impractical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I can’t see early humans giving up foraging and gathering as this article implies, just because they had a field of wheat or barley and some cows. Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering. This article does not go into any of those reasons.</p></blockquote>
<p>One hypothesis has to do with the Pleistocene mass extinction (whether triggered by over hunting or not). Early humans gave up hunting and gathering in favor of agriculture not because the latter was superior to the forming, but because, thanks to the dying out of much of their preferred prey and significant diminishment in the numbers and diversity of what remained, hunting and gathering didn&#8217;t work anymore. Agriculture was their desperate last ditch solution that kept them alive, if worse off than before.</p>
<p>It probably happened in stages, over many generations. Hunter-gatherers figured out early on that they could manipulate their environment in certain ways to increase their hunting and gathering yields. This would have evolved over time into the earliest forms of proto-agriculture (it could have begun with something as simple as noticing that a relative abundance of edible plants grew &#8220;spontaneously&#8221; near their communal latrines).  A mixed system would have arisen where people obtained some of their nutrition from hunting and gathering, and some from local small-scale agricultural production. But as it became harder and harder to hunt and gather, more and more food was provided by agriculture and more and more effort devoted to it, until hunting and gathering was abandoned entirely. Once they committed to agriculture on a large scale, this resulting in agriculture-supporting environmental manipulation that made any return to hunting and gathering impractical.</p>
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		<title>By: Bonnie Bowman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1074301</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonnie Bowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1074301</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t see early humans giving up foraging and gathering as this article implies, just because they had a field of wheat or barley and some cows. Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering. This article does not go into any of those reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t see early humans giving up foraging and gathering as this article implies, just because they had a field of wheat or barley and some cows. Early farmers had to have had a good reason to give up all the nutritional benefit derived from continued hunting and gathering. This article does not go into any of those reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: John Lerch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1074156</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lerch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1074156</guid>
		<description>How about societies becoming less egalitarian as servanthood and outright slavery became the norm?  And although I think the 2nd amendment people are mostly nuts; the lack of training of the farming/proletariat  in the arts of hunting/war made them THEN more susceptible to predation?
And how about the possibility of the reversal of cause and effect?  I.E. hard times gave the farmers an advantage over hunter/gatherers but times were still harder than they had been in the archaeologically indistinguishable time a few generations before  from which we gather the data on the hunter/gatherers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about societies becoming less egalitarian as servanthood and outright slavery became the norm?  And although I think the 2nd amendment people are mostly nuts; the lack of training of the farming/proletariat  in the arts of hunting/war made them THEN more susceptible to predation?<br />
And how about the possibility of the reversal of cause and effect?  I.E. hard times gave the farmers an advantage over hunter/gatherers but times were still harder than they had been in the archaeologically indistinguishable time a few generations before  from which we gather the data on the hunter/gatherers?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1073899</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1073899</guid>
		<description>Is it not also equally possible that a less physically demanding lifestyle and more certain and less dangerous to obtain source of food enabled the survival of individuals who would have not been physically suited for hunter gathering?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it not also equally possible that a less physically demanding lifestyle and more certain and less dangerous to obtain source of food enabled the survival of individuals who would have not been physically suited for hunter gathering?</p>
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		<title>By: John S. Wilkins</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/17/early-farmers-were-sicker-and-shorter-than-their-forager-ancestors/comment-page-1/#comment-1072194</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Wilkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 01:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=29750#comment-1072194</guid>
		<description>An early view that agriculture caused a degradation in forager health and stature can also be found in David Rindos&#039; classic &lt;i&gt;The Origins of Agriculture&lt;/i&gt; (1984), many of the ideas of which ended up in Diamond&#039;s work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An early view that agriculture caused a degradation in forager health and stature can also be found in David Rindos&#8217; classic <i>The Origins of Agriculture</i> (1984), many of the ideas of which ended up in Diamond&#8217;s work.</p>
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