IRISHMAN: I agree with you to some extent about the body “already reacting”, but playing devil’s advocate here, I was suggesting it was in an UNfocused sort of way. Simply having a high fever isn’t good. Sure, it’s a natural reaction to infection, but if by launching a few killer T-cells your body can kill off the infection more efficaciously, then the energy spent on creating the fever could be used better elsewhere, no? Certain things collect in the liver or pancreas or kidneys (et al) and could perhaps draw the body’s resources there if required.

Another point… The pills were used AS pills, and never diluted. You could smell the C2H5OH when the bottles were opened (Ethyl-Alcohol was always used as the carrier for some reason- I’ve never heard of water being used). I suppose it would disolve the sugar pills? Anyway…

My Uncle’s eye turned in (spasmed) within hours and went blind after he ate the pills (a matter of a day or so until the sight was gone), so the cause & effect seemed clear at the time. Things like that don’t happen spontaneously to my knowledge.

So maybe modern Homeopathists use next to nothing in their pills, but that certainly doesn’t seem to have been the case back in the 1880-1920s. Maybe it *used* to work to some extent.

Samuel Hahnemann formulated his principles of homeopathy early on. They are the “Law of Similars” and the “Law of Infinitesimals”.

The “Law of Similars” is “like cures like”. The principle is as you suggest, that the small amount would trigger your body to react. But here’s the problem – your body is already reacting – or you wouldn’t be sick. So how does the body need a trigger to focus on the ailment you already have if it hasn’t already been focused on that ailment.

I have nausea, so I’ll take something that causes nausea to tell my body to fight nausea. Uh, but it already has a signal to fight nausea – I’m nauseated.

The “Law of Infinitesimals” is the even more bizarre part, the dilute to excess and therefore make more potent. This is contrary to basic chemistry, so the latest proposed explanation is that water has memory and somehow the special “succussions” of the water (special shaking) make the water remember what was in it even after diluting the active ingredient away. Uh huh. Right. Magic shaking.

As for it used to work, when Hahnemann developed homeopathy, the methods of conventional medicine were bleedings, leeches, and such. It was pre-Germ theory. Conventional medicine was hazardous, so doing nothing would have a better recovery rate. Throw in a little placebo to up the ante, and you have plenty of justification for homeopathy working while it really does nothing. Now that we have medicine developed on more sound principles that actually do something, homeopathy is a joke. But a dangerous joke when people turn to homeopathy instead of conventional medicine, such as chemo and radiation for cancer.

As for your uncle, maybe those sugar pills were dosed. Your phrasing suggests that the Old Doc turned the sugar pills into liquid medication. The dosing at the sugar pill level is the first step in the long process of diluting the mix to worthlessness. If so, then it is possible your uncle was dosed by something. Doesn’t make homeopathy worthwhile.

Yes, people are a bunch of cry babies, running to the doctor with every sniffle, cough, etc. when all they really need is to stay home, drink some chicken soup(hey, can’t hurt) and get some rest. Instead we hope for a “magic” pill to fix all our problems. People seem to be AFRAID to be sick, when that is what is approriate to training an effective immune system. Some times we need the doctor, but most people have no idea what is worth the doctors time and what isn’t, because they don’t try to know. Well, it’s their waste of money, but it contributes to long lines at the doctors office and expensive, non-essential testing (mainly to cover the doctors butt).

SciFi writer: hadn’t heard that description of homeopathy before. Thanks for the input. Sounds like an interesting research project.

Gary 7

This only proves that the “ol’ doc” was hideously irresponsible. It does not demonstrate any causative link between the sugar pills and the blindness.

“… It was by the simple expedient of the deliberate introduction of small quantities of POISON (say alkaloids like belladonna) to cause the SAME symptoms that supposedly gave the body the clues it needed to fight the illness.”

The thing is, that homeopathic rememdies don’t contain ANY of the substance that they are prepared from. And homeopathic practitioners claim that the more ultra-diluted preparations are more potent, which makes no sense based on anything anyone knows about biology, chemistry or physics.

“… it is worthy of investigation …”

Yes. Unfortunately, the few rigorous investigations of homeopathy that have been conducted found no difference between the homeopathic remedies and the placebo. I have heard it claimed that the placebo effect is the mechanism by which homeopathy “works”, but if that is the case, what’s the point of going through all the rigmarole of multiple massive serial dilutions?

Proving what? That biological systems show a large intrinsic variation? We’ve known that for decades.

You seem to be advocating that people should not visit their doctor when they feel unwell. I will grant you that things like the common cold, mild forms of ‘flu’ and milder cases of food poisoning, along with most minor injuries, can be dealt with without involving the medical profession. But who is best placed to make that judgement? The medical professionals.

Your position seems to me to be irresponsible, because more severe/virulent infections should be referred to medical pactitioners as soon as possible. The sooner they are treated (or isolated), the fewer other people you infect before you recover.

Yes, or, in fact, Ibuprofen. From 2-(4-(isobutyl) phenyl) propionic acid. I-bu-pro-fen. See?

My great-grandfather was a homeopathist *AND* M.D. and he found use for both in his practice as he rode his horse-drawn buckboard (or sled in winter) around to his patients (delivering animals as well as babies). I’ve never noticed any effect from the homeopathic remedies, but was faithfully dosed with them all through childhood. Interestingly, my uncle (as a lad) snuck into the drawer where the Ol’ Doc kept the sugar pills he would dose with the remedies, and said uncle grabbed a handful as he often did to eat for candy. Now this is not apocraphyl in ANY way. This is well-established fact: Said uncle got a severe spasm in one eye and eventually lost his vision in that eye. It seems the pills he took weren’t plain sugar, but had already been dosed with Belladonna or Merc.Sol (Salts of Mercury) and simply hadn’t been bottled yet. I knew that uncle all his life and that dead eye he had was always explained as his own bad judgement call on the visit to Ol’ Doc’s office.

I *try* to keep an open mind, but never so open that my brain threatens to fall out. Some people are too gullible for their own good, but that is not true amongst this crowd (for the most part). So maybe modern Homeopathists use next to nothing in their pills, but that certainly doesn’t seem to have been the case back in the 1880-1920s. Maybe it *used* to work to some extent.

As explained to me as a child, homeopathy was not a cure. Symptomatic illness was due to the body not being FOCUSED on the disease process. It was by the simple expedient of the deliberate introduction of small quantities of POISON (say alkaloids like belladonna) to cause the SAME symptoms that supposedly gave the body the clues it needed to fight the illness.

Now I hasten to point out that I have neither evidence nor belief in this system. Without the former, the latter is ridiculous, however, it is worthy of investigation from this diametrically opposed viewpoint of the methodology from a real “old-fashioned” practitioner.

There are millions of theories out there about god, the universe, where we came from and where we’re going and how to live long, healthy lives, but only a limited number are falsifiable and it is those with which we are most concerned. The scientific method is the most powerful tool ever developed by this species to separate fantasy from fact. Fly with it,,,

GAry 7

Um. He died of prostate cancer. He very publicly attempted to subdue the cancer with super mega over doses of vitamin C, which did absolutely nothing. It was a big story.

Which Linus Pauling who lived into his 90′s are you talking about?

I had a personal doctor ,40 years ago, who stated that of all the problems people came to him with, 80% cured themselves, 10% he could help them with(broken bones, antibiotics, other surgury) and 10% he could do nothing about, but offer his syspathy. For 63 years, the only help I’ve had from doctors, was the treatment of malaria, a vasectomy and the appropriate drug treatment for diabetes and an enlarged prostate(Hytrin and Avodart are really great drugs. I avoid surgury whenever possible).

Most of the health problems people take to Doctors are a waste of the doctors time and the patients money. I learned that from my Great grandmother, who lived to 78 years, weighed 240 lbs all her life and didn’t die until shortly after a doc made her lose 40 lbs. (Thanks Doc). She treated ALL of her problems except her diabetes, herself.

It’s still true, after all our advances, humans still live 3 score and 10, or a bit more. It’s just that a few more make it that long. However, I hope that advances in genetic knowledge may make it possible for some to live a great deal longer,,,

,,,sure hope they’re worth it,,,

GAry 7

That’s exactly the reason homeopathy received such a following in the first place. In the 1800s when it was invented, a trip to the doctor involved some pretty nasty stuff like bloodletting, and you can bet the instruments weren’t sterile. Compared to that, doing absolutely nothing at all would result in a much larger percentage of recoveries.

“Abdullah, what is electricity?”
Abdullah thought hard and said,” It is the force that makes thing go.”
“Yes, Abdullah, but what is it REALLY?”
After some more moments of hard thought, Abdullah responded with,” I think it’s f@#^ing magic, man,,,”

,,,which ties back to Arthur Clarks definition of magic,,,

Homeopathy or ANYTHING that triggers belief can produce the placebo effect, which is just more “magic”, ie, we don’t really understand how the mind can effect the body in such fundemental ways as to alleviate pain or accelerate healing. I think we really need more research on the placebo effect itself. Then maybe we could reduce dependence on pharmecueticals,,,’cause they’re so damn expensive!

Ah, vitamins, I read the Life Extension book back in 1980 but had already been using mega doses of vit C, B complex and E for years before that. Subsequent research has shown some genetic interaction with our nutrient input and state of immunity. For some folks they’re useful, for others,,,a waste of money. I doubt in my case it’s a placebo effect, since that diminishes over about 2 years to zero and my health function IS tied to that Vitamin input over the last 25 years or so. Again, anecdotal, but it works for me,,,I think,,,ask me again in another 25 years or so,,,

I notice Linus Pauling lived into his 90s, and died from an accident,,,he seemed to take great joy, dancing on the graves of his critics.

They point of this diatribe is that we have much to discover about how our genes, diet, exercise, beliefs, etc, affect our health but homeopathy is based on the idea that water “remembers” what was in it and that is the basis for it’s curative effect,,,all the RESEARCH I’ve seen indicates that’s a crock,,,and I do mean ALL. There ain’t no magic there.

GAry 7

My brother is a new-agey guy. A couple years ago he was sick over christmas. He was taking homeopathic remedies. He actually admitted taking placebos.

The truth is the true believers don’t care that there’s no medicine there, the method of how homeopathy “works” isn’t important, only the anecdotes that it does. The magical thinking is enough.

I just read the article by SkepChick, and her previous one. Great stuff.

If you really want mind-boggling, go to the BBC article she links, then hit the “Lesser-known alternatives” link in the sidebar. They drag in quotes from the promoter sites to describe the practices. Talk about an abuse of medical and scientific terms.

I really like the “Hopi Ear Candles” – not just regular old ear candling, but Hopi ear candling, with that tie in to some ancient civilization to give it “legitimacy”. For those not aware, ear candling is a technique to supposedly remove ear wax, clear the sinuses, and remove “toxins” from your head and brain. The candle is a wax-coated cloth cone inserted into the ear. The outer edge is lit and burned – typically a 12 inch candle burned down to 4 inches. The supposed principle is that the heat from the burning candle creates a slight vacuum that sucks air from inside the ear, and the heat helps melt ear wax. This suction pulls out the toxins and mucus from the rest of your head. Right. Anatomic impossibility – there’s this thing called the “ear drum” that prevents there being contact with your sinuses, never mind the brain. Physics also says it’s rubbish – a candle does create a very small vacuum right under the flame since the heated air rises, but that vacuum does not go very far and is very weak. Ear candling makes as much sense as trying to remove a smear of butter off your kitchen table by holding a candle over it. The stuff found in the candle remainder afterwards that believers point to as the wax and “toxins” from your ear? That is ash from the candle. Despite all this, plenty of people think ear candles are the best way to keep their ears clean and remove impacted wax.

“It’s much the same as ‘regular’ medicine…”
It is nothing like regular medicine.
Ibuprofin, for example, has ibuprofin in it. A homeopathic medicine has nothing in it. Oh, sugar. water maybe. A magical price tag.

At first Seamyst I thought your post was a joke, but I saw another comment you left on BA about your “agnosticism” towards some other quackery.

Just so you know, that’s not being open-minded, it’s just ignorant.

I was almost tempted to buy some homeopathic teething tablets when my daughter was cutting her two year molars (a cranky toddler will make you desperate).

By the way, I have Astrology/Occult/Uber-feminist for an English professor.

And, yes, I have an unblinded sample size of 1. :^)

My roommate was the Sybil of Wellness.