Comments on: James Randi in the hospital http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Sun, 05 Jul 2009 04:35:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: JOhn Cooper http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11316 JOhn Cooper Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:21:58 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11316 They fund a lot of research. Universities, while they may have problems when their research dollars are withdrawn after corporate pressure on government funding, still carry on an enormous amount of independent research. And, the US certainly has no monopoly on research. Corporations might have international ties but they don’t necessarily have control of all international research. They fund a lot of research. Universities, while they may have problems when their research dollars are withdrawn after corporate pressure on government funding, still carry on an enormous amount of independent research. And, the US certainly has no monopoly on research. Corporations might have international ties but they don’t necessarily have control of all international research.

]]> By: Irishman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11315 Irishman Fri, 24 Feb 2006 02:02:40 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11315 A person's words, especially recorded in print or video/film, do not expire when said person does. It is perfectly valid to speak of influential people and their ideas even though they are no longer with us. I'm not certain for the future of the JREF. I <i>think</i> Randi has made provisions for the staff to continue, though it certainly seems questionable now how that could happen without the "Old Man" at the helm. But I think Randi's probably put some thought into that matter himself, and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone pick up the mantel - Shermer and Penn come to mind as candidates with popular recognition. Which also speaks to the identity of younger people. Other aging names that come to mind - Paul Kurtz, Phil Klass (deceased), Joe Nickell. Some relatively younger folks include Micheal Shermer, Penn Jillette (and his non-vocal Teller), but also Phil Plait, Massimo Pigliucci, and Massimo Polidoro. You are correct that a lot of the visible community of skeptical leaders are aging - it is a phenomenon not solely faced by the skeptical community. I think part of the problem is that the younger generation (of which I am a member) don't know how to get involved in a meaningful way, or feel over-committed to the daily grind of jobs, relationships, families, etc. I also think that part of the problem is that in order for someone to make a name for herself, she must establish credentials and work her way up from the bottom to gain experience. Thus by the time someone is ready to enter the public arena at a national level, they have also achieved some age with that experience. I know of a few younger people who have taken an interest, but have not yet broken into the "big stage" yet. I think there is an opportunity for active and well-known skeptics to begin mentoring younger folks who are interested but don't know where to begin. It may already be occurring and just not be visible to us from the outside. A person’s words, especially recorded in print or video/film, do not expire when said person does. It is perfectly valid to speak of influential people and their ideas even though they are no longer with us.

I’m not certain for the future of the JREF. I think Randi has made provisions for the staff to continue, though it certainly seems questionable now how that could happen without the “Old Man” at the helm. But I think Randi’s probably put some thought into that matter himself, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see someone pick up the mantel - Shermer and Penn come to mind as candidates with popular recognition.

Which also speaks to the identity of younger people. Other aging names that come to mind - Paul Kurtz, Phil Klass (deceased), Joe Nickell. Some relatively younger folks include Micheal Shermer, Penn Jillette (and his non-vocal Teller), but also Phil Plait, Massimo Pigliucci, and Massimo Polidoro. You are correct that a lot of the visible community of skeptical leaders are aging - it is a phenomenon not solely faced by the skeptical community. I think part of the problem is that the younger generation (of which I am a member) don’t know how to get involved in a meaningful way, or feel over-committed to the daily grind of jobs, relationships, families, etc. I also think that part of the problem is that in order for someone to make a name for herself, she must establish credentials and work her way up from the bottom to gain experience. Thus by the time someone is ready to enter the public arena at a national level, they have also achieved some age with that experience. I know of a few younger people who have taken an interest, but have not yet broken into the “big stage” yet.

I think there is an opportunity for active and well-known skeptics to begin mentoring younger folks who are interested but don’t know where to begin. It may already be occurring and just not be visible to us from the outside.

]]> By: Rory Coker http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11314 Rory Coker Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:48:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11314 Randi's illness raises an issue that has bothered me for a long time. The "skeptical community" or whatever you want to call it seems to be as totally locked into a Cult of Personality as Stalinist Russia ever was. The dismal SKEPTICAL INQUIRER is still heartily pimping poor old Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov many, many years after their deaths... see the July/August 2005 issue of SI for example, which appears to have Sagan's disinterred corpse on the cover. To come to the immediate point, what happens to the James Randi Educational Foundation when Randi dies (as he almost just did)? Aren't there any people younger than 65 (or 75 or 85) who could be considered leaders of the fight against fraud, pseudoscience and con-games? If not, the battle is lost. [Don't look at me, I'm 66 myself.] Randi’s illness raises an issue that has bothered me for a long time.

The “skeptical community” or whatever you want to call it seems to be as totally locked into a Cult of Personality as Stalinist Russia ever was. The dismal SKEPTICAL INQUIRER is still heartily pimping poor old Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov many, many years after their deaths… see the July/August 2005 issue of SI for example, which appears to have Sagan’s disinterred corpse on the cover.

To come to the immediate point, what happens to the James Randi Educational Foundation when Randi dies (as he almost just did)?

Aren’t there any people younger than 65 (or 75 or 85) who could be considered leaders of the fight against fraud, pseudoscience and con-games? If not, the battle is lost. [Don’t look at me,
I’m 66 myself.]

]]> By: Irishman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11313 Irishman Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:38:46 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11313 Gary Ansorge Said: >At least in the human, death can be defered by an act of will, to some extant. People often will not die until some desired person is present or some other emotionally significant event has transpired, such as an aniversary, birthday of a child, etc. Lifeboat survivor tales recount how some “give up” and die and others hang on ’til rescue, regardless of how unpleasant that effort may be. Of course this does not apply(I think) with a totally unexpected death, such as the proverbial piano falling from an airplane,,,so I expect that tough old goats such as Randi and I will hang on despite the most logical choice being to ” relax, and go with the flow, dude”,,,into the dark unknown. You are correct, sometimes death can be postponed by an act of will, and sometimes the will to live is gone and the person dies from what could have been survived. In the lifeboat situation, the survivor is typically able to be returned to health once rescued. With deaths due to aging that are temporarily postponed, there is no ability to return to health, so eventually they give in, but the delay happens because of some near-term goal of significance, such as reaching 100th birthday, or making in through the family gathering for the holidays. What is the applicability to Randi? I think he can pull through this heart attack. Treatment exists that can help him back to the health he had prior to the event. But the long-term situation is that everyone dies, it's only a matter of time. We're all terminal, some of us just have longer prognoses than others. ;-) I wish him well, and hope he's around for a lot longer. Gary Ansorge Said:
>At least in the human, death can be defered by an act of will, to some extant. People often will not die until some desired person is present or some other emotionally significant event has transpired, such as an aniversary, birthday of a child, etc. Lifeboat survivor tales recount how some “give up” and die and others hang on ’til rescue, regardless of how unpleasant that effort may be. Of course this does not apply(I think) with a totally unexpected death, such as the proverbial piano falling from an airplane,,,so I expect that tough old goats such as Randi and I will hang on despite the most logical choice being to ” relax, and go with the flow, dude”,,,into the dark unknown.

You are correct, sometimes death can be postponed by an act of will, and sometimes the will to live is gone and the person dies from what could have been survived. In the lifeboat situation, the survivor is typically able to be returned to health once rescued. With deaths due to aging that are temporarily postponed, there is no ability to return to health, so eventually they give in, but the delay happens because of some near-term goal of significance, such as reaching 100th birthday, or making in through the family gathering for the holidays.

What is the applicability to Randi? I think he can pull through this heart attack. Treatment exists that can help him back to the health he had prior to the event. But the long-term situation is that everyone dies, it’s only a matter of time. We’re all terminal, some of us just have longer prognoses than others. ;-)
I wish him well, and hope he’s around for a lot longer.

]]> By: Gary Ansorge http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11312 Gary Ansorge Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:30:25 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11312 Irishman: Good points, one and all. One small addendum, about "giving up". I've seen death in both small critters(dogs,cats,etc) and large(human). At least in the human, death can be defered by an act of will, to some extant. People often will not die until some desired person is present or some other emotionally significant event has transpired, such as an aniversary, birthday of a child, etc. Lifeboat survivor tales recount how some "give up" and die and others hang on 'til rescue, regardless of how unpleasant that effort may be. Of course this does not apply(I think) with a totally unexpected death, such as the proverbial piano falling from an airplane,,,so I expect that tough old goats such as Randi and I will hang on despite the most logical choice being to " relax, and go with the flow, dude",,,into the dark unknown. I knew Tim Leary, saw him at the northern Calif. Hog Farm commune in '94 when he was supposed to have a mere 6 weeks to live,,,I guess he was having too much fun, despite his having prostate cancer he lived another 18 months. Another anecdotal story of survival. Peace to you, Randi,,, Gary 7 Irishman: Good points, one and all. One small addendum, about “giving up”.
I’ve seen death in both small critters(dogs,cats,etc) and large(human).
At least in the human, death can be defered by an act of will, to some extant. People often will not die until some desired person is present or some other emotionally significant event has transpired, such as an aniversary, birthday of a child, etc. Lifeboat survivor tales recount how some “give up” and die and others hang on ’til rescue, regardless of how unpleasant that effort may be. Of course this does not apply(I think) with a totally unexpected death, such as the proverbial piano falling from an airplane,,,so I expect that tough old goats such as Randi and I will hang on despite the most logical choice being to ” relax, and go with the flow, dude”,,,into the dark unknown.

I knew Tim Leary, saw him at the northern Calif. Hog Farm commune in ‘94 when he was supposed to have a mere 6 weeks to live,,,I guess he was having too much fun, despite his having prostate cancer he lived another 18 months.

Another anecdotal story of survival.

Peace to you, Randi,,,

Gary 7

]]> By: Mike Birbeck http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11309 Mike Birbeck Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:02:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11309 As a UK fan of Mr Randi's catankerous scepticism (he would of course immediately edit the word with the mid Atlantic K), I am sorry to hear he has fallen foul of the laws of thermodynamics. As for prayer (for Mr Randi or anybody else for that matter) I am apt to fall back on Pascal's Wager... "God is, or He is not. But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up...Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is." Whatever the case I am apt to try and hedge my bet and therefore will say a sceptical prayer for Mr Rand :-) May he get well soon. Mike Birbeck Ongar England As a UK fan of Mr Randi’s catankerous scepticism (he would of course immediately edit the word with the mid Atlantic K), I am sorry to hear he has fallen foul of the laws of thermodynamics.

As for prayer (for Mr Randi or anybody else for that matter) I am apt to fall back on Pascal’s Wager…

“God is, or He is not. But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up…Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.”

Whatever the case I am apt to try and hedge my bet and therefore will say a sceptical prayer for Mr Rand :-) May he get well soon.

Mike Birbeck
Ongar
England

]]> By: Irishman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11311 Irishman Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:07:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/02/06/james-randi-in-the-hospital/#comment-11311 Gary, faith is "belief without evidence". I think there is pretty good evidence that the Laws of Gravitation will remain in effect. I think experience demonstrates that reason works better than blind acceptance (think of a used-car salesman). I think the evidence for Evolution suggests that humanity will continue to change - perhaps through intentional means, but also through unintentional ones. You are probably correct that it is faith that allows you to think that the new models of humanity will be fun to play with. But experience dictates that some models of humanity are currently fun to play with, and it isn't a stretch to think that will remain so for some time. But you probably are relying on faith to think that Randi is "too damn tough to give up and die". I wouldn't expect him to just give up, but dying will eventually happen to us all, it's only a matter of time and circumstances. Gary, faith is “belief without evidence”. I think there is pretty good evidence that the Laws of Gravitation will remain in effect. I think experience demonstrates that reason works better than blind acceptance (think of a used-car salesman). I think the evidence for Evolution suggests that humanity will continue to change - perhaps through intentional means, but also through unintentional ones.

You are probably correct that it is faith that allows you to think that the new models of humanity will be fun to play with. But experience dictates that some models of humanity are currently fun to play with, and it isn’t a stretch to think that will remain so for some time.

But you probably are relying on faith to think that Randi is “too damn tough to give up and die”. I wouldn’t expect him to just give up, but dying will eventually happen to us all, it’s only a matter of time and circumstances.

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