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	<title>Comments on: SpaceX to space!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:23:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8748</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8748</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s back on:

  &quot;The new launch time is February 8 at 4:30 p.m. California time with Feb. 9 as a backup day.  We will actually be ready to launch earlier, but are planning to spend extra time reviewing and double-checking all vehicle systems.&quot;

  I give them a 50/50 chance on the first flight.  If the media is lucky, it will be a spectacular explosion that can be played over and over again on the eventing news.  If it succeeds it will be a foot note if mentioned at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s back on:</p>
<p>  &#8220;The new launch time is February 8 at 4:30 p.m. California time with Feb. 9 as a backup day.  We will actually be ready to launch earlier, but are planning to spend extra time reviewing and double-checking all vehicle systems.&#8221;</p>
<p>  I give them a 50/50 chance on the first flight.  If the media is lucky, it will be a spectacular explosion that can be played over and over again on the eventing news.  If it succeeds it will be a foot note if mentioned at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8750</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8750</guid>
		<description>Shuttle costs somewhere in the range of $450 million (NASA value) to $600 million (private value) per launch.

If the shuttle is launching its maximum payload (about 28,000 Kg), that puts the cost in the range of $16K - $21K per Kg.

Those numbers are the best case, however. If you look at an ISS assembly flight (I picked STS-092 because spaceflightnow had full data on it), the two main components delivered only massed about 9500 Kg. Now, there are other items delivered - consumables/etc., but they can&#039;t be that heavy. Just on the main components, you get a cost in the range of $47K - $63K / Kg.

Because of the required docking adapter, the size of the modules that shuttle can take to ISS is considerably smaller than it would be able to take otherwise, and IIRC, the maximum payload to ISS is smaller because of the high inclination.

Progress does up to about 2200 Kg for a cost of somewhere in the range of $22 - $45 million, for about $10K - $20K per Kg.

I should note that shuttle costs are really hard to figure, since there is a huge fixed cost regardless of how many flights you launch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shuttle costs somewhere in the range of $450 million (NASA value) to $600 million (private value) per launch.</p>
<p>If the shuttle is launching its maximum payload (about 28,000 Kg), that puts the cost in the range of $16K &#8211; $21K per Kg.</p>
<p>Those numbers are the best case, however. If you look at an ISS assembly flight (I picked STS-092 because spaceflightnow had full data on it), the two main components delivered only massed about 9500 Kg. Now, there are other items delivered &#8211; consumables/etc., but they can&#8217;t be that heavy. Just on the main components, you get a cost in the range of $47K &#8211; $63K / Kg.</p>
<p>Because of the required docking adapter, the size of the modules that shuttle can take to ISS is considerably smaller than it would be able to take otherwise, and IIRC, the maximum payload to ISS is smaller because of the high inclination.</p>
<p>Progress does up to about 2200 Kg for a cost of somewhere in the range of $22 &#8211; $45 million, for about $10K &#8211; $20K per Kg.</p>
<p>I should note that shuttle costs are really hard to figure, since there is a huge fixed cost regardless of how many flights you launch.</p>
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		<title>By: Antipodean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8749</link>
		<dc:creator>Antipodean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8749</guid>
		<description>a most excellent philosiphy, if the soviets had followed it, they may have got to the moon too... who knows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a most excellent philosiphy, if the soviets had followed it, they may have got to the moon too&#8230; who knows?</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8747</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8747</guid>
		<description>From SpaceX:

Posted December 19, 2005: Launch is scrubbed until early next year, as there is a structural issue with the 1st stage fuel tank that will require repair.  I will provide further comment as soon as this has been carefully analyzed.

Consistent with our policy, we must be 100% green for launch with no outstanding concerns whatsoever.  It is not just a matter of repairing the damage, &lt;b&gt;but also understanding at a fundamental level how to ensure it never happens again.&lt;/b&gt;  We will also do another full review of all the vehicle systems, including propulsion, structures, avionics, software and ground support systems.  Therefore, I expect that the earliest that launch would occur is late January.  Third time&#039;s the charm.

--- Elon ---

[bolding added]

http://www.spacex.com/updates.php

I like this philosophy.  Ignore the pressure to launch on a pre-determined schedule, find the true cause of the problem and fix it before proceeding.  Let&#039;s hope this is practical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From SpaceX:</p>
<p>Posted December 19, 2005: Launch is scrubbed until early next year, as there is a structural issue with the 1st stage fuel tank that will require repair.  I will provide further comment as soon as this has been carefully analyzed.</p>
<p>Consistent with our policy, we must be 100% green for launch with no outstanding concerns whatsoever.  It is not just a matter of repairing the damage, <b>but also understanding at a fundamental level how to ensure it never happens again.</b>  We will also do another full review of all the vehicle systems, including propulsion, structures, avionics, software and ground support systems.  Therefore, I expect that the earliest that launch would occur is late January.  Third time&#8217;s the charm.</p>
<p>&#8212; Elon &#8212;</p>
<p>[bolding added]</p>
<p><a href="http://www.spacex.com/updates.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.spacex.com/updates.php</a></p>
<p>I like this philosophy.  Ignore the pressure to launch on a pre-determined schedule, find the true cause of the problem and fix it before proceeding.  Let&#8217;s hope this is practical.</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8746</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8746</guid>
		<description>Teresa Said:
&gt;Uh - I donâ€™t get it. What makes this company more private than Boeing for example - I thought private just meant not government owned? And doesnâ€™t Boeing routinely launch TV satellites - that would be an all no-government launch. It is very cool though that thereâ€™s a new rocket company out there.

From the article:
&quot;It will be the first privately developed, liquid fueled rocket...&quot;

Boeing may be a commercial enterprise rather than a government agency, but the development work for their rockets were on government contract. Same goes for Lockheed Martin, Grumman, etc.  This is the first rocket designed commercially not on government contract.  While they now have a contract with the Air Force as a payload customer, the development work was privately funded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa Said:<br />
&gt;Uh &#8211; I donâ€™t get it. What makes this company more private than Boeing for example &#8211; I thought private just meant not government owned? And doesnâ€™t Boeing routinely launch TV satellites &#8211; that would be an all no-government launch. It is very cool though that thereâ€™s a new rocket company out there.</p>
<p>From the article:<br />
&#8220;It will be the first privately developed, liquid fueled rocket&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Boeing may be a commercial enterprise rather than a government agency, but the development work for their rockets were on government contract. Same goes for Lockheed Martin, Grumman, etc.  This is the first rocket designed commercially not on government contract.  While they now have a contract with the Air Force as a payload customer, the development work was privately funded.</p>
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		<title>By: The Bad Astronomer</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8745</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bad Astronomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8745</guid>
		<description>Yes, scrubbed. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1083&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;At least for a month, too&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, scrubbed. <a href="http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1083" rel="nofollow">At least for a month, too</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: MaDeR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8744</link>
		<dc:creator>MaDeR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8744</guid>
		<description>Scrubbed :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scrubbed <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JL</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8743</link>
		<dc:creator>JL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8743</guid>
		<description>Teresa - By &quot;private&quot; they probably are referring to a company that isn&#039;t publicly traded...you can&#039;t buy shares of it on the stock market as you can &quot;publicly&quot; traded companies...like Boeing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa &#8211; By &#8220;private&#8221; they probably are referring to a company that isn&#8217;t publicly traded&#8230;you can&#8217;t buy shares of it on the stock market as you can &#8220;publicly&#8221; traded companies&#8230;like Boeing.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolving Squid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8742</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolving Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8742</guid>
		<description>dre:

I recall hearing, some years ago, that launching cargo on the shuttle runs $10k to $15k US per kilogram.  However, I&#039;m unable to find a specific reference, so that&#039;s really kind of a guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dre:</p>
<p>I recall hearing, some years ago, that launching cargo on the shuttle runs $10k to $15k US per kilogram.  However, I&#8217;m unable to find a specific reference, so that&#8217;s really kind of a guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8741</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8741</guid>
		<description>dre-

That cost is a little higher than the average right now, but economies of scale haven&#039;t kicked in yet.  SpaceX hasn&#039;t hyped their $/kg cost with this rocket, but they did talk about their launch cost advantage over Pegasus (depending on the accounting SpaceX&#039;s cost per mission is 1/3 of Pegasus or less).  As their boosters get larger (Falcon V, Falcon 9) , the cost per kg goes down significantly.

If you get a chance to hear Elon Musk talk, it&#039;s worth it.  His insights are particularly refreshing in the aerospace industry.  Now all he has to do is fly successfully, and he&#039;ll have something to crow over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dre-</p>
<p>That cost is a little higher than the average right now, but economies of scale haven&#8217;t kicked in yet.  SpaceX hasn&#8217;t hyped their $/kg cost with this rocket, but they did talk about their launch cost advantage over Pegasus (depending on the accounting SpaceX&#8217;s cost per mission is 1/3 of Pegasus or less).  As their boosters get larger (Falcon V, Falcon 9) , the cost per kg goes down significantly.</p>
<p>If you get a chance to hear Elon Musk talk, it&#8217;s worth it.  His insights are particularly refreshing in the aerospace industry.  Now all he has to do is fly successfully, and he&#8217;ll have something to crow over.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Siefert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8740</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Siefert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8740</guid>
		<description>5) That pen you sold me in 1978, claiming that it was what astronauts used in space, guess what? It doesn&#039;t work in zero gravity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5) That pen you sold me in 1978, claiming that it was what astronauts used in space, guess what? It doesn&#8217;t work in zero gravity!</p>
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		<title>By: dre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8739</link>
		<dc:creator>dre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8739</guid>
		<description>My questionable but sometimes accurate math says that SpaceX is launching payload at about $5400/lb. Is that right? If so, how does that compare to other launch systems? I should hope that it is very cheap, but I really don&#039;t know the industry averages (or even where to find them).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My questionable but sometimes accurate math says that SpaceX is launching payload at about $5400/lb. Is that right? If so, how does that compare to other launch systems? I should hope that it is very cheap, but I really don&#8217;t know the industry averages (or even where to find them).</p>
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		<title>By: Diederick de Vries</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8738</link>
		<dc:creator>Diederick de Vries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8738</guid>
		<description>Maybe then China will be the country where commercial space flight will take off. They don&#039;t have much of a judicial system there, I hear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe then China will be the country where commercial space flight will take off. They don&#8217;t have much of a judicial system there, I hear.</p>
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		<title>By: ansuzmannaz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8737</link>
		<dc:creator>ansuzmannaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8737</guid>
		<description>If the FAA does kill private space travel, can I sue them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the FAA does kill private space travel, can I sue them?</p>
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		<title>By: Ozark Rocket Man</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8736</link>
		<dc:creator>Ozark Rocket Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8736</guid>
		<description>The FAA lawyers are already monkeying with private space ventures. Let&#039;s hope they don&#039;t kill the industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The FAA lawyers are already monkeying with private space ventures. Let&#8217;s hope they don&#8217;t kill the industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolving Squid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8735</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolving Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8735</guid>
		<description>With the push for private industry to get into space, we should soon see the first private lawsuit resulting from some real or imagined death/injury as a result of private space efforts, and I&#039;m really curious to see how the courts handle such things as these when they appear in court:

1) You shot my stuff into space incorrectly, I want it all back or massive damages paid.

1a) You tried to shoot my stuff into space, but blew it all to bits by accident...

2) You didn&#039;t tell me I&#039;d get space-sick on your sub-orbital flight, gimme money!

3) Virgin Space lost my luggage when I took the sub-orbital from London to New York and my baggage fell out and burned up over Greenland.  I was traumatized.  Gimme money!

4) You dropped a booster rocket on my house.  Buy me a new house, and gimme money!

Now, I&#039;m kind of making light of it, but I am serious.  Private space travel opens up a whole new universe for lawyers, I think.  I wonder if the courts are ready?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the push for private industry to get into space, we should soon see the first private lawsuit resulting from some real or imagined death/injury as a result of private space efforts, and I&#8217;m really curious to see how the courts handle such things as these when they appear in court:</p>
<p>1) You shot my stuff into space incorrectly, I want it all back or massive damages paid.</p>
<p>1a) You tried to shoot my stuff into space, but blew it all to bits by accident&#8230;</p>
<p>2) You didn&#8217;t tell me I&#8217;d get space-sick on your sub-orbital flight, gimme money!</p>
<p>3) Virgin Space lost my luggage when I took the sub-orbital from London to New York and my baggage fell out and burned up over Greenland.  I was traumatized.  Gimme money!</p>
<p>4) You dropped a booster rocket on my house.  Buy me a new house, and gimme money!</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m kind of making light of it, but I am serious.  Private space travel opens up a whole new universe for lawyers, I think.  I wonder if the courts are ready?</p>
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		<title>By: Teresa</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8734</link>
		<dc:creator>Teresa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 05:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8734</guid>
		<description>Uh - I don&#039;t get it.  What makes this company more private than Boeing for example - I thought private just meant not government owned?  And doesn&#039;t Boeing routinely launch TV satellites - that would be an all no-government launch.  It is very cool though that there&#039;s a new rocket company out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh &#8211; I don&#8217;t get it.  What makes this company more private than Boeing for example &#8211; I thought private just meant not government owned?  And doesn&#8217;t Boeing routinely launch TV satellites &#8211; that would be an all no-government launch.  It is very cool though that there&#8217;s a new rocket company out there.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/comment-page-1/#comment-8733</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2005/12/18/spacex-to-space/#comment-8733</guid>
		<description>Wonderful news.  Looks like a lot of bang for the buck, and the start of something great.

Is the hydrocarbon fuel kerosene?

Too bad they can&#039;t launch from El Primera. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful news.  Looks like a lot of bang for the buck, and the start of something great.</p>
<p>Is the hydrocarbon fuel kerosene?</p>
<p>Too bad they can&#8217;t launch from El Primera. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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