Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080229/sc_nm/mars_water_dc

I’m also pretty sure there are more than two rovers on mars. Why build and send 2 when you have the budget to send 10 or more.

The other ‘unknown’ rovers are visiting the real sites of interest, like the banyan trees and the polar regions.

Seems pretty dumb to send the two known rovers to the most devoid areas of interest to make out as if nothing is there!

MGS image (full-size) of one of the new deposits. Credit: NASA/JPL/Malin Space Science Systems
In a previous post, I discussed the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS). It has returned vast amounts of data over the several years it has been orbiting Mars, but …

It’s all great and interesting content to explore, pro & con – and I for sure anticipate the upcoming images from the MRO. If it can image the rover along with the jettisoned heat shield, undeniable evidence should be no problem.

It’s all speculation at this point, but I’ll be bold, beat the rush now and jump on the Martian vegetable and water wagons. Room for plenty.

I bet that Martian water is refreshenly cool, and the shade pleasant from the harsh UV rays!

Respectfully,

Chicago Astronomer Joe
Administrator
http://www.chicagoastronomer.com

Telescope/Observatory Operator
Adler Planetarium & Museum

Oddly enough, the article you link citing Arthur C. Clarke declaring them Banyan trees fails to display the banyan tree images either, despite his declaration:

The image is so striking that there is no need to say anything about it — it’s obviously vegetation to any unbiased eye.

Funny that something so critical to his argument was omitted, no? Sorry, that sword cuts both ways.

I will also point out from Phil’s linked article this quote:

As for those Martian banyan trees, Christensen said the phenomenon probably has its roots in a process similar to the one he and his colleagues have sketched out.

If you look a little closer, Christensen is actually addressing the other features of the black spikes and spiderwebbing. He connects the “banyan trees” in more as a follow on, because of the similarity to the spiderwebbing. Phil, the tone of the article as explaining the banyan trees appears to be coming more from Alan Boyle than from Christensen. Christensen sees similarity and is linking them, but he is primarily addressing the other image features. Perhaps this is Joe’s point?

Oddly enough, the article you link citing Arthur C. Clarke declaring them Banyan trees fails to display the banyan tree images either, despite his declaration:

Funny that something so critical to his argument was omitted, no? Sorry, that sword cuts both ways.

I will also point out from Phil’s linked article this quote:

As for those Martian banyan trees, Christensen said the phenomenon probably has its roots in a process similar to the one he and his colleagues have sketched out.

If you look a little closer, Christensen is actually addressing the other features of the black spikes and spiderwebbing. He connects the “banyan trees” in more as a follow on, because of the similarity to the spiderwebbing. Phil, the tone of the article as explaining the banyan trees appears to be coming more from Alan Boyle than from Christensen. Christensen sees similarity and is linking them, but he is primarily addressing the other image features. Perhaps this is Joe’s point?

Those images are discussed in the new press releases. They’ve been determined with reasonable certainty to not be water, but rather a dry slide process, loose dirt slides similar to avalanches. The dark marks appear to be underlying rock, or perhaps shadow from exposed rock edges by the removal of loose dust. They are in a different geological zone from the new images, and look very different.

>Banyan trees:

I have no idea what Banyan trees are or what they look like from above, so I can’t comment on whether these features resemble banyan trees or not. They do give the appearance of some type of vegetation, but oddly the edges of the region do not remain distinct but blend into the surrounding terrain in the “spiderweb” pattern. It suggests to me there are some features we do not fully understand, but the I’m not convinced it’s “vegetation”. Phil’s linked article about the dark triangular spouts of CO2 and dirt is very interesting, and that article discusses the method for forming the spiderweb patterns. That is congruent with what we know about Martian conditions.

> Of course, more investigations are neccessary, but looks good to me.

I certainly agree more investigations are necessary and we may not know the full story yet.

Ah, the argument from authority. I don’t recall that being the scientific method.

> Just a short time ago, it was folly even to consider liquid water anywhere besides Earth.

We’ve learned a lot in a little amount of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9uJE3eFjg

PS, it’s a great talk if you have 60 minutes. I’ve listened to it more than once. He talks very fast and there’s a ton packed into the hour.

Interesting article, and a good argument against the Banyans. Might be right, but I don’t feel the imagery is debunked…not yet anyway.

But an observation -

None of the embedded links in the MSNBC article specifically denote or display the banyan tree images, which I find quite odd – considering the story is about them. But instead referring to “spidering”, defrosting and geyser/polar jets images as examples of natural geological activity – which no doubt do occur on Mars.

One can clearly see the wind blown ejecta from the polar jet images showing such phenomenon in the MSNBC atricle, but not in the banyan images. There are no polar jets displayed in the banyan tree MSSS link images like the story refers to.

But let’s wait for the highly detailed images from the MRO’s 21″ camera and see what they really are.

Thanks for the link and I’ll post it on my forum. Good fodder for conversation debate.

Chicago Astronomer Joe

“The image is so striking that there is no need to say anything about it — it’s obviously vegetation to any unbiased eye.” – Arthur C. Clarke

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviationspace/dab6d4d03cb84010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

Just a short time ago, it was folly even to consider liquid water anywhere besides Earth.

Raw data flowing water images from MSSS:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M12/M1201516.html

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M08/M0807023.html

Banyan trees:

http://www.marsunearthed.com/SelectedImages/ACClarkeTrees/ACClarkeTrees.htm

Of course, more investigations are neccessary, but looks good to me.

All in good time.

The team also does leave their conclusion open to the possibility of other interpretations. They spell out their reasoning and their tenative conclusion.

Chicago Astronomer Joe, the prior evidence of liquid water flow was not datable. It was geolocially young, but that means within millions of years. This evidence is indicative of changes within the last 7 years. That is news.

The standing water and banyan tree speculations you mention are highly speculative and on very weak evidence, by means of stretched interpretations of difficult to interpret pictures.

http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2006/102/mars-humanoid-skull.htm

That doesn’t even look a skull.
It’s obviously the plush raccoon they sent along to prevent the rover from feeling lonely during the cold, dark Martian night.

Dave Mitsky