The lit cross is a old cherished symbol for the community. It is located on a lower mount with mountains behind it. The picture you have is taken at one angle- upwards towards the North. When coming from the I 10 there is a completely different perspective of this cross. It has towering Santa Rosa mountains behind it.

This may actually be a religious hangup for some, the world “religion” is -a deep investigation of-

[B]Daffy[/B] wrote :

Actually, God sent himself down to die horribly to save his own creation from his own divine wrath. Am I the only one who thinks the Guy must be severely unhinged? Or, as Lewis Black observed, the God of the Bible comes off like a “raging alcoholic.”

Brilliant summation! Well said – & no you sure aren’t. You put it so well I may just have to quote you elsewhere if that’s okay!

The funniest thing about this is most of the folks arguing at this point are doing so simply to argue. The bible states that christians are to respect the laws of their government, and in this day and age, there are a lot of laws to respect. The wattage debate between flourescent and your standard bulbs, the difference between a church and a casino, the lack of proper permits in changing from the wooden to the aluminum cross… these are all just the finer details that, honestly, aren’t going to matter in the long run. Think of it this way: if Christians are 100% correct in their beliefs, we have scant more than a decade before the final judgement settles in and Christ comes to reclaim his territory, (given that modern estimates provide for a Gregorian error of 4-10 years,) and if not, we’re still on the cusp of a scientific breakthrough that will lead us into a “singularity” of human mental evolution that will offset most major religious structures within 25 years, anyway. In defense of the skywatchers, however, the scientific observatories are built to collect light at a sensitivity thousands of times more subtle than anything the human mind could comprehend, so that even the demure light of 39 45-watt bulbs could possibly provide a haze that could complicate observations near the horizon. Not to say that it’s likely, or even remotely probable, but in the realm of fuzzy logic and spooky physics, stranger things have happened. My personal recommendation would have to be talk to the church, ask them to settle for a less-powerful bulb, and if they don’t, rest assured that within the next 30 years or so it’ll be a completely different world.

Since we don’t get that paper down here in Adelaide, South Oz, I doubt I’ll ever know if that gets in unless someone who reads it here lets me know …

Oh well hope it does some good anyway.

In northern continents you’ll have to see that upside down – the “handle” of our “Saucepan” was the original “Sword” of the Hunter (Orion).

The light pollution factor will, of course, vary from place to place. All too many people have never really had a chance to see proper natural “dark” skies – if you haven’t then its worth somehow getting to somewhere far from any cities and far from any lights and looking up, it really, really is. I’ll vouch for that.

Wonder what the odds are of a reply or of them doing the right thing and at least turning the (expletives not inserted but muttered under breath) thing off?!

Now I just _hope_ that was the right link!

*******

Dear Rector at St Margarets

I am an Australian astronomer who has stumbled onto your address via the below link debating your gargantuan illuminated cross via the “Bad Astronomy’ website.

http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2006/12/09/science-versus-religion/

I believe your church is showing a gross lack of consideration for others and is adding to the already considerable light polllution problems affecting a significant and scientifically valuable astronomical observatory.

I wish to add my objections to the many I am sure you will have recieved over this tacky, off-putting and wasteful religious advertisement. I will add that I consider your cross counter-productive as it puts Christianity in a bad light and makes many people – myself for one – less likely to think well of a faith that shows such disregard for its neighbours.

I urge you to please turn off the crosses lights at once and preferably dismantle & remove that cross entirely. Apart from anything else, the glare reflecting off aluminium presents a potential hazard to motorists getting blinded. If you must have such a structure at all then please use a less inconsiderate plain wooden variety which, after all, would be more suited to your faith with its extra verisimilitude and much less of an eyesore for your neighbours.

Yours sincerely :

Steven C. Raine
mungascr@hotmail.com
Adelaide hills, South Australia

The total light does matter though, so that gets back to the news article and the BA’s point, why is the ordinance not being enforced for this church? That is still a legitimate issue.

Sure, every little bit helps, but this cross is really a “little bit”.

General question on permits: does violating one portion of a permit typically void the entire permit? Or does the inspector merely point out the violation and either issue fines or dictate a timetable for corrective action? It seems to me that many folks here are taking the first position, while I think the second is more nearly the case.

This was exactly my point. Instead of a discussion about the light pollution, we have people claiming it is about persecution of Christians, as if no one would care about the light were it not an excuse to attack the Christian religion.

You are just describing the other side of the same coin. Were it not a church, the issue would be about the light ordinance and compliance would be expected.

I don’t think Mt Lindo violates any lighting regulations, though… or if it does, its landmark status protects it. I get the impression most people here just look at it the same way they do Christmas lights, or a fancy neon billboard, or something — just one of Denver’s unique little oddities.

I like Christians…….they’re wacky.

Thanks Phill, I am with you on this one

I’ve thought this through, folks.

Probably far more than it deserved.

It probably wouldn’t have made headlines if it weren’t a cross, because the violators would have either complied with the law or been punished by the mayor, you know, the one who said since this was a cross he didn’t see why it was a problem. If it didn’t make news headlines, it probably wouldn’t have come to the attention of Phil, so in that regard you are factually correct though possibly wrong on the reasons.

> I doubt that Phil would have blogged over a billboard for a casino, if that’s what was violating light pollution laws. I assume that violations of light pollution laws are a fairly regular occurance in the Palomar area…so why does this particular story get attention? Because it’s a cross. Period.

You assume violations of the the light pollution laws are a regular occurrence? And that is the basis of your claim? Why don’t you get some evidence to show that secular businesses violate the ordinances all the time? Then you might have a case for unfair treatment. Until then, the evidence is that the Mt. Palomar area has stringent anti-light pollution laws enforced on everyone.

Palm Desert lighting trespass ordinance, 1997: Lighting on hillside plots of less than a quarter-acre is limited to 8,100 lumens.
Riverside County light pollution ordinance, 1988: Same as Palm Desert; plus any decorative lighting within a 45-mile radius of the Mt. Palomar Observatory is supposed to be turned off between 11 p.m. and sunrise. The cross is within the 45-mile limit.

> Food for thought. One cannot deny that the media has made religion at least a part of this issue.

The Desert Sun certainly has played a role in drawing attention to this issue. However, I don’t think the Desert Sun is playing up the religous controvery angle more than the involved parties themselves. The perpetrators are a church group who are trying to argue a First Amendment protection for their “right” to violate the local ordinances. If the church were not claiming special status because they are a church and it’s a cross, then if the newspaper emphasized it you might have a point. But the supporters are making religion part of their claim to justification, I don’t think you can blame the media for blowing it out of proportion in this case.

Your persecution complex is showing. You might need to get that looked at.

As someone who works as a professional scientist, and has worked at several science museums, let me say that the whole Dark Sky effort deserves all the support it can get. Like many other amateur astronomers that regularly participate in an astronomy club, I have noticed light pollution cut down on what we can show the public through our telescopes. And the research telescopes get hurt even more due to the long exposure times that are necessary for astrophotography. I applaud all of the dark sky laws and hope other areas to get similar laws. We (the astronomy club I belong to) asked the local college that our observatory is a part of to turn down the lights and/or get the kind that direct the lights downward instead of upward. They complied (for the most part) and it made a HUGE difference! We can see a lot more though telescopes now. And since the college is our only major source of light pollution, I can speak from experience that changing or eliminating the cross’ lighting WILL make a huge difference. So the church with the lit-up-cross should obey the law and quit whining.

Phil, I absolutely love your blog! Don’t give up the Good Fight. I am on your side and need to go vote for your blog on this computer (already voted for you on a different computer).

Sincerely,
Astrogirl

Fly over the US at night and look at the lighted areas. Everything east of the Rockies and all of the West Coast are lit up. That only leaves the deserts between the West Coast and the Rockies. And that is where the population is starting to increase. Just as we need to preserve at least some wilderness areas for people to be able to visit, we also need to preserve at least some dark sky.

Can you imagine what it will be like when you cannot show your kids or grandkids or great grandkids what the real night sky looks like? For those of you raised in the cities, do you remember being overwhelmed the first time you saw the actual night sky? Do your kids know you can see the Milky Way and it isn’t just something we know is there through a telescope?

Claiming this is Christian persecution just shows the extent of the propaganda tactic leaders use to keep the flock united. Us against them. Look it up. It’s a propaganda technique and one used quite often at that. Sadly, it is very effective and the comments here demonstrate that.

Why obscure that glory in a photon fog!

I agree, but must add one thing to your thoughts – chuirches ARE a business. They propegate themselves based on economics rather than seeking of information. That is left for scientists, who usually are straining to find, and to stretch what they have, funding to actually learn and understand. Religion, “The Church”, is simply a for-profit scam that persists.
I agree with your thoughts on everything else though – the ideology that “we can do anything because we are a religion” speaks to the hiererchy they see themselves owning.