Wait, a Wahhabist group dislikes the Saudi government for being Wahhabist? I’m confused. You are correct that many Saudi’s don’t like their government, and don’t like the U.S. for supporting the current Saudi government. I’m not so certain you are correct about the factors about that government that they don’t like, however.

Extremists don’t like the U.S. for a number of reasons. We push our agenda on other countries, we use our military might to push them around. We support dictators and kings against the will of the people when it is advantageous to our country. Our government is secular, and specifically not Islamic. Our culture is very open and to their mindset decadent and sinful.

>…the first thing to do is stop supporting totalitarian regimes like the monarchy in Saudi Arabia, which is undemocratic in itself, and the support of which continues to draw fire from many reformers.

That is true, it is rather hypocritical of the U.S. to be celebrating bringing democracy to Iraq when we are a large part of maintaining the current Saudi monarchy. If spreading democracy is so important, why isn’t Bush leaning on the Saudi’s for democratic reforms?

To impose “Their” version of Islam on everyone that does not believe by returning to the 14th Century “Caliphate”, a return, in a sense to The Ottoman Empire.

I also must ask: just what is the flying spaggetti monster thing anyway?

Then, Osama decided to choose violence. In the end it’s all pretty oxymoronic, as it will be self-defeating, but the first thing to do is stop supporting totalitarian regimes like the monarchy in Saudi Arabia, which is undemocratic in itself, and the support of which continues to draw fire from many reformers.

“You were DEAD RIGHT and don’t let anyone tell you differently”

You must not have read the letter. The letter poses two questions.”(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?” and “Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? ”

The answer to Q1 : Because you attacked us and continue to attack us. As part of the answer to Q2, 12 paragraphs down, talking about how we are the “worst” nation…is the line you quote. Pretty thin reed.

Anyway, the only reason to care why OSBL attacked is to consider how to turn people away from these attacks in the future. He needs to be hunted down and killed, but WE REALLY CANT just go around and kill everyone because they feel oppressed and angry….and may become a terrorist.

And we can’t do it because we are depressed and angry…and want to get our hands on oil.

Irishman, Nigel you see that our goverments are out of control.

> (ABC’s “Good Morning America�, Sep 4th, co-host Bill Weir even stated “there are no atheists in hurricane zones or foxholes�),

geez…another idiot…I’m gonna send this over to Eschaton

You said: “And I told her: there are many reasons they hate us, but one of them is because of the Constitution.”

Here are Bin Laden’s reasons why we are his enemyhttp://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

There are many, but here is one:

>(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah
>of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your
>own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from
>your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms
>Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.

You were DEAD RIGHT and don’t let anyone tell you differently.

HvP said “I choose to always bear sole responsibility for any decision which might force me to take a human life.” Good for you. All too often these days, people refuse to accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Chet, I’m inclined to agree with you to a certain extent. Islam is not a monolithic religion, but many subdivisions with a wide diversity of opinions. A little like Christianity in that respect. And look at what was done in Northern Ireland in the name of catholicism or protestantism in the 1970s and 1980s.

Kevin, yes, I agree : one result of 9/11 is that the USA is not as free as one might wish. I think it is some time next year that a new requirement comes into effect : a visitor from the UK to the USA will need a visa unless they carry a passport that includes biometric information. Big Brother is watching you. Oh, yes, and, for different reasons, the police in the UK have the power to take a DNA sample from anyone who is arrested (whether they are charged or not, and whether they consent or not) and keep that information in a secret national database. Forever. Which is fine as long as everyone plays by the rules, but one thing I know about human nature is that people break rules.

Truly was it said “the price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.

The point being made was that there is not “a USAian”, but rather a diverse population with lots of differences in culture, ideas, and beliefs. Basically any attitude or belief of Americans in general may not apply in any specific individual case.

Chet Said:
>Irishman stated: “Except for the fact we don’t think the Constitution was “the divinely inspired word of God�. We recognize that it was crafted by humans and is not perfect and subject to change when required. At least many of us do.�
Not quite true, Irishman.

Well, I did apply a caveat at the end. Yes, some people do think the Constitution is the culmination of God’s plan.

>I had put a “Pledge to the US Constitution� on my office ’s exit door with the applicable amendments and statutes and the Preamble “We the People do hereby ordain and establish.. Not God.�
>One of the national guardsmen I work for read this and complained to the commander (not to me) that he was offended by the “Not God�. Therefore, I was asked to remove it from my exit door.

I would have pointed to the nearest person displaying an “One Nation Under God” sticker or a prayer on the wall or whatever was convenient in a confrontational religious display and demanded it be removed, too. Fair is fair.

> (ABC’s “Good Morning America�, Sep 4th, co-host Bill Weir even stated “there are no atheists in hurricane zones or foxholes�),

Funny if said the other way how many christians would have decried how intolerant, insensitive, and bigoted the remark was, but think it only natural in the way it was said. If someon were to say, “Why bother praying, God wasn’t listening,” he’d get so slammed.

er..no…They arrived after we invaded. Our real reasons may have been:

“The United States invaded Iraq for a number of reasons. For some members of the Bush administration, it was probably a way to reshape the politics of the Middle East; for others, it was an opportunity to enhance Israeli security. One of the least-discussed reasons was to assure order in the international petroleum market. Perhaps this objective is rarely mentioned because it’s obvious, or maybe because no discussion was necessary among decision-makers well versed in petroleum politics.

But one should not believe that the United States would occupy a country with the world’s second largest reserves of petroleum without considering the effect of that act on the world’s most important commodity. On the other hand, one cannot believe that the United States would ever articulate its objectives in terms that most would regard as vulgar and commercial. We now know that the evidence of an “imminent” attack by Iraq was flimsy, and known to be so at the time by the intelligence community. The threat to the stability of the international petroleum market, however, was real.”

You say: “BTW, I don’t think God made unintelligent designs” so that means…you do think the Flying Noodle Monster made intelligent designs? May his/her noodly appendage stroke you to bliss.

To get back on thread, I only wish that the Constitution will keep us free. We are quickly giving our government uncontrolled police state powers. I am now subject to warrantless searches each time I go to work.
so much for “Why the government needs to go to extraordinary lengths to snoop around inside your house, your car, your body” NYC Cops can search anyone trying to enter a public building or public transit means.

We are filmed, observed and monitored with ez-pass and metro card and Patriot Act. The coercive power of the state is increasing rapidly. We are losing our freedoms at home and we have always been at war with OCEANIA.

2) Saying “Saddam killed his own people so it is OK for us to kill them too” is not good logic:P. Think a little bit before you post something like that next time. In certain ways the Iraqi people are (will be) better off than they were before, but in other ways things are much worse than before the invasion. Still, I am hopeful that things will get better rather than worse. Worse would NOT be a good thing.

3) OBL is the figurehead for Al Qaeda. He doesn’t create military plans on his own, or even make significant decisions. He is basically a spiritual leader. His lieutenants are the ones who make the real decisions.

4) I don’t believe people hate the US because it is power. I harbour a mild, generalized dislike of the US because they are bigger than Canada, and therefore they bully us around a good deal, but that is only natural. The real dislike of the US comes from certain actions taken by the various governments of the US. It isn’t possible to point to any one administration (although GWB is a good place to start;)) because everyone has different opinions on what is a positive or negative decision. Some people view the Iraq war as horrid, others think that the US is evil because abortion is legal. As others have stated, a good potion of the Islamic dislike for the US is a dislike for some western values and beliefs, and the US is the biggest target in the list (not freedom inparticlar, because everyone wants to be free to espouse the virtues of THEIR beliefs LOL).

I find it most interesting that both sides of this culture war technically belong to religions that teach peace and self control above all else, yet both sides are screaming bloody murder at each other and threatening to attack with every weapon they can lay their hands on. It just shows how far religious people will go to force their own beliefs down the throats of others.

BTW, I don’t think God made unintelligent designs. Really, have we yet to compare our technology to that of nature? I mean, all the information to build your entire body can be found in just one of your cells. Which is probably why there is so much “junk” DNA, actually, most cells don’t need all of it. How much can we store on a pinhead? Of course, it would be totally awsome if future technology had computers that stored information on strands of DNA, just imagine the memory capacities. Awesome.
Sorry, I ramble on, I spend to much time thinking.

Well yeah…and it would have been great if this administration had some other interests than the right-wing and the OIL Interests /Halliburtons of this insular leadership. The conception, execution and foundation of the American invasion of IRAQ was flawed and has failed. Many posts point to neo-con desires to destabilize the middle east and bring down all the Islamic regimes.

Geez well in a perfect world everyone would be “free” and have everything they want. We started this on the cheap and on borrowed money and have nothing good to show for all those dead boys and girls and all that wasted cash sucked up by the war machine. Saddam would have been killed or died sooner our later. Why not invade all those lously countries that piss us off? Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Yemen, Syria…heck invade Somalia again. Bush had a “grand scheme” promoted by lies and now iit all in ruin.

BA – great to talk to your child in any event. And best to keep it simple, but the “American Way of Life” line is too close to propaganda to accept. Fall back on the “there are many reasons and not all of them clear” line.

A U.S. bomber pilot and an Islamic suicide bomber do have at least one thing in common. They have both decided to take life based on the responsibility of someone else’s orders rather than on the deliberation of their own conscience.

If there is one thing that would prevent me from ever joining the military it is the fact that I choose to always bear sole responsibility for any decision which might force me to take a human life. Never – NEVER – would I let another person make that decision for me.

And that is the comparison I make. Indeed, many people on both sides do seem quite comfortable letting their commanders choose who they should kill. It’s all the same after all – they are all the enemy, right? Apparently in their minds simply holding an ideology that seems threatening is sufficient reason for condemning a person to death – never mind if those individuals haven’t actually committed any crime or anything.

OK, BA, good post. And I agree with you in principle.

There’s obviously been a lot of strong reactions for and against, but I don’t have time today to read all of them.

Overall, my understanding of 9/11 (and, more recently, of 7/7, as they are starting to call the attacks in London) is that it was as much to do with western imperialist interference in the Middle East as anything else. Go back 100 years – the Ottoman Empire was top dog in that region. During the First World War, Britain supported the arabs in fighting the Turks, but only because it suited us. In effect, we used them for our own ends. After WWII, the state of Israel was created. Within 10 years, Israel was fighting one war after another, and neither Britain nor the US did anything to intervene (except to carry on selling tanks, guns and munitions). After the Shah of Iran was replaced by Ayatollah Khomeni (sp?), when the Iran-Iraq war started, both the US and Britain supported Iraq, despite the atrocities committed. But when Saddam turned around and invaded Kuwait (a rich, oil-producing country friendly to the US), we suddenly took a greater interest.

It would be extrememly hypocritical for us to be surprised about the attacks.

HvP – according to the latest research, there is nothing distinctive about a muslim suicide bomber. It is just a question of conditioning. Look at the conflict in Vietnam : US pilots were quite relaxed about dropping huge quantities of high explosive on rural communities, because they believed they were fighting for democracy.

One last thought, which is something that Bill Bryson once wrote about the US’s attitude to the rest of the world. Any visitor to the US can watch their own country disappear – just by picking up a newspaper.

As far as I can see, you are doing the right thing.
My hat’s off to you for even trying to raise a child these days. Although I am not a father I do have a wonderful nephew & niece.

I think what is really important is to teach young people the ability to think clearly,rationally & logically because I truly believe many of the social arguements that we are having are due to the simple fact that many of us ignore simple logic.

Paul said, “However, just the sheer number of opinions shows that the situation is not really understood.”

Is there anyoneleft who can see this stuff for what it is?

Paul, the number of opinions is the result of ideology. It’s the result of people who cannot think outside of a little tiny box that they have constructed for their minds. People like Chet. His last post is a textbook indicator of the rabid ideologue. There’s dozens of accusations blasted out in a shotgun approach. They do this because they know no one will ever bother to sit down and refute every point, so in their minds, in their little boxes, they “win” the argument by default.

And if you are going to preach about scientific method, don’t start your post with a strawman argument. Just a suggestion.

Our nation was built on a framework specifically constructed to allow each individual to worship God in any way he or she sees fit ….or not to at all. Part of this was a knee-jerk reaction to King George being the head of the church of England and that is called seperation of church & state.

We do live in a nation that is Christian though but that does not mean that all Christians are of the “Fundamentalist” varieity. For you only have to look at some of these
“Fundamentalist” leaders like Pat Robertson & Jerry (Barney the Purple Dinosaur is Gay & so are other puppets) Falwell or Congressman Tom DeLay to realize that they are not living a “Christian” life.

Having said that, I do not think that posting “Not Christian” is a very smart thing to do. Why be “outwardly” different?

Just do your job to the best of your ability and I think you will find that no one is going to force you to “believe”.