I’ve been watching BSG for some time now (which is obvious enough if you search this blog for the word "frak"), and the show has a surprising depth of complexity. Surprising to many because it’s science fiction; but I’ve been reading SF since I was a boy, so complexity in that genre doesn’t surprise me. I’m surprised simply because TV shows don’t generally show such dimensionality. BSG has it, and the last few episodes ending Season 2 and starting Season 3 have had it in spades.
This past week’s story was so current I was shocked. A very brief synopsis (SPOILERS!): cylons are the bad guys, and have nearly wiped out all humans. Some humans escaped and found a planet to colonize, but the cylons followed and took over. There were lots of allegories to WWII (some people turned collaborator, some went underground to become insurgents, most just followed along) and some obvious references to our current situation in the US. with the Iraq war.
The humans eventually rebelled and escaped. But back on board the ship, a ring of six people started grabbing people they thought were collaborators, tried them without their knowledge, and if found guilty blew them out the airlock. This situation was handled very well by the writers and actors, I’ll add.
What really shocked me was, at the end (BIG SPOILERS!) it was revealed that all this was orchestrated by the President of the humans. He authorized the power to The Six to try and execute collaborators without public trial, without legal voice, and even without their knowledge. The President defended this position, and he in fact made rational arguments. These arguments, however, did not make what he did right.
If this topic sounds familiar, maybe it should. I’ve written about this before (first here, and then following up on it here). In the show, the President resigns (for other reasons) and the new President gives amnesty to all collaborators. That’s neither here nor there for the purposes I’m writing now.
What is most interesting to me about this is that Mrs. BA and I let the Little Astronomer watch the show. We generally don’t; BSG is decidedly for grown ups, with many episodes having very mature themes. But we decided to let her watch this, figuring that if things got too intense we could tell her to go somewhere else for a few minutes. They never did, so she got to watch the whole thing. I’m glad she did.
After the show, she was a little confused. So we talked a bit about Hitler, the Hitler Youth, and collaborators (direct themes of earlier episodes of BSG). We talked about what it meant to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, what the difference is between "innocent" and "not guilty" (a subtle difference, but as wide as the gulf between stars), and how some people think it’s better that 100 guilty people go free rather than jail one innocent person, and how some people think the opposite.
That last point was crucial. She said, "I think it would be OK if one innocent person goes to jail if it means 10,000 guilty people do too." I then asked her, how about 9000 people? Or 2000? Where do you draw the line? We then explained what a "slippery slope" argument was, and how you have to be very, very careful when drawing a line in the sand. Where do you draw it? When is it okay to jail an innocent person? Is it ever?
Liberal or conservative, libertarian or autocrat, right/left/middle/agnostic, I don’t care. These are not theoretical issues. Maybe they never were, but they have solid impact these days, very solid. You might think Battlestar Galactica is just a TV show, or you might think it’s a literary masterpiece, but either way, it’s an excellent stepping stone to talk about topics that really, we all need to be talking about now. My daughter is young, and there’s no way she can understand the subtleties of these arguments, but I’m hoping that just by talking about them with her she is learning how to think about them. I swear, if more people knew how to think, this world would be a far finer place to live.
October 31st, 2006 at 11:38 pm
To your comment - if more people knew how to think, this world would be a far finer place to live — I can only say from my more than 70 years of life — hurray for you. Thank you and please continue to try to teach your daughter and your readers how to think (for ourselves). I only can hope Will Rogers really was right about fooling all of the people sometimes, and some of the people all the time but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time. There are times when I wonder how unable the human race is to truly think. I don’t like cynicism but seem to drift that way much too often in recent years.
October 31st, 2006 at 11:50 pm
I’m not a huge fan of Sci-fi tv shows, but I do respect them deeply.
I think it’s great that you’re teaching your little girl to ask questions and think deeply.
Just please, whatever you do, don’t make her social life miserable by turning her into a full-blown nerd! Social life is accually VERY important, and it helps.
Don’t forget to start saving up for college! =O
November 1st, 2006 at 12:16 am
I’m so thrilled that the BA is watching BSG! It’s not perfect- but it is fascinating in its treatment of ethical issues.
For me- one of the most interesting episodes is when they capture and then proceed to torture a Cylon (in the first series). They had a very graphical representation of what ‘water-boarding’ looks like, in which the Cylon had his head dunked and held down in a bucket of water. Pretty horrible to watch.
The great thing about that writing is that the viewer was not told whether he/she should approve of the ‘heroes’ using torture. It was left to the viewer to decide whether torture is always wrong, even when confronting an enemy that had committed genocide.
As a general rule- I’d be worried about anyone under ~10 watching the show- but it all depends on the kid- and the level of parental guidance.
PLEASE DO A BA BSG PAGE! pointing out the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in the show.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:24 am
I’m with you, Phil
The last ep of BSG left me speechless.
Go see The Best Writer On The Internets - she does the Friday “Galactica” thread.
.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:25 am
I’m with you, Phil
The last ep of BSG left me speechless.
Go see The Best Writer On The Internets - she does the Friday “Galactica” thread.
(Again?)
.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:26 am
I’m with you, Phil
The last ep of BSG left me speechless.
Go see The Best Writer On The Internets - she does the Friday “Galactica” thread.
(Again?)
(I’m blocked?)
.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:26 am
I’m with you, Phil
The last ep of BSG left me speechless.
Go see “First Draft” - Athenae does the Friday “Galactica” thread.
(Again?)
(I’m blocked?)
.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:33 am
Crud - sorry.
I kept getting code when I hit “submit.”
Sorry, again.
.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:55 am
BSG and the earlier SciFi classic, B5: Different from each other but both with pertinent political and historical overtones and chilling parallels.
Sure, the various Star Treks are fun and have a few classic episodes, but these two series (BSG and B5) place good TV SciFi writing on a higher level.
November 1st, 2006 at 1:40 am
A little off-topic
We’re living in creepy times. ‘Media Matters for America’ today published an internal ‘blacklist’ leaked from ABC. It contains a list of companies who demand that their advertising not be included on affiliates hosting the left-wing Air America radio channel.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200610310008
I wonder how many of these companies advertise on Limbaugh’s show.
November 1st, 2006 at 2:04 am
[…] Battlestar Galactica as political and social allegoryI ve been watching BSG for some time now (which is obvious enough if you search this blog for the word “frak”), and the show has a surprising depth of complexity. Surprising to many because it s science fiction; but I ve been reading SF … […]
November 1st, 2006 at 2:41 am
“Just please, whatever you do, don’t make her social life miserable by turning her into a full-blown nerd! Social life is accually VERY important, and it helps.”
Four thoughts on this:
First, I somewhat know Phil beyond just this blog - we have mutual friends, we’ve talked on the phone, I think we’ve even had dinner together once, before he got super-famous - and I doubt that he’d turn anyone into a “full blown nerd,” whatever that is, even if he was capable. By all accounts he’s a well adjusted guy, socially very competent, respectful of others’ freedom to be themselves, and one of the few people that I am actually glad to see has procreated. He’s in no apparent danger of ruining his offspring.
Second, I doubt any parent’s ability to turn their children into “full-blown nerds,” whatever those are, through their parenting or example. The only self-identified nerds that I know appear to share a trait that no parent can instill in their child, short of getting a lucky roll of the genetic dice: an exceptionally high level of cognitive functioning.
Third, “full blown nerds” (whatever they are) might have social lives that are perfectly satisfying to them. Have you ever asked one whether that is so? And when you did, were you able to answer their question, “what business is it of yours?”
Fourth, spelling isn’t accually very important, I guess.
With apologies to Phil - I’ve been reading too much Autism Diva lately.
November 1st, 2006 at 3:16 am
Luckily for kids, we have Madrasas and other similar venues to help them learn how to think.
Jess Tauber
November 1st, 2006 at 5:16 am
I know some on here may not consider it an example of stellar writing, but I do know that Star Trek was able to comment on many issues that were around in the 1960’s, such as racism, that had the show taken place in a modern era, they would have been torn apart for even thinking of bringing the topic up. But by it being a sci-fi show, if anyone objected, they could say that it was just fiction and that it took place in the future.
And that is why I love it when shows like BSG, B5, Start Trek(any series), tackle modern issues and basically break it down for those who may not understand what it is like under those circumstances.
November 1st, 2006 at 5:43 am
I’m always suspicious of people who dismiss smart, well-written programs as “just a TV show.” Like any tool or technology (or science), everything depends on how it’s used, and “Battlestar Gallactica” does’t have to be perfect to be intelligent and thought-provoking — which it is.
This is such a great story of how to teach kids early about how to grapple with tough, convoluted moral/ethical questions, and how to question their own (and society’s) kneejerk assumptions. The Little Astronomer is lucky to have such a devoted father.
November 1st, 2006 at 6:13 am
My favorite show (since Deadwood went off the air). I love how they present both sides of every issue - from abortion to torturing cylons, stealing elections, and executing collaborators. Nothing is black and white, just like real life.
November 1st, 2006 at 6:49 am
It’s no ‘Red Dwarf’ thats for sure!!
November 1st, 2006 at 7:04 am
I must say that I am ashaimed. I didn’t get a chance to see that episode of BSG.
Nevertheless, I’m with you phil. 100%.
November 1st, 2006 at 7:22 am
Love the show and have been touting it with all my friends and family to watch, not for the scifi, but the social commentary.
The episode described was very good, but the previous episode, depicting the human insugency and the desperate (and attempted justified) use of human suicide bombers against the cylons was absolutely brilliant. And if the connection wasn’t made to Iraq where the U.S. “are” the cylons, there for the “benifit” of the humans (Iraqis), you were watching a diferent show.
But way too intense for the little one.
November 1st, 2006 at 8:02 am
I do not watch BSG - mostly because of the earlier version - but I guess I am about to start. I couldn’t agree more on the concept of “teaching to think” - with absence of the word “how” or “what” in the sentence.
SF has (nearly) ALWAYS done this though - and as a long-time SF reader, you should be aware of this. Heinlein, et al, was making serious social commentary long before Star Trek - but ST did an excellent job of making very similar “timely” statements to the masses. Farscape did a reasonable job as well - and many shows that do now descend into the sheer terror aspect seem to try to make some commentary of this nature. For that matter, so did “All in the family” I guess.
Oh - and to echo an earlier comment - you REALLY need to get TiVo - or any other applicable PVR system. Dude - it is the ONLY way to watch TV!
JC
November 1st, 2006 at 8:51 am
Battlestar Galactica is one of the best TV shows on. Period. Not just sci fi, but any show.
Phil, great topic for the blog.
Confuddled said:
>Just please, whatever you do, don’t make her social life miserable by turning her into a full-blown nerd! Social life is accually VERY important, and it helps.
BlueCollarScientist replied:
>Second, I doubt any parent’s ability to turn their children into “full-blown nerds,†whatever those are, through their parenting or example. The only self-identified nerds that I know appear to share a trait that no parent can instill in their child, short of getting a lucky roll of the genetic dice: an exceptionally high level of cognitive functioning.
There’s “self-identified” nerds, and there’s nerd by accusation. Most nerds I know didn’t set out to be nerds, they just discovered their interests, and got labeled by others.
>Third, “full blown nerds†(whatever they are) might have social lives that are perfectly satisfying to them. Have you ever asked one whether that is so? And when you did, were you able to answer their question, “what business is it of yours?â€
While I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn’t dismiss Confuddled’s comments so easily. Childhood and teenage years are difficult. Fitting in socially is a powerful need. As one who struggled with it (and still do), I certainly appreciate Confuddled’s point. Ultimately each of us has to find our own way through, learn how we fit in and how to cope. Some reject convention and relish being different. Others want to blend in and fly under the radar. Others still are oblivious. It comes down to personality differences.
I’m not sure I’m qualified to tell others how to keep their children from becoming social misfits. It’s not like I have a success rate.
November 1st, 2006 at 8:54 am
Much of great “classic” Science Fiction, especially Heinlein, had little to due with science and much to do with social commentary.
November 1st, 2006 at 9:39 am
Best show on television, sci-fi or otherwise. The WW2 references were very powerful, especially when it came to the NCP and the uniforms.
November 1st, 2006 at 9:41 am
Back in the ’70s, when the original BSG was airing, TV SciFi writing was pretty crude and simplistic(AKA 1920s style space opera). I believe it was either Frank Herbert(Dune) or Hal Clemant who was berated for writing for TV by some of his contemporaries who saw writing for TV as a cop out. He rsponded,” So long as good writers avoid being involved in Hollywoods productions, it will remain crap,,,” (paraphrase). Over the last 30 years, SciFi writing for the tube has improved several orders of magnitude and I for one could not be happier. SciFi was my first introduction to thoughtful writing(at age 11 I found a book called Mutants and devoured it). I truely believe SciFi has a greater impact teaching critical thinking skills that ANY other genre, which is why I like to refer to it as SubversiveFiction.
Until the Wall fell, in 1990, Russian SciFi writers were forbidden to postulate different social scenarios that might be an improvement on Comunism, since that was supposed to be the ultimate social system, “obviously” there could be no improvement.
My, how things have changed.
Evolution is sooooo dang slow. I could wish humanity would learn the important lessons communicated by our Great teachers more quickly, but I accept it’s EVOLUTION rather than REVOLUTION.
I expect as we move out into the high frontier, humanity will still be a quarelsome, agravating, thoughtful, hateful, loving, compassionate, species for at least another 10,000 years but EVENTAULLY we will all, or nearly all, become the best that we can be. Wish I could be there for that,,,
Peace,
Gary 7
PS, I wonder what would happen if the more perspicacious of our tribe got involved in politics? So long as it is left to the less evolved, we will continue along the difficult path of wars, rumors of wars and selfish acquisition,,,
November 1st, 2006 at 10:07 am
Addendum:
It’s interesting how we become labled as “nerds”. I was called “teachers pet” almost from day one, because I studied and pulled high grades. But heck, it was all so fraking interesting. I became a religious rebel in the 7th grade, when our kindly teacher at the Luthern day school I attended in Inglewood, Calif, declined to study the section of our science book dealing with dionosaurs, because,”As we all know(sic) the earth was only created 6000 years ago, so there could not be such creatures,,,”. I decided at that moment that ANY belief system that people could use as a crutch, to avoid the need to think, was obviously WRONG. I kept that opinion to myself, because even at 13 years old, I already knew it would only cause me serious problems with “authority” to espouse such convictions. But I made it my business to read every hard science book I could find at the library. That’s how I became a nerd and yes, it was difficult, socially. However, when I discovered no one ever bothered the strongest gorilla,er, I mean, jocks, I started lifting weights and within six months no one bothered me any more. They still thought me a nerd but left me in peace.
When my son was 13, I started him on weight lifting and he obtained the same result. He is now considered a highly desirable male by most females, has exceptional social skills and is a handsome, exteremely intelligent man. Still a batchelor though. No woman has succeeded in snaring him, though I have hopes,,,
Both my daughters are extremely gifted, beautiful and socially ept (as opposed to inept). Both have been married and divorced, but I ascribe that to the difficiences of the males of our tribe. They have a longer way to go in the evolutionary department,,,
Gary 7
November 1st, 2006 at 10:10 am
I know you said “neither here nor there” for the Truth Commission, but I was secretly rooting for that as soon as I saw the first “trial.” I see a lot of parallels in what happens on BSG and what happened to South Africa - the different races separated, betrayals on both sides, painful old grudges and intense fear of what would happen if the other side gained power. I’m really interested to see what will become of this.
November 1st, 2006 at 11:20 am
Phil this was one of your best non-astro posts in a long time, and I’m not saying that because I agree with you 90% on this post =-)
Nor because I have a 6 yr old daughter that is starting to ask a lot of “social” questions.
Nor because I think BSG is the best written and produced show on TV right now.
Ahh heck, I can’t say that those reasons don’t help - but still, its a great post, thanks!
-(RE)-
November 1st, 2006 at 11:22 am
I’ve never watched (the new) Battlestar, but that was a nice review. Please let me recommend Susan Campbell Bartoletti’s book Hitler Youth: growing up in Hitler’s shadow. It’s for “young adults” so it’s easy to read and has lots of pictures, but I sure wish more “adult-adults” would learn from history that relates so much to the present.
Bartoletti covers how young people were led to join the Hitler Youth, but also those who resisted, some unto death. I’ve studied the White Rose resistance group and was very moved to see them and others like them included in the discussion, as some who did not go along. The stories of children and young people unwilling to harm those weaker than themselves, and willing then to accept blame and die trying to protect their friends, touched me deeply.
I cannot recommend this book enough. It and Bartoletti’s previous book Kids on Strike! should be in every classroom; we might have a better country if these lessons were learned, by kids and adults. Nice work.
www.scbartoletti.com/
www.scbartoletti.com/books/hitleryouth.html
November 1st, 2006 at 11:37 am
I don’t have time to watch TV during the school year, so I’ll guess I just have to watch it on DVD. I just remember the original one when I was in elementary school /junior high and one of my friends having such a HUGE crush on Dirk Benedict.
Phil, you’re a nerd/geek in the best possible sense: an intelligent, thoughful human who thinks about the world around him.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Phil,
I have been lurking on your site for many months, This is the first time I felt compelled to Post. I believe your statement
“I swear, if more people knew how to think, this world would be a far finer place to live.”
This statement has quite the “Orwellian” tone to it. Who is to determine what is the proper way to think. If your intent was to imply that it is better to question assumptions and analyze ones reasons and motivations, I believe I would agree with you. But lets be clear there is not only one way to think and because some one doesn’t think and believe the way you do doesn’t make them wrong. People who are religious are thinking just fine, They just have never allowed themselve to question thier assumtions. I would imagine some religious folks have done this and still come to a different conculsion than you. Again their thinking is not flawed it just doesnt agree with you. You may argue with their assumptions but their thinking again is just fine.
I hope and I do not believe your intent was to imply that anyone who doesn’t agree with your views and conclusions are wrong. That would make you as bad and as arogant as the Young Earth creationists.
I enjoy BSG and hope it continues for many more seasons — Keep up the good work
November 1st, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I wonder just how many of those folk who could really benefit from dramas which are allegorical and didactive actually WATCH them, or, in the case of scifi, read it (apart from the many versions of the Bible, of course)?
November 1st, 2006 at 12:40 pm
i read a paper that described “the limit” at roughly six. that is:
10,000 criminals jailed, 1 innocent jailed = ok
9,000 / 1 = ok
6,000 / 1 = ok
2,000 / 1 = ok
6 / 1 = let’s examine the situation.
it was a survey with a large sample size. i’ll find the link.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pm
I remember not even that many years ago thinking that I was so lucky living in a democratic civilised country. Maybe there was some stuff you would disagree with in politics, but none of it a matter of life and death. Always thinking that in a democratic society people would never allow the sort of things that you see happen in military dictatorships…
Now we have people inprisoned without trial, without even being charged. Armies sent of to war without proper equipment and protection. A US president who actually says out loud that the whole Geneva convention is a bit vague on what human dignity actually means…
It all happened and nothing was done to stop it. Today more than ever we need to educate our children and provide them with the tools to make informed decisions. No, we don’t all have to agree on everything. But blind faith in your leaders will get you into trouble…
November 1st, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Jeez, Acteon, give it a rest. World War 2 was over 60 years ago…
November 1st, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Yeah, I suppose you’re right. We’re just fine. Everything is A OK.
November 1st, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Tim:
“Who is to determine what is the proper way to think.”(?)
Empirical reality determines the “proper” way to think. If your thinking doesn’t lead to a body of “knowledge” that accurately reflects empirical reality, it isn’t really very useful.
November 1st, 2006 at 2:18 pm
BSG is a perfect allegory of our times. Starbuck used to be a cocky, cigar smoking, ladies man. Now he’s a woman
November 1st, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Wow, Jesus. Thanks for setting us straight, John! I almost thought Acteon was talking about our current situation. Now I know he was actually talking about WWII.
Good to know I don’t have to worry about all those things he mentioned.
Anyway, Battlestar Galactica is beyond any doubt the best hour on television. Period.
November 1st, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Uh, John, Acteon was saying out loud what I was very strongly implying in my post. So (s)he’s right on the money with that statement.
November 1st, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Tim,
You COMPLETELY missed the BA’s point! It is NOT about teaching people WHAT to think or HOW to think! It is about teaching people to THINK!!! Most people do not think. As I learned many years ago, what most people consider “thinking” is merely “rearranging their predjudices”.
=====
“People who are religious are thinking just fine, They just have never allowed themselve to question thier assumtions.”
=====
So WRONG it’s sickening! If you never question your assumptions, YOU ARE NOT THINKING!!!!!!!
November 1st, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Phil;
BSG has become my favorite–and pretty much ONLY–hour of TV per week; simply the best treatment of our social woes since those original Trek episodes about racism and bigotry and getting your job taken over by a machine.
There was a great BA moment last season, in the episode when the President and crew had finally found the Tomb of Athena on Kobol. The map of the way to Earth turns out to be a nifty planetarium show, with all the constellations of the Zodiac highlighted as seen from Earth, and there, in the middle of Scorpius (huh?), the crew visually identify the Lagoon Nebula, even using the Messier designation for it. WOW…I guess they lost contact with the Thirteenth Tribe sometime after Charles published his list…
Anyway, great blog, and some terrific interplay from the BA fans. Keep up the good work!
Tom Epps
USNS Arctic
…all @ sea…
November 1st, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Yeah, Tom, I laughed at that too. I’ve been meaning to talk with Kevin, the science consultant for BSG, on that, and tease him a bit.
I wish they had used pulsars instead, but that might have been too difficult to portray quickly in the show.
November 1st, 2006 at 4:20 pm
With a show of this overall quality, I’m willing to forgive the occasional times where science takes a back seat to the story.
November 1st, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Did all of you scientist know that you would be the first to get killed if the radical muslims got control of the world? As a scientist give me a better plan to fight for our freedom.
November 1st, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Plus can we give a shout out to John Kerry for calling the military uneducatated. He is one swell of a guy.
November 1st, 2006 at 5:04 pm
BSG is great. I was floored when they show a suicide bomber from the point of view of the suicide bomber! Wow! I didn’t like the end of season 2 since it was so obvious New Caprica was a bad idea. I forgave them when I saw the episodes that came out of it.
As for Phil’s daugher, I could tell a very embarassing story about her early geekdom, but will refrain
Seriously, I don’t like children, but she won me over…she’s all right
My fear is that her teenage rebellion will be becoming a moon hoax believer and preaching about the face on Mars!
Rob
November 1st, 2006 at 5:26 pm
“As a scientist give me a better plan to fight for our freedom.”
May I suggest that “not throwing away the freedoms you’re trying to preserve” might be a good first step? (Which is, oddly enough, a repeated theme from the first two seasons of BSG. Can’t comment on the third season yet, as I don’t have cable; I get the show in feast-famine mode as DVD sets come out.)
I’ll also bristle at the “radical Muslim” statement, too; there’s plenty of other faiths/creeds/etc (decidedly including some sects of Christianity) willing to put science up against the wall in the name of spiritual purity.
As to BSG as the subject of a Bad Astronomy analysis, well, RARE WATER! Nothing else quite got my hackles up, even the inevitable “sound in space” and “engines are on all the time” stuff, quite as badly as that ol’ chestnut. Despite that, I love the show to bits.
— Steve
November 1st, 2006 at 6:40 pm
BA - “Uh, John, Acteon was saying out loud what I was very strongly implying in my post. So (s)he’s right on the money with that statement.”
I know, you have the subtlety of a sledgehammer.:> If you’re trying to shoehorn BSG to fit your (and Acteon’s) political views, you’re bound to fail. The show’s too complex for that, it walks that line on the razor’s edge. Hence the Occupied France/Iraq juxtaposition.
November 1st, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Didn’t know the show had that much to it as I assume most of the TV stuff like it is formula drivel. I’ll have to watch it. Wasn’t the Talon theme from that Roddenberry’s Earth, Final Conflict pretty similar? I didn’t watch much of that one either.
As to the kids, they understand a whole lot more than they often get credit for. I always (and still do) discussed things with my son. You talk on their level, but not much needs to be withheld otherwise. After all, it is the real world and they are in it too.
November 1st, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Tim said, “This statement has quite the “Orwellian†tone to it. Who is to determine what is the proper way to think.”
OK, Tim, how about this for a rule to make the world a better place.
MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
If everyone followed *that* rule, things would be much better.
As for where to draw the line, you don’t. You just do your best. If you declare “no innocent shall ever be punished”, I’m not sure that’s possible unless someone invents a perfect truth serum.
November 1st, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Thanks for this post and to all for the subsequent comments — I’m now planning to start watching this new Battlestar Galactica series.
A quick note to Gary 7: I, too, once missed out on an important science section because of a teacher with Young Earth Creationist views. It was in 9th grade in public school and the subject was…astronomy.
November 1st, 2006 at 7:22 pm
The geneva convention IS vague about POW rights. The biggest issue being what exactly constitutes a POW. I invite everyone who hasn’t done so to read Article IV of the geneva convention. Don’t read a summary, don’t read an interpretation, read the REAL DOCUMENT. This section lists 6 groups of people who are to be considered members of the armed forces of a conflict and as such deserve POW status. The first group consists of “members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias” ok, we are definitely fighting militia groups of a party. Read on on to the second group clarifying what a militia is. “[Militia members shall be treated as POWS] provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.”
Part A: this is debatable, im sure there are organized groups of militias and as well as unorganized individuals. B this is deffinitely NOT TRUE, when have any of you ever seen video (even/especially terrorist video) that shows these people as having “a distinctive sign recognizable from a distance.” Part C: nope, these people would often prefer to hide in a building a couple blocks away and remote detonate a car bomb. Part D: the vaguest of all, those complying with the rules of war, executing americans in front of a camera? i don’t think so.
As it stands, i disagree strongly with the geneva conventions, for the reasons i just outlined. I think it is a nescesity we provide fair treatment for all combatants because i doubt we will be fighting many people who fulfill all these requirements any time soon. America needs to rise above and create its own legislated rules on the treatment of prisoners, which i think we are making progress towards. but the the rules outlined in the geneva convention are not the way to do it.
November 1st, 2006 at 8:21 pm
Gary Ansorge said: “Over the last 30 years, SciFi writing for the tube has improved several orders of magnitude and I for one could not be happier.”
Yet Hollywood still manages to produce stuff like “The Core” and “Armageddon”.
*sigh*
But in general, you’re right. There are a quite a few intelligent shows out there, even outside the sci-fi realm. “Law and Order” comes to mind.
November 2nd, 2006 at 12:37 am
I liked the last show too. It is the classic case of the liberators throwing out the tyrants only to become the tyrants.
Adam,
I can tell from your post that you haven’t watched BSG. I can think of two episodes that address how the advocates of peace failed humanity. The capture of the human by the cylons is a result of giving up the fight. Or at least one of the reasons.
You ought to read Eric Hoffer’s book The True Believer. A man who Presidents Reagan and Eisenhower read as well as Barry Goldwater. This book addresses mass movements of extremism
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:41 am
I think it’s great that you and Mrs. BA have these kinds of discussions with your daughter. I agree with Skeptigirl about kids’ ability to understand things and that’s often underestimated (or worse, people like my sister want to keep their kids so innocent). When I was that age my parents were more the “Go look it up in the dictionary yourself” and try to figure things out for yourself types. But kids need guidance so they learn how to ask good questions. It’s never too early to learn logic and critical thinking skills, something that’s often lacking in school lessons.
November 2nd, 2006 at 3:02 am
There’s “self-identified†nerds, and there’s nerd by accusation. Most nerds I know didn’t set out to be nerds, they just discovered their interests, and got labeled by others.
And many nerds-by-accusation label others as “jocks,” or with other names indicating chemical dependency, low intelligence, an excess of social compliance, or etc. The sword cuts both ways, and those whom most people see as socially most successful are not universally respected by others for those supposed accomplishments.
While I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn’t dismiss Confuddled’s comments so easily. Childhood and teenage years are difficult. Fitting in socially is a powerful need.
That’s one point on which I disagree. It is a powerful need for many, even most, but not for all. We cannot ethically dictate to individuals who have little interest in socializing that they ought to engage in it anyway. Nor can we ethically dictate this to individuals who have the desire to socialize, but lack the ability to do so successfully and have made a decision to express their socialization in various ways that we might judge to be circumscribed or unusual.
I think the sooner we all stop trying to force others to behave in matters of triviality in the manner we would like them to behave, the better. It will result in a lot more people being happy on this planet.
November 2nd, 2006 at 5:13 am
Interesting comment to my comment!
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Hmmmm!
November 2nd, 2006 at 5:44 am
“If more people knew how to think…..”
What a wonderful phrase; thanks, Phil.
November 2nd, 2006 at 6:43 am
I would have written “If more people knew how to think for themselves….”. Saying “if more people knew how to think” indicates that you are saying that opinions are wrong. And opinion cannot be wrong by definition.
On the other hand, some people attempt to hold views that fly in the face of fact. These are not opinions; these are factually incorrect views. An opinion is something that cannot (yet) be substantiated by sufficient evidence to become “true”.
I understand what you were (probably) trying to say, but the wording of your phrase made me a little bit edgy.
Oh and I rather like BSG:). Cool, thoughtful show. And number 8 (boomer) is hot (alright, so I’m a little bit shallow at times heh).
November 2nd, 2006 at 6:44 am
btw, each time I post a comment I am getting an error. Based on the comments of other people (and the multiple posts in other topics) I’d guess that this error isn’t just happening to me.
November 2nd, 2006 at 7:30 am
gopher65, I get those [i]error[/i] too.
November 2nd, 2006 at 8:34 am
Yep, I too get the error message - or at least I probably will when I post this …
Just click back then refresh and you should find your mesage posted .. unless the BA’s fixed this now which I won’t know until this is posted.
Babylon 5 was the best SF show I’ve ever seen. Dr Who and Firefly were also great & BSG certainly has had its share of great episodes & is up there as well.
Alas, in Oz channel 10 which had been screening Galactica seems to have stopped doing so … Last ep I caught was the Resurrection ship Part II one,
I think, where Apollo was floating in space & didn’t wish rescue and the Pegasus Admiral Caine was killed by the tortured cyclon prisoner.
Well, ok the tortured female cyclon. Alright make that the tortured female cyclon who is Balthazars (not-so?) imaginary friend. They, like the US overseas at present do seem to have a tendency to think of violence as the
first and main response rather than rational debate or negotiation or other
alternatives that don’t involve needless pain and suffering don’t they?
Where’s the America of Martin Luther King and the Abolitionists gone?
Oh finally, no, Adam, I don’t think scientists would be the first people killed i
in the extremely unlikely event of radical Muslims taking over the World.
I think the first people they’d kill would be those who have been oppressing them, bombing and invading their nations and treating their deeplyheld beliefs with uttercontempt and hatred. Inotherwords thefirstpeoplethey’d kill would be the neo-cons and their military and political backers.
You know something else? I wouldn’t blame them - and if you really had any idea of what the average Palestinean or Iraqi human being has been through and is enduring now you wouldn’t either. Iraq is experiencing incivilan casualtie terms AT LEAST a 9-11 per month. The Palestineans are enduring their own Jewish holocuats that has been on-going since the
Catastrophe of 1948 when people in lands faraway decided to give their land away for them. Those foreign imperialists did this to salve their own consciences. The great irony is they led to the persecution of another group of Semites. (Palestineans and Arabs are Semitic, making Israel ironically a Semitic anti-Semitic nation) It also meant the
Nazi’s suceeded - the Jewish population in Germany was no more - the survivors were all in Israel instead. Worse yet, the Nazi spirit of hate and persecution of others cobnverted tehJews -just lookat tehrhetoric employed by Jewish extremists and settlers ontheirstolen land. Fas as Ican see Isreal is the (inadvertant, admittedly) creation of Hitler and Fascisms revenge on the West -and theres food for thought if you dare think about it.
Go on I challenge you -put your brains in gear actually thinking
about the other side of the story rather than swallowing the Isreali lobby’s
self-serving & ultimately self destructive propaganda for once ..
(Assuming you were sick enough to want to do so what better way to wipe out all Jews than assemble them together in a small patch of disputed
land surrounded by enemies and feeding thier anger by continual injustice?What beterway to corrode, diminish, shame and harm the United States of America than have it seen - justifiably as an agent of oppression and evil attacking innocents and fighting a war OF terror against nations invaded for the wrong imperialist reasons?)
Oh and before I cop the predictable flaming - I am NOT anti-America -just
a straight talking friend telling you what you need to hear. I”d rather the West “won” than the Islamic fanatics and rather America ruled the world than China .. But best of all Government of the globe’s people for
the globes pople with all humans having their inalienable rights respected -not just a few.
Shalom, Salaam, peace.
—–
After the 1973 Isreali-Arab war, an astronomer named a newly discovered
asteroid was named Ra-Shalom. Ra for the Eyptian Sun God ofOld and Shalom the Hebrew for peace.
November 2nd, 2006 at 8:38 am
Yup, got the error message as expected.
Also ruddy typos andspacing stuffups (SIGH)
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:03 am
Ok, I’ll see if I can dredge up an error flag!
Seriously, I have not recently watched BSG, and would be surprised if your latest series has been,(or is), being shown here in Australia. Certainly the earlier series have been, but I had not been an avid follower.
I have generally considered all Sci Fi for TV to be nothing more than “Space Westerns’, with recycled scripts. I don’t mind movies of “classic” books, so long as the treatment is faithful. And the occasional time I do watch something, I do rant about the “sound in space and noisy engines all the time and the sight of stars wizzing by as if they were only a couple of million miles or kilometers away” syndome. Ignoring that, I do appreciate a clever or different treatment or theme in the stories, but not often.
I do wish there was a sequel to the movie “Silent Running” though, and for a TV series, an updated version of “A for Andromeda”.
Ivan.
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:06 am
Yeah, and I did get that error message thing. But as the post appears above, I am going to ignore it anyway. So there…
Ivan.
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:14 am
Yeah, and I did get that error message thing. But as the post appears above, I am going to ignore it anyway. So there…
Ivan.
PS… That time hitting the ‘Submit’ button did not yield anything other than another “error” page, and I back-spaced to this page again and added this PS. I’ll try again, but will close out after any further error pages.
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:21 am
“Babylon 5 was the best SF show I’ve ever seen. Dr Who and Firefly were also great & BSG certainly has had its share of great episodes & is up there as well. ”
Forgot to add “Farscape”, the Original Trek was ground-breaking and made
the others possible, NextGen was alos great and helped the revival of SF-TV, some of the other spinoffs had their good moments … Honourable mentions to “Crusade’, ‘Buffy’, ‘Futurama’, ‘Blakes7′, ‘Red Dwarf’ & ‘Jeremiah’ …
Where’s the America of Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln & John Brown (of the song ‘John’s Brown’s body - an abolitionist martyr) gone?
— corrected below from above —–
Oh finally, no, Adam, I don’t think scientists would be the first people killed
in the extremely unlikely event of radical Muslims taking over the World.
I think the first people they’d kill would be those who have been oppressing them, bombing and invading their nations and treating their deeply held beliefs with ignorant, arrogant utter contempt. In other words, I think that
the _first_ people they’d kill would be the Neo-Cons plus their military, financial and political backers. Lesbians, gay men, single mothers, and anti
Muslim bigots would probably be next against the wall with scientists a
way down the list hopefully after televangelists!
You know something else? I wouldn’t blame them - at least
for wanting revenge agaunst tehNeo-Cons. As Shakespeares Jewish
character, Shylock, famously said :”Prick us do we not bleed? Wrong us shall we not revenge?”
Plus I think that if you had even 1/4 of an idea of what the average Palestinean or Iraqi human being has been through and is enduring now you wouldn’t either. Consider this - & really, please, do indeed take a
second & really consider:
Iraq is experiencing in civilian casualties AT LEAST a 9-11 every month. Do you think they are any less human than you in how they feel about that? Or any less human like you in what they’d want to do to those responsible for their situation?
For the Palestineans things are even worse. Their own little Jewish-inflicted holocuast has been on-going sporadically but constantly since their
Catastrophe of 1948. Their whole plight began when people in lands far
away who had no understanding of them or their culture or history broke their promises and gave their land away to alien immigrants. Aliens who’d lived there back in Roman times but been in another continent for the past
two-thousand years. Those who gave away the Palestineans land against the indigenous populations wishes and violating their own promises - the West esp. the UK and US - did this to salve their own consciences after the
Nazi-inflicted Jewish holocaust or Shoah. (Which, incidentally, was modelled on the European Americans treatment of the Native Americans.)
The great irony is they led to the persecution of another group of Semites.
As FYI Palestineans and Arabs are Semitic, making Israel ironically a Semitic anti-Semitic nation.
Israel’s creation at Palestine’s expense (& ultimately everyone elses)
also meant the Nazi’s had suceeded - the Jewish population in Germany was no more with the Shoah’s survivors migrating to Israel instead of returning to their rightful homes, taking back what the Nazi’s had taken away and showing such foul “ethnic cleansing” to fail.
Worst yet, the Nazi spirit of hate and persecution of others converted the
Jews away fromtheir previous tolerance and compassion towards others.
Just look at the rhetoric employed by Jewish extremists and settlers on
their stolen land. Or thecarcatures and demonisatiosn of Muslims as jewswere once vilified.
Moreover, Assuming you were sick enough to want to do so, what better way to wipe out all Jews than assemble them together in a small patch of disputed land surrounded by enemies and feeding those foes anger by continual injustice and repression?
What better way to corrode, diminish, shame and harm the United States of America than have it seen - justifiably at that - as an agent of oppression and evil, attacking innocent impoverished lands that are no
match for it except at a guerrilla war level and fighting a war OF terror against nations invaded for the wrong imperialist reasons?
As I see it then, Israel is the (inadvertant, admittedly) creation of Hitler and Fascisms revenge on the West -and there’s food for thought if you dare think about it.
So please, go on I challenge you! Put your brains in gear actually thinking
about the other side of the story rather than swallowing the Neo-Cons lies and Israeli lobby’s self-serving & ultimately self destructive propaganda for once .. That’s why your inIraq now and why Bushand Rumsfeld aren’t getting out - and that’s your latest Vietnam. When you’re in a hole stop digging and start thinking!
Oh and before I cop the predictable flaming - I am NOT anti-America -just
a straight talking friend telling you what you need to hear. I’d rather the West “won” than the Islamic fanatics and rather America ruled the world than China .. But best of all Government of the globe’s people for
the globes pople with all humans having their inalienable rights respected -not just a few.
Shalom, Salaam, peace.
—–
“The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!”
- Princess Leia, ‘StarWars’ V: ‘Anew Hope’
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:24 am
Oops, by ‘back-spaced’ I really meant ‘back-paged’, like with the ‘previous page arrow’ button.
Ivan.
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:39 am
Yes, I know I need to work on being concise.
Crikey, it still needs editing butdon’t worry I’m not going to this time ..
Hope people read what’ve written, take it as intended - in other words fairly, without offence and as the impassioned debate its meant as - and think about it. Thankyou.
——
“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.”
- Isaac Asimov via the ‘Foundation’ series.
“We cannot consider that the armed invasion and occupation of another country are peaceful or proper means to achieve justice and conformity with international law.â€- President Eisenhower
“.. the very best defense against terrorism would be the example of the world’s strongest nation leading the world in the moral battle against poverty, disease, intolerance, and oppression.â€
- Jim Wallis, head of the ‘Sojourner’s’ Christian Anti-War movement.
“The supreme reality of our time is the vulnerability of our planet.â€
- US President, John F. Kennedy, 1963.
If we are to err, let it be towards the side of compassion and bold hopes rather than their opposites.
(Or in my case saying too much not too little.)
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:02 am
Tim: The development of critical thinking skills ABSOLUTLY REQUIRES that we continually question our assumptions and TEST them against reality. If the ancient Greeks, those consumate logicians, had only developed the technique of prediction of effects and testing against reality, today we’d all be worshipping Athena and speaking greek.
GAry 7
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:42 am
Mungascr - I have never read a more error-prone, distorted, rambling, incoherent comment in my life. You talk about critical thinking skills - where are yours? If you can’t get the basic facts of history right, you are doomed to repeat them.
Specifically: EVERYONE knows “A New Hope” was Star Wars Episode IV. Star Wars V was the Empire Strikes Back.;)
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:20 pm
All art or entertainment is a product of its time, wether deliberately or otherwise. A few years ago we had a comet crash into Jupiter–then came “Deep Impact” and “Armageddon”. In the ’60s there was Star Trek, and it was pretty obvious that the Federation was the West, the Klingons-familiar, expantionist and agressive- was the Soviet Union, and the Romulans-mysterious, paranoid, and hostile to outsiders-represented the Chinese. Now we have BSG. The third series hasn’t aired here in Ireland yet, but the debate about it here on this blog and elsewhere doesn’t surprise me at all. Series Two was a far darker and more serious affair than Series One, and the BA’s thoughts about Series Three in his latest post reflect my own about Series Two. Can’t wait for it to come to these distant European shores!
November 2nd, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Cool, my buddy Tim is a video editor on that show. Glad to hear it get props from the Bad Astronomer!
November 2nd, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Tim said:
>>“I swear, if more people knew how to think, this world would be a far finer place to live.â€
>This statement has quite the “Orwellian†tone to it. Who is to determine what is the proper way to think. If your intent was to imply that it is better to question assumptions and analyze ones reasons and motivations, I believe I would agree with you. But lets be clear there is not only one way to think and because some one doesn’t think and believe the way you do doesn’t make them wrong.
Read that again. Phil said “how to think”, not “what to think”.
calm down said:
>The geneva convention IS vague about POW rights. The biggest issue being what exactly constitutes a POW.
You are correct, the applicability of the Geneva Conventions is sketchy, if going by a literalist tack. That is certainly the legal argument being made by Bush et al. However, the issue for most of us is not whether Iraq is a signator or whether the definition of POW is appropriate as worded. The question is ultimately about humane and ethical treatment of prisoners, whether they are prisoners of war, prisoners of conscience, domestic criminal prisoners, suspected terrorists, or guerrilla fighters in their own homeland. Perhaps you are correct that the Geneva Conventions are getting too much attention. The reason that is so is that they are considered the current best standard of humane treatment of citizens of foreign countries detained through political conflict. Bush et al seem determined to justify acts that many of us consider cruelty.
>As it stands, i disagree strongly with the geneva conventions, for the reasons i just outlined. I think it is a nescesity we provide fair treatment for all combatants because i doubt we will be fighting many people who fulfill all these requirements any time soon. America needs to rise above and create its own legislated rules on the treatment of prisoners, which i think we are making progress towards. but the the rules outlined in the geneva convention are not the way to do it.
Perhaps you are correct, we should not rely on the Geneva Conventions to define the best ethical treatment of prisoners, because it is a legal treaty document that by definition has limitations to the scope of the treaty. Perhaps we do as a country need to devise, debate, and ratify a new document that states our American principles and policy toward humane treatment of prisoners, and scope that policy to cover all the categories I listed and any others I didn’t think of. But that will take time, and in the meantime we have thousands of people detained that we need to do something with. Also, Bush et al seem determined to say that limitations provided by the Geneva Conventions are too severe, and should be more lax. Many of us feel this is not the case, and do not condone the attempts to justify cruelty. You haven’t weighed in directly on that topic, but what you said suggests you do not agree with Bush et al on the limitations of the restrictions, only on the applicability of the Conventions to these cases.
BlueCollarScientist Said:
>>There’s “self-identified†nerds, and there’s nerd by accusation. Most nerds I know didn’t set out to be nerds, they just discovered their interests, and got labeled by others.
>And many nerds-by-accusation label others as “jocks,†or with other names indicating chemical dependency, low intelligence, an excess of social compliance, or etc. The sword cuts both ways, and those whom most people see as socially most successful are not universally respected by others for those supposed accomplishments.
I’m sorry, I’m confused. You stressed the “self-identified†nerds. I’ve found that some people eventually decided to embrace the label because they couldn’t escape it. I do not know many people who set out to be “nerdsâ€. Yes, they set out to be educated, they set out to enjoy reading, they set out to study computers and science and whatever else, but they didn’t set out to be denigrated, abused, ignored, avoided, hassled, or insulted. Especially just for choosing to pay attention in class, do their homework, answer questions from the teacher, and get good grades. Also, the label “nerd†has always been a bit nebulous. It, and geek, have somewhat coalesced around the idea of intellectual interests, but the category when I was in school also encluded other types of misfits who did not excel academically. I’m not sure what to label them, they were even more fringe than the fringe I was.
>>While I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn’t dismiss Confuddled’s comments so easily. Childhood and teenage years are difficult. Fitting in socially is a powerful need.
>That’s one point on which I disagree. It is a powerful need for many, even most, but not for all. We cannot ethically dictate to individuals who have little interest in socializing that they ought to engage in it anyway. Nor can we ethically dictate this to individuals who have the desire to socialize, but lack the ability to do so successfully and have made a decision to express their socialization in various ways that we might judge to be circumscribed or unusual.
I didn’t intend to imply the need was universal. I don’t think I advocated forcing anyone to do anything. What I advocated was parents finding ways to aid their children in pursuing their own interests and desires. Many of those children desire social compatibility, if not conformity. There are ways to promote those interactions in a healthy manner without forcing. My parents were ill-prepared for that in some ways.
>I think the sooner we all stop trying to force others to behave in matters of triviality in the manner we would like them to behave, the better. It will result in a lot more people being happy on this planet.
I definitely agree!
mungascr Said:
>Last ep I caught was the Resurrection ship Part II one, I think, where Apollo was floating in space & didn’t wish rescue and the Pegasus Admiral Caine was killed by the tortured cyclon prisoner. Well, ok the tortured female cyclon. Alright make that the tortured female cyclon who is Balthazars (not-so?) imaginary friend.
That episode had an interesting look at attitude of dehumanization of the enemy, and the consequent dehuminization of the participants. The storage room booze talk was illuminating.
Gary Ansorge Said:
>Tim: The development of critical thinking skills ABSOLUTLY REQUIRES that we continually question our assumptions and TEST them against reality. If the ancient Greeks, those consumate logicians, had only developed the technique of prediction of effects and testing against reality, today we’d all be worshipping Athena and speaking greek.
Actually, the Greeks did develop the technique of testing against reality. The Ionians had an open society, religious diversity, and are known for such wonderful discoveries as the size of the Earth, the spherical shape of the Earth, buoyancy, and the atomic nature of matter (matter is made up of tiny particles – even air). It was the Pythagorean mystics who came into vogue and drove out the rationalists, followed by Plato and his school of philosophy and pure thought over experimentalism.
November 2nd, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Irishman:
Yes, and as my familiarity with the Greek culture was principally Pythagorean and Platonic, I made a mistook,,,but I’m only casually familiar with history. My principal interests are in how things work, just stumbled over the other historical references accidentally while looking for some good science. I always wondered how the Greeks dropped the ball when they were so good at deductive reasoning, etc. Thanks for the continuing education.
Gary 7
November 2nd, 2006 at 8:47 pm
I’m sorry, I’m confused. You stressed the “self-identified†nerds. I’ve found that some people eventually decided to embrace the label because they couldn’t escape it.
I’d agree some decided to embrace the label. I’m not sure if this was because they found they couldn’t escape it, though. Maybe it was because they found it meaningful, or they found in the term a way to politically subvert the values of others? Or maybe some combination of all those reasons? I suspect it is considerably more complex than any single reason.
I did not mean to stress self-identified nerds in any particular way - it just so happens that I know some of them. But I’ll be happy to talk about either population.
I do not know many people who set out to be “nerdsâ€. Yes, they set out to be educated, they set out to enjoy reading, they set out to study computers and science and whatever else, but they didn’t set out to be denigrated, abused, ignored, avoided, hassled, or insulted.
I don’t know anyone who set out to be denigrated, abused, ignored, hassled, or insulted either. (I do know people who have deliberately set out to be avoided.) I can’t imagine why a high school cheerleader would set out to be a cheerleader, given that she’s going to be assumed to be a fluff chick airhead with no individuality and no ability to act without group approval. I can’t imagine why a high school football player would set out to be a football player, given that they will be assumed to be an unintelligent oaf little better than an animal.
Ah, but we were talking about nerds. Right. While I am granting that there are many unhappy high school cheerleaders, many unhappy high school football players, and many unhappy high school nerds, and while I grant that social problems account for much or all of this unhappiness, I think that it is only a patronizing and bigoted “view from above” that allows us to believe that somehow nerds are especially victims of social pressures, that they don’t or can’t have potentially satisfying social lives of their own, etc.
I didn’t intend to imply the need was universal. I don’t think I advocated forcing anyone to do anything.
You are correct, you didn’t. Confuddled seemed to me to be advocating Phil’s forcing his daughter to conform to Confuddled’s expectations of what she should be. Sorry for the ambiguity. Your remarks about parents being prepared to enable, rather than force, their children are very intelligent, and well taken.
November 3rd, 2006 at 10:21 am
BlueCollarScientist Said:
>>I’m sorry, I’m confused. You stressed the “self-identified†nerds. I’ve found that some people eventually decided to embrace the label because they couldn’t escape it.
> I’d agree some decided to embrace the label. I’m not sure if this was because they found they couldn’t escape it, though. Maybe it was because they found it meaningful, or they found in the term a way to politically subvert the values of others? Or maybe some combination of all those reasons? I suspect it is considerably more complex than any single reason.
I don’t consider those reasons mutually exclusive.
>Ah, but we were talking about nerds. Right. While I am granting that there are many unhappy high school cheerleaders, many unhappy high school football players, and many unhappy high school nerds, and while I grant that social problems account for much or all of this unhappiness, I think that it is only a patronizing and bigoted “view from above†that allows us to believe that somehow nerds are especially victims of social pressures, that they don’t or can’t have potentially satisfying social lives of their own, etc.
I don’t think that nerds are unique in being victims of social pressures, or that they can’t have socially sastifying lives. Different people find different things satisfying. The trick is realizing that it is okay to find different things satisfying, to learn to be comfortable with who you are, not what others want you to be.
November 3rd, 2006 at 8:12 pm
Did somebody say pulsars?
November 3rd, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Heh. Perhaps I’m a hybrid.
November 3rd, 2006 at 10:14 pm
You might be a Cylon if…
you see a blonde in a red dress everywhere you look, telling you the future.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:27 am
I quite often see a tall blonde in a red dress telling me that her future is to be with me…but then I usually wake up at that point.
November 4th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
I used to see a blonde in a sexy black dress telling me the future then I got divorced.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
I used to be a tall blonde in a sexy black dress…then I met Blue Bell ice cream.
You guys are funny.
PS. I blame Phil’s article in the last Night Sky magazine for making me work out!
November 5th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
I used to be a fat, hairy old white guy in tie dye,,,
oh, wait, I STILL AM,,,
Gary 7
December 18th, 2006 at 10:50 am
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