Comments on: In Shipwrecks, Women and Children Finished Last

By: jemand

jemand — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:55:24 +0000

I don’t think Jim and Chris get it.

The “women and children first” meme, has, for a long time, been used to DISMISS women’s rights issues in slow, day to day situations, where it is NOT zero sum. I.e., you don’t need the vote! Men will sacrifice to protect you, see the women and children first rule? Etc.

It had little to do with what actually happened, or even what SHOULD happen, but was a way to quiet women who were asking for equality in situations where there was no zero sum situation such as a limited lifeboat capacity in a doomed ship.

Even today, the Titanic is idolized in Christian patriarchy circles for exactly this reason, and is used as a throwaway sop to the feelings of women who, in the day to day of normal living, are expected to “submit” to their husbands and fathers, who’s “responsibilities” only come up in life or death situations such as shipwreck that aren’t likely to ever really HAPPEN.

By: Jim

Jim — Sun, 05 Aug 2012 12:31:38 +0000

@ Katherine : Pippa……To scold Chris for stating the truth, regardless how hypocritical it may or may not appear to be, doesn’t change the fact that it’s still the truth.

I’d like to think that I’m a good person and that in an emergency, I’d be the person that would stand my ground and assist others until the very last second before attempting escape, but until you’re in that situation…you don’t have a clue how you’ll react.

It’s easy to sit in comfort and state how you might or might not react in a life or death situation but the bottom line is…you don’t know. You might save a family member if their within arms length…maybe not. Survival instinct is a strong force to bend when it’s in full force, because at that moment, it is the correct thing to do, ” all social norms aside”.

By: Ty

Ty — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:52:37 +0000

@ Katherine — This! Thank you. I feel like this story didn’t consider physical ability AT ALL. I definitely think any crew member (man or woman) would have a much higher chance of survival because of their knowledge and skill.

By: Pippa

Pippa — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:05:56 +0000

Thank you Katherine – exactly what I would have said to Chris. I personally object to anyone, male or female, who bullies or pushes ahead of anyone perceived as being weaker than they are.
As for swimming ability – the one thing that has amazed me over time is research into this. Even now-a-days a huge proportion of (non recreational) sailors cannot swim. The crew would however have a better idea of the plan of the ship and availability of life supporting items – ie stuff likely to float.

By: Katherine

Katherine — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 06:02:31 +0000

@Chris — today’s feminists would probably not be in favor of “women and children first” for the reasons you outlined. They might also dislike being classed with children–it’s patronizing and limiting.

Please don’t make statements about anyone’s hypocrisy without at least citing some verifiable evidence. It’s unscientific and rude.

By: Katherine

Katherine — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 05:55:56 +0000

I hope the authors considered or controlled for swimming ability when they looked at survival. It could explain disproportionate survival with children (limited swimming ability) and pre-women’s-movement women (heavy skirts, limited swimming ability) and with crew members (probably knew how to swim).

Looking at the survival of women relative to men over time (later, women should know how to swim as well as men do) might show a trend that contradicts the main findings of the authors.

By: Chris

Chris — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 03:48:01 +0000

Children first, absolutely. Because they may not know what to do to help themselves.
But in this day and age, why should I give consideration to a woman, especially a stranger?

I find it hypocritical that women are always screaming for equality (and rightly so) until it’s no longer advantageous for them (like on a sinking ship).

You want equality?

Then you should fight EQUALLY hard to get to the lifeboat, just like I would be.

I personally would try to help anyone I could, but not at the expense of my own life…

The only woman or child I would put before my own life would be my wife and child.

All others (being “equal” and all) had better take it upon themselves to save their hide.

Why does everyone applaud the notion of “survival of the fittest” until there’s a woman involved?

By: azhure

azhure — Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:14:52 +0000

if only there is more life boats during titanic incident, i would love how the movie titanic ends

By: Man

Man — Tue, 31 Jul 2012 22:36:10 +0000

And if chivalry has not kicked the bucket yet, you can be sure I’ll kick its bucket at every opportunity. I happily help weaker friends when needed, regardless of sex. But in a crisis like the Titanic, it makes absolutely no sense for me to put the needs of women and children before my own needs.

By: Yllaria

Yllaria — Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:22:56 +0000

And that’s one point for Joe.