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	<title>Comments on: Weight of the World: The Ongoing Fight Over How to Define the Kilogram</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/</link>
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		<title>By: Gary B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32683</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 00:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32683</guid>
		<description>I wonder what other methods might be workable.  For example, what about measuring the deflection of a small sample containing a known number of atoms (it&#039;s easier to make a small pure sample than a large one) of a conductor in an electrical measuring field - say 1000 atoms - due to the force of impact of one particle, or a stream with a known number of particles per second, at a known speed-at-impact?  By analogy, like measuring how far one&#039;s baseball glove is deflected when the ball hits it.

Or using a small perfect sheet of graphene, and striking it with a known mass and velocity (similar to the above), then measuring the tensile force at the edge that results from the deflection.  This force would be multiplied by the triangulation of the deflection and the distance to the point struck, so would be easier to measure.  But it would have to take into account the amount of deformation and stretching that the graphene sheet would have.

I&#039;m making these up as I go along, so they may not be feasible.  I also keep thinking about how the Casimir force might be used to do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what other methods might be workable.  For example, what about measuring the deflection of a small sample containing a known number of atoms (it&#8217;s easier to make a small pure sample than a large one) of a conductor in an electrical measuring field &#8211; say 1000 atoms &#8211; due to the force of impact of one particle, or a stream with a known number of particles per second, at a known speed-at-impact?  By analogy, like measuring how far one&#8217;s baseball glove is deflected when the ball hits it.</p>
<p>Or using a small perfect sheet of graphene, and striking it with a known mass and velocity (similar to the above), then measuring the tensile force at the edge that results from the deflection.  This force would be multiplied by the triangulation of the deflection and the distance to the point struck, so would be easier to measure.  But it would have to take into account the amount of deformation and stretching that the graphene sheet would have.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m making these up as I go along, so they may not be feasible.  I also keep thinking about how the Casimir force might be used to do this.</p>
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		<title>By: PastaJoe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32682</link>
		<dc:creator>PastaJoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 04:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32682</guid>
		<description>@novotny,

You have actually given the reason why the Kilogram cannot be defined in terms of the Newton in your own (second) post. Namely, that the Newton is defined from the Kilogram.
To make a long story short, units can never be defined in terms of each other. There are very valid scientific reasons for this.
Also, as to your point about &quot;standard gravity&quot;, gravity will differ by a very small yet very real amount at different points on Earth. Fundamental units such as the Kilogram need to be measured independently at different points on Earth (and at different times). Using a correction factor (to account for the different readings given by a scale due to elevation changes, for example) is _not_ sufficient.
Fundamental units _must_ be measured using real (non-corrected),  _measured_ values that do _not_ change based on location (or time), so gravity cannot be used.

EDIT: Obviously, measured values will _always_ change by some tiny amount, regardless of what you do, but the very best measurements of the Kilogram are far less accurate than those of the meter and the speed of light. Trust me, the world&#039;s best scientists haven&#039;t simply been overlooking some simple solution to this problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@novotny,</p>
<p>You have actually given the reason why the Kilogram cannot be defined in terms of the Newton in your own (second) post. Namely, that the Newton is defined from the Kilogram.<br />
To make a long story short, units can never be defined in terms of each other. There are very valid scientific reasons for this.<br />
Also, as to your point about &#8220;standard gravity&#8221;, gravity will differ by a very small yet very real amount at different points on Earth. Fundamental units such as the Kilogram need to be measured independently at different points on Earth (and at different times). Using a correction factor (to account for the different readings given by a scale due to elevation changes, for example) is _not_ sufficient.<br />
Fundamental units _must_ be measured using real (non-corrected),  _measured_ values that do _not_ change based on location (or time), so gravity cannot be used.</p>
<p>EDIT: Obviously, measured values will _always_ change by some tiny amount, regardless of what you do, but the very best measurements of the Kilogram are far less accurate than those of the meter and the speed of light. Trust me, the world&#8217;s best scientists haven&#8217;t simply been overlooking some simple solution to this problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Dalke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32681</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Dalke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 07:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32681</guid>
		<description>@Jim H: Unless the water is isotopically pure (e.g., 16Oxygen and 1Hydrogen) then you&#039;ll be affected by the distribution of the isotopes. For example, 16O evaporates faster than 18O. Paleoclimatologists can even measure the changes in isotope over millions of years by looking at the isotope distribution in fossils. The error range based on non-isotopically pure elements make it impossible to use this definition as a precise standard.

Compare the average mass, of 15.9994(3)amu, to that of isotopically pure 16O, of 15.99491461956(16)amu. The (3) and (16) indicate the uncertainty. Clearly 1:1000000 from the average weight is not precise enough to be used as a mass standard since we are already able to measure some masses to one part in 10,0000,000,000,000

Still, it is possible to get isotopically pure water. The next question is, how do you get 1 cubic centimeter of it? Are you able to make a perfectly cubical container, such that the volume is off by no more than 1 part in 10,0000,000,000,000? Possibly. Though since it&#039;s a liquid you&#039;ll also have to worry about surface tension effects.

Then what about dissolved gasses in the water? The density of carbonated water is slightly higher than non-carbonated water, since it has the extra CO2 in the water. There&#039;s CO2 in the air, so your water sample&#039;s density will depend on the air around it.

The reason a sphere of isotopically pure silicon is proposed is in part because: 1) it&#039;s possible to make isotopically pure, 2) it&#039;s easier to make a sphere than a cube, and 3) it&#039;s a solid, and 4) it&#039;s easier to remove gasses and surface impurities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jim H: Unless the water is isotopically pure (e.g., 16Oxygen and 1Hydrogen) then you&#8217;ll be affected by the distribution of the isotopes. For example, 16O evaporates faster than 18O. Paleoclimatologists can even measure the changes in isotope over millions of years by looking at the isotope distribution in fossils. The error range based on non-isotopically pure elements make it impossible to use this definition as a precise standard.</p>
<p>Compare the average mass, of 15.9994(3)amu, to that of isotopically pure 16O, of 15.99491461956(16)amu. The (3) and (16) indicate the uncertainty. Clearly 1:1000000 from the average weight is not precise enough to be used as a mass standard since we are already able to measure some masses to one part in 10,0000,000,000,000</p>
<p>Still, it is possible to get isotopically pure water. The next question is, how do you get 1 cubic centimeter of it? Are you able to make a perfectly cubical container, such that the volume is off by no more than 1 part in 10,0000,000,000,000? Possibly. Though since it&#8217;s a liquid you&#8217;ll also have to worry about surface tension effects.</p>
<p>Then what about dissolved gasses in the water? The density of carbonated water is slightly higher than non-carbonated water, since it has the extra CO2 in the water. There&#8217;s CO2 in the air, so your water sample&#8217;s density will depend on the air around it.</p>
<p>The reason a sphere of isotopically pure silicon is proposed is in part because: 1) it&#8217;s possible to make isotopically pure, 2) it&#8217;s easier to make a sphere than a cube, and 3) it&#8217;s a solid, and 4) it&#8217;s easier to remove gasses and surface impurities.</p>
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		<title>By: ScrewThisTight</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32680</link>
		<dc:creator>ScrewThisTight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 18:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32680</guid>
		<description>How did they determine the &#039;pound&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did they determine the &#8216;pound&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: notovny</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32679</link>
		<dc:creator>notovny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 11:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32679</guid>
		<description>@John Lerch

The original title of the article was &quot;How Much Does a Kilogram Weigh? Ask Again in 2014&quot;  . Given that the Newton is defined from the kilogram I don&#039;t see that weight value changing . And the  standard Acceleration due to free-fall was defined in 1901 by the third conference of Weights And Measures, which also, coincidentally clarified that kilograms were units of mass.

@Jim H: The mass of a gram hasn&#039;t been defined by water for over  a century, as the article alludes. In fact, the mass of a cubic deciliter of Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water at 4C  is about 25 mg less than the IPK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John Lerch</p>
<p>The original title of the article was &#8220;How Much Does a Kilogram Weigh? Ask Again in 2014&#8243;  . Given that the Newton is defined from the kilogram I don&#8217;t see that weight value changing . And the  standard Acceleration due to free-fall was defined in 1901 by the third conference of Weights And Measures, which also, coincidentally clarified that kilograms were units of mass.</p>
<p>@Jim H: The mass of a gram hasn&#8217;t been defined by water for over  a century, as the article alludes. In fact, the mass of a cubic deciliter of Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water at 4C  is about 25 mg less than the IPK.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim H</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32678</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2012 00:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32678</guid>
		<description>One gram is defined by the mass of one cubic centimeter of water at 4C and standard temperature and pressure.  Not imprecise in the least.  Oxygen and hydrogen are pretty much universal constants, as far as I am aware.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One gram is defined by the mass of one cubic centimeter of water at 4C and standard temperature and pressure.  Not imprecise in the least.  Oxygen and hydrogen are pretty much universal constants, as far as I am aware.</p>
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		<title>By: NC Law</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32677</link>
		<dc:creator>NC Law</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2012 19:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32677</guid>
		<description>What is the level of disagreement between the two experiments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the level of disagreement between the two experiments?</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Mach</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32676</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Mach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2012 19:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32676</guid>
		<description>You think defining a kilogram is hard? Try metering optical power for a change! Or as wikipedia puts it: &quot;Optical Power Meter calibration and accuracy is a contentious issue.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You think defining a kilogram is hard? Try metering optical power for a change! Or as wikipedia puts it: &#8220;Optical Power Meter calibration and accuracy is a contentious issue.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Lerch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32675</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lerch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2012 14:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32675</guid>
		<description>Where&#039;s that standard gravity--New York, Bulgaria, Jupiter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s that standard gravity&#8211;New York, Bulgaria, Jupiter?</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2012/05/02/how-much-does-one-kilogram-weigh-ask-again-in-2014/#comment-32674</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2012 23:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/?p=36840#comment-32674</guid>
		<description>Is that gravitational mass or inertial mass?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is that gravitational mass or inertial mass?</p>
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