Via Pharyngula I see that my friend and sweetiepie Julia Sweeney was interviewed in the Seattle Times about her play, "Letting Go of God". I’ve seen her perform this one-woman play a couple of times now, and it is funny, poignant, and thought-provoking. Most people think of Julia as "Pat" from Saturday Night Live and are likely to dismiss her, but in fact she is a person who has a deep love of thinking, of chewing over philosophical notions, and is a voracious consumer of ideas. Conversations with her are a little dizzying because she changes topics and caroms off into tangents so much. Like me, one of her guiding principles is: there’s so much to learn!
So it’s nice to see her written up in the papers for her work. I particularly like the final paragraph from the article:
So what beliefs guide her today? “Every time I describe it I sound like a ‘Star Trek’ convention, but I do wish we could worship the sun, the moon and the stars. For me, just reading about astronomy and what conditions were right on Earth for life to evolve, how all those molecules became me, is so profound.”
I don’t think she means literally worship astronomy, as in having blind belief and dogma about it. She means cherish, appreciate, feel awe… you know, grok it.
Who am I to disagree with that?
May 6th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
No fair. How come you get to hang with all the cool people?
May 6th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Because I’m cool. Duh.
May 6th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Zing!
May 6th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Nice “Sranger From A Strange Land” reference.
May 7th, 2006 at 3:07 am
Not necessarily. “Grok” is an English word now. You can even find it in the dictionary.
May 7th, 2006 at 4:39 am
The calcium in our bones and the iron in our blood originated in exploding stars. That’s a stirring realization to grok. (No big bearded guy on a thrown necessary.)
May 7th, 2006 at 5:11 am
“Not necessarily. “Grok†is an English word now. You can even find it in the dictionary.”
Many “Heinleinisms” have made it into the mainstream vernacular. For example, remote manipulators are called “waldos”.
May 7th, 2006 at 5:53 am
Well, I feel sorry for you and Pat. You miss the whole point of the glory of creation- to worship the creator, and NOT the creation. Get a grasp on God! In the end, you will not regret it.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:47 am
Dear DrJPHauck, what makes you think God desires worship? ,,,and how could ANY intelligence be worth calling God if it did???
As the Dalai Lama said,”God? We know nothing of that. But IF there is a God, we are it.”
So worship yourself and the magic you’re made of(magic in the sense of Arthur Clarks defenition).
So there!!!
GAry 7
May 7th, 2006 at 8:41 am
Thanks to everyone for clearing up those misconceptions about “grok”. Before this I just assumed it was a Klingon expletive.
May 7th, 2006 at 11:33 am
I guess Julia Sweeney has Deeeeep Thoughts.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
Dear Gary,
Remember these or have you ever read them?
1) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
“Thou shalt not steal.”
2) “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,”
3) “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;”
4) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.”
5) “Honor thy father and thy mother:”
6) “Thou shalt not kill.”
7) “Thou shalt not commit adultery”
9) “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
10) “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house,…..nor anything that is thy neighbor’s
I guess God decided and told everyone at the time he wanted to be worshipped!
Of course, being the skeptic that you are, you probably think Moses went up on the mountain and did them all by himself. Such a pity really.
You know sometimes, every now and again, I come to this site and read somthing that isn’t bash religion or bash the current administration. That makes me want to read some more; Then excrement, all over the place again.
It’s a shame that so many of you think trying to tear down what so many people hold sacred is actually a good thing ?
No matter how hard you try you will never be able to disprove God much as so many of you would like to, it is not going to happen .
OK, let the knives come out.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Actually, there is no evidence Moses actually existed outside of Biblical references.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:48 am
Dear Allen – go read the Bible. There are more commandments than 10 (and, guess what, the different accounts of the comandments contradict each other).
Janet Meenaghan
England, UK
May 8th, 2006 at 7:48 am
All this argumentation is why I tend toward the philosophy of Bhudism. I was raised a Luthern but at the age of 13, when my 7th grade teacher (in a Luthern school)skipped over the part of our science text that had to do with one of my favorite subjects, Dionosaurs because, as she noted,”,,,the bible says earth was created only 6000 years ago, so obviously these creatures could not exist”,
I decided right then that ANY dogma that excluded physical evidence in favor of non thinking acceptance was “obviously” not my cup of tea.
Besides, as anyone who has read the bible knows, it says absolutly nothing about the age of the earth. That was calculated by some goofy Catholic priest based on the ages Adam, Methuselah, et.al. were said to have lived.
You will note the story of Abraham and his incestous daughters, who were determined to keep the Jewish tribe alive. Abe predates Moses, the accepted writer of the old testament,ergo, the belief system detailing Yawee was developed by a bunch of inbred desert nomads,,,and we’re stuck with the results.
We have good evidence that much genetic inadequacy results from such inbreeding. Including hallucinations,,,
Gary 7
May 8th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Allen Lipscomb said:
>Remember these or have you ever read them?
1) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.â€
“Thou shalt not steal.â€
2) “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,â€
3) “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;â€
4) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.â€
5) “Honor thy father and thy mother:â€
6) “Thou shalt not kill.â€
7) “Thou shalt not commit adulteryâ€
9) “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.â€
10) “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house,…..nor anything that is thy neighbor’s
>I guess God decided and told everyone at the time he wanted to be worshipped!
Yes, the Bible clearly states we should worship God. It also clearly states we should fear God. I think the question should be why does God deserve worship? When I read God’s actions in the Bible, I see a long list of temper tantrums by a “jealous God” more worried about people being subservient to him than about the welfare of his creations. After all, he has no qualms about wiping out practically all of humanity (his own creation), and pretty much the rest of the world along with it (the great flood). Now how does humanity’s sins rate annihilation of all the bunnies on the Earth? And then he picks one small tribe of humans, one lineage, and promotes them and gives them special attention and protection, against all the other tribes of humanity – his creations. So he sends his chosen people into lands held by the others and tells his people to commit genocide. He instructs them to kill everyone – men, women, children, babies. Not only that, he has them kill all the livestock, too, because you wouldn’t want any of those evil sheep sowing dissention and converting your children. Then there’s the wonderful lesson, don’t insult priests. Some children mock Elijah by calling him “baldy”, so God sends a mother bear to attack and eat them. Yea God! You rock!
>You know sometimes, every now and again, I come to this site and read somthing that isn’t bash religion or bash the current administration. That makes me want to read some more; Then excrement, all over the place again.
Yeah, I get tired of the self-righteous preaching from the commenters, too, but Phil lets you post here as long as you don’t get rude.
>It’s a shame that so many of you think trying to tear down what so many people hold sacred is actually a good thing ?
Yeah, I wouldn’t want to tear down those sacred beliefs of the 9/11 terrorists. Maybe if beliefs were a little less sacred and a little more critically evaluated, people would be less likely to kill over them.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:25 am
Of course, being a complete physco that you are, you already know Moses went up on the mountain and spoke directly with an alien life form . Such a pity really.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
I belived in the bible once…then I woke up and realised there is no fact in it.
Thanks for the info on “grok”, it is such a good word.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Kevin from NYC, that remark was a bit strong. You might polish up on the finer points of name calling and their applicability on this forum.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Unfortunately, even if more people thought a little more critically (a good thing) that wouldn’t have prevented 9/11. Human nature being what it is we like to belong to groups. One of the powerful means to get people to join your group is fear of another group. While I agree it would be to mankind’s benefit for a greater percentage to be critical thinkers; it wouldn’t have prevented a 9/11 type act.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
I get it that religious folks who find great comfort, and identity, and have friendships among those of like mind are all shook up when they are confronted with others who get all those things elsewhere — but I think that’s exactly the point of Julia’s monologue. I don’t think I know any secularists who purposely seek to bash religionists. In fact, I think many of us are curious about religion, and want to understand it better — not just the Judeo-Christian variety, but also the tendency to use religion as a worldview, whether it is eastern or western religions, or idol worship, or any number of supernatural explanations for natural phenomena.
I think our mistake is in not explaining or illustrating the path to peace of mind that exists without belief in life after death or a supernatural being who answers prayers and runs things. We who do not use religion for that peace of mind make those who require it feel like fools, and that makes them defensive. My opinion. Julia at least expresses with such incredible gentleness that transition.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
OK, Here goes:
Mr Bad, just because you can find no references except the Bible, which is a collection of different accounts told through a few years (lol) and the people who didn’t agree with the Jews and then later persecuted them for their beliefs, you find it strange over 2000+ years later no records exist. Amazing, ain’t it, that could happen. No evidence of the parting of the Red Sea, the deaths of the Egyptian army, or anything. I wonder how that could happen especially as Rameses thought of himself as invincible?
Except they have found evidence of chariots at the bottom of the sea.
I guess you wouldn’t find too many records. People might suddenly disappear if it was found out?
Janet,
Tell me some of the others, please.
I know Moses came off the mountain and managed to have an “accident” with the first two tablets and had to go get another.
However, as far as I know only 10 commandments exist up until this time.
Please enlighten us with the others.
Gary,
As far as I know the Catholic church (the first existing church) has never said the Earth started 600 years ago. I would bet the vast majority of Christians would have the same opinion.
Irishman,
Guess what? I am not God I cannot speak to how He reasons or why He does what He does.
I do know he sent His Son down to free us from our sins.
Of course, you have a different position.
I know I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes. I can’t imagine the wrath of God, and I guess neither can you. I do know I don’t want to experience it.
Ok, Kevin ??
Whatever.
Wendy,
I cannot believe you actually wrote what you did if you think that there is not a purposfule eroding of our culture and a constant belittling of the Jewish and Christian faiths. You really have blinds over you eyes and ears. The Left in this country, and in England , are trying their hardest to remove God entirely from our societies and what they cannot remove, they twist and pervert as much as possible.
So are we having fun yet?
Is all of y’all’s self righteous dander up? I can’t wait till tomorrow and see what comes next.
Allen
May 8th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
Mr bad,
Please check this out, you might find it interesting at the very least.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm
May 8th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Mr Bad,
You might want to check this out.
You might be amused at the very least.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm
May 8th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Mr Bad,
You might want to check this out.
You might be amused at the very least.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.html
May 9th, 2006 at 7:09 am
Dear Allen – several dozen commandments were delivered to Moses orally (according to the Bible – see Exodus 20). The second set of stone tablets (Exodus 34:28) included #10 “Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk” (Exodus 34:26). Exodus 21:7 contains further rules, eg allowing fathers to sell their daughters into slavery and, 21:17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death”.
All rather confusing for those brought up on the standard 10 commandments. And pointing to a worldly than other-worldly source, I’d argue.
Reference: http://www.randi.org/jr/090503.html
Janet Meenaghan
England, UK
May 9th, 2006 at 7:25 am
Allen, I never said the Church mentioned the age of earth. Re-read my statements. It was a Catholic priest who did the stupid deed. The Church had “no comment”.
Opinions have little to do with facts. Just because the majority of the population once believed the earth was flat, didn’t make it that way.
Gods wrath is well known. So is the impact of large asteroids. Chaos is the ruling force in this Universe. We die, both the innocent and the guilty and it has nothing to do with the mysterious design of god.
It’s just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Relying upon some else to interpret gods will for you is why we have kings, dictators and despots. They ruled because some priest said it was by the will of the invisible god.
Presidents and prime ministers rule by the will of those ruled,,,so we can repolace them as we choose. Not so with the devine right of kings.
As you may have surmised, I have no use for kings,,,
or any other absolute ruler!
So, you don’t know His mind or intentions. How does that differ from accepting the rule of chaos and accident?
You might want to continue this discussion via my email address. I think it’s inappropriate to carry this on in the BAs blog.
GAry 7 @ dead_naked_drummer@yahoo.com
May 9th, 2006 at 9:22 am
Wendy said:
You have a valid point. Many people find comfort from religion when there’s no other action they can take. They find solace for loss of loved ones in the belief their loved one isn’t really gone forever, they are happy and will be reuinted in the afterlife. When disaster strikes, they pray because that is all they can do.
Unfortunately, us atheists don’t have that option. It would be great to think there’s someone out there looking out for us, someone to make the bad go away and make things better. But atheists don’t see evidence that there is someone, that anything is being done. Prayer isn’t productive, all it does is provide a psychological crutch. Maybe there’s value for that psychological crutch for some people, but atheists don’t see the value when the outcome is the same. So we resign ourselves to what we perceive as true. We accept there’s no magic referee to blow the whistle and call foul against nature for roughing the passer.
But that raises the question of how do we deal with the disastrous? How do we deal with a child with cancer, a parent having a heart attack, a sibling crushed in a car accident? These situations are not in our hands – there are some actions we can take, but they are not easy and not always able to cure the problem. The thing is, in the end we all have to come to grips with the reality we are presented despite our wishes. The religious have to consign themselves to saying, “We don’t know God’s plan”; “God took them home to be with him”; other variations on the theme that allow them to reconcile the futility of their prayer with their belief that God is there and cares. Atheists also have to face the inevitability of their loss, the futility of actions that don’t help – cancer treatments that aren’t successful, heart surgery that fails, damage from the accident just too great to do anything. It’s not a comfort to us to say, “There’s some mysterious plan that we’re not allowed to understand.” That’s an insult to our intelligence and our sense of caring. We don’t find comfort in “They’ll be happy in heaven, and you’ll see them again,” because know it to be a lie. We grieve, we feel the loss, we share our pain, and then we eventually learn to accept it and move on. In the end, that’s what everyone does, religious or not. Grieve, feel the pain, then eventually move on.
So how do we tell religious people how to get through it when all we can really tell them is you just do?
May 9th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Irishman, thank you. You have empathy.
I can’t change anyone’s mind. I can, however, talk about how I see things: I try to demonstrate by my actions that it is possible to have good values without the aforesaid belief system; I tell my story of transition; I talk about my discovery that there have been and are cultures in the world that never heard of Judeo-Christian traditions. I live in a city with a lot of diversity, so I can comfortably exchange information with other secular humanists about how to have this debate; it was the words of a friend who is also an atheist that I borrowed for that message to Allen.
If someone still wants to be hostile toward me, I avoid them. Life is short; I want to have as much fun as I can before my time is up. I give some of that time to sharing my discoveries with others. The rest is the same as anyone else’s: work, sleep, family, education and enjoyment.
I have wondered why some people enjoy religion, and others are skepticsl; probably it’s some sort of conditioning, maybe it is some genetic predisposition.
As far as my own ability to deal with grief — I explain it this way: my aunt was ripping on my mom about spending so much time with me and my siblings and my daughter and her kids. My mother was expressing reluctance about taking up so much of our time. I told her to tell my aunt I said this: “When are we supposed to visit you? After you’re dead?” The point I’m making is that we homo sapiens can project a little bit into the future. It gives us the luxury of trying to avoid regret. At least at the end of her life, I will be able to say I did what I could to be a good daughter. It worked after my father died. I miss him, but I have no regrets. The rest seems to be unpredictable. I try to learn from the mistakes of others, from my own mistakes. Death and Taxes. There are inevitabilities.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
” I want to have as much fun as possible before,,,”
As I said, stuff happens. Roll with the punches and come up grinning,,,
,,,or, as the Dead have been known to say,
“I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe,
but at least I’m enjoying the ride,,,”
,,,boy, am I!!!
GAry 7
May 9th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Janet
Exodus 20:22-23:19 The stipulations of the “Book of the Covenant (24:7), consisting largely of expansions on, and expositions of the Ten Commandments.
Think of the Constitution before, then after, lawyers played with it.
All that was 1500BC.
Jesus changed a few things; don’t you think?
Gary, whilst you are probably an honest, upright person, and have all the good intentions in the world, I think as BA started this on his blog, it should be alright to continue it. So far, nobody has gotten out of hand.
Secondly, I would rather people didn’t have my email address just in case I get spammed to death or worse, do not take offence at this, I mean none.
“You will note the story of Abraham and his incestuous daughters, who were determined to keep the Jewish tribe alive. Abe predates Moses, the accepted writer of the old testament,ergo, the belief system detailing Yawee was developed by a bunch of inbred desert nomads,,,and we’re stuck with the results.
We have good evidence that much genetic inadequacy results from such inbreeding. Including hallucinations,,,”
Lot was the one with the daughters, not Abraham.
Actually, we have not been stuck with the results for a long time, 1973yrs approx. since Christ died for us. Since then, a lot has changed, including if you want my opinion how God regards us.
When Christ was sent, it was for one purpose and that was so those that chose to, can become acceptable for God.
Perhaps God was a little weary of squishing people that were unacceptable to him.
So, how come nobody has commented on the finds on the bottom of the Red Sea?
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.html
May 9th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Janet
Exodus 20:22-23:19 The stipulations of the “Book of the Covenant (24:7), consisting largely of expansions on, and expositions of the Ten Commandments.
Think of the Constitution before, then after, lawyers played with it.
All that was 1500BC.
Jesus changed a few things; don’t you think?
Gary, whilst you are probably an honest, upright person, and have all the good intentions in the world, I think as BA started this on his blog, it should be alright to continue it. So far, nobody has gotten out of hand.
Secondly, I would rather people didn’t have my email address just in case I get spammed to death or worse, do not take offence at this, I mean none.
“You will note the story of Abraham and his incestuous daughters, who were determined to keep the Jewish tribe alive. Abe predates Moses, the accepted writer of the old testament,ergo, the belief system detailing Yawee was developed by a bunch of inbred desert nomads,,,and we’re stuck with the results.
We have good evidence that much genetic inadequacy results from such inbreeding. Including hallucinations,,,”
Lot was the one with the daughters, not Abraham.
Actually, we have not been stuck with the results for a long time, 1973yrs approx. since Christ died for us. Since then, a lot has changed, including if you want my opinion how God regards us.
When Christ was sent, it was for one purpose and that was so those that chose to, can become acceptable for God.
Perhaps God was a little weary of squishing people that were unacceptable to him.
So, how come nobody has commented on the finds on the bottom of the Red Sea?
May 10th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Allen:
Right,,,Abraham married his half sister. Still inbreeding, still wrong. Still leads to genetic problems.
Book of Genesis filled with contradiction.
I gave up reading the bible when I found much more interesting SciFi.
Mythologies exist because humans MUST try to understand our environment and exercise some control over it.
It’s in our nature.
The old testament, the new testament, the Quran, etc are all mythological attempts to come to terms with that which we do not understand.
Interesting that the Sufii mystics stressed knowledge and reason as the penultimate way of knowing god.
T’was a Sufii that developed the scientific method. A Sufii that developed the discipline of Algebra and a Sufii that invented fractional distillation.Ummm, distillation,,,
We owe those great thinkers a lot.They still believed in a god, but one of knowledge, reason and compassion, not a god of vengence.
I believe in reason, knowledge and compassion.
Don’t know about any Red Sea discoveries. Went to the mentioned site. Couldn’t find what you were talking about, at least without paying,,,and I will NEVER give money to a religious site! Let them dig ditches like the rest of us.
GAry 7
May 11th, 2006 at 6:08 am
I’m not saying I’m advocating intermarriage, but for the record, I seem to remember an article in Scientific American a few years ago that showed many advantages of intermarriage. One of the diagrams showed the Rothschild family, in which the goal was to keep the money in the family, and that no offspring of the family had more than the average number of genetic problems (my paraphrase), with another example being the marriage of Chas. Darwin to his cousin. Anyway, there was another, more scientific reason that it was not necessarily a bad thing for close relatives to marry. A person with an interited trait of a big jaw and big teeth marrying a person with a small jaw and small teeth could produce an offspring with a small jaw and big teeth that could cause a life full of dental problems. Of course, I can’t find the reference or I’d give you all the link. Just one of those darned imponderables.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
Gary,
I just went on there. It’s free?
Go back to post 18930, I was having dificulty posting it. For some reason, it has posted several times; go figure.
I think we would probably have a lot more in common than you think. I am also seeker of knowledge, I also like sci fi and fantasy as well. However, I also have a personal relationship with God.
You know I don’t expect you to think any more than this guy is soft in the head which is a shame. All joking aside, I know my belief system is something you cannot, or will not, understand, but what you do need to understand is the way people like me look at you.
I am sure if you saw a blind man about to take a step off a cliff, that fell straight into a blast furnace, you would try to stop him by calling out if you were too far away to grab him and stop him falling.
This is not my saying I am superior or better in anyway. Nor do I think the Church (pick one) has people that are especially wonderful, although I can say that I have personally met a few people that are.
This post started as BA glorifying the views of an atheist.
Does that have much to do with the so called “main theme” which is to point out bad science? That is why I started reading the BA, and enjoying it as well, I might add.
As far as I am concerned, it doesn’t; however, he has the right to post anything he wants. But as it is a blog, I want to stand up for my side too even if you all think I have a screw loose.
All I can do is try.
Allen
May 16th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Allen, I have a few counter thoughts.
Whenever I hear this statement, I am very puzzled by what the person means. What is a “personal relationship with God”? I know when I have a personal relationship with someone, it typically involves information exchange. Sharing letters and emails may count to some extent, depending upon the depth of content shared. Mostly it describes someone you know In Real Life (IRL). Often it involves spending time with the person, perhaps just sharing each other’s presence.
I have difficulty understanding how that sentence can apply to God. He is notorious for not saying anything. He is notorious for not being present, at least in recognizable form. People do claim he is everywhere at once, but that doesn’t help if you can’t point to him and say “There he is”, or demonstrate him in some way.
How does he communicate with you? Do you hear his voice? Does a random bush ignite when you’re nearby? Stone tablets appear on your doorstep? Or is his communication much less overt, along the lines of a feeling of goodwill?
Allen, I ask this because I was a Christian – I went to church, attended services, studied the lessons, got baptized. I prayed – I prayed sincerely an meaningfully, not over trivial things like “help me ace this test”. In all that time I never got anything I would characterize as a response (unless you characterize ignoring me as a blanket “no”). I certainly never held conversations – they were all one-sided.
So you are correct, I can’t understand you, but it’s not for a lack of trying.
That is one characterization. Let me give you another. You would not appreciate it if I came up to you and said, “Have you heard the good news? There’s no Hell and no God! Isn’t that great?” You’d find that pushy and rude. But you seem to have no issue going up to people and saying, “Have you heard the good news? You’re an evil sinner and bound to spend eternity being tortured, not because you did anything wrong, but because your distant ancestor screwed up. But I can make all that go away, if you just believe what I do.” Kind of tacky, a bit insulting, and not particularly convincing. (And for my next act, I’ll predict you turn that description around and point it at me. Do I win Randi’s Million Bucks?)
I’ve met some wonderful people, too. With and without “Church”.
That is the main theme of the overall website. However, a blog is inherently a venue for personal expression of the author. And while Phil has stated that he still primarily will focus on good astronomy and good science, often by pointing out bad examples but also by drawing attention to the good stuff, he retains the right to express his opinions on other topics as well. Clear thinking and critical evaluation are related themes to good science, and for many of us Atheism is an extension of those clear thinking processes. But also, he probably feels a desire to give a little good press to a position he advocates. If you don’t share his attitude, that’s your choice to make.
The blog has a public feedback forum, so you are free to respond – even if you disagree. But don’t expect people to blindly accept what you say, either. We share the same feedback forum.
July 28th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
You lot are certainly an inteligent bunch. Please exuse my spelling as I started this journey in 1973 and the education system sneered at me, like it did so many others of the day. I read through the list above and was impressed by all, even those who could only find it in themselves to display their general anoyance. Here’s a thought for you all to be going on with. What if you are all right? You will all feel quite silly if all of the argument is about nothing. What if there has been a confusion for ages about the distinction between God, the universe, of whose eternal energy we are all comprised and alien ( Gods ) that are using earth as a way of understanding their own ill traits. Some of you are so inteligent that you will laugh because I mentioned aliens at all but scientificaly, it is rediculouse and aregant to assume that you are alone in the cosmos, to which, some of you will no doupt write that space is too vast to traverse, to which I say, rock is difficult to pass through, water is thinner so with less friction we can move faster, air is thinner still so we can pass through it even faster, space is not a void or thrust could not be achieved so perhaps a little thinner and if you remove that level of friction from your path then light is suddenly slower than you. As for all you atheasts, I understand why with all the truth and lies, why you can form a negative veiw of the flock but this sadly stops you from looking and that way you will never find anything of interest. You may think that this way you will not be dissapointed but on the contrary this way you can only be dissapointed. Just for the record, moses was a good man but a lousy shepherd, he could not convince his poeple that the desert was their home and with a little graft fertilising the sand with their sanitised waste and decay, it would be a land of milk and honey as it once was, after that it is sad to say that the flock grew sharp teeth but as I said, moses was a good man and refused to follow the wolves, most of the dispicable acts that followed to this day have been undertaken without sanction. On the point of inbreeding, more than a million choices of code pass through each couple and traits can skip several generations but when an illness strikes everyone suffers a degree of negativity. Finaly, all the ( Profits ) have tried to shed some light on truth but I fear that the fight is all that keeps you going, going where you can see for yourselves.