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	<title>Comments on: More on the Grand Canyon</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27292</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27292</guid>
		<description>Eric Anderson said:
&#62; And if you need a label to realize this book is about religious theories, well, with all due respect, just how dumb can you be? Do you not read the book jacket before buying the book?

It's not a question of the book containing &lt;i&gt;religious&lt;/i&gt; theories, it is that the book contains religious &lt;i&gt;theories&lt;/i&gt;.  In other words, the book claims scientific validity and claims that the alternate views are objectively correct.  This is why it is opposed.  If it were about Jesus coming and blessing the waters of the Colorado, it would be getting less attention because it would clearly be a religious &lt;i&gt;story&lt;/i&gt;, not a religious &lt;i&gt;theory&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric Anderson said:<br />
&gt; And if you need a label to realize this book is about religious theories, well, with all due respect, just how dumb can you be? Do you not read the book jacket before buying the book?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a question of the book containing <i>religious</i> theories, it is that the book contains religious <i>theories</i>.  In other words, the book claims scientific validity and claims that the alternate views are objectively correct.  This is why it is opposed.  If it were about Jesus coming and blessing the waters of the Colorado, it would be getting less attention because it would clearly be a religious <i>story</i>, not a religious <i>theory</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Irishman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27291</link>
		<dc:creator>Irishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27291</guid>
		<description>jrkeller, I already addressed that red herring.  The bookstore is operated under contract for the NPS. NPS has full authorization and approval over all content of the bookstore.  Having a contract company pay the checks does not separate the bookstore from being under the authority and control of the Department of the Interior through the NPS.

To me there are two issues with the book being for sale:
1. Giving the book the imprimateur of being scientifically accurate or an equally valid scientific interpretation.
2. Giving the book the appearance of Government sanction.

Item 1 can be addressed by the category of the bookstore under which it is sold and maybe disclaimers.  If it's sold in the "Inspirational" section right next the the Hopi Indian religious stories, a book of school children stories on their trip to the Grand Canyon, and an art book describing the pretty colors that can be seen, and maybe even a collection of Ansel Adams' work, then I lessen resistance to sale for this reason.  Lot's of things can be "Inspirational" without being science.  This is somewhat more complicated by virtue of the content of the book itself. It argues that it is science and that it is a more valid interpretation than the standard science answer.  That makes it somewhat different in character than art, photos, and children's vacation reports.  The treatment of the Indian stories within that book could make it similar or different - I don't know.  That's why I suggest disclaimers.

Item 2 is trickier in my mind.  I think the problem is confusion over what it means for the NPS to review and approve or reject materials for sale.  Some people feel that by virtue of being sold in a Government run store, it is necessarily being advocated by the Government.  Some feel that if the Government sells [i]any[/i] religious themed material, it must sell [i]any[/i] religious themed material.  It would help if we had a list of the criteria used by the NPS for approval or rejection.  I think it possible we could view books on sale not to be [i]advocated[/i] by the Government merely by virtue of being sold.  I think it possible that some religious themed materials could be sold without granting appearance of advocacy or declaring [i]all[/i] religious materials as fair game.  A fair, neutral government policy would be applying the neutral criteria for any book against religious works equivalently. If they meet the same standard as other works, they are acceptable. So if one criterion is number of sales, another is relation to the Grand Canyon, and a third is scientific or naturalistic connection, then apply that to "Inspirational" books.  One could argue that this book and perhaps the Hopi book have issues with the third criterion, but meet the other two.  One could argue that the "Inspirational" category is most open to alternate views because it is a subjective category, and meaning is found many ways.

The larger issue that is exemplified by the book approval is the pattern of behavior exhibited by the Federal Government.  This pattern of behavior is also being scrutinized for a trend that is counter to the First Amendment.  An isolated book choice is one thing, a pattern of pushing Christian themed decisions, viewpoints, and materials is something else.  There [i]appears[/i] to be a pattern of the latter - not only within the NPS, but accross the Government under direction of the President via Executive Orders and political appointments.  That is ultimately what people are really objecting to here.  The book is just one concrete example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jrkeller, I already addressed that red herring.  The bookstore is operated under contract for the NPS. NPS has full authorization and approval over all content of the bookstore.  Having a contract company pay the checks does not separate the bookstore from being under the authority and control of the Department of the Interior through the NPS.</p>
<p>To me there are two issues with the book being for sale:<br />
1. Giving the book the imprimateur of being scientifically accurate or an equally valid scientific interpretation.<br />
2. Giving the book the appearance of Government sanction.</p>
<p>Item 1 can be addressed by the category of the bookstore under which it is sold and maybe disclaimers.  If it&#8217;s sold in the &#8220;Inspirational&#8221; section right next the the Hopi Indian religious stories, a book of school children stories on their trip to the Grand Canyon, and an art book describing the pretty colors that can be seen, and maybe even a collection of Ansel Adams&#8217; work, then I lessen resistance to sale for this reason.  Lot&#8217;s of things can be &#8220;Inspirational&#8221; without being science.  This is somewhat more complicated by virtue of the content of the book itself. It argues that it is science and that it is a more valid interpretation than the standard science answer.  That makes it somewhat different in character than art, photos, and children&#8217;s vacation reports.  The treatment of the Indian stories within that book could make it similar or different - I don&#8217;t know.  That&#8217;s why I suggest disclaimers.</p>
<p>Item 2 is trickier in my mind.  I think the problem is confusion over what it means for the NPS to review and approve or reject materials for sale.  Some people feel that by virtue of being sold in a Government run store, it is necessarily being advocated by the Government.  Some feel that if the Government sells [i]any[/i] religious themed material, it must sell [i]any[/i] religious themed material.  It would help if we had a list of the criteria used by the NPS for approval or rejection.  I think it possible we could view books on sale not to be [i]advocated[/i] by the Government merely by virtue of being sold.  I think it possible that some religious themed materials could be sold without granting appearance of advocacy or declaring [i]all[/i] religious materials as fair game.  A fair, neutral government policy would be applying the neutral criteria for any book against religious works equivalently. If they meet the same standard as other works, they are acceptable. So if one criterion is number of sales, another is relation to the Grand Canyon, and a third is scientific or naturalistic connection, then apply that to &#8220;Inspirational&#8221; books.  One could argue that this book and perhaps the Hopi book have issues with the third criterion, but meet the other two.  One could argue that the &#8220;Inspirational&#8221; category is most open to alternate views because it is a subjective category, and meaning is found many ways.</p>
<p>The larger issue that is exemplified by the book approval is the pattern of behavior exhibited by the Federal Government.  This pattern of behavior is also being scrutinized for a trend that is counter to the First Amendment.  An isolated book choice is one thing, a pattern of pushing Christian themed decisions, viewpoints, and materials is something else.  There [i]appears[/i] to be a pattern of the latter - not only within the NPS, but accross the Government under direction of the President via Executive Orders and political appointments.  That is ultimately what people are really objecting to here.  The book is just one concrete example.</p>
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		<title>By: G Birch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27290</link>
		<dc:creator>G Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27290</guid>
		<description>I stand corrected... sort of. The concession vendor is under contract to the National Park Service, and The National Park Service is part of the US Department of the Interior.

If that means that the rules of Amendment I if the Bill of Rights do not apply to vendors or contractors of the United States of America, then I stand corrected.

I guess this is all water over the bridge (or through the canyon) so to speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stand corrected&#8230; sort of. The concession vendor is under contract to the National Park Service, and The National Park Service is part of the US Department of the Interior.</p>
<p>If that means that the rules of Amendment I if the Bill of Rights do not apply to vendors or contractors of the United States of America, then I stand corrected.</p>
<p>I guess this is all water over the bridge (or through the canyon) so to speak.</p>
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		<title>By: jrkeller</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27289</link>
		<dc:creator>jrkeller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 20:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27289</guid>
		<description>You all need to research this topic a little bit better.  The bookstore in question in not run by the NPS.  The book store is part of a non-government, non-profit organization.  In other words, it is not part of the US government.  On the other hand, the bookstore is on government property so it must adhere to some standards and you can find them in the guidelines found here,

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=442&#38;projectId=13746&#38;documentID=15714

In chapter 10, which deals which concessions, there is no mention that a religious work can or cannot be sold, only that items for sale must be preapproved by the National Park Service. It does state that they want products "that interpet and foster awareness, understanding and appreciation of the park and its resources."  Those words are of course open to interpetation as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You all need to research this topic a little bit better.  The bookstore in question in not run by the NPS.  The book store is part of a non-government, non-profit organization.  In other words, it is not part of the US government.  On the other hand, the bookstore is on government property so it must adhere to some standards and you can find them in the guidelines found here,</p>
<p><a href="http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=442&amp;projectId=13746&amp;documentID=15714" rel="nofollow">http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=442&amp;projectId=13746&amp;documentID=15714</a></p>
<p>In chapter 10, which deals which concessions, there is no mention that a religious work can or cannot be sold, only that items for sale must be preapproved by the National Park Service. It does state that they want products &#8220;that interpet and foster awareness, understanding and appreciation of the park and its resources.&#8221;  Those words are of course open to interpetation as well.</p>
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		<title>By: G Birch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27288</link>
		<dc:creator>G Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27288</guid>
		<description>Eric, you're still missing the point. The government is not trying to impose Navajo or Hopi beliefs onto its citizens, nor repressing scientific fact because of a native american custom, but there would (and should) be an uproar if it did.

Let me rephrase what you obviously missed before: Nobody is upset that a Christian book is for sale. People here are upset that a Christian book is being used to subvert scientific knowledge in a government controlled agency. I would have no problem with a PRIVATELY OWNED bookstore opening up right next to the National Park store, and selling whatever they want. They could sell a book that says the grand canyon was created in 7 days, or that it was channeled out by Martians.

Please understand, I am not attacking you personally. Just like you, I am simply voicing my opinion, and I am trying to do it without getting too emotional or calling people names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, you&#8217;re still missing the point. The government is not trying to impose Navajo or Hopi beliefs onto its citizens, nor repressing scientific fact because of a native american custom, but there would (and should) be an uproar if it did.</p>
<p>Let me rephrase what you obviously missed before: Nobody is upset that a Christian book is for sale. People here are upset that a Christian book is being used to subvert scientific knowledge in a government controlled agency. I would have no problem with a PRIVATELY OWNED bookstore opening up right next to the National Park store, and selling whatever they want. They could sell a book that says the grand canyon was created in 7 days, or that it was channeled out by Martians.</p>
<p>Please understand, I am not attacking you personally. Just like you, I am simply voicing my opinion, and I am trying to do it without getting too emotional or calling people names.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27287</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27287</guid>
		<description>Oh please, referring to it as native "mythology" doesn't make it any different from a "religion."  Nice try.  And if you need a label to realize this book is about religious theories, well, with all due respect, just how dumb can you be?  Do you not read the book jacket before buying the book?

BTW, I'm not promoting Christianity.  I'm an athiest.  My point was that native American mythology is no different from religion.  Why are you so upset that one book that deals with Christian "mythology" is available for people to buy.  It smacks of intolerance to me.  Yeah, live and let live.  Deal with irony of that statement.  You think humans needed religion as an excuse to kill each other?  We'd have found a way either way.

To close, I dare you to go tell a Navajo, Hopi, or Paiute that their beliefs are nothing but myths and legends.  I'm guessing most would have a rather vocal response for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh please, referring to it as native &#8220;mythology&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make it any different from a &#8220;religion.&#8221;  Nice try.  And if you need a label to realize this book is about religious theories, well, with all due respect, just how dumb can you be?  Do you not read the book jacket before buying the book?</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;m not promoting Christianity.  I&#8217;m an athiest.  My point was that native American mythology is no different from religion.  Why are you so upset that one book that deals with Christian &#8220;mythology&#8221; is available for people to buy.  It smacks of intolerance to me.  Yeah, live and let live.  Deal with irony of that statement.  You think humans needed religion as an excuse to kill each other?  We&#8217;d have found a way either way.</p>
<p>To close, I dare you to go tell a Navajo, Hopi, or Paiute that their beliefs are nothing but myths and legends.  I&#8217;m guessing most would have a rather vocal response for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Monkey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27286</link>
		<dc:creator>Monkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/01/05/more-on-the-grand-canyon/#comment-27286</guid>
		<description>I think it has been said perectly that it should be sold with a disclaimer or some sort - if people realize that the bible is simply fiction, and that a biblical version of geological entities is also fictional, it would do a great service to the intellect of the world. And there is a relevant difference between native mythologies and 'religions' and christianity. I wont go into it for you, you can figure that out yourself. The point is that many serious and intelligent people have spent many people hours (many meaning too many to count) trying to sleuth out the history of this planet and when we ('we' symbolically) understand something and then try to educate people about it it should not be diluted with fables and mysticism. I am NOT for banning books, but ratehr thier proper placement so that when people see them in their respective sections they realize right away that book "a" is a fiction novel, and book "b" is a science text or an 'as we now undestand it based on science' text.

And I find it curiously furiating that someone promotng christianity also poses a "live and let live, folks" end to a post. Seems incongruent with the history of religion, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it has been said perectly that it should be sold with a disclaimer or some sort - if people realize that the bible is simply fiction, and that a biblical version of geological entities is also fictional, it would do a great service to the intellect of the world. And there is a relevant difference between native mythologies and &#8216;religions&#8217; and christianity. I wont go into it for you, you can figure that out yourself. The point is that many serious and intelligent people have spent many people hours (many meaning too many to count) trying to sleuth out the history of this planet and when we (&#8217;we&#8217; symbolically) understand something and then try to educate people about it it should not be diluted with fables and mysticism. I am NOT for banning books, but ratehr thier proper placement so that when people see them in their respective sections they realize right away that book &#8220;a&#8221; is a fiction novel, and book &#8220;b&#8221; is a science text or an &#8216;as we now undestand it based on science&#8217; text.</p>
<p>And I find it curiously furiating that someone promotng christianity also poses a &#8220;live and let live, folks&#8221; end to a post. Seems incongruent with the history of religion, no?</p>
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