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	<title>Comments on: Phoenix lights again?!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:45:12 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Biff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-214755</link>
		<dc:creator>Biff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-214755</guid>
		<description>Checking in here again...this topic came up in a conversation recently, and I find myself still agitated by it after all these years.  Still upset to the point of shaking even thinking about it in detail, especially when someone starts in with the &quot;oh come on, the government explained this, it was just flares&quot; nonsense.

I thought I posted in here after my last entry up there, wonder what happened to it?  Oh well.

To tuffguy, are you a nutcase for thinking that things might be unidentified?  No, of course not.  Not in my opinion, anyway.  As far as I&#039;m concerned, and despite the various attempts, I still haven&#039;t heard a convincing explanation for what I saw.  Frankly I doubt the government knows the &quot;truth&quot; on this one either, but if they do, I&#039;m sure you&#039;re right, the odds of us hearing about it are pretty slim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Checking in here again&#8230;this topic came up in a conversation recently, and I find myself still agitated by it after all these years.  Still upset to the point of shaking even thinking about it in detail, especially when someone starts in with the &#8220;oh come on, the government explained this, it was just flares&#8221; nonsense.</p>
<p>I thought I posted in here after my last entry up there, wonder what happened to it?  Oh well.</p>
<p>To tuffguy, are you a nutcase for thinking that things might be unidentified?  No, of course not.  Not in my opinion, anyway.  As far as I&#8217;m concerned, and despite the various attempts, I still haven&#8217;t heard a convincing explanation for what I saw.  Frankly I doubt the government knows the &#8220;truth&#8221; on this one either, but if they do, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re right, the odds of us hearing about it are pretty slim.</p>
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		<title>By: Whats Hot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Slamming the astronomers-should-see-UFOs myth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-201114</link>
		<dc:creator>Whats Hot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Slamming the astronomers-should-see-UFOs myth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-201114</guid>
		<description>[...] readers may remember Tim&#8217;s excellent debunking of the Phoenix Lights as well, which I wrote about on the tenth anniversary of that particular silliness. I think I&#8217;ll keep my eye on him. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] readers may remember Tim&#8217;s excellent debunking of the Phoenix Lights as well, which I wrote about on the tenth anniversary of that particular silliness. I think I&#8217;ll keep my eye on him. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WATTS</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-160647</link>
		<dc:creator>WATTS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-160647</guid>
		<description>how bout this .@#$% the people who are employed to control the minds of the people. Some of us are just not that stupid!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>how bout this .@#$% the people who are employed to control the minds of the people. Some of us are just not that stupid!!!</p>
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		<title>By: WATTS</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-158277</link>
		<dc:creator>WATTS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-158277</guid>
		<description>phoenix lights was a genuine sighting and it really frustrates me that people buy the many excuses the government throws out to try to debunk sightings. If you are that naive to believe that our government is honest and tells us the truth about certain  matters, then i am really sorry to say you were mentored wrong throughout life and cant think for yourselves. ufo sightings and crop formations are a real phenomenon. all you have to do is a little research. A step further i will go, do you really believe the great pyramid was built by  egyptians. do some research on how  much knowledge was needed to know about this planet which at that time, was not possible to build that pyramid. blame the department of education for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>phoenix lights was a genuine sighting and it really frustrates me that people buy the many excuses the government throws out to try to debunk sightings. If you are that naive to believe that our government is honest and tells us the truth about certain  matters, then i am really sorry to say you were mentored wrong throughout life and cant think for yourselves. ufo sightings and crop formations are a real phenomenon. all you have to do is a little research. A step further i will go, do you really believe the great pyramid was built by  egyptians. do some research on how  much knowledge was needed to know about this planet which at that time, was not possible to build that pyramid. blame the department of education for that.</p>
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		<title>By: tuffguy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-157550</link>
		<dc:creator>tuffguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-157550</guid>
		<description>Why is it that almost every response is one that backs up the original author and never questions the conclusions&gt;? Similar to what the pilot above said , &quot;Biff&quot;- am I automatically a nutcase for thinking that they &quot;might be&quot; UFO&#039;s? Speculate or conclude all you want- only the government knows the truth- and they will never tell us if the sightings were really otherworldly ships. What about the people who saw a ship go by thats bigger than anything man has ever made to fly? One mile, two miles long. There is of course the possibility that every one of them &quot;wants to believe&quot; something they didnt see or stretching what they saw. But the various similar accounts of a huge craft going by from different people who aren&#039;t afraid and don&#039;t want to be known as nutcases requires more thought than- &quot;theyre just planes&quot;

To you old farts who think that because you were a pilot that you can prove/disprove any theory- in thousands of years when we&#039;re all gone and humans are visiting other worlds - you&#039;ll never know how just how shortsighted you were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it that almost every response is one that backs up the original author and never questions the conclusions>? Similar to what the pilot above said , &#8220;Biff&#8221;- am I automatically a nutcase for thinking that they &#8220;might be&#8221; UFO&#8217;s? Speculate or conclude all you want- only the government knows the truth- and they will never tell us if the sightings were really otherworldly ships. What about the people who saw a ship go by thats bigger than anything man has ever made to fly? One mile, two miles long. There is of course the possibility that every one of them &#8220;wants to believe&#8221; something they didnt see or stretching what they saw. But the various similar accounts of a huge craft going by from different people who aren&#8217;t afraid and don&#8217;t want to be known as nutcases requires more thought than- &#8220;theyre just planes&#8221;</p>
<p>To you old farts who think that because you were a pilot that you can prove/disprove any theory- in thousands of years when we&#8217;re all gone and humans are visiting other worlds &#8211; you&#8217;ll never know how just how shortsighted you were.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-95406</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-95406</guid>
		<description>Hey biff, I try to keep posted on any news that comes out about the Phoenix lights and read something pretty interesting recently. If you want me to send you the article you can reach me at theskywatcher@live.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey biff, I try to keep posted on any news that comes out about the Phoenix lights and read something pretty interesting recently. If you want me to send you the article you can reach me at <a href="mailto:theskywatcher@live.com">theskywatcher@live.com</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Biff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/comment-page-3/#comment-33397</link>
		<dc:creator>Biff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/03/23/phoenix-lights-again/#comment-33397</guid>
		<description>Thanks for answering, Lt.  May I ask where you were when you saw the formation, and when you saw it?  I saw what I did from the woods just south of Prescott, at about 20:15.  Assuming they were aircraft, that leaves a great many unanswered questions, like who in the hell flies with their landing lights on, in a V formation, hundreds of miles from wherever they were going?  Were they just doing their level best to freak everyone out?  And why hasn&#039;t someone (ok maybe not the USAF, you&#039;ve got a point that unless there is a threat to our airspace, it&#039;s not really their problem)  been able to actually identify them?  The thing got a fair bit of publicity after all.  You&#039;d think that someone responsible or otherwise involved would have fessed up and apologized or something...unless it was a malicious, purposeful hoax.

I&#039;m not disputing any of your points, actually...I don&#039;t fly regularly, but I&#039;ve definitely had some double takes in the air that on second glance turned out to be reflected light, or just another plane, etc.  At any rate, I would really like to be convinced that there&#039;s a prosaic explanation...obviously the whole thing scared the living crap out of me or I wouldn&#039;t still bother thinking about it after all this time.

My perception was that the formation was indeed at a pretty high altitude, but just based on the way planes look and sound from the ground when I know their approximate altitude and airspeed...well, this still looked weird.  I mean, from my experience, to move across the sky like these did, a plane would have to either at a low altitude, or moving incredibly fast.  Like maybe a couple thousand feet up and moving at about 300-400 miles per hour.  Certainly not out of the range of your average jet, but I&#039;d think I would have heard something?  All the other aircraft that I observed that day were clearly audible, even the ones that seemed to be above 20,000 feet.  I was out in the woods, it was very quiet.  So let&#039;s say these were at a much higher altitude...they crossed about half the arc of the sky (before I lost sight) in a matter of about half a minute.  If they were high enough not to be audible, how fast would they have to be moving to do that?  2,000-3,000 mph?  I don&#039;t know.

As to your question about why people who put forth reasonable, earthly explanations for weird looking things in the air get ridiculed for rejecting the possibility of extraterrestrial life, I don&#039;t know...you&#039;re right, what has the one thing got to do with the other?  It&#039;s like I said, though, when it comes to UFOs, people tend to be set in their way of thinking, whichever side of the fence they&#039;re on.  I guess it&#039;s just human nature.  People shouldn&#039;t assume that just because someone looks for prosaic explanations for things that this means the person doesn&#039;t accept the possibility of life elsewhere.

I think the simple explanation should always be sought.  I&#039;ve seen people get themselves all worked up about the &quot;flashing red and green pulsating spaceship hovering in the sky&quot; when it is obvious to me that they&#039;re looking at the star Sirius.  On the other hand, I think this goes both ways.  All I meant before is that it seems that some people are patently unwilling to even entertain the possiblity that some things remain unexplained (for now).  And some people definitely and vociferously reject even the mere possibility that life might exist anywhere but on earth...which I think does deserve ridicule, since it smacks of superstitious elevation of our planet to some unique status in all the universe that, to me, flies in the face of probability and logic.

As far as I&#039;m concerned, 99 out of 100 weird-looking objects in the sky are just something ordinary being perceived in an odd way, or with strange light or atmospheric effects involved.  For me, the vee formation that I saw was still downright weird and unexplained even taking all those things into account.  I didn&#039;t observe anything but a formation of lights...no solid objects, and none of the apparently non-ballistic flight behavior that others have reported, just five lights in a vee, banking very precisely in formation, moving extremely quickly, and not making any sound that I could hear.  If they were just planes, albeit very fast and quiet ones with very bright landing lights, then I guess I have five pilots somewhere in the world to be mad at for scaring me like that.

Anyway, thanks again for your response, and thanks also for your service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for answering, Lt.  May I ask where you were when you saw the formation, and when you saw it?  I saw what I did from the woods just south of Prescott, at about 20:15.  Assuming they were aircraft, that leaves a great many unanswered questions, like who in the hell flies with their landing lights on, in a V formation, hundreds of miles from wherever they were going?  Were they just doing their level best to freak everyone out?  And why hasn&#8217;t someone (ok maybe not the USAF, you&#8217;ve got a point that unless there is a threat to our airspace, it&#8217;s not really their problem)  been able to actually identify them?  The thing got a fair bit of publicity after all.  You&#8217;d think that someone responsible or otherwise involved would have fessed up and apologized or something&#8230;unless it was a malicious, purposeful hoax.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not disputing any of your points, actually&#8230;I don&#8217;t fly regularly, but I&#8217;ve definitely had some double takes in the air that on second glance turned out to be reflected light, or just another plane, etc.  At any rate, I would really like to be convinced that there&#8217;s a prosaic explanation&#8230;obviously the whole thing scared the living crap out of me or I wouldn&#8217;t still bother thinking about it after all this time.</p>
<p>My perception was that the formation was indeed at a pretty high altitude, but just based on the way planes look and sound from the ground when I know their approximate altitude and airspeed&#8230;well, this still looked weird.  I mean, from my experience, to move across the sky like these did, a plane would have to either at a low altitude, or moving incredibly fast.  Like maybe a couple thousand feet up and moving at about 300-400 miles per hour.  Certainly not out of the range of your average jet, but I&#8217;d think I would have heard something?  All the other aircraft that I observed that day were clearly audible, even the ones that seemed to be above 20,000 feet.  I was out in the woods, it was very quiet.  So let&#8217;s say these were at a much higher altitude&#8230;they crossed about half the arc of the sky (before I lost sight) in a matter of about half a minute.  If they were high enough not to be audible, how fast would they have to be moving to do that?  2,000-3,000 mph?  I don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>As to your question about why people who put forth reasonable, earthly explanations for weird looking things in the air get ridiculed for rejecting the possibility of extraterrestrial life, I don&#8217;t know&#8230;you&#8217;re right, what has the one thing got to do with the other?  It&#8217;s like I said, though, when it comes to UFOs, people tend to be set in their way of thinking, whichever side of the fence they&#8217;re on.  I guess it&#8217;s just human nature.  People shouldn&#8217;t assume that just because someone looks for prosaic explanations for things that this means the person doesn&#8217;t accept the possibility of life elsewhere.</p>
<p>I think the simple explanation should always be sought.  I&#8217;ve seen people get themselves all worked up about the &#8220;flashing red and green pulsating spaceship hovering in the sky&#8221; when it is obvious to me that they&#8217;re looking at the star Sirius.  On the other hand, I think this goes both ways.  All I meant before is that it seems that some people are patently unwilling to even entertain the possiblity that some things remain unexplained (for now).  And some people definitely and vociferously reject even the mere possibility that life might exist anywhere but on earth&#8230;which I think does deserve ridicule, since it smacks of superstitious elevation of our planet to some unique status in all the universe that, to me, flies in the face of probability and logic.</p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, 99 out of 100 weird-looking objects in the sky are just something ordinary being perceived in an odd way, or with strange light or atmospheric effects involved.  For me, the vee formation that I saw was still downright weird and unexplained even taking all those things into account.  I didn&#8217;t observe anything but a formation of lights&#8230;no solid objects, and none of the apparently non-ballistic flight behavior that others have reported, just five lights in a vee, banking very precisely in formation, moving extremely quickly, and not making any sound that I could hear.  If they were just planes, albeit very fast and quiet ones with very bright landing lights, then I guess I have five pilots somewhere in the world to be mad at for scaring me like that.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks again for your response, and thanks also for your service.</p>
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