Comments on: Baby Parrots Learn Their Names From Their Parents

By: Matt B.

Matt B. — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 04:03:59 +0000

There’s a difference between “how human speech arises”, which sounds like a present-day individual act, and “how human speech arose”, which was a one-time species act.

By: princess parrots

princess parrots — Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:38:48 +0000

Thanks a bunch for sharing this with all of us you actually recognise what you are speaking about! Bookmarked. Kindly additionally talk over with my website =). We can have a hyperlink trade agreement between us

By: Angeles

Angeles — Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:42:00 +0000

Fascinating, indeed! Congratulations to the author.

By: Jockaira

Jockaira — Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:47:25 +0000

Amphiox said: “It is far more parsimonious to assume that the ability evolved separately and independently in birds and mammals than to assume it was inherited from the LCA and independently lost in all those other lineages.”

Wouldn’t it be more parsimonious that the ability evolved one time and in descendent species, simply lost, degraded, not manifested, or enhanced? This ability might have been there for quite some time, but because of lack of vocal apparatus or other factors not used until the time and physiognomy developed.

In other words, the basic brain “circuitry” may have been present since very ancient times, but used for other purposes until the development of vocal communication, then subsumed for a more convenient and useful purpose.

By: amphiox

amphiox — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:39:44 +0000

Obviously it does not squelch interaction, because look at the responses and the scoldings I got!

Context matters. On an internet blog, you tend to get saved by SIWOTI syndrome, no matter how undiplomatic you are (intentional or not)!

In a classroom or other similar venue, perhaps not so much.

By: b j

b j — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:44:03 +0000

Sperm whales use ‘names’ as identifiers. Recently discovered.

By: Michelle

Michelle — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:05:48 +0000

Obviously it does not squelch interaction, because look at the responses and the scoldings I got!

By: Crow

Crow — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:50:54 +0000

Saying that an idea is “ridiculous” is a great way to shut down interaction. There’s no better way to squelch creativity than to ridicule it. I far prefer a response more along the lines of “I don’t see how that might be helpful. Can you explain a bit more?”

By: Michelle

Michelle — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 02:49:14 +0000

I think the problem here is the use of the present tense…how human speech ARISES. Probably what was meant was how human speech AROSE. The statement then becomes more meaningful.

By: amphiox

amphiox — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 02:47:07 +0000

The LCA of mammals and birds was the ur-amniote. If this form of “speech” (ie individual labels) existed in the LCA, then it would have been inherited by all the other descendents of the LCA, which includes basically every single tetrapod on the planet that is not an amphibian (every lizard, snake, crocodilian, all the extinct pelycosaurs, therapsids, cynodonts, dinosaurs, pterosaurs, mosasaurs, etc), and we should expect that the majority of all these species would possess the ability.

It is far more parsimonious to assume that the ability evolved separately and independently in birds and mammals than to assume it was inherited from the LCA and independently lost in all those other lineages.

By: missy

missy — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 23:40:56 +0000

anyone interested in neuroscience would see the value of comparison. by looking at the way organized communication arises and differs in species, we may gain better understanding of underlying mechanisms in the brain, and there are very few other species with this trait.

By: Calo

Calo — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:40:00 +0000

Michelle… nothing about us is really “self-made.” Rather, it inter-dependently arose or arises… so we try to trace it back to its beginnings as best as we can.

Because of evolution, however, other species were first in experiencing anything we may experience. Meaning, ours are different modes, or textures, of the same stuff that was there before… and, in that sense, there is nothing about us that cannot also be found elsewhere, in other species. We have just chosen to forget or ignore that other species have had it all along.

In terms of speech, the same thing applies. Finding how it occurs without the cultural, political, and religious baggage, as “I speak my way” pointed out above, is filtering the stuff to where it can be looked at better, where it’s “purer,” where it hasn’t been tampered with…

Eric and David, along those lines, some form of speech had to be there even before the split between mammals and birds.

By: David

David — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:15:10 +0000

The answer to Eric’s question is quite obviously that they developed independently. For example, our immediate ancestors can’t do it.

I’d like to propose a fourth species for the list: Emperor penguins. They have unique calls which allow parents and offspring to identify each other in the mob. I’m not sure if this is exactly the same as a name but it certainly is close.

By: Eric

Eric — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:08:48 +0000

I think what Michelle is missing is that before now, we knew of only mammals that had this development.
The question now is whether this development occurred prior to the divergence between mammals and birds, or whether it developed independently in both class of animals.

By: amphiox

amphiox — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:04:30 +0000

What a ridiculous statement. All you have to do is observe humans to figure out how human speech arises.

Not ridiculous at all. The humans you have to observe to really figure out how human speech arose are ancient humans, but sadly, those dudes are in no position to be observed speaking any more.

By: I speak my way

I speak my way — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 20:01:20 +0000

It is hardly ridiculous to look to another species to model human mechanisms. When you have two instances you can examine them for contrasts and consistencies. As the parrot’s mode of speech is more simplistic and not nearly as constrained by cultural pressures as the established human culture is, this is a very useful method. Notice that among humans there are social trends for choosing names that do vary over time and between cultural groups. An additional example can provide very useful information. Consider similar statements about the potential to learn from other the weather and (bio)chemical activity of other planets and moons.

By: Michelle

Michelle — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 19:14:40 +0000

“parrots could provide a model for how human speech arises” What a ridiculous statement. All you have to do is observe humans to figure out how human speech arises. The value of this research is to learn about how certain animals communicate, and how complex their thinking processes are. There are human parallels which help us understand them better. I doubt we can extrapolate from their communication something that we can so readily observe in ourselves.