“StevoR (why has no one else taken him to task for the blatant antismeitism?)”

SCR (StevoR) : Maybe because you missed the fact that I stated anti-Semtism is ugly, wrong, evil and unacceptable -as is racism and people killing or persecuting others generally. Criticism of Israel & its policies - which lets not forget include torture, political assasinations, deliberate de-development, illegal settlements, institutionalised racism & apartheid, ad nauseum - isn’t anti-Semitic, just reasonable,indeed an ethical obligation, given their actions!

V : “- Why don’t you really tell us what an incoht you think about Jews?”

SCR : Que? (That’s “what” in Spanish BTW.) Maybe I would if I understood what the heck you were asking … But there’s an essay or two in that rather than just a single post!
V : “What an incoherent screed! Since this is a fact driven site, please back up your comments with facts. For instance (typos in original)

1. “overlooked in favour of the smaller, admittedly inexcusably shameful event affecting the richer, more Westernised minority.” Please provide the facts showing that, for example, Polish Jews during WWII living in shetals were “richer”???”

SCR : Umm .. Little bit of context here mate, I was comparing Ashkenazi Jews with Tibetans, Chechens, Darfuri’s, West Papuans and others not necessarily their immediate Euriopean neighbours. However, its common knowledge that in many, if not all cases, the Ashkenazi communities were at least marginally better off than their Slavic neighbours. There were many reasons for this incl. Jewish communities sticking together and having a higher percentage of educated people and hence more available medical expertise .. BTW. I’ve gotten this knowlege from reading history texts about the time incl. contemporaryaccounts & from the Jewish side too. No stats but it is a generally accepted fact.

V: “2. “Given the Palestineans, Lebanese and other Arab neighbours they keep attacking and oppressing are also Semitic peoples, its an ironic & little realised fact that Israel is arguably the most anti-Semitic nation on the planet!” Please provide facts here - Israel was attacked across its border from Lebanon and retaliated … Most “anti-Semitic” - based on what statistics? That qualifies as most “anti-Semitic” - open your eyes to the facts.”

Israel sparked the whole affair by shelling a beach in Gaza murdering an innocent family - Hizbollah responded with raids and kidnapping an Israeli soldier. Israel responded to that by launching a massively disproportionate aerial bombardment and invasion of another nation that had nothing to do with Hizbollah’s actions and no control over the group.Lebanonas anation as opposed to the guerilla group Hezbollah was, in fact, defenceless havingf onlyjustpulleditself togetherafter thelastIsreali invasionof their land. Isreal wentonto blastand invade Lebanon for weeks killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent people and making at least double that number homeless. Even accepting Isreal had _some_ basis for action, its response was unquestionably completely disproportionate, misdirected and a massive unjustified overreaction. It also made it worse off rather than better and failed to acheive its mission. Just think if only it hadn’t shelled that Gazan beach in the first place! Sigh.

Fact is Palestineans and Israelis are closely related peoples - all of “Semitic” stock - if that outdated notion of ethnicity counts for anything. Isreal is a nation that discrimiantes strongly against their Semtic Palestinean population. If you dispute this try reading a bit from the other side of the story - I suggest these books : Noam Chomsky’s “Middle East Illusions”, Reja Shehadeh’s “When the Bulbul stopped singing” & Tanya Rheinhart’s “Israel / Palestine”. Incidentally two of those are Jewish academics of American and Israeli background, the other is a Palestinean writer who directly experienced the Occupation.

Fact is Israel strongly discriminates against their Semitic Palestinean population preventing them from having access to resources & money -their own taxes incidentally, uses curfews and collective punishment, murders their politcial leaders, grants them less human rights and second class status, preventing them from returning to their stolen and destroyed homes, walls them off into Bantustan style areas with the “apartheid fence”, steals their farmland and homes, the list goes on & on & just doesn’t stop. Sadly, the fact that its one Jewish Semitic branch persecuting an Indigenous Palestinean branch of the family seems to mean these otherwise totally ununacceptable, inexcusable breaches of Human Rights and International law are allowed to pass unpunished.

V : “The fact the Arabs are freer in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East? The fact that Arab women get to vote, go to school and drive cars?”

SCR : Heard of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, The United Arab Emirates, Kuwait and, well, just about _every_ other nation in the region, ‘Visiting’? Arabs in all those nations are far freer and better off than the Palestineans living under Israeli Occupation. Iran, you may not know had a women vice-President a few years ago - & may still have one as far as I know. Women _do_ drive in many of those nations; they certainly did in Iraq until it was bombed and invaded. Kuwait changed its laws and held elections post Gulf War I.

OTOH Palestineans in Israel are frequently denied the right to vote - and even when they do they’re democratic choice is rejected violently NOT only by the occupying power but by America, the nation that claims to support democracy - although clearly only when others vote as they’re told!
(No, I don’t like Hamas either - but they did get voted in legitimately which is more than can be said for Bush Jr that first time! Moreover encouraging them to go down the IRA route and participate in democratic elections seems far better than the alternative which just isn’t working!)

Oh, as for driving, haven’t you heard of the Jews-only roads in Israel & the Palestinean Territories or the system of roadblocks and checkpoints that prevent Palestineans - women, men and children alike from freely moving about their own nation?

V: “Pretty soon you’ll be telling us that Jimmy Carter was the best thing since Lincoln ”

SCR: Know what - you may be right there! Carter certainly was a deserved Nobel-prize winner and far better President than themorons in charge now! Wodorow Wilson & Bill Clinton were pretty reasonable too … At least when Clinton lied it only hurt his immediate family emotionally rather than dragging the nation into a counter-productive, illegal and horrendously brutal, futile and agonising war physically costing the lives, limbs and homes of thousands of innocents on both sides.

V: “Poll after poll of the American people show overwhelming support for Israel. It is not the “Jewish” lobby it’s the American people. Israel is a bastion of democracy in the ME. Try being a gay activist in Syria and see how long you live. Try practicing - openly - Christianity in Saudi Arabia (or Gaza for that matter -”

Er.. ‘Visiting’, the Palestineans _are_ Christian as well as Muslim. Well, okay many of them - about 30 %are Christian while others are Muslim and some are atheists. Hanan Ashrawri former spokesperson and ambassador is Christian for example. & Ok, Syria isn’t strong on gay rights but then try being a gay activist in Bible Belt America for that matter - the name Matthew Shepherd ring any bells? There are ugly, ignorant and intolerant people in all nations, mate -sadly, I get the feeling you just might be one of them too!

As for “most Amercians”, well most Americans thought Iraq had links toAlQuadea and had WMD’s -didn’t make ‘em right about that, does’nt make ‘em rightabout the Palestinea issue either. 45 %of Amecians believe inCreationism -going to take their word on that? Medaicoverage in America is incredibly biased against Palestineans and the Muslim world generally. If you don’t believe me then do your own survey - how many times is their side mentioned and examined fairly? How many times do you see editorals or commentators supporting Palestineans or Muslims etc ..?

Irishman : “Israel is surrounded by countries full of people who despise its very existence. Of course it has a large, well-trained, well-funded, strong military. It’s called self-preservation. ”

SCR : & If they stick to self-preservation I’d be fine with that.
But when they invade and occupy other people’s lands eg. Palestinean territories, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, etc .. and when they stat thinking _only_ they have the right to have miltary might and WMDs then I take issue with them.

If its okay for Israel to have nukes then it should be okay for Iran, Syria and others to as well. If its okay for Israel to attack Lebanon then it should be okay for them to attack Israel and so forth. Its called basic fairness and balance. If Israel shouldn’t be attacked it should leave its neighbours -including the Palestineans in peace. If it wants to live in securityand freedom and be recognised as human and just itshouldact thatway towards them. I only wish they would.

Israel has NOT yet tried that simple policy - admit it has treated the Palestineans badly, make some fair recompense and start living side by side accepting Palestine’s right to exist and be secure chasing their life, freedom and pursuit of happiness as they’d seek to be done by. Palestinaens, Arabs and Muslims are human beings too - “prick them & they bleed, wrong them & they shall seek revenge” as Shakespeare noted. Treat them fairly and with compassion and they will reciprocate in kind.

Its long-overdue that Israel,and Americans generally _really_ appreciated that and behaved accordingly rather than demonising their occupied for fighting the occupier. Palestineans have a right to be angry as does the Muslim world - take away the cause of that anger by acting fairly and justly for a change and the over-emphasised, politically-exploited symptoms of Islamic “terrorism” will fade away.
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Feel free to quote & forward this if you like, y’all.

That’s an interesting article and I need to read it some more to give it a fair treatment, but one thing pops out at me:

On pg. 2,

“These findings refer strictly to the news stories of the outlets. That is, we omitted editorials, book reviews, and letters to the editor from our sample.”

That’s omitting a lot. I understand why they did this, but that’s still a lot to leave out. I’ve known people from other countries who come here and contrast the news here with what they find at home: While the facts in the news are generally ok, the storyline and “conclusions” reached seem to be subtly spun. The editorials and other opinion-carrying parts of the newspapers weigh very heavily. I know this isn’t refuting the study you cite–I’m just saying that it’s hard to take its conclusions as substantive when it ignores the elite opinion-makers that take up so much airtime and print space.

Who invaded whom? Let’s see, armed Lebanese crossed into Israel and captured soldiers, taking them hostage. Who invaded whom?

Israel is surrounded by countries full of people who despise its very existence. Of course it has a large, well-trained, well-funded, strong military. It’s called self-preservation.

I will grant there were a number of mass-slaughters and execution programs that by numbers outweigh what happened to the Jews in World War II. I will grant that there could be more attention payed to the other victims of Hitler and the NAZI’s. Your tone, though, comes off far more concerned with bashing Jews and Israel than with raising awareness of other issues.

2. “Given the Palestineans, Lebanese and other Arab neighbours they keep attacking and oppressing are also Semitic peoples, its an ironic & little realised fact that Israel is arguably the most anti-Semitic nation on the planet!”
Please provide facts here - Israel was attacked across its border from Lebanon and retaliated (its soldiers are still held captive - where is the Red Cross or Amnesty International and why aren’t they holding vigils? Where is the outrage at the UN?). Most “anti-Semitic” - based on what statistics? The fact the Arabs are freer in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East? The fact that Arab women get to vote, go to school and drive cars? That qualifies as most “anti-Semitic” - open your eyes to the facts.
3. “Moreover, lets not deny another unpalatable truth - that the Jewish-Isreali lobby has been getting away, quite literally, with murder and repression because of its tragic past incl. the Shoah and pogroms ever since.”
Wow - Walt and Mearsheimer all over again. Pretty soon you’ll be telling us that Jimmy Carter was the best thing since Lincoln (my screed). Poll after poll of the American people show overwhelming support for Israel. It is not the “Jewish” lobby it’s the American people. Israel is a bastion of democracy in the ME. Try being a gay activist in Syria and see how long you live. Try practicing - openly - Christianity in Saudi Arabia (or Gaza for that matter -http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848535.html). Americans support Israel because, despite it faults like all other countries, it is a liberal democracy in a sea of totalitarian dictators - Americans in general tend not to support hereditary rule.

That’s a sad statement coming from a supposed defender of scientific truth and skeptic. You’ve let your guard down, Phil.

Look, I’m no lover of the FNC, but this idea that Fox News is some sort of major propaganda mill is just not supported by any empirical evidence. Thye have a bis, but thei bias is no worse than any other news outlet.

http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.pdf

The “Faux News” meme is a zero level of intellect along with the moon hoax and other paragons of anti-reality.

A defense of Fox by Susan Estritch- hardly a right winger.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0621/p09s02-coop.html