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	<title>Comments on: Newsflash: Gravity is Now a Little Weaker; Mass of Proton a Bit Smaller</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/</link>
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		<title>By: Jason Slope</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28609</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Slope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28609</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t going through the various magnetic fields have an impact?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t going through the various magnetic fields have an impact?</p>
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		<title>By: JWS</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28608</link>
		<dc:creator>JWS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 21:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28608</guid>
		<description>Slowing light this way doesn&#039;t violate any principle of physics. Einstein&#039;s theory of relativity places an upper, but not lower, limit on the speed of light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slowing light this way doesn&#8217;t violate any principle of physics. Einstein&#8217;s theory of relativity places an upper, but not lower, limit on the speed of light.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28607</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 20:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28607</guid>
		<description>The speed of light can also be slowed down. I remember reading an article about firing a laser into a certain gas near absolute zero and effectively reducing light&#039;s speed to under 100 kph or mph, either way a significant slow down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The speed of light can also be slowed down. I remember reading an article about firing a laser into a certain gas near absolute zero and effectively reducing light&#8217;s speed to under 100 kph or mph, either way a significant slow down.</p>
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		<title>By: vaivo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28606</link>
		<dc:creator>vaivo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 20:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28606</guid>
		<description>To insist that all understanding of the cosmos must conform to the General Theory of Relativity, and the wordage used in it,  is not realistic. Our knowledge and insights have advanced since that great work was accomplished, and to insist that space can only be &quot;curved&quot; and not change in &quot;density&quot;, which I would also term coupiousness, is trying to arrest human thought in early 20th century. Space is curved like a mountain side is curved, easier to walk around than up and down.  One needs to understand that space is a construct of energy, and the amount of energy is variable,  as demonstrated  by the phenomenon of gravitational potential energy, energy readily added or subtracted from local space, and thereby changing energy content, density,  of said space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To insist that all understanding of the cosmos must conform to the General Theory of Relativity, and the wordage used in it,  is not realistic. Our knowledge and insights have advanced since that great work was accomplished, and to insist that space can only be &#8220;curved&#8221; and not change in &#8220;density&#8221;, which I would also term coupiousness, is trying to arrest human thought in early 20th century. Space is curved like a mountain side is curved, easier to walk around than up and down.  One needs to understand that space is a construct of energy, and the amount of energy is variable,  as demonstrated  by the phenomenon of gravitational potential energy, energy readily added or subtracted from local space, and thereby changing energy content, density,  of said space.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28605</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28605</guid>
		<description>&quot;density of space&quot;.

There is no such thing in relativity. In general relativity there is density of massenergy that leads to curvature of spacetime. (Which in turn tends to lead to increased density of massenergy. Hence black hole production.)

@ tamurphy:

&quot;Electromagnetic energy has no upper limit for temperature and rate of propagation.&quot;

- In all modern theories of EM it has the latter. I assume you are confusing this with the existence of virtual particles, but they are not real particles with real energy.

As for temperature it is a property of thermodynamics, and doesn&#039;t affect speed of propagation.

- There are conjectures that says there is a maximum temperature, but it is an open question. It is all speculative physics.

FWIW, Smolin seems to be considered a joke by most other theorists. (Spurious comments from working theorists on blogs, so anecdotal impression only.) Maybe the book should have been titled &quot;The Trouble With Smolin”.

@ vaivo:

&quot;Since photons carry energy and momentum, how can they be considered massless?&quot;

They are without invariant mass in relativity. That is allowed, and is the natural state for particles in that theory.

Particle invariant masses, which are also allowed, are thought to be created by the Higgs mechanism. See the recent ballyhoo over LHC and Tevatron results.

&quot;C increases with density of space&quot;

No change of density of space, see above. Massenergy curves space, and particles tries to follow that curvature. If they are invariant massless like the photon they succeed fully.

Curved trajectories, hence lensing possible. The result is indeed analogous to lensing with refractive lenses that slows light as it passes through them. But the physics is not the same. Wikipedia has &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a real nice article on gravitational lensing with movies and all&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;density of space&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is no such thing in relativity. In general relativity there is density of massenergy that leads to curvature of spacetime. (Which in turn tends to lead to increased density of massenergy. Hence black hole production.)</p>
<p>@ tamurphy:</p>
<p>&#8220;Electromagnetic energy has no upper limit for temperature and rate of propagation.&#8221;</p>
<p>- In all modern theories of EM it has the latter. I assume you are confusing this with the existence of virtual particles, but they are not real particles with real energy.</p>
<p>As for temperature it is a property of thermodynamics, and doesn&#8217;t affect speed of propagation.</p>
<p>- There are conjectures that says there is a maximum temperature, but it is an open question. It is all speculative physics.</p>
<p>FWIW, Smolin seems to be considered a joke by most other theorists. (Spurious comments from working theorists on blogs, so anecdotal impression only.) Maybe the book should have been titled &#8220;The Trouble With Smolin”.</p>
<p>@ vaivo:</p>
<p>&#8220;Since photons carry energy and momentum, how can they be considered massless?&#8221;</p>
<p>They are without invariant mass in relativity. That is allowed, and is the natural state for particles in that theory.</p>
<p>Particle invariant masses, which are also allowed, are thought to be created by the Higgs mechanism. See the recent ballyhoo over LHC and Tevatron results.</p>
<p>&#8220;C increases with density of space&#8221;</p>
<p>No change of density of space, see above. Massenergy curves space, and particles tries to follow that curvature. If they are invariant massless like the photon they succeed fully.</p>
<p>Curved trajectories, hence lensing possible. The result is indeed analogous to lensing with refractive lenses that slows light as it passes through them. But the physics is not the same. Wikipedia has <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens" rel="nofollow">a real nice article on gravitational lensing with movies and all</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28604</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28604</guid>
		<description>That puts a fine-structure on constants, all right.

(Can&#039;t wait for the mass artifact to go to a museum!)

@ Jeff:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
in very select cases this small deviation from the old value could have massive consequences on complex computer simulations dealing with chaos.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Naively I can&#039;t see how that works. The very idea of chaos is that you can&#039;t repeat all numerical experiments!

@ Koshka:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
let’s hope it will help climate science geniuses narrow down the climate sensitivity uncertainty.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why would they have to do that, the certainty is already high enough to convince of AGW replacing the old Greenhouse Theory? (In the same way GR replaced newtonian gravity; a slight improvement, much better understanding.)

As it happens the exponential rise of the signal over the noise will soon overtake ROI on improving theory and experiment. They can attribute global (and in some cases regional already) observations with 2 sigma certainty as of last year. There is ~ 50 % chance that it will be 3 sigma predictivity at the time of the next IPCC report 2014.

Then the theory will not only be validated beyond reasonable doubt as climate science, but as applied physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That puts a fine-structure on constants, all right.</p>
<p>(Can&#8217;t wait for the mass artifact to go to a museum!)</p>
<p>@ Jeff:</p>
<blockquote><p>
in very select cases this small deviation from the old value could have massive consequences on complex computer simulations dealing with chaos.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Naively I can&#8217;t see how that works. The very idea of chaos is that you can&#8217;t repeat all numerical experiments!</p>
<p>@ Koshka:</p>
<blockquote><p>
let’s hope it will help climate science geniuses narrow down the climate sensitivity uncertainty.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would they have to do that, the certainty is already high enough to convince of AGW replacing the old Greenhouse Theory? (In the same way GR replaced newtonian gravity; a slight improvement, much better understanding.)</p>
<p>As it happens the exponential rise of the signal over the noise will soon overtake ROI on improving theory and experiment. They can attribute global (and in some cases regional already) observations with 2 sigma certainty as of last year. There is ~ 50 % chance that it will be 3 sigma predictivity at the time of the next IPCC report 2014.</p>
<p>Then the theory will not only be validated beyond reasonable doubt as climate science, but as applied physics.</p>
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		<title>By: vaivo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28603</link>
		<dc:creator>vaivo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28603</guid>
		<description>Question to Tamurphy:  Since photons carry energy and momentum, how can they be considered massless?  Also, Gravitational lensing poses an interesting question in light of your further statements.  If C increases with density of space, does that mean  that presence of mass reduces the density of space?  A slowdown of light has usually been used in explaining the phenomenon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question to Tamurphy:  Since photons carry energy and momentum, how can they be considered massless?  Also, Gravitational lensing poses an interesting question in light of your further statements.  If C increases with density of space, does that mean  that presence of mass reduces the density of space?  A slowdown of light has usually been used in explaining the phenomenon.</p>
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		<title>By: Crow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28602</link>
		<dc:creator>Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28602</guid>
		<description>Ha! It&#039;s not a &quot;slug&quot; of platinum and iridium; that&#039;s an English measure of mass!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! It&#8217;s not a &#8220;slug&#8221; of platinum and iridium; that&#8217;s an English measure of mass!</p>
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		<title>By: tamurphy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28601</link>
		<dc:creator>tamurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28601</guid>
		<description>According to Lee Smolin, in his book &quot;The Trouble With Physics,&quot; the locally observed speed of light is a lower limit for the massless photon, and an upper limit for massive particles. Electromagnetic energy has no upper limit for temperature and rate of propagation. That is, as the density of space increases, as in the initial instant of the big-bang, the speed of light approaches infinity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Lee Smolin, in his book &#8220;The Trouble With Physics,&#8221; the locally observed speed of light is a lower limit for the massless photon, and an upper limit for massive particles. Electromagnetic energy has no upper limit for temperature and rate of propagation. That is, as the density of space increases, as in the initial instant of the big-bang, the speed of light approaches infinity.</p>
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		<title>By: Koshka</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/07/22/newsflash-gravity-is-now-a-little-weaker-mass-of-proton-a-bit-smaller/#comment-28600</link>
		<dc:creator>Koshka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=30587#comment-28600</guid>
		<description>Good, now let&#039;s hope it will help climate science geniuses narrow down the climate sensitivity uncertainty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good, now let&#8217;s hope it will help climate science geniuses narrow down the climate sensitivity uncertainty.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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