Before I get to today’s rant about astrology, let me first show you something about planets that’s real. This is a continuation of Monday’s and Tuesday’s entries, about Thursday’s conjunction of Venus and Jupiter. I’m taking a picture of the two planets every night to show them getting closer together. Every blog entry over the next few days will have all the images displayed so you can compare them. Here are the images with Tuesday night’s shot added:
| August 28, 2005 | August 29, 2005 |
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August 30, 2005 |
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It’s hard to get them framed the same way every night, but I’m trying to keep Jupiter (the fainter one to the upper left) more-or-less over that one medium-tall tree. As you can see, every night they get closer!
OK, now that you’ve had some actual astronomy, let’s move on to the antiscience, shall we?
Astrology is funny. Here is something which does not work, will not work, cannot be shown to work, can be shown not to work, and has no reason to work.
Yet, people believe in it.
I needn’t go into details here, since I’ve already written a page debunking it with all the detail you need. The bottom lines are that 1) there is no force that can work as astrology claims, 2) the claims of a force used by astrologers are internally inconsistent, and 3) totally ignoring any existing or non-existing force, tests have still shown that astrology doesn’t work.
Still, astrologers aren’t exactly starving. Sometimes it seems like there are 5 astrologers for every man, woman and child on Earth. They’re like bacteria, or those slugs in the garden that keep eating my roses.
Here’s an interesting question for anyone reading this who thinks astrology works (not likely, but I’m posing a thought question). Astrologers claim they can predict your future, or your personality type, or whatever, based on the position of the planets. They claim they can do this with great accuracy; 80-90% is not an uncommon number used by them. Every planet is important, from Mercury to Pluto. So the question is this: how come astrologers have never, not once, accurately predicted a previously unknown planet?
Astronomers (the scientists, the ones who have a reality-based existence) have recently discovered a largish object out past Pluto, and it’s definitely bigger than Pluto. Why didn’t astrologers predict it? Why didn’t they say, "You know, my predictions are always off by a bit. I bet there must be another planet out there, at such-and-such a distance and in this-and-that constellation." It seems like they’d notice after all these years that their predictions are off.
But they don’t. Like a tick or some parasite sitting on a blade of grass, they simply wait for real scientists to discover a new planet, and latch onto it like they knew it all along.
I made this point as clearly as I could to a New York Times reporter last week, for a report she was doing on how the new “planet” affects astrologers (free registration required to read it). Unfortunately, despite my giving her about a dozen juicy sound bites, she only used one, and it was a little lame.
Still, my point is relevant. She even says:
If [the newly discovered object] is a 10th planet, astrologers say it may have a profound influence over people’s lives, and thus on the forecasts astrologers make.
Let me put this very simply: if its effect may be profound, why didn’t they notice it before?
It gets funnier.
But its potency cannot be discerned until perhaps several years after the astronomical debate is settled, when astronomers have had time to chart its orbit. So astrologers are not inclined to do anything hasty. There will be no tearing up of charts, no hurriedly penciling in a new planet and certainly no crossing out of Pluto, a body that many astrologers hold near and dear.
On the contrary, astrologers seem to have reached an unspoken consensus to take a wait-and-see approach. Wait and see if there is a 10th planet.
What difference does it make if astronomers call it a planet or not? It is what it is, and it doesn’t care what we call it. It sounds like they’re saying that if a group of pointy-chinned astronomers meet in a room somewhere, and decide to indeed call this thing a planet, suddenly astrologers will have to include it in their charts. But if only black smoke appears, astrologers can rest easy knowing their horoscopes have been good all along.
Well, you can’t reasons someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Case in point:
Leigh Oswald, an astrologer in London, said unknown forces may determine when scientists discover new planets. “A planet is discovered when it’s appropriate for humanity to understand it,” she said. “In other words, when we are ready for it.”
Oh, barf. Unknown forces. Puh-leeze. It takes quite known forces: it takes time, it takes patience, it takes a good telescope and detector, and it takes science. Astrologers can sit in their parlors and gaze into whatever passes for their crystal balls, and the Universe will end before they ever make a single discovery. Except, of course, that there’s a sucker born every minute… and if that birth minute is known, there’ll be plenty of astrologers willing to cast a horoscope based on it.
August 30th, 2005 at 9:08 pm
BA wrote: ” Astrologers claim they can predict your future, or your personality type, or whatever, based on the position of the planets. They claim they can do this with great accuracy; 80-90% is not an uncommon number used by them. Every planet is important, from Mercury to Pluto. So the question is this: how come astrologers have never, not once, accurately predicted a previously unknown planet?”
I’m just playing along with this for fun, but you answered your own question. Up till now, the predictions were claimed to be 80-90% accurate. The inclusion of the previously unknown 10th planet in their calculations will simply make their predictions more accurate!
August 30th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
Your 29 August 2005 pic is labelled the same as the 28th. (I guess your captions, like astrology, are right only 80-90% of the time.
)
August 30th, 2005 at 9:51 pm
Thanks, I fixed it. I had fixed it before, but at some point must not have saved it when I thought I did.
August 31st, 2005 at 1:04 am
Asstrology more like
Astrologers are waiting on whether astronomers will call that new, large lump of rock a planet, because only then will it have an effect on people lives… (via the Bad Astronomy Blog).
“If…
August 31st, 2005 at 3:13 am
I once used Celestia (a free program that allows you to view space in 3D) to show an astrologer what our constellations look like at different points in the galaxy. I made sure that I zoomed right out beyond our galaxy so that the constellations became more and more meaningless…
A great teaching tool, but like many great teaching tools, it didn’t actually work…
August 31st, 2005 at 4:18 am
If astrology really did work, I would think there would be much better ways to use to make money than a hotline for $2.99/min hawked on late night tv. OK I could be wrong but If you could predict the future even to 75% accuracy out a few weeks you could make a fortune on wall st. So if astrology does work why haven’t all the astrologers gotten rich?
Just a thought
August 31st, 2005 at 6:15 am
Astrologers serve a valuable purpose; by stealing money from the gullible and leading them to senseless actions, they impair their ability to reproduce and thus over time raise the overall fitness of the human race.
At least that’s what I tell myself. I haven’t seen much evidence that the human race is getting smarter.
-Andy B
August 31st, 2005 at 6:49 am
Oh BLARGH. Astrologers are starting to make me seriously sick. It’s evident it’s a scam. Why do people believe it?
There’s that astrologer on the local radio here. She goes on and on with vague sayings that impress the women (Let’s unfortunately face it, it’s mostly a girl thing. :\ ) that mail her to thank her for her great predictions that are, of course, bogus. But! Her predictions are right. I’ll have money today. In fact, I just found a penny on the floor. Coincidence? I THINK NOT! wait… I think yes.
I’m aquarius, am I to blame for the rain we have today?
August 31st, 2005 at 7:12 am
Below is a brief history and the current Zodiac calendar from Wikipedia. There are 13 regular constellations annually but sometimes the Sun can transit 14 or 15 (sections of othrs such as Cetus or Orion).
Sp, if these Astrologers claim 70 – 80% accuracy, why are the Zodiac Signs and associated calendar they use over 3,000 years out of date?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac
The familiar “star sign”, or more precisely the “sun sign”, under which a person is born refers to the position of the sun in the signs on the tropical ecliptic at the time of his or her birth. Because of the precession of the equinoxes over the last three thousand years or so, the signs are out of phase with the astronomical constellations for which they are named by about a month. A few modern western astrologers, in common with those of India, cast horoscopes with reference to the actual constellations, rather than the signs. This is known as sidereal astrology.
The concept of the zodiac was originated by the Babylonians certainly before 2000 BC as a method of visualizing the passage of time. The zodiac worked as a symbolic calendar. It was divided into twelve parts as suggested by the appearance of 12 moons in a year. The signs are geometric divisions of the celestial sphere, each corresponding to one twelfth of a year.
The signs of the zodiac, as enumerated by Egyptian astronomer, Ptolemy, in the 2nd-century AD, are the ones we know today. The same names are used for both signs in astrology and for constellations in astronomy, but it’s important to make a distinction between signs and constellations. Signs are geometric sections, each 30° wide, corresponding with particular periods of time of the year, but which don’t necessarily physically correspond with the constellations of the same name.
Sign Symbol Astronomical Dates(as of AD 2000)
Aries ram April 19 – May 13
Taurus bull May 14 – June 20
Gemini twins June 21 – July 20
Cancer crab July 21 – August 10
Leo lion August 11 – September 16
Virgo virgin September 17 – October 30
Libra scale October 31 – November 22
Scorpio scorpion November 23 – November 29
Ophiuchus snake wrestler November 30 – December 17
Sagittarius archer December 18 – January 18
Capricornus goat January 19 – February 15
Aquarius water February 16 – March 11
Pisces fish March 12 – April 18
August 31st, 2005 at 7:43 am
The problem in astrology in my opinion is not of the practicing astrologers, rather the people wanting to pay for their service. Excuse me for pointing this out and potentially offending someone, but I find too many similarities to prostitution. As long as there is demand, there will be someone to supply what people are looking for…
August 31st, 2005 at 8:11 am
Astrology, like religion, exists so people can abrogate their personal responsibility for their actions and their lives as well as helping them deal (perhaps ineffectively, but they don’t know or choose not to know that) with things that are actually beyond their control.
Bob didn’t get fired from his job because he’s an incompetent curmudgeon, he got fired because Uranus and Saturn’s unknown forces acting the constellation Taurus Excreta created an “unexpected turn of events at work today”… Totally beyond his ability to do anything about it because how it is when you get a burr up Uranus (sorry, couldn’t resist). Diane’s kids, playing with a lighter due to shortcomings in her parental abilities, burned down the row house she lived in killing 6 people, but it’s not her fault or her kids’ fault, it was an Invisible Pink Unicorn’s plan for those poor souls.
It gives people comfort, I suppose, not having to take responsibility for and control of their own lives. It’s like drugs that way, and I think it even ruins lives like drugs, but sadly, it’s not illegal like drugs.
What’s scary is that there are so many people in so many “advanced” nations that still buy into this stuff.
August 31st, 2005 at 8:25 am
I’ve always wondered… how do astrologers reconcile the fact that about every 331 million years, give or take based on current revolution times, all the planets (including pluto) actually line up in a perfect line all on the same side of the sun, and that this must have happened more than a dozen times since the start of the solar system.
The earth obviously hasn’t exploded, although at some point the Age of Idiocy was ushered in.
August 31st, 2005 at 8:32 am
The real question is: What happens to Astrologers when the IAU decides that Pluto is not a planet, due to its size and distance?
August 31st, 2005 at 8:33 am
Evolving Squid:
MY religion/faith holds me personally responsible for my actions. But besides that wrinkle, I agree with most of what you say.
CJSF
August 31st, 2005 at 9:04 am
Evolving Squid,
Planets never get aligned on a “perfect” line. Read some of the articles on the main site, including this one.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planets.html
August 31st, 2005 at 9:08 am
Events in my life have led me to believe virtually without a doubt that there is SOME type of “fate” or what have you not unlike that which astrologers claim exist.
But I find it unfortunate that astrologers feel the need to shroud this phenomenon in mythology and pretend that our celestial neighbors are somehow making it happen. As Chet just pointed out, that idea is absurd.
I find it even stranger that many astrologers for whatever reason seem to believe that they actually have a decent enough understanding of the workings of this mechanism to use it foresee future events. If fate exists, it will eventually be proven to by science, and if and when that happens, whatever explanation scientists find for it will make a hell of a lot more sense than a bunch of celestial objects that hang around the ecliptic plane lording over our destinies with an iron fist.
August 31st, 2005 at 9:16 am
Here’s a good plan to get rid of those slugs BA: Put some beer in pie pans, and put them outside. The slugs drink the beer and die, I believe
As for getting rid of the asstrologers…you’ve got me.
August 31st, 2005 at 9:18 am
Planets revolve in nearly circular ellipses at different speeds in pretty much the same plane, they MUST, from time to time, all line up. Based on a back-of-the-napkin calculation, this takes place about every 331 millionish years, I think.
For demonstration purposes, Mercury revolves every 88 days. Venus revolves every 224 days. Because Mercury goes faster than Venus it must pass it in orbit, hence the two planets “line up” on the same side of the sun. Similarly, they both revolve faster than the earth, so one could reasonably expect that every few years, a situation would occur where mercury is passing venus when venus is passing earth, and the three planets would be “lined up” on the same side of the sun. Every year and a bit, the Earth passes Mars… from time to time, that must occur when Venus is passing the Earth and Mercury is passing Venus, and so on out to wherever you want to take it. I’ll entertain reasoning why this wouldn’t be true, but it seems to make sense from a physics and mathematics point of view.
It definitely does happen, just not very often. Of course, it doesn’t do anything significant except, perhaps, looking kind of cool to an observer, but it does happen.
CF:
Yes, your religion may hold you personally responsible for your actions. But not all religions do, nor do all interpretations of all religions. The expression “the devil made me do it” wasn’t coined as a joke. But you’re right, I was generalizing a bit to make a point.
August 31st, 2005 at 9:43 am
Evolving Squid, the planets don’t all orbit on the same plane. Most are close, but even so it’s enough that they never fall exactly in a line.
Perhaps that’s being pedantic though. They do get close together, even if it’s not perfect. But it’s incredibly rare. I’d need to do the math, but your 300 million years sounds about right. It depends on what you define as your area of the sky; if it’s a 90 degree swath it happens more often then if you want all the planets to be in a 10-degree circle.
August 31st, 2005 at 9:43 am
It comes down to basic geometry and some orbital mechanics. Yes, you are right that two planets align on the same side of the Sun (I would guess that you mean they are on a line that also passes throgh the center of the Sun). This is called inferior or superior conjuction depening on which planets are involved. you can read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_conjunction
However for more than 2 planets to lie on a line also passing through the Sun is never quite possible, unless you introduce some tolerance, which mathematically means that there is no perfect alignment. The reason is that the ratios of orbital periods of planets are irrational numbers (although Neptune to Pluto is 2:3 (if you consider Pluto a planet) and Jupiter and Saturn are pretty close to 5:9, but not quite).
August 31st, 2005 at 10:03 am
Yes, there would have to be some tolerance for the fact that the planets don’t quite lay (lie?) in the exact same plane, but every 300 million years or so they have to come within a very narrow band (1 degree? maybe less? sitting here without some good software it’s hard to make much more than a guess).
What I actually had in mind was if you projected the planetary positions/orbits into a single plane – effectively fudging it into a 2-D system (which is what most astrologers do, I think), then you should be able to draw a line from the centre of the sun through the centre of all the projected planets, or if not a line, a quite narrow triangle that encompasses them all. 9 planets (if you count Pluto) in 90 degrees isn’t really so much an alignment as a celestial baseball game with a big fat ump at the corner. 1 degree of separation and most people would consider that “lined up”.
It’s also quite fair to say it hasn’t happened in recorded history, and is almost certainly probably not goign to happen within the expected lifetime of humanity in the future, but it has happened, of that I am certain.
The 90 degree thing makes me think there’s some new astrology there we can make money off. The sun is in “Seattle Seahawks” today. Rain will dampen the northeast. A well placed bet returns good fortune. Now’s a good time to take up swimming or diving in southern climes. 10% of the people you meet today will be southpaws. Your lucky number is “e”.
August 31st, 2005 at 10:05 am
Bah, seahawks are football. I meant Mariners, honest.
August 31st, 2005 at 10:32 am
Someone gave me an old copy of the magazine Night Sky which has an article by you debunking astrology and showing that the astrological dates don’t match up with the real dates. Keep up the good work.
August 31st, 2005 at 1:08 pm
The desire to be ‘right’ at all costs is mankinds greatest problem. Let people believe what they want. If they started lobbying for astrology to be taught in high school science it would be a different matter, but they are not.
August 31st, 2005 at 1:10 pm
“Old”? That article was only a few months ago! But thanks.
August 31st, 2005 at 1:22 pm
Samara, BA – Yes, that is the best way to get rid of slugs (it is completely organic). I do not know if the slugs prefer any particular type of beer, but I found quite malty ones with not too much CO2 work very well. Theakston’s Old Peculiar seemed to be particularly effective (but I don’t know if it is availble outside the UK).
Plus, you get to watch the blackbirds get trolleyed when they eat the pickled slugs!!!!
Evolving Squid – from what I understand of orbital mechanics, and the orbits of the planets in particular, the 9 planets will never all line up unless you make it a 2D projection. If I got this right, Neptune and Pluto are in a 3:2 resonance, and whenever Pluto approaches Neptune (as observed from above the plane of the ecliptic) coincides with Pluto’s largest deviation from the plane of the ecliptic (i.e. the “high” and “low” points of its orbit with respect to the ecliptic plane). I’m sure someone can correct me if I got this wrong.
August 31st, 2005 at 1:37 pm
“The desire to be ‘right’ at all costs is mankinds greatest problem.”
ITYM “Man’s desire to believe he is right is much stronger than his desire to be right.”
August 31st, 2005 at 1:48 pm
Nigel Depledge Says: Theakston’s Old Peculiar seemed to be particularly effective (but I don’t know if it is availble outside the UK).
It is, but mostly in British pub type establishments, not stores. Wonderful brew for those that enjoy eating their beer with a spoon!
- Jack
August 31st, 2005 at 1:50 pm
re:tsg
Well, assuming an arsitotelian perspective, there is no difference.
August 31st, 2005 at 6:11 pm
I always ask the question what happens when a new comet or asteroid is discovered? Doesn’t that change the horoscope? I also mention that the gravitational pull of the planets is less than the gravtitational pull of the person standing right next to you and I throw in precession too.
I also explain that alignments happen every year and go on to give examples say Venus & Jupiter or Venus & Saturn etc.
But, it really doesn’t matter because if they want to believe it they will believe it.
I guess it’s akin to the phenomena called ” The willing suspension of disbelief” that enables all of us to enjoy of book or a movie except that some folks never seem able to quite turn it off!:)
August 31st, 2005 at 6:27 pm
Wikipedian, there’s no need to insult prostitutes by comparing them to astrologers.
At least with the oldest profession, everything is above board and both parties know what they are getting into.
And I only watch Cathouse: The Series in order to spot Bad Astronomy items. Really.
August 31st, 2005 at 7:06 pm
There’s a thing that bugs me…when and if they get around to figuring out what qualifies as a planet, and let’s say pluto, or planet x isn’t a planet. How in God’s name are the astrologers going to factor that in?
August 31st, 2005 at 8:46 pm
Samara,
You know that really is funny!
August 31st, 2005 at 8:49 pm
The best way to defeat astrology, is rarely scientific. They cannot allow themselves to think rationally. Mainly, they’ve believed something so long, they’re taking it at blind faith, just as religion does. Astrology in fact, is no different then religion in that respects. However, attacking their point of view in a non-astronomical sense is extremely effective. Their core beliefs have more to do with people, then astronomical objects. Therefore, the easiest way to debunk astrologer’s claims is through pointing out the difference between identical twins. Their beliefs in cosmic forces conspiring to create an individual is severely conflicted when you point out the differences in behavior between two identical twins.
But regardless of what’s done, trying to lower ourselves to the level of these simpletons is extremely trying and frustrating. It seems like a perpetual conversation with an infant. You know your words are being registered as sound by the brain, but as to any understanding or even a flash of momentary insight, there’s absolutely nothing being processed. Sometimes, I think if I spent as much time lecturing my dog in science, he’ll have a greater grasp then at least 35% of the public.
August 31st, 2005 at 10:52 pm
People have no doubt seen the sad news from New Orleans.
It was pointed out on the TV this morning that scientists predicted in an article from nearly 4 years ago pretty much exactly what has happened.
I haven’t heard of any astrologers making any such predictions even now.
I sometimes wonder how astrologers can look at themselves in the mirror…
September 1st, 2005 at 5:44 am
Not only do the planets “mystically” reveal themselves, but somehow thye “mystically” get astronomers to name them so the name reflects their astrological attributes, see these articles on Chrion “The wounded healrer” and Sedna
As Phil said “Oh, Pleeeease”, astrologers agonising over names give to brandnew objects by astronomers, how much lower can you go.
September 1st, 2005 at 9:59 am
Nigel:
You are right, I just wasn’t clear in my initial posting
Astrology has actually had an indirect, but tangible impact on my life… not because I buy into it (obviously, I don’t), but because my mother does. Some years ago, she visited a psychic/astrologer/nutbag who told her that her oldest son (me) would die in his 34th year. She relayed this news to me (I was 33 at the time).
Now, it didn’t bother me, but it sure got to her. She was a stress puppy about this for months. Of course, I’m 40 now, so it was obviously bunk, not that anyone here really needs to have that explained.
So she wasted money, got months of stress, and ended up looking like a doofus, while annoying the bejeezus out of me with constant checking up to make sure I’m OK. That’s astrology at work for you. It IS harmful.
September 1st, 2005 at 10:49 am
Beer does work to get rid of slugs (and snails, and earwigs), but there’s another way to do it without wasting a beer (oh, the humanity!). Mix water, sugar, and a little bit of yeast together. If you do it in the morning, you should see it start to foam up by late afternoon. You can even top it off with more sugar and water a couple days later.
September 1st, 2005 at 2:21 pm
Leon Baradat – hmmm, I’m not sure what the distinction is there. Surely you end up with something that’s a bit like beer (although, of course, it won’t taste like any beer I’ve ever had before). Besides, if you leave sugar water lying around in the garden, you might attract animals you don’t want to.
Peter B – I suspect astrologers can look in the mirror in the same way that used-car salesmen can …
September 2nd, 2005 at 8:11 am
I recall someone years ago listing “astrological catastrophies.” These were major items that, if astrology had any real, predictive capability, would have been predicted. Like Princess Di’s death. And now New Orleans. And 9/11. Gotta watch out for post facto predictions. Don’t get me started on Jeanne Dixon and President Kennedy’s assassination. Oh and what happened in 1930 after the discovery of Pluto? Did all the astrologers then admit that all of their predictions before were wrong because of Pluto not being known? Nah.
September 19th, 2005 at 9:36 pm
I suggest naming a “new” planet after an ancient person with a sound perspective of things like Democritus for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democritus
I live in a province with a huge slug problem, we even call them “murder slugs”. Anyone who got their garden massacred by them knows why.
I don’t know what will eat astrologers, we need to keep looking…
For slug removal I suggest a tame goose, IF your neighbours don’t complain to much. If they do, offer to lend them your goose to clean out their garden as well.
September 20th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
I was shopping at WalMart this past weekend and saw “Astrology for Dummies” at the sales counter. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.