When I was younger, I was heavily involved in the occult from several years. The things I experienced, heard, saw, were very real. Even now 30 years later I shudder at some of the things I experienced.

Unless someone has for themselves investigated and experienced what the occult can do, they have no idea.

Yeah, and I can say exactly the same thing about LSD. Doesn’t mean that any of those real experiences accurately reflected objective reality though.

Consensus is formed by our perceptions of reality at a particular place and time.

GAry 7

Three philosophers travelling by train through England, one of them sees a field with a white sheep in it. He says “That proves that there are white sheep in England.”
The second says, “No, it proves that there is at least one sheep in one field in England”.
The third says to the first, “Wrong again. It merely proves that you claim you saw a sheep in that field that appeared to you to be white on one side…”

Question 2: Are there people around who take advantage of the gullibility of the general public and claim that they *can* speak to the dead (or God, or whatever you like)
My answer: Of course there are, and there always will be.

My point here is that people will always make such claims whether they are possible or not, in order to fool the public and benefit from them, usually financially. It doesn’t matter what you answer to question one, it does not affect the answer to question 2 (which I think we all agree with).

I’ve been to places in the mind scape most folks would be well advised to avoid, yet I STILL believe the scientific method rules, dudes. Use it wisely and you need never fear being lost in a universe of psychosis. Remember the movie a Beautiful Mind? Reason lead that great mathematician out of the darkness. It’s all the protection we have against a demon haunted universe. It’s really all we need. That and the most miniscule particle of faith that reason has the power to explain all. Eventually,,,

Peace,

GAry 7

From a group a skeptics I hope they will challenge my notions that I take for granted, even if they are little things I never questioned before like drinking 8 glasses of water a day.

I prefer to accept reality as it is rather than how I wish it to be. I have been much happier that way. I no longer believe in life after death (except that we live on in the memories of others and in our deeds that affect the world) and while that isn’t what I wish was reality, I cannot escape the fact that there is no credible and convincing evidence for a soul. All arguments for the soul are based on the standard logical fallacies and always come down to a staunch religious Belief.

I think that Norman and others being upset at Phil for lampooning the Medium crowds is rather hypocritical. I am sure they have tread heavily on other sacred cows without remorse. If I told Norman I was a staunch believer in Ramtha or throwing salt over my shoulder for good luck he’d laugh at me and rightfully so. Yet when someone challenges his own need to believe in an afterlife he is offended.

There may or may not be life after death. It is one of those things that probably cannot be proven (I don’t count ‘feelings’ or ‘strong inner knowledge’ as proof).

So as always, the believers will believe and the skeptics will constantly ask for proof.

What I think even the believers can agree on (I hope) is that folks like Van Praagh, Browne, Edward, DuBois, and others are parasites who feed on grief for money or the gratification of their own egos. That is the area where even those who beleive in an afterlife should come together with the skeptics and fight against the charlatans. Houdini saw first hand the terrible grief and horror of having a fake dishonor the memory of his mother. The sad thing is, though, that the ‘fake’ Believed in her own abilities.

We have a duty to shut these folks down in front of the world. You don’t need Browne and Edward and DuBois to confirm your belief in the afterlife. They, however, need to feed on your grief and need to believe that your departed loved ones are still there. I strongly feel that their crimes are on par with the worst crimes of humanity. They offer false hope, and taint the real memories of real people with false ones.

I completely and whole heartedly agree with you. This site is not, and should not, be under the control of the masses. The BA can post whatever he sees fit whether or not it has the slightest slither of astronomy in it.

Now, as is mentioned above, this site has had a number of people saying you shouldn’t say this or that and I apologise for falling into that category. It was wrong of me.

But as much as it is the BAs’ right to post what he wants it is also my right not to read this site, find an alternative astronomical news site, and to inform the BA why I have made that choice.

Anyhow. I wish you all well, and goodbye.

Sorry, Phil, but I’ve had too many personal experiences on that front, and I mean very clear and very lucid experiences. No, I won’t share because [1] they are very private and [2] as a skeptic on many other things, I realize to anyone else they are merely anecdotes. I get annoyed at many skeptic on this issue because they always go after the easy targets.

Noman, I’ve had what seemed to be very clear and lucid experiences, too, though not with communicating the dead. I would have liked to believe that things really were as I perceived them and some big hoax was being played on me, because…well, it would have been so “special” and interesting (it was still interesting, nevertheless, but not special). The reality was is that it was all in my head; lack of sleep coupled with medication induced something akin to a temporary psychosis. Even though I knew I was having irrational thoughts, there was a tug-o-war going on between the rational and irrational. Fortunately the rational won. You won’t share your experiences because they are anecdotal, but then you say you are skeptical of other things. So what are you really trying to say?

My experience, not so long ago, really drove home to me the extent to which our minds play games with us and how much we want to believe something even against all logic. We know how drugs affect people, we know how people can live in denial of whatever, experience extreme stress, how lack of sleep or sailing alone for days will induce hallucinations; we know that schizophrenia and psychosis are real experiences divorced from reality, but feel very real to the individual experiencing them; we know people still believe in myths and old wive’s tales despite a boatload of evidence to the contrary. Why then when someone “speaks to the dead” do you or others not look to our own minds first? That isn’t insensitivity – it comes from realizing how our minds work and how people will manipulate others’ minds. The occult just pulls us away from who we really are. It’s an escape from reality. And too, Phil did acknowledge on the radiocast that some people have this very real need and desire to connect with the dead- I don’t think he sounded insensitive at all but indignant towards mediums et al. There is no proof that anyone can do this, and shysters like John Edward should be mocked, imo; they are gaining fame and fortune from feeding delusions into people’s minds. Let the dead be dead.

Chip mentioned Carl Sagan: Seven months ago I splurged on the Cosmos DVD set, and everytime I feel a bit down, I put in one of the episodes. I love the music, the way Sagan conveys such wonder about the universe, and it reminds me of when the book Cosmos first came out in 1980. I don’t know…it makes me feel good to watch it. Sagan just has that effect on people.

That is how the dead speak to us. Life is for the living. There are ways to connect to the living that are mysterious and fun to think about: fortuities, ironic occurrences, “if I hadn’t done this, I wouldn’t have done that” sort of stuff that makes us wonder and amuses our brains. It’s not communicating with the dead to imagine what someone would say or do, and until someone shows some concrete proof that it is possible, then I will chalk it up with all the other psychological experiences that are known to us, and ask “Why is this person thinking this way, what’s the real story?”

As for your concerns about something being “outside the jurisdiction of this site,” I’ll repeat once again something I brought up more than once regarding political topics: skip these particular posts. I realize we (all of us) won’t always agree on certain topics, but I’d hope that that wouldn’t keep you (nor anyone) from continuing to come here for educational topics. On the other hand, I see that it isn’t simple disagreement that’s pushing you away, but the method of disagreement.
To use a tired cliche, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. If it’s astronomy that draws you here, then just look at the astronomy stuff. (Though I would personally also recommend the geology stuff as well, such as the entry about Crater Lake, but that’s just me.)

Anyway, I’m glad that some things on this site have helped you (and others, including myself) to learn a lot of things over the years.

I hate to tell you, Pete, but you don’t get to say what the jurisdiction of this site is. Only it’s author does. And perhaps before you take offense to someone’s pointing out the unsubstantiality of your illusory beliefs, you should take the time to question those beliefs. See if you hold them because the are comforting or because theres an actual logical reason to believe them. If you do this, you might still see this site as the “bastion of logic” that you once did – for it really hasn’t changed since then, just brought into question one of your beliefs that unfortunately (for any of us who have lost ones we love) has no basis in reality.

I am with you on this one. The BA really does seem to be speaking from ignorance this time.

When I was younger, I was heavily involved in the occult from several years. The things I experienced, heard, saw, were very real. Even now 30 years later I shudder at some of the things I experienced.

Unless someone has for themselves investigated and experienced what the occult can do, they have no idea.

Regards

Ozprof

I find myself unsure. From the viewpoint of an avid wannabe astronomer in the making I’d love to take this dead body, we all disapear view point. I love my evenings gazing up at the stars, wondering how we all came about, what is out there and what our solar system has in future for us. What pushes me away from ever visiting one of my favourite sites again is the total lack of sensativity. We all have our opinions on life, and death, and can express them here if we see fit. But to mock so openly is just cruel. I used to view this site as a bastion of logic, to help me through my youth. It has explained explosions on the Moon, the face on Mars and various other anomolies that are far too numerous to mention here. But to mock feelings, outside of astronomy is outside the juristiction of this site.

I hope your all happy.

Pete.

I’d be more suspicious if these guys *didn’t* slip up.

My memory can play me false in *this* lifetime. {g} For someone to remember things flawlessly from earlier incarnations is simply not believable.
–

I can see Sylvia Browne with a rotting corpse (Hey, it’s close to Halloween, let me get grisly) and her hand manipulating its jaw. Should be easy to get a grip with those talons of hers. Montel sits idly by and watches with his nose wrinkled slightly from the stench.

“Do you wanna tell me about Julie’s dad? He’s passed on right?”
*muffled crunching as jaw moves and you see Sylvia’s lips barely move and a muffled sound seems to come from the body!*
“I’m getting a name that sounds like an ‘Muh’… muh… that sound might be in the name?”
*More visceral sounds and Sylvia deftly maniuplates the body*
“Water? There was water? Julie’s dad might have died near water. Did he die in water?”
*muffled visceral sounds*
“A seven? he’s saying there’s a number seven involved.”
*more muffled visceral sounds, only slightly agitated*
“I am not a deaf bitch, you rotting heap of bones!”
*dejected muffled noise*
“That’s better. Folks, the dead can be cranky too.”
*studio laughter*

Those who believe the dead can’t come back to life haven’t seen this place at quitting time.