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	<title>Comments on: Speaking out against antiscience</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Maksutov</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7515</link>
		<dc:creator>Maksutov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7515</guid>
		<description>Dear Sticks,

It all comes down to this:

Humanity (or at least the more inquiring portion of it) has always tried to figure out the Universe. One of the first and most popular methodologies was something called religion, where the Universe was imagined to be under the control of various deities and their doings, interpreted by a priest-class.

This seemed to work quite well (although with statistical insignificance or negative results) until c. the 1500s, when observational data began to show that many of the occurrences previously attributed to deities could instead be completely explained by the actions of natural forces. Those natural forces could be explained by observed evidence and mathematical processing thereof. In short, they didn&#039;t have to be &quot;believed on &#039;faith&#039;&quot;.

As the natural sciences investigated more areas, the &quot;God idea&quot;, a human invention, diminished to the point where it was (thankfully) banished from the arena. Truly natural science had/has no need for invocations of the supernatural.

The current problem is that humanity, for the most part, has no problem accepting the benefits of the new, well-proved scientific methodology, but insists on clinging to its now obsolete religious methodologies.

The sooner we relegate those obsolete, ineffectual, superstition-based religious methodologies to the trash bin, the better off we we will be as a species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Sticks,</p>
<p>It all comes down to this:</p>
<p>Humanity (or at least the more inquiring portion of it) has always tried to figure out the Universe. One of the first and most popular methodologies was something called religion, where the Universe was imagined to be under the control of various deities and their doings, interpreted by a priest-class.</p>
<p>This seemed to work quite well (although with statistical insignificance or negative results) until c. the 1500s, when observational data began to show that many of the occurrences previously attributed to deities could instead be completely explained by the actions of natural forces. Those natural forces could be explained by observed evidence and mathematical processing thereof. In short, they didn&#8217;t have to be &#8220;believed on &#8216;faith&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
<p>As the natural sciences investigated more areas, the &#8220;God idea&#8221;, a human invention, diminished to the point where it was (thankfully) banished from the arena. Truly natural science had/has no need for invocations of the supernatural.</p>
<p>The current problem is that humanity, for the most part, has no problem accepting the benefits of the new, well-proved scientific methodology, but insists on clinging to its now obsolete religious methodologies.</p>
<p>The sooner we relegate those obsolete, ineffectual, superstition-based religious methodologies to the trash bin, the better off we we will be as a species.</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7513</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7513</guid>
		<description>Svensun Said:
&gt;What is all the panic about? All this breathless moaning and groaning, wailing and mourning over ONE idea, promoted by ONE little institute, going up against the untold legions of Darwinists in this country? NOT ONE university science department, or even ONE high school biology department, controlled by a majority of IDâ€™ers, and yet all we see and hear is â€˜the sky is fallingâ€™, â€˜the Bible-thumpers are comingâ€™!

Except that itâ€™s not just â€œONE ideaâ€? promoted by â€œONE little instituteâ€?.  Countering Evolution is only the first stop of the ID proponents on their trip to put christianity into the school curriculum.  This particular topic is Evolution, because it has been a hot button topic ever since its introduction, but biology in only the starting point.  Theyâ€™re looking to cosmology (where admittedly thereâ€™s more philosophy than science in some respects) and then astronomy, and eventual targets are all the Creationist favorites of radiological dating, geology, etc.  And while the major voice of ID is the Discovery Institute, they are gathering support from many sources â€“ among them groups like the ICR and other creationist organizations.  They have broad public appeal largely due to an underlying public affinity for the position they are promoting and because of their methods of obscuring their intent behind innocuous sounding â€œscientificâ€? arguments.

&gt;Get a grip, people. If you really had confidence that you have the truth on your side, then what in the heck are you worried about? Unless, perhaps, you doubt that you have you have the truthâ€¦

Or perhaps what weâ€™re worried about is that the decisions are being made not on a scientific level by scientists, but on a political level by school board members and voting publics and elected officials like, say, President Bush.  Weâ€™re talking about issues affecting us on a social and political level every bit as much as weâ€™re talking about the science behind Evolution and/or ID.

&gt;More likely, the panic is a reflection of more basic instincts. As it is often said, follow the money. I think many Darwinists are worried about the sinecures of their jobs, grants, laboratories, etc. They have a lock on all that funding now, but any new theory poses a dangerous threat to that monopoly, a competitor for those jobs and grants. We all know how hierarchical and competitive the world of academe can be, and the threat of losing money just makes its ugly side worse.

I canâ€™t argue that funding issues affect decisions and motivations, but do you have any evidence to support this bold assertion, or is this just guessing on your part?

&gt;Part of this is also quite obviously one of dogmatic belief, as well. Scientific materialism is now the established religion of our academic elite, and any challenge to itâ€™s basic underpinnings is a threat not to be taken lightly, obviously. In these debates, Iâ€™m afraid the Darwinian establishment comes off sounding a lot more like Torquemada than Galileo.

Youâ€™re welcome to your opinion, but that doesnâ€™t make it right. Scientific materialism has one advantage behind it that canâ€™t be said for any alternatives â€“ duplicable accurate results.  Everything from automobiles to electric lights to the internet is based upon scientific materialism. Scientific materialism has brought us such advances in medicine as antibiotics, vaccines, insulin therapy for diabetes, and even surgery.  If you want to indulge in homeopathic non-medicine, Therapeutic (non)Touch, spinal manipulation to relieve diabetes and cancer, Facilitated (non)Communication, smoking incense, wearing crystals and/or plastic bracelets, e-meter â€œclearingâ€?, and faith â€œhealingâ€?, youâ€™re welcome to it, too.  Me, I like my medicine to be connected to reality. And I like my science to actually work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Svensun Said:<br />
&gt;What is all the panic about? All this breathless moaning and groaning, wailing and mourning over ONE idea, promoted by ONE little institute, going up against the untold legions of Darwinists in this country? NOT ONE university science department, or even ONE high school biology department, controlled by a majority of IDâ€™ers, and yet all we see and hear is â€˜the sky is fallingâ€™, â€˜the Bible-thumpers are comingâ€™!</p>
<p>Except that itâ€™s not just â€œONE ideaâ€? promoted by â€œONE little instituteâ€?.  Countering Evolution is only the first stop of the ID proponents on their trip to put christianity into the school curriculum.  This particular topic is Evolution, because it has been a hot button topic ever since its introduction, but biology in only the starting point.  Theyâ€™re looking to cosmology (where admittedly thereâ€™s more philosophy than science in some respects) and then astronomy, and eventual targets are all the Creationist favorites of radiological dating, geology, etc.  And while the major voice of ID is the Discovery Institute, they are gathering support from many sources â€“ among them groups like the ICR and other creationist organizations.  They have broad public appeal largely due to an underlying public affinity for the position they are promoting and because of their methods of obscuring their intent behind innocuous sounding â€œscientificâ€? arguments.</p>
<p>&gt;Get a grip, people. If you really had confidence that you have the truth on your side, then what in the heck are you worried about? Unless, perhaps, you doubt that you have you have the truthâ€¦</p>
<p>Or perhaps what weâ€™re worried about is that the decisions are being made not on a scientific level by scientists, but on a political level by school board members and voting publics and elected officials like, say, President Bush.  Weâ€™re talking about issues affecting us on a social and political level every bit as much as weâ€™re talking about the science behind Evolution and/or ID.</p>
<p>&gt;More likely, the panic is a reflection of more basic instincts. As it is often said, follow the money. I think many Darwinists are worried about the sinecures of their jobs, grants, laboratories, etc. They have a lock on all that funding now, but any new theory poses a dangerous threat to that monopoly, a competitor for those jobs and grants. We all know how hierarchical and competitive the world of academe can be, and the threat of losing money just makes its ugly side worse.</p>
<p>I canâ€™t argue that funding issues affect decisions and motivations, but do you have any evidence to support this bold assertion, or is this just guessing on your part?</p>
<p>&gt;Part of this is also quite obviously one of dogmatic belief, as well. Scientific materialism is now the established religion of our academic elite, and any challenge to itâ€™s basic underpinnings is a threat not to be taken lightly, obviously. In these debates, Iâ€™m afraid the Darwinian establishment comes off sounding a lot more like Torquemada than Galileo.</p>
<p>Youâ€™re welcome to your opinion, but that doesnâ€™t make it right. Scientific materialism has one advantage behind it that canâ€™t be said for any alternatives â€“ duplicable accurate results.  Everything from automobiles to electric lights to the internet is based upon scientific materialism. Scientific materialism has brought us such advances in medicine as antibiotics, vaccines, insulin therapy for diabetes, and even surgery.  If you want to indulge in homeopathic non-medicine, Therapeutic (non)Touch, spinal manipulation to relieve diabetes and cancer, Facilitated (non)Communication, smoking incense, wearing crystals and/or plastic bracelets, e-meter â€œclearingâ€?, and faith â€œhealingâ€?, youâ€™re welcome to it, too.  Me, I like my medicine to be connected to reality. And I like my science to actually work.</p>
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		<title>By: Svensun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7514</link>
		<dc:creator>Svensun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7514</guid>
		<description>What is all the panic about?  All this breathless moaning and groaning, wailing and mourning over ONE idea, promoted by ONE little institute, going up against the untold legions of Darwinists in this country?  NOT ONE university science department, or even ONE high school biology department, controlled by a majority of ID&#039;ers, and yet all we see and hear is &#039;the sky is falling&#039;,  &#039;the Bible-thumpers are coming&#039;!

Get a grip, people.  If you really had confidence that you have the truth on your side, then what in the heck are you worried about?  Unless, perhaps, you doubt that you have you have the truth...

More likely, the panic is a reflection of more basic instincts.  As it is often said, follow the money.  I think many Darwinists are worried about the sinecures of their jobs, grants, laboratories, etc.  They have a lock on all that funding now, but any new theory poses a dangerous threat to that monopoly, a competitor for those jobs and grants.  We all know how hierarchical and competitive the world of academe can be, and the threat of losing money just makes its ugly side worse.

Part of this is also quite obviously one of dogmatic belief, as well.  Scientific materialism is now the established religion of our academic elite, and any challenge to it&#039;s basic underpinnings is a threat not to be taken lightly, obviously.  In these debates, I&#039;m afraid the Darwinian establishment comes off sounding a lot more like Torquemada than Galileo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is all the panic about?  All this breathless moaning and groaning, wailing and mourning over ONE idea, promoted by ONE little institute, going up against the untold legions of Darwinists in this country?  NOT ONE university science department, or even ONE high school biology department, controlled by a majority of ID&#8217;ers, and yet all we see and hear is &#8216;the sky is falling&#8217;,  &#8216;the Bible-thumpers are coming&#8217;!</p>
<p>Get a grip, people.  If you really had confidence that you have the truth on your side, then what in the heck are you worried about?  Unless, perhaps, you doubt that you have you have the truth&#8230;</p>
<p>More likely, the panic is a reflection of more basic instincts.  As it is often said, follow the money.  I think many Darwinists are worried about the sinecures of their jobs, grants, laboratories, etc.  They have a lock on all that funding now, but any new theory poses a dangerous threat to that monopoly, a competitor for those jobs and grants.  We all know how hierarchical and competitive the world of academe can be, and the threat of losing money just makes its ugly side worse.</p>
<p>Part of this is also quite obviously one of dogmatic belief, as well.  Scientific materialism is now the established religion of our academic elite, and any challenge to it&#8217;s basic underpinnings is a threat not to be taken lightly, obviously.  In these debates, I&#8217;m afraid the Darwinian establishment comes off sounding a lot more like Torquemada than Galileo.</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7512</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7512</guid>
		<description>Ken G Said:
&gt;Oh and, since I said I agreed, I should also be clear that I do not think one can characterize a religion as being â€œwrongâ€?. What would that look like, the method for doing that?

First, one can evaluate the factual claims to some degree.  Second, and more to the point, one can evaluate the concepts by logic and reasoning.  When in the realm of philosophy and metaphysics, use the tools available.

&gt; Where does the idea come from that one religion is â€œrightâ€??

Monotheism.  Polytheistic societies tend to be tolerant of other gods, because they already have a bunch of them, what&#039;s another one?  They mostly get concerned that you placate all the gods, rather than quibbling over if you&#039;ve added a new one.  The more gods the merrier.  Monotheism says &quot;Those other gods aren&#039;t the one true god,&quot; and eventually &quot;there are no other gods&quot;.  Polytheistic societies will argue that you must placate the gods correctly, though, so there&#039;s still plenty of room for religious wars.

&gt;And why does one have to accept all or none of it?

There&#039;s a word for someone who picks and chooses the parts of the religion he wants to believe - Heretic.  Structured religions codify beliefs in creeds, dogma, teachings, etc.  Those who don&#039;t teach the &quot;proper&quot; interpretations are almost worse than the mere infidels - they&#039;re the corrupters of God&#039;s Word.

&gt;Does you only go to restaurants where you like *everything* on the menu?

Somehow I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to equate religious belief with a menu.  Food choices are a matter of taste, of personal preference. Religion is supposed to be &quot;The Truth&quot;. How can you pick and choose &quot;The Truth&quot;?

&gt;Even if you believe that a single religion, out of them all, was actually inspired by the true God, what about misinterpretations in how the inspiration is coming across?

The literalists would cry Blasphemy.  The directly inspired Word of God is directed and controlled by him to be flawless.  Mere mortals are just the tools He uses to spread his message, surely he wouldn&#039;t let a mere mortal distort His Message? After all, he&#039;s omnipotent.

[/baiting]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken G Said:<br />
&gt;Oh and, since I said I agreed, I should also be clear that I do not think one can characterize a religion as being â€œwrongâ€?. What would that look like, the method for doing that?</p>
<p>First, one can evaluate the factual claims to some degree.  Second, and more to the point, one can evaluate the concepts by logic and reasoning.  When in the realm of philosophy and metaphysics, use the tools available.</p>
<p>&gt; Where does the idea come from that one religion is â€œrightâ€??</p>
<p>Monotheism.  Polytheistic societies tend to be tolerant of other gods, because they already have a bunch of them, what&#8217;s another one?  They mostly get concerned that you placate all the gods, rather than quibbling over if you&#8217;ve added a new one.  The more gods the merrier.  Monotheism says &#8220;Those other gods aren&#8217;t the one true god,&#8221; and eventually &#8220;there are no other gods&#8221;.  Polytheistic societies will argue that you must placate the gods correctly, though, so there&#8217;s still plenty of room for religious wars.</p>
<p>&gt;And why does one have to accept all or none of it?</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a word for someone who picks and chooses the parts of the religion he wants to believe &#8211; Heretic.  Structured religions codify beliefs in creeds, dogma, teachings, etc.  Those who don&#8217;t teach the &#8220;proper&#8221; interpretations are almost worse than the mere infidels &#8211; they&#8217;re the corrupters of God&#8217;s Word.</p>
<p>&gt;Does you only go to restaurants where you like *everything* on the menu?</p>
<p>Somehow I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to equate religious belief with a menu.  Food choices are a matter of taste, of personal preference. Religion is supposed to be &#8220;The Truth&#8221;. How can you pick and choose &#8220;The Truth&#8221;?</p>
<p>&gt;Even if you believe that a single religion, out of them all, was actually inspired by the true God, what about misinterpretations in how the inspiration is coming across?</p>
<p>The literalists would cry Blasphemy.  The directly inspired Word of God is directed and controlled by him to be flawless.  Mere mortals are just the tools He uses to spread his message, surely he wouldn&#8217;t let a mere mortal distort His Message? After all, he&#8217;s omnipotent.</p>
<p>[/baiting]</p>
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		<title>By: Dinky</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7511</link>
		<dc:creator>Dinky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 09:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7511</guid>
		<description>Well! Guess where I&#039;M not sending my kids to school? Lol...
   I just read an article today in my local paper that says that KY is now &quot;considering&quot; adding ID to science classes. Yeah, that&#039;s right, folks; KY suffers from enough bad publicity, let&#039;s just confirm once and for all that we&#039;re a bunch of ignorant, toothless, moonshine swilling idiots. Makes me sick.
   Homeschooling is looking better to me all the time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well! Guess where I&#8217;M not sending my kids to school? Lol&#8230;<br />
   I just read an article today in my local paper that says that KY is now &#8220;considering&#8221; adding ID to science classes. Yeah, that&#8217;s right, folks; KY suffers from enough bad publicity, let&#8217;s just confirm once and for all that we&#8217;re a bunch of ignorant, toothless, moonshine swilling idiots. Makes me sick.<br />
   Homeschooling is looking better to me all the time!</p>
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		<title>By: Leon</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7510</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7510</guid>
		<description>lol!  Good one, Ken!  That&#039;s about right, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lol!  Good one, Ken!  That&#8217;s about right, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken G</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/comment-page-2/#comment-7509</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/10/26/speaking-out-against-antiscience/#comment-7509</guid>
		<description>Or another way to make this point, isn&#039;t science class about teaching students what scientists are using science to learn?  So if you have a concept of &quot;equal time&quot; for ID, it should more properly be &quot;proportional time&quot;-- include it in proportion to the actual amount of science that is being done by ID scientists investigating how ID works.  Oh, that&#039;s zilch, OK, well, proportional is proportional...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or another way to make this point, isn&#8217;t science class about teaching students what scientists are using science to learn?  So if you have a concept of &#8220;equal time&#8221; for ID, it should more properly be &#8220;proportional time&#8221;&#8211; include it in proportion to the actual amount of science that is being done by ID scientists investigating how ID works.  Oh, that&#8217;s zilch, OK, well, proportional is proportional&#8230;</p>
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