Irishman:
Blaming Religion because it is misused by bad people is a bit hypocritical if that’s the only reason to criticize it.
Well the fact that religion makes it so easy to do is certainly reason to criticise it.

The biggie is the viral aspect skeptigirl mentions. It’s amazing how much easier religion becomes to understand when you look at it as a meme complex.

>But even if it were the whole story, it would still be enough to condemn religion outright.

Any tool can be victim of misuse. Isn’t that the argument about science and nuclear weapons? Blaming Religion because it is misused by bad people is a bit hypocritical if that’s the only reason to criticize it.

The “us vs them” is a factor, but also must be included the surety factor, the “I’m right and I’m going to make you right, too.”

Seems to me the religious mindset fosters both of those situations. I don’t think it is the sole cause of either, but I do think it encourages those positions.

But even if it were the whole story, it would still be enough to condemn religion outright.

skeptigirl:
…
It seems to me the first two are likely to occur regardless of religion. Religion facilitates the evil but I wonder if without theism humans might not have just evolved different facilitators for the same actions.
They probably would but I doubt they’d occur to the same degree.

There are also other negative aspects of religion that would simply not happen without religion and religion is also a strong conservative force in society which has throughout history tended to oppose almost every moral advance we have made (end of slavery, democracy, woman’s right, racial equality, gay rights, patients rights, clone’s rights (ongoing), etc) and which would probably oppose giving equal rights to other sentient species (whether they be aliens, uplifted animals or smart computers).

Religious beliefs are a tool used by bad people to manipulate others.

Religious beliefs allow people to define themselves as ‘us’ thereby making it easier to blame and attack ‘them’.

Superstitious and religious beliefs allow individuals and groups of individuals to attack another individual or small group of individuals when a false accusation is made blaming the attacked victim(s).

It seems to me the first two are likely to occur regardless of religion. Religion facilitates the evil but I wonder if without theism humans might not have just evolved different facilitators for the same actions.

The third description might be one of the belief being at fault or of manipulation of the belief by another being the root cause. The individual who was indoctrinated by the church and then strikes out on his/her own would also fit this category.

My point is we should be careful assigning causation when association might be the actual relationship.

And on that same note, maybe those people who do good in the name of their theism would be doing just as much for others without the church as a motivator. We are social animals you know. The evidence indicates behaviors evolved. We have no evidence our behaviors were instilled by gods.

> NOT JUST?!? So, am I to understand that Fundamentalists think killing doctors, nurses, and receptionists at a clinic is not only OK, but ranks up there as a good deed like providing food to underdeveloped countries? Religious convictions or not, that is messed up.

I think you misunderstood. Travis was not trying to justify or validate terrorism and abortion clinic bombings. Rather, he was juxtaposting the supposed benefits of Fundamentalism with the detriments that were being listed.

That’s not to say that some Fundamentalists don’t share the view you list, just that it wasn’t what Travis was saying.

> I’m pretty sure that it didn’t say, “Thou shalt not kill, except for Religious Convictions.”

bestonnet said:
> Also I think the actual statement is actually translated more accurately as “Thou Shalt Not Murder” and not “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. How good the Jews and Christians it applied to were at following it is another matter.

Yes, the Bible follows with plenty of other instructions on when to kill. “Do no suffer a witch* to live.” “If a man rapes a women in town, both should be stoned to death.” Etc. So “Religious Convictions” is actually the one sanctioned justification for killing.

*Some say this is supposed to be translated as “poisoner”.