Comments on: Copernicus needs to join the Boy Scouts http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:21:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Francis Graham http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32257 Francis Graham Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:07:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32257 Hello I have the Boy Scout Popcorn tin illustrated. The geocentric Earth does seem to violate the Boy Scout Motto, "Do a Good Turn Daily." :) Indeed it is German, and it is very likely a diagram lifted from an old book which upheld geocentricity. I suppose the diagram made it on there as part of some graphic artist's whimsy, and certainly did not intend to teach Boy Scouts that geocentricity is true. Other old diagrams from old books are there on the tin too showing obsolete apparatus. Looks like somebody had a bunch of copyright-expired graphics. I wondered where it was from, and if the correspondent who said he would "look into this" can tell me I would be most appreciative. Since it shows Saturn with five moons, it was made between 1698 and 1846, when Neptune was discovered. If the outer orbit is Uranus then it was made between 1781 and 1846, when Neptune was discovered; if the outer circle is the celestial sphere (as one comment suggested) then it was made between 1698 and 1781, when Uranus was discovered. I thought it might be Carl Schopfer's geocentricity textbook, "The Earth Stands Fast" (1854) but I do not have the German copy, only the 1900 English translation. 1854 is after 1846 but not too far, so it could have been before Neptune was widely recognized. I would be very interested in where this diagram originally appeared. This also shows that geocentricity as a theory was alive and well after 1700. Indeed, the Cassinis , although Copernicans, felt compelled by their Catholicism to include geocentricity in their introductory astronomy textbooks throughout the 18th century. By the 19th century, though, it was gone. Bad astronomy dies hard. Francis Graham Hello
I have the Boy Scout Popcorn tin illustrated.
The geocentric Earth does seem to violate the Boy Scout Motto, “Do a Good Turn Daily.” :) Indeed it is German, and it is very likely a diagram lifted from an old book which upheld geocentricity.
I suppose the diagram made it on there as part of some graphic artist’s whimsy, and certainly did not intend to teach Boy Scouts that geocentricity is true. Other old diagrams from old books are there on the tin too showing obsolete apparatus. Looks like somebody had a bunch of copyright-expired graphics.
I wondered where it was from, and if the correspondent who said he would “look into this” can tell me I would be most appreciative. Since it shows Saturn with five moons, it was made between 1698 and 1846, when Neptune was discovered. If the outer orbit is Uranus then it was made between 1781 and 1846, when Neptune was discovered; if the outer circle is the celestial sphere (as one comment suggested) then it was made between 1698 and 1781, when Uranus was discovered.
I thought it might be Carl Schopfer’s geocentricity textbook, “The Earth Stands Fast” (1854) but I do not have the German copy, only the 1900 English translation. 1854 is after 1846 but not too far, so it could have been before Neptune was widely recognized.
I would be very interested in where this diagram originally appeared.
This also shows that geocentricity as a theory was alive and well after 1700. Indeed, the Cassinis , although Copernicans, felt compelled by their Catholicism to include geocentricity in their introductory astronomy textbooks throughout the 18th century. By the 19th century, though, it was gone. Bad astronomy dies hard.

Francis Graham

]]> By: Ed Darrell http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32256 Ed Darrell Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:46:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32256 Gee, I probably was close to atheist through much of my Scout career. There were atheists I knew of as Scouts, and as Scouters. For the religious award, they were steered toward the awards offered for Buddhists, or for Unitarians (religious awards are made by an independent group outside of Scouting, by the way). At boards of review we had extensive discussions about "Duty to God," and I always won them over by saying that while an atheist might argue that there is no god to have a duty to, the clear intention of the line in the oath was to refer to a Scout's duty to be reverent towards the beliefs of others and to all of creation, and the duty a Scout has in all other areas to be a force for moral good, from the simple daily doing of a good turn to the major contribution to the community expected of an Eagle candidate's project. I wish Scouting were so open minded today. And that is why I am a leader now. Somebody has to stay inside the organization and raise the issues. Boy Scouting has suffered greatly from the unnecessary and silly fight over religious and sexual orientation requirements, neither of which has much of anything to do with Scouting. The popcorn tin (I missed that one) is produced by a private company with tentative connections to Scouting, though many councils use the popcorn sales as major fundraisers. Sometimes the tins show Scouts, but these should never be construed as official Scout policy, any more than the pictures on the Girl Scout Cookie box should be construed as anything other than photos of kids having a good time. The one single, greatest common denominator among astronauts is Scouting. 11 of the 12 men who walked on the Moon were former Scouts, at least two of them Eagles (Armstrong, the first, and Schmidt, the last), as is Jim Lovell (Apollo 13). Many of them had their interest in astronomy fired by merit badge work, and they seem to have gotten it mostly right. If you're concerned, why not volunteer to be a merit badge counselor for a local district? Scouting can use people who know what they're doing. If you know astronomy, it's easy, and it probably doesn't take much time. I'd be pleased to put you in touch with your local council. Gee, I probably was close to atheist through much of my Scout career. There were atheists I knew of as Scouts, and as Scouters. For the religious award, they were steered toward the awards offered for Buddhists, or for Unitarians (religious awards are made by an independent group outside of Scouting, by the way). At boards of review we had extensive discussions about “Duty to God,” and I always won them over by saying that while an atheist might argue that there is no god to have a duty to, the clear intention of the line in the oath was to refer to a Scout’s duty to be reverent towards the beliefs of others and to all of creation, and the duty a Scout has in all other areas to be a force for moral good, from the simple daily doing of a good turn to the major contribution to the community expected of an Eagle candidate’s project.

I wish Scouting were so open minded today.

And that is why I am a leader now. Somebody has to stay inside the organization and raise the issues. Boy Scouting has suffered greatly from the unnecessary and silly fight over religious and sexual orientation requirements, neither of which has much of anything to do with Scouting.

The popcorn tin (I missed that one) is produced by a private company with tentative connections to Scouting, though many councils use the popcorn sales as major fundraisers. Sometimes the tins show Scouts, but these should never be construed as official Scout policy, any more than the pictures on the Girl Scout Cookie box should be construed as anything other than photos of kids having a good time.

The one single, greatest common denominator among astronauts is Scouting. 11 of the 12 men who walked on the Moon were former Scouts, at least two of them Eagles (Armstrong, the first, and Schmidt, the last), as is Jim Lovell (Apollo 13). Many of them had their interest in astronomy fired by merit badge work, and they seem to have gotten it mostly right.

If you’re concerned, why not volunteer to be a merit badge counselor for a local district? Scouting can use people who know what they’re doing. If you know astronomy, it’s easy, and it probably doesn’t take much time. I’d be pleased to put you in touch with your local council.

]]> By: Irishman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32230 Irishman Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:36:03 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32230 I'm pleased to see the positive side. I was not an atheist at the time, and did not confront the issue directly. However, I recall having a boy who was an atheist show up for a few meetings. While the adult leadership was polite and did tell us not to make a big deal out of it, I did overhear remarks between themselves to the effect that the boy should just do the religious elements to blend in. And yes, there were some overt religious elements, mainly consisting of prayers at certain times (such as prior to group dinners). I have also attended adult leadership training, and the undercurrent made me uncomfortable. I’m pleased to see the positive side. I was not an atheist at the time, and did not confront the issue directly. However, I recall having a boy who was an atheist show up for a few meetings. While the adult leadership was polite and did tell us not to make a big deal out of it, I did overhear remarks between themselves to the effect that the boy should just do the religious elements to blend in. And yes, there were some overt religious elements, mainly consisting of prayers at certain times (such as prior to group dinners).

I have also attended adult leadership training, and the undercurrent made me uncomfortable.

]]> By: Bart http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32255 Bart Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:50:08 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32255 Me = Eagle Scout with palms and honors. Me = son of a dedicated amature astronomer Me = Disapointed how simple the requirements to achive the astronomy badge (back in 1985 not sure how much the requirements have changed) Me = First scout in my district to have to stand up for the 'belief system' of athiesm, as a requirement in the Scout Law for 'A Scout Is: Trustworthy, ....... Thrifty, Clean and Reverent. Lots of cross examinations later, first declared Athiest Eagle Scout (at least in my district) Me = Eagle Scout with palms and honors.

Me = son of a dedicated amature astronomer

Me = Disapointed how simple the requirements to achive the astronomy badge (back in 1985 not sure how much the requirements have changed)

Me = First scout in my district to have to stand up for the ‘belief system’ of athiesm, as a requirement in the Scout Law for ‘A Scout Is: Trustworthy, ……. Thrifty, Clean and Reverent.
Lots of cross examinations later, first declared Athiest Eagle Scout (at least in my district)

]]> By: Michael http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32231 Michael Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:36:47 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32231 Several years ago I was sitting at a campfire discussing the Atheist issue as it pertains to scouting. The civil rights leader, Rep. John Lewis happened to be at the campfire and he chimed in with this response that I wrote down in my personal journal: “If Dr. King taught us anything it is that we should judge someone by what is inside. Not by the label that is put on him. At this age any boy who has said that he is an atheist has looked deeper into his soul than any of us. I would be proud to have a boy with this level of conscienceness in my troop.” Several years ago I was sitting at a campfire discussing the Atheist issue as it pertains to scouting. The civil rights leader, Rep. John Lewis happened to be at the campfire and he chimed in with this response that I wrote down in my personal journal:
“If Dr. King taught us anything it is that we should judge someone by what is inside. Not by the label that is put on him. At this age any boy who has said that he is an atheist has looked deeper into his soul than any of us. I would be proud to have a boy with this level of conscienceness in my troop.”

]]> By: Irishman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32232 Irishman Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:22:50 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32232 Great, now this is a forum on the Boy Scouts. My perspective as an Eagle Scout and now atheist - overall the program has merits. It strives to foster a sense of community involvement and good citizenship, character development, and training in leadership skills. It does try to instill moral character. But that is the problem that people see as "anti-progressive". The definition chosen for "moral character" is a select one that is based upon a Christian agenda. Yes, the Boy Scouts has a religious element, and that's not because the groups are sponsored by churches, rather the groups are sponsored by churches because the organization has a religious element. Baden Powell expressly intended the organization to have that element. That's why the scout law includes "Reverent" as one of the features, and that's why the Scout Oath reads: "On my honor, I will do my duty to God and my country, to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." Duty to God is listed before country, and there's that "morally straight" comment at the end that depends upon one's definitions. Then there's a special award one can earn for "God and Country". Yes, there are groups sponsoring Boy Scout troops that aren't just Christians. I think I recall hearing about Jewish and Muslim and maybe even Hindu groups. But the interpretations for morality are strongly influenced by the Christian tradition. One reason I am not engaged in the Boy Scout organization leadership is because of their stance toward atheists and gays. As an atheist, they exclude me on principle. Their judgment of gays is also known - they would rather have mothers running Boy Scout troops than allow gay men leaders. This attitude is coming from the Scout leadership and tradition. I don't know how feasible a cultural shift would be for the organization if leaders in the organization began identifying themselves as sympathetic to the issues. I think the organization tradition itself makes that unlikely they would remain in leadership positions. Tolerance is a component of the Scout message, but not inclusivism. They don't teach hatred for gays and atheists, but they view those as immoral conditions and judge them on that basis. So being an atheist is not living up to the Scout Oath and Scout Law, by definition. Being gay is not being "morally straight". While they would certainly allow an atheist boy to join a troop, there would be a certain amount of pressure to change - not necessarily heavy-handed and direct, but definitely present. I think in that respect, a gay boy would have it harder - finding sexual identity in a culture of people rejecting it as immoral. I can understand one of their issues with gay men is the fear of abuse, or the appearance of not preventing abuse. But there are other ways to address those concerns besides exclusionism, and the exclusionism is driven more by their rejection of the "choice" of being gay than fears over child safety. They don't see gay men as role models they want the Scouts to follow. None of which has anything to do with popcorn sales, popcorn can decorations, or astronomy. Great, now this is a forum on the Boy Scouts. My perspective as an Eagle Scout and now atheist - overall the program has merits. It strives to foster a sense of community involvement and good citizenship, character development, and training in leadership skills. It does try to instill moral character. But that is the problem that people see as “anti-progressive”. The definition chosen for “moral character” is a select one that is based upon a Christian agenda. Yes, the Boy Scouts has a religious element, and that’s not because the groups are sponsored by churches, rather the groups are sponsored by churches because the organization has a religious element. Baden Powell expressly intended the organization to have that element. That’s why the scout law includes “Reverent” as one of the features, and that’s why the Scout Oath reads:

“On my honor, I will do my duty to God and my country,
to obey the Scout Law,
to help other people at all times,
to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.”

Duty to God is listed before country, and there’s that “morally straight” comment at the end that depends upon one’s definitions. Then there’s a special award one can earn for “God and Country”.

Yes, there are groups sponsoring Boy Scout troops that aren’t just Christians. I think I recall hearing about Jewish and Muslim and maybe even Hindu groups. But the interpretations for morality are strongly influenced by the Christian tradition.

One reason I am not engaged in the Boy Scout organization leadership is because of their stance toward atheists and gays. As an atheist, they exclude me on principle. Their judgment of gays is also known - they would rather have mothers running Boy Scout troops than allow gay men leaders. This attitude is coming from the Scout leadership and tradition. I don’t know how feasible a cultural shift would be for the organization if leaders in the organization began identifying themselves as sympathetic to the issues. I think the organization tradition itself makes that unlikely they would remain in leadership positions.

Tolerance is a component of the Scout message, but not inclusivism. They don’t teach hatred for gays and atheists, but they view those as immoral conditions and judge them on that basis. So being an atheist is not living up to the Scout Oath and Scout Law, by definition. Being gay is not being “morally straight”. While they would certainly allow an atheist boy to join a troop, there would be a certain amount of pressure to change - not necessarily heavy-handed and direct, but definitely present. I think in that respect, a gay boy would have it harder - finding sexual identity in a culture of people rejecting it as immoral.

I can understand one of their issues with gay men is the fear of abuse, or the appearance of not preventing abuse. But there are other ways to address those concerns besides exclusionism, and the exclusionism is driven more by their rejection of the “choice” of being gay than fears over child safety. They don’t see gay men as role models they want the Scouts to follow.

None of which has anything to do with popcorn sales, popcorn can decorations, or astronomy.

]]> By: Ken http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32233 Ken Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:11:30 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/08/copernicus-needs-to-join-the-boy-scouts/#comment-32233 It should be noted that this product probably wasn't produced by the Boy Scouts - it should also be noted that most Scout Troops raise their own money locally and do not rely on national programs (versus the Girl Scouts and cookies). My guess would be that any number of schools, youth sport teams and other organizations sell the same thing. Speaking as an Eagle Scout (earned more then 25 years ago) - the BSA has shown, if your willing to actually look at their record, to be a fairly middle of the road organization. While it certainly has a strong religous component (mostly due to the fact that many/most troops are sponsered by churches) it was also a leader in environmental education (the Environment merit badge was required for Eagle and one of the harder/time consuming badges). And even if it does have a religous component (something that I think they could modify); that part of the Scout Law requires respect to others also - since joining in the 60's I heard a pretty constant message of tolerance. It should be noted that this product probably wasn’t produced by the Boy Scouts - it should also be noted that most Scout Troops raise their own money locally and do not rely on national programs (versus the Girl Scouts and cookies). My guess would be that any number of schools, youth sport teams and other organizations sell the same thing.

Speaking as an Eagle Scout (earned more then 25 years ago) - the BSA has shown, if your willing to actually look at their record, to be a fairly middle of the road organization. While it certainly has a strong religous component (mostly due to the fact that many/most troops are sponsered by churches) it was also a leader in environmental education (the Environment merit badge was required for Eagle and one of the harder/time consuming badges). And even if it does have a religous component (something that I think they could modify); that part of the Scout Law requires respect to others also - since joining in the 60’s I heard a pretty constant message of tolerance.

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