In the UK, some schools are dropping teaching about the Holocaust, for fear that it might offend Muslim students.
No, I am not kidding.
This is precisely why we must not waver, must not slow, and must not lower our gaze. The forces of antiscience, antithought, antirationalism… they lurk around every corner, hide in every dark spot. But now they walk around in the daylight, and have so slowly and perniciously built themselves up in our society that we hardly notice. They have successfully boiled a live frog.
But I see them. You should too.
Thanks to PZ for finding this.
April 12th, 2007 at 9:16 am
PZ? I posted a link to it here last week. Sheesh! I gets noes respects.
April 12th, 2007 at 9:41 am
It would help if you referred to a more credible source. Most sane people in the UK don’t trust a word the Daily Mail have to say.
They have a clear agenda, much like your Fox news, to breed contempt, hysteria, and hatred against immigrants, Muslims, black people, liberals, homosexual etc. You know, the usual targets for right wing nutters.
A past similar styled report from them claimed that black people in the UK were offended by the colour of our roads, the colour of the asphalt obviously being black. And how the black community thought this was symbolic : ‘whites walking all over blacks’. Complete and utter rubbish for the benefit of the hysterical, simple minded and gullible.
April 12th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Offend muslim students? But the holocaust isn’t something holy. It’s the killing of innocent people that happened not even a century ago. What would they be offended about? The fact that nazis killed jews and not muslims? That’s ridiculous! It’s history!
April 12th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Is this confirmed by anything other than the Daily Mail? Their credibility is right down there with FOX.
Oops. Someone beat me to it.
April 12th, 2007 at 10:38 am
From reading the article, the sensitivity is that Muslims might express anti-Jewish statements or express Holocaust denial claims. Seems to me that’s the point of a history class, to face those claims and tell it like it happened.
April 12th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Irishman: I think you’re right on. When I heard this story from another source, it was about Holocaust deniers who just happened to be Muslim. Holocaust deniers need a swift kick in the butt no matter what their religion (or lack thereof) is!
April 12th, 2007 at 10:51 am
The only thing i connection at all that i can think of between Muslims and the holocaust is that the Nazis stole the idea of making the Jews wear the yellow star of David on their clothes from Muslims who’d been making the Jews wear 2 of since atleast as far back as the 8th century.
I had to do some research to make sure i was remembering correctly and found this page that talks more about it.
http://www.jewishmag.com/103mag/yellowbadge/yellowbadge.htm
April 12th, 2007 at 10:56 am
From fairly reputable newsource The Times - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1600686.ece
April 12th, 2007 at 11:27 am
and here is the study the stories are based on: http://www.dfes.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RW100.pdf
April 12th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Bion: please cite a reference that proves Fox News is trying to incite hate.
I’m not a Fox News fan, but that borders on extraordinary claim, and in these parts you need extraordinary evidence for that. Most people just think FNC has a conservative bias and leave it at that.
And an ideological web page written by people on the other side of the political spectrum is not a valid cite.
Are you sure the blacks and the roads story wasn’t a joke? World Net Daily does that a lot: posts a completely outlandish made up story. A Google search revealed nothing.
Oh, and the Holocaust story is true, so deal with it.
April 12th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Geez, we went thought this last week and I posted a BBC link.
Why is everyone trying to find a rational reason for this?
I’m sorry, but did the world become rational overnight or something to cause this expectation?
The Muslims in question are fanatics and victims of their own prejudices. The school officials are fearful of an unknown and *their* own prejudices.
There’s no rhyme or reason to anything most people do beyond whatever their particular mental cocktail of toxic memes tells them to do.
To be honest, I don’t even consider most people to be completely sentient.
Sorry to be a downer, but that’s the way things are. Would the world be the mess it is if things were otherwise?
April 12th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Michelle said, “It’s history!”
Yeah? So? When did that matter to most people?
If you ever hope to begin to understand news like this, you have to abandon reason.
You have to treat the nightly news like an FBI profiler treats a serial killer. For every demented and horrific act in this world, there is some broken, twisted POV where it all lines up and makes perfect sense.
It’s like those random dot stereograms, but you need to have bad chemicals in your head to see the picture.
Or understand the bad chemicals enough to temporarily emulate the mindset.
April 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
This is the kind of crap we try to stop. I say it’s about time we stand and fight.
April 12th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
QD: Does that mean we can’t be outraged at the idea of a SCHOOL removing pieces of history to not offend people? Who said facts had to be pretty?
April 12th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Let’s be very clear about this, the Holocaust is not and has never been a compulsory subject in history in British schools. I didn’t learn about it OR the Crusades and that was longer ago than I want to admit to.
So, what this report says is that there have been cases where schools have taken the easy option and not picked subjects for history (not JUST the Holocaust) that they thought might cause problems in their community. They picked other subjects, safer but no less valid. The authors of the report are suggesting a little more backbone, but honestly I can see how teachers have enough problems without going looking for more.
Bion makes a good point about the Mail. They carefully picked just the bits of the report that could fuel hatred of Muslims.
So what EXACTLY has this got to do with the forces of Antiscience? Please, someone explain because it seems to me that the answer is NOTHING.
April 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Michelle, you can be outraged at whatever you like but it might be best to stick with things that have actually happened.
April 12th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Well, the original Daily Heil article is wrong - the report says “a history department in a northern city recently avoided selecting the Holocaust as a topic for GCSE coursework for fear of confronting anti-Semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial among some Muslim pupils.”. That’s one school, not some, and it isn’t dropping teaching it, it’s avoiding setting it (where it is optional) as a coursework topic.
Never believe the press - go to the source.
The report has a number of interesting things to say, including: “[R]esearch into methods investigated by Short and Reed (2004) suggest that, in the case of the Holocaust, it is unacceptable for a teacher to adopt the role of the neutral chair. It may indicate that the teacher is indifferent to the event being discussed or could result in revisionist, anti-Semitic Holocaust denial being given an equal platform alongside mainstream historical debate”. Something that is undoubtably also true of certain science ‘controversies’.
April 12th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
How about the BBC News website
Is that reputable enough?
April 12th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Do I understand this right? “Holocaust” is an OPTIONAL topic in Britain (and maybe somewhere else)? It is not required to be taught?
I can’t belief it! If this is true I understand why “history repeats itself time after time” (Ozzy Osbourne), because noone learns the lessons of it!
And you must stand up and speak up if there is anyone who denies such things (like the “Holocaust”). It doesn’t matter if he is called Ahmadinedschad or if it is a muslime or a christ, a german or a british guy, it doesn’t matter! Tell him!
You will not avoid the problem by leaving it out, it will just become bigger and bigger!
April 12th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
i see what you did there.
April 12th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
also i wanted to note, this is especailly troubling that the UK is not teaching about this, since it was the UK’s job post WW1 to make sure Germany didn’t rebuild it’s military.
Granted the treaty signed at WW1 was generally done with the intent to neuter and humiliate Germany in the first place.
Nonexistant LORD! this is important stuff to teach in school.
April 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Well, according to that BBC link it is now compulsory at KS3 (11-14 years old). I don’t see any point in forcing it on younger children who wouldn’t understand the important political lessons and then history isn’t compulsory at KS4 (but looking now I see that religious education IS? … F* that! home schooling is looking better all the time!)
Anyway. Totally pointless fuss over nothing. The only anti-science type thing about this is the way that BA just posted a Daily Mail immigrant bash without doing any background research.
April 12th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
I wrote about this a week ago and quickly realized that perhaps I did not exercise adequate–shall we say?–skepticism regarding the report, and several commenters took me to task. Although I continue to believe that even a hint of pandering to religous bigotry by not teaching the Holocaust is a reason for concern, I now suspect that perhaps this report was the result of a press release by someone or some group with an axe to grind. Caveat emptor.
April 12th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Yes, teaching the Holocaust is compulsory in English schools (it’s one of the four major events actually named on the National Curriculum website, the others being the two World Wars and the Cold War), but it is not compulsory for it to be taken as a piece of GCSE coursework (nor is it compulsory to take a History GCSE - for those out their not acquainted with the English system, GCSEs are the exams taken at 16 and studied between 14 and 16). No state school can choose not to teach the Holocaust, no matter what the rabid right-wing press say.
Also, ‘Religious Education’ is indeed required to be taught (although not as a full subject, there are no national targets for instance). However, as the UK government site puts it: “In religious education (RE) pupils learn about the main religions in the country, particularly Christianity.” In other words, this is about learning about the beliefs of all the major religions, not indoctrination in the beliefs of a religion. Of course, there are those who decide their child is better off not being exposed to a plurality of beliefs, so parents are free to withdraw their children from these lessons.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Phil, I agree with some of the other comments here that you seem to have parroted a newspaper that has a particular agenda in this.
Of course the Holocaust should be taught. I certainly learnt about the Holocaust in an English school (the Scottish education system may be different here) as part of what was called ‘Modern World History’. In that we also learnt about the end of the British Empire (including all the terrible things that were done), Gandhi and independence in India, Native Americans, the Great Depression (with particular reference to the US), both World Wars, the rise of Nazism in Germany, and the Cold War (USSR, the US, Cuba etc). There are plenty of other aspects of history that we didn’t learn but there is nowhere near enough time to go into much depth on the many events, nations and cultures of the World (and learn about primary and secondary sources/propaganda) with only a couple of hours a week. Ultimately, learning about history (or anything else for that matter) shouldn’t end when you finish school and I don’t think that one school (out of ~3500 - I think) choosing not to set this during GCSE as representative of the whole of England and Wales.
I would just like to add to the description of ‘Religious Education’ (RE) in English and Welsh schools (again, I can’t speak for Scotland here). Having been through it in the last decade or so, I can say that I learnt about five of the world’s main religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Buddhism). I can understand why religion is not taught in US public schools and I can also see the point of learning about religions (as long as you are taught about more than just one). It isn’t necessarily about becoming religious but I think it is interesting and useful to learn about the different beliefs that others around me subscribe to. However, I do know that in some (many?) religious schools, RE can become dominated by one religion and I certainly don’t think that is good.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:21 am
I think this needs to be put in perspective. I think we run the risk of elevating the Holocaust - or the Jewish-Nazi - far too much above other current, past and ongoing genocides reflecting a bias that diminishes the lives of non-Jewish victims of various and numerous persecutions.
Yes, the Shoah as the Jews called it, happened and was bloody terrible killing around 5-6 million people - not all of whoem were Jews but also many communists, homosexuals, disabled, German opponents of Hitler, Russians, Slavs & others.
Then again, at the roughly same time, Stalin killed about 40 million Russians and Mao TseTung killed many, _many_ more Chinese again. (Exact figures are hard to come by.) Yet these even more appalling atrocities are usually overlooked in favour of the smaller, admittedly inexcusably shameful event affecting the richer, more Westernised minority. As the Jews themselve skeep saying “What makes them /us so special?
Then too, the Russians and Chinese don’t use the past as an sad and illogical excuse for committing present inexcusable, inhumanities as the Israelis do. It is WELL worth noting that the Holocaust or Shoah inflicted on the European Jewish community by the Nazi’s lasted just 4 or so years - while the slower, equally appalling atrocity of the Nakbeh (Catastrophe)committed by the Israeli’s against the Palestineans - one of many modern Holocausts * - has lasted since 1948 -over fifty years!
“Funny” thing about that “Never again” line the jewish lobby keeps saying -they obviously forget to add “Never again unless its us doing the killing!”
Given the Palestineans, Lebanese and other Arab neighbours they keep attacking and oppressing are also Semitic peoples, its an ironic & little realised fact that Israel is arguably the most anti-Semitic nation on the planet!
Worst of all - & least of all recognised - are the very worst “Holocausts” - Those that have been most brutally successful - inflicted against the indigneous, pre-invasion populations of South, Central & North America, Australia & NZ / Aotearoa.
Look at your own history & what has happened to the Native American nations as a result of Colonialism and the foundation of “Western” empires folks. As the (self-described)Good Book notes : There’s a beam in your own eye not just a speck in your neighbours needing your attention!
So, yeah, teach the Shoah - the Jewish holocaust by all means - but lets put it in its proper place & context and NOT exaggerate it into the worst human atrocity in history either numercially, by percentage, by cultural damage or pyschologically. Becauseitsimply ain’t. Infact its doubtfulif itseven inthetop ten. The worst of all are European Imperialisms genocides against Native Populations - then Mao’s against his own Chinese, possibly Genghis Khan’s against the victims of his conquests,or Stalins, etc .. The Shoah, sadly, is a long way down the list - which doens’t mean it didn’t happen or wasn’t appalling just that a bit more persepective and less over-emphasis is badly needed!
Hard as it is for people to recognise it - compared to many cultures! (Eg. the Caribbean islanders who first greeted Columbus, the Australian aboriginals who rescued the last survivor of Burke and Wills, the Chechens, Darfuris & Palestineans suffering today) the Ashkenazi (Western European) Jews haven’t endured anywhere near as badly. After all, they’re still here & they are no longer under any real threat.
(& No Isreal does NOT face extermination at the hands of Iran &its otherMusklim neighnbour states. Isreal has nukes folks plus the strongest, best funded, most ruthless and cruel military in the region. Israel _IS_ the threat to them NOTvice-versa … who invaded whoem most recently eh?)
Moreover, lets not deny another unpalatable truth - that the Jewish-Isreali lobby has been getting away, quite literally, with murder and repression because of its tragic past incl. the Shoah and pogroms ever since.
Finally, let me state quite clearly that : NOBODY has the right to Kill or persecute ANYBODY else. Anti-Semitism in both anti-Arab and anti-Jewish variants is ugly, evil and not to be accepted. Nor is racism - which Judaism with its religio-tribal basis comes perilously close to being a form of. Israel should not be destroyed and does have the right to defend itself and live in peace with its neighbours -just like Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and all other countries do too.
Shalom, Salam, Peace … if only there would be!
PS. Everyone feel free to forward this on & quote it elsewhere.
——
* To name a few other ‘Holocausts’ - sadly NOT an exhaustive list by any means! :
1) The Holocuast of the Tibetans committed by the Chinese,
The Holocaust of the Kosovars, Bosnian Muslims & Croats by the Serbians.
2) The Holocaust of the Darfuri’s by the Sudanese
3) The Holocaust of theChechens by the Russains
4)The Holocuast of the Acehnese and West Papuans by the Indonesians
5) The Holocuast of the Western Saharan peoples’ by the Morroccans
6) The Holocaust of the Armenians by the Ottoman empire
7) The Holocaust of the Xinjiang people (Chinse mmuslim minority)by the Han Chinese
9) The Holocuast of the Karen peopel by theBurmese (or Myanmarese as the military Junta call the nation now!)
10) The Holocaust of the Iraqi’s by their own hands and by the US.
Haven’t heard of or thought about many of those? I suggest you research and look a bit beyond the self-serving “Poor rich Jews always being piciked on” media focus!) Many are happening as we speak (or write!) & speaking personally its those ones where we can act against - not ones past weher ewe can only commemorate thedead and regret what’s lost - are in most urgent need of our focus!
April 13th, 2007 at 2:00 am
I would just like to second all of those who have suggested the daily mail is not an unbiased source.
Bion is absolutely right to say that they “breed contempt, hysteria, and hatred against immigrants, Muslims, black people, liberals, homosexual etc.”
I would also like to point out that, ironically, they are also anti-science. For example they ran an ad campaign a couple of years back based on getting free horoscope paraphernalia, and the pages are full of credulous articles on homotherapy not to mention Princess Diana conspiracy theories
In fact this article is a perfect example of bad science, picking and choosing the facts to support your agenda, I admit that I haven’t had time to read the original report but I note that the Times article does not specifically mention muslims.
They targeted muslims using the same tactics when they claimed that piggy banks were now ‘banned’ to avoid offending muslims. What had actually happened was that *one* branch of *one* bank had chosen not to using posters which featured a piggy bank.
Phil, please don’t link to them (or the UK express) again unless it is to lampoon their outrageously anti-science stance.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:34 am
In regards to Rob’s comments about teaching RE in the UK: I live in England and had plenty of religious lessons and assemblies based on Christianity. I’m pretty sure that this is typical of many schools in Britain. When we had RE later on, it was still about Christianity, although this did seem to be taught in a more historical fashion. If we were supposed to learn about other religions, we never got around to it.
Thankfully though, this has not normally stopped good science or history in classes (with the possible exception of the Vardy schools (Vardy is a creationist)), but those morons at “Truth In Science” are trying to do something about that.
April 13th, 2007 at 3:16 am
Thanks, StevoR, you said exactly what I was going to say!
About your list of holocausts, however, one semantic nitpick: the term “holocaust” refers to systematic killing of an ethnic group, not an otherwise bloody conflict so most of those are not “real” holocausts in the true sense of the word (it should also noted that the term is politically very loaded word).
But that was of course not your point.
No one should not forget or deny any of those crimes.
PS. The fact that the Jewish holocaust was not the worst crime the Nazis committed tells something about the WW2 (their biggest crime was the war of aggression which left tens of millions dead, far more than in the concentration camps).
April 13th, 2007 at 4:56 am
Oh, not you too!
About all I seem to be doing today is making the rounds of usually sceptical blogs pointing out that the entirety of this story is based on 2 or 3 out-of-context quotes from page 15 of a 48 page report about how to teach controversial historical subjects better.
And also pointing out that there are many different history curricula available to schools in the UK (although I understand that this is changing), most of which don’t even cover the period in question. I don’t know what history teaching is like in the US, but over here we tend to take a narrow, deep focus on a particular subject area (in my case it was British Political History 1812-1918) rather than trying to cover everything from pre-Roman Britian to the Cold War.
I should also point out that there is absolutely no suggestion of Holocaust Denial here.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:58 am
Anyone interesting in what this report actually does say can find it here.
April 13th, 2007 at 5:51 am
Oh, and I notice that the Mail version of this story completely omits the fact that the only actual complaint received from parents about history teaching came from Christians.
April 13th, 2007 at 7:17 am
So I guess they’re implying that Muslims would be offended because they’re secretly just a bunch of NAZIS?
Oh, I’m sure my Muslim friends will just LOVE that,,,
GAry 7
April 13th, 2007 at 8:14 am
I don’t have much experience with the Daily Mail. But the claims from others on this blog saying that the Mail should be taken with a grain of salt most definitely ring true. The article seems dubious on its face, but the nail in the coffin for me is the “poll” next to the article asking, “Will Life on Mars encourage homophobic bullying in schools? ” WTH? Seriously?
April 13th, 2007 at 11:19 am
OK, so it appears the Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of Fox “news”: that is, hugely biased and generally fact-free. But this was also reported in other outlets, as other commenters have noted. I will read those when I can; I’m a bit busy right now.
April 13th, 2007 at 11:58 am
“Life on Mars” was a recent drama in the UK, set in the 70s and including attitudes of the time. Some teachers recently claimed that the use of homophobic insults in the programme would encourage their use in the classroom. It’s not got anything to do with Hoagland!
April 13th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
In addition to antiscience in general, it’s important to fight inaccuracies and distortions done deliberately in Hollywood and on TV to make a scene more exciting. I was taking a first aid / CPR course yesterday, and learned that a lot of people with serious injuries (inc. spinal injuries) are pulled from cars by bystanders, compounding their injuries.
Why do bystanders pull the injured from auto accidents? Because they’ve learned from TV and movies that CARS EXPLODE in accidents–when, in fact, they don’t; it’s a Hollywood fiction. They pack a car full of explosives and set them off during or right after a collision.
I’d known that cars don’t explode like that for a long time, but to find that that fiction is causing people to make things worse in life-threatening situations really brought it home to me how wrong it is.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
If you were taught about the Holocaust at school and actually learned anything useful about how a democracy turns into a police state and you live in the US then I trust you’re already on top of this story http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/13/bush_administration_.html
April 13th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Leon,
That reminds me of an episode of the old TV series, “Emergency!” A guy brings his buddy into the emergency room, who’s suffering from grinding chest pain. The doctor asks what happened, and the patient’s friend says (proudly), “He started having a heart attack. So I did what I saw on TV, an’ hit ‘im in the chest!”
The doctor then says back, “He’s not having a heart attack; it appears to be indigestion. But I think you may have broken his rib cage!”
April 14th, 2007 at 2:50 am
The do-gooders of the world strike again. Have’nt they done enough damage to our lives allready???
April 14th, 2007 at 2:50 am
The do-gooders of the world strike again. Have’nt they done enough damage to our lives allready???
April 15th, 2007 at 12:41 am
>>> OK, so it appears the Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of Fox “newsâ€
That’s a sad statement coming from a supposed defender of scientific truth and skeptic. You’ve let your guard down, Phil.
Look, I’m no lover of the FNC, but this idea that Fox News is some sort of major propaganda mill is just not supported by any empirical evidence. Thye have a bis, but thei bias is no worse than any other news outlet.
http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.pdf
The “Faux News” meme is a zero level of intellect along with the moon hoax and other paragons of anti-reality.
A defense of Fox by Susan Estritch- hardly a right winger.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0621/p09s02-coop.html
April 16th, 2007 at 5:11 am
StevoR (why has no one else taken him to task for the blatant antismeitism?) - Why don’t you really tell us what an incoht you think about Jews? What an incoherent screed! Since this is a fact driven site, please back up your comments with facts. For instance (typos in original)
1. “overlooked in favour of the smaller, admittedly inexcusably shameful event affecting the richer, more Westernised minority.” Please provide the facts showing that, for example, Polish Jews during WWII living in shetals were “richer”???
2. “Given the Palestineans, Lebanese and other Arab neighbours they keep attacking and oppressing are also Semitic peoples, its an ironic & little realised fact that Israel is arguably the most anti-Semitic nation on the planet!”
Please provide facts here - Israel was attacked across its border from Lebanon and retaliated (its soldiers are still held captive - where is the Red Cross or Amnesty International and why aren’t they holding vigils? Where is the outrage at the UN?). Most “anti-Semitic” - based on what statistics? The fact the Arabs are freer in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East? The fact that Arab women get to vote, go to school and drive cars? That qualifies as most “anti-Semitic” - open your eyes to the facts.
3. “Moreover, lets not deny another unpalatable truth - that the Jewish-Isreali lobby has been getting away, quite literally, with murder and repression because of its tragic past incl. the Shoah and pogroms ever since.”
Wow - Walt and Mearsheimer all over again. Pretty soon you’ll be telling us that Jimmy Carter was the best thing since Lincoln (my screed). Poll after poll of the American people show overwhelming support for Israel. It is not the “Jewish” lobby it’s the American people. Israel is a bastion of democracy in the ME. Try being a gay activist in Syria and see how long you live. Try practicing - openly - Christianity in Saudi Arabia (or Gaza for that matter -http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848535.html). Americans support Israel because, despite it faults like all other countries, it is a liberal democracy in a sea of totalitarian dictators - Americans in general tend not to support hereditary rule.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:43 am
I did want to reply to this.
SteveoR said:
> (& No Isreal does NOT face extermination at the hands of Iran &its otherMusklim neighnbour states. Isreal has nukes folks plus the strongest, best funded, most ruthless and cruel military in the region. Israel _IS_ the threat to them NOTvice-versa … who invaded whoem most recently eh?)
Who invaded whom? Let’s see, armed Lebanese crossed into Israel and captured soldiers, taking them hostage. Who invaded whom?
Israel is surrounded by countries full of people who despise its very existence. Of course it has a large, well-trained, well-funded, strong military. It’s called self-preservation.
I will grant there were a number of mass-slaughters and execution programs that by numbers outweigh what happened to the Jews in World War II. I will grant that there could be more attention payed to the other victims of Hitler and the NAZI’s. Your tone, though, comes off far more concerned with bashing Jews and Israel than with raising awareness of other issues.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Captain Obvious:
That’s an interesting article and I need to read it some more to give it a fair treatment, but one thing pops out at me:
On pg. 2,
“These findings refer strictly to the news stories of the outlets. That is, we omitted editorials, book reviews, and letters to the editor from our sample.”
That’s omitting a lot. I understand why they did this, but that’s still a lot to leave out. I’ve known people from other countries who come here and contrast the news here with what they find at home: While the facts in the news are generally ok, the storyline and “conclusions” reached seem to be subtly spun. The editorials and other opinion-carrying parts of the newspapers weigh very heavily. I know this isn’t refuting the study you cite–I’m just saying that it’s hard to take its conclusions as substantive when it ignores the elite opinion-makers that take up so much airtime and print space.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Re. the original topic:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6563429.stm
Fourth paragraph of that article:
In fact the government has reaffirmed that in England, teaching children about the Holocaust is compulsory, and it is not banned elsewhere in the UK.
April 18th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Bolo, the intent of the article was not to measure the opinions of the editorial pages or letter writers. The intent was to try to detect slant/bias expressed in the news articles themselves. They omitted the things that were not trying to be unbiased news because they [i]would[/i] show bias, but bias is okay in opinions and editorials and letters. They’re trying to detect where the authors’ and editors’ personal opinions filter into the “unbiased” news.
April 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am
Well ‘Visiting’ since you asked :
“StevoR (why has no one else taken him to task for the blatant antismeitism?)”
SCR (StevoR) : Maybe because you missed the fact that I stated anti-Semtism is ugly, wrong, evil and unacceptable -as is racism and people killing or persecuting others generally. Criticism of Israel & its policies - which lets not forget include torture, political assasinations, deliberate de-development, illegal settlements, institutionalised racism & apartheid, ad nauseum - isn’t anti-Semitic, just reasonable,indeed an ethical obligation, given their actions!
V : “- Why don’t you really tell us what an incoht you think about Jews?”
SCR : Que? (That’s “what” in Spanish BTW.) Maybe I would if I understood what the heck you were asking … But there’s an essay or two in that rather than just a single post!
V : “What an incoherent screed! Since this is a fact driven site, please back up your comments with facts. For instance (typos in original)
1. “overlooked in favour of the smaller, admittedly inexcusably shameful event affecting the richer, more Westernised minority.†Please provide the facts showing that, for example, Polish Jews during WWII living in shetals were “richerâ€???”
SCR : Umm .. Little bit of context here mate, I was comparing Ashkenazi Jews with Tibetans, Chechens, Darfuri’s, West Papuans and others not necessarily their immediate Euriopean neighbours. However, its common knowledge that in many, if not all cases, the Ashkenazi communities were at least marginally better off than their Slavic neighbours. There were many reasons for this incl. Jewish communities sticking together and having a higher percentage of educated people and hence more available medical expertise .. BTW. I’ve gotten this knowlege from reading history texts about the time incl. contemporaryaccounts & from the Jewish side too. No stats but it is a generally accepted fact.
V: “2. “Given the Palestineans, Lebanese and other Arab neighbours they keep attacking and oppressing are also Semitic peoples, its an ironic & little realised fact that Israel is arguably the most anti-Semitic nation on the planet!†Please provide facts here - Israel was attacked across its border from Lebanon and retaliated … Most “anti-Semitic†- based on what statistics? That qualifies as most “anti-Semitic†- open your eyes to the facts.”
Israel sparked the whole affair by shelling a beach in Gaza murdering an innocent family - Hizbollah responded with raids and kidnapping an Israeli soldier. Israel responded to that by launching a massively disproportionate aerial bombardment and invasion of another nation that had nothing to do with Hizbollah’s actions and no control over the group.Lebanonas anation as opposed to the guerilla group Hezbollah was, in fact, defenceless havingf onlyjustpulleditself togetherafter thelastIsreali invasionof their land. Isreal wentonto blastand invade Lebanon for weeks killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent people and making at least double that number homeless. Even accepting Isreal had _some_ basis for action, its response was unquestionably completely disproportionate, misdirected and a massive unjustified overreaction. It also made it worse off rather than better and failed to acheive its mission. Just think if only it hadn’t shelled that Gazan beach in the first place! Sigh.
Fact is Palestineans and Israelis are closely related peoples - all of “Semitic” stock - if that outdated notion of ethnicity counts for anything. Isreal is a nation that discrimiantes strongly against their Semtic Palestinean population. If you dispute this try reading a bit from the other side of the story - I suggest these books : Noam Chomsky’s “Middle East Illusions”, Reja Shehadeh’s “When the Bulbul stopped singing” & Tanya Rheinhart’s “Israel / Palestine”. Incidentally two of those are Jewish academics of American and Israeli background, the other is a Palestinean writer who directly experienced the Occupation.
Fact is Israel strongly discriminates against their Semitic Palestinean population preventing them from having access to resources & money -their own taxes incidentally, uses curfews and collective punishment, murders their politcial leaders, grants them less human rights and second class status, preventing them from returning to their stolen and destroyed homes, walls them off into Bantustan style areas with the “apartheid fence”, steals their farmland and homes, the list goes on & on & just doesn’t stop. Sadly, the fact that its one Jewish Semitic branch persecuting an Indigenous Palestinean branch of the family seems to mean these otherwise totally ununacceptable, inexcusable breaches of Human Rights and International law are allowed to pass unpunished.
V : “The fact the Arabs are freer in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East? The fact that Arab women get to vote, go to school and drive cars?”
SCR : Heard of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, The United Arab Emirates, Kuwait and, well, just about _every_ other nation in the region, ‘Visiting’? Arabs in all those nations are far freer and better off than the Palestineans living under Israeli Occupation. Iran, you may not know had a women vice-President a few years ago - & may still have one as far as I know. Women _do_ drive in many of those nations; they certainly did in Iraq until it was bombed and invaded. Kuwait changed its laws and held elections post Gulf War I.
OTOH Palestineans in Israel are frequently denied the right to vote - and even when they do they’re democratic choice is rejected violently NOT only by the occupying power but by America, the nation that claims to support democracy - although clearly only when others vote as they’re told!
(No, I don’t like Hamas either - but they did get voted in legitimately which is more than can be said for Bush Jr that first time! Moreover encouraging them to go down the IRA route and participate in democratic elections seems far better than the alternative which just isn’t working!)
Oh, as for driving, haven’t you heard of the Jews-only roads in Israel & the Palestinean Territories or the system of roadblocks and checkpoints that prevent Palestineans - women, men and children alike from freely moving about their own nation?
V: “Pretty soon you’ll be telling us that Jimmy Carter was the best thing since Lincoln ”
SCR: Know what - you may be right there!
Carter certainly was a deserved Nobel-prize winner and far better President than themorons in charge now! Wodorow Wilson & Bill Clinton were pretty reasonable too … At least when Clinton lied it only hurt his immediate family emotionally rather than dragging the nation into a counter-productive, illegal and horrendously brutal, futile and agonising war physically costing the lives, limbs and homes of thousands of innocents on both sides.
V: “Poll after poll of the American people show overwhelming support for Israel. It is not the “Jewish†lobby it’s the American people. Israel is a bastion of democracy in the ME. Try being a gay activist in Syria and see how long you live. Try practicing - openly - Christianity in Saudi Arabia (or Gaza for that matter -”
Er.. ‘Visiting’, the Palestineans _are_ Christian as well as Muslim. Well, okay many of them - about 30 %are Christian while others are Muslim and some are atheists. Hanan Ashrawri former spokesperson and ambassador is Christian for example. & Ok, Syria isn’t strong on gay rights but then try being a gay activist in Bible Belt America for that matter - the name Matthew Shepherd ring any bells? There are ugly, ignorant and intolerant people in all nations, mate -sadly, I get the feeling you just might be one of them too!
As for “most Amercians”, well most Americans thought Iraq had links toAlQuadea and had WMD’s -didn’t make ‘em right about that, does’nt make ‘em rightabout the Palestinea issue either. 45 %of Amecians believe inCreationism -going to take their word on that? Medaicoverage in America is incredibly biased against Palestineans and the Muslim world generally. If you don’t believe me then do your own survey - how many times is their side mentioned and examined fairly? How many times do you see editorals or commentators supporting Palestineans or Muslims etc ..?
Irishman : “Israel is surrounded by countries full of people who despise its very existence. Of course it has a large, well-trained, well-funded, strong military. It’s called self-preservation. ”
SCR : & If they stick to self-preservation I’d be fine with that.
But when they invade and occupy other people’s lands eg. Palestinean territories, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, etc .. and when they stat thinking _only_ they have the right to have miltary might and WMDs then I take issue with them.
If its okay for Israel to have nukes then it should be okay for Iran, Syria and others to as well. If its okay for Israel to attack Lebanon then it should be okay for them to attack Israel and so forth. Its called basic fairness and balance. If Israel shouldn’t be attacked it should leave its neighbours -including the Palestineans in peace. If it wants to live in securityand freedom and be recognised as human and just itshouldact thatway towards them. I only wish they would.
Israel has NOT yet tried that simple policy - admit it has treated the Palestineans badly, make some fair recompense and start living side by side accepting Palestine’s right to exist and be secure chasing their life, freedom and pursuit of happiness as they’d seek to be done by. Palestinaens, Arabs and Muslims are human beings too - “prick them & they bleed, wrong them & they shall seek revenge” as Shakespeare noted. Treat them fairly and with compassion and they will reciprocate in kind.
Its long-overdue that Israel,and Americans generally _really_ appreciated that and behaved accordingly rather than demonising their occupied for fighting the occupier. Palestineans have a right to be angry as does the Muslim world - take away the cause of that anger by acting fairly and justly for a change and the over-emphasised, politically-exploited symptoms of Islamic “terrorism” will fade away.
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