This MSNBC article (via Fark; original Reuters article here) is so full of head-exploding irony it should come with a warning.
Proceed at your own risk.
Synopsis: a group calling itself Invincible America Assembly has claimed responsibility for the record high Dow Jones of last week (and say they will guarantee it’ll hit 17,000 this year thanks to them, too) and for North Korea shutting down their nuclear reactor projects.
How do they do this? Why, by meditation, of course!
Now, we know through about a billion studies that things like this have absolutely no affect whatsoever on the outside world, and that these people are deluding themselves. If you disagree, then I suggest you take a moment and educate yourself on these things (try the Skeptic Dictionary, for example, specifically here and here) before complaining in the comments.
Back now? Good. Now listen to the irony-gland-detonating comments by John Hagelin, the head meditating guy:
“This is not praying for peace, this is not sending out positive thoughts for peace,” Roth said. “This is diving deep into one’s own consciousness.”
It’s not prayer, see? We’re sitting around, thinking about stuff, and doing nothing positive, pro-active, or actually physical, but it’s not prayer.
Yeah.
Then he says this, which is the keeper, the biggie, the one that will melt your brain:
“We have control over things we didn’t have control over before. That’s the progress of science,” Hagelin said.
AIIIIEEEEE! AIIIIEEEEEE! PFFFSSSSSTTTT! BANG!!
Yup. I couldn’t even type that quotation out, and now I need yet another irony gland transplant. You’d think I’d have learned by now.
Well, I’m glad they’ve taken credit for those two good things since June 2006, when they started praying meditating. But they may have forgotten about the roughly 1500 soldiers who have died in Iraq since then (the number of whom per month, curiously, seems to have risen steadily since June 2006), the firing of 30,000 people from Ford factories in January, the 1000 people killed by earthquakes around the world, the stock market setback in March (and the recent 500 point tumble — the worst in 5 years — at the same time this article on meditation was released), and, oh, a few other things that have gone sour since last June. I’m sure you can think of others.
That people would make such ridiculous and patently false claims is not surprising; what’s sad is that Reuters would choose to write it up (and MSNBC print it) with absolutely no skeptical information.
Feh.
And the final proof that these guys are full of it? The fact that I’m so angry at them!
Need I say it?
Irony!
July 30th, 2007 at 9:50 am
The msnbc article has been updated so that the first line reads: “U.S. stocks had a tough week with the Dow Jones Industrial Average suffering its worst one-week point drop in five years, but a group of meditators promise their good vibrations will send the index past 17,000 within a year.”
July 30th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Well, this meditation science is more useful than NASA’s fake science program! I just saw this comment by S. Ray DeRusse where he claims that NASA is discrediting good science since their program would be overshadowed.
http://www.dailytech.com/The+NASA+Year+of+Controversy/article8220.htm
“When BCC Meteorites launched our analytical information on the geomorphology of stellar grain composition and cometary grain composition, NASA began to panic. Why? Because these discoveries overshadowed their pending Deep Impact-Tempel 1 and the Stardust Wild 2 cometary missions. Since they were aware of us, scientists for those missions began quietly releasing information on the results and not surprisingly, and lo and behold it agrees with our high temperature “micro-crystalline silicates” which we obtained from our sample analysis.”
July 30th, 2007 at 10:20 am
No doubt a reporter would claim that offering skeptical content would not be objective reporting, that such an inclusion would constitute an op-ed piece. And to some extent that would be right, even though on occasion news reports do offer a dissenting opinion from some expert or other. Somehow I don’t think that’s necessary in this case. I really believe that most people will look at this as pretty kooky, and what would be the point of preaching to the believers? It’s not as if they are using scientific terminology meant to fool people, as the IDers do–they’re clearly giving you the impression of a bunch of folks sitting cross-legged on the floor and humming or whatever it is they do. The sad thing, though, is that we all know that when things don’t improve according to their predictions, the media won’t follow up on it.
At least they’re a happy, positive bunch of kooks who are not selling anything or running for office. I have a child in public school in Texas, I have bigger things to worry about!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Is that even NEWS? Why are the media even giving attention to these quarks?
Oh wait, I know. It’s either cuz it’s a slow news day or because we all love taking a laugh at overly delusional quarks…
July 30th, 2007 at 10:32 am
They take credit, but will they take responsibility too?
July 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am
hahaha… Man! That hurts.
I’d believe in it if I didn’t just spend the last three weeks prayi… err… meditating that someone would bring me a really yummy BLT (Don’t look at me like that, Phil. These things have to be tested from time to time).
As it stands, I’ve lost twenty pounds, and the cat is starting to look pretty tasty. So, it’s clear that pra… err… meditation doesn’t work.
Aside from that nonsense, that crack about science it head spinning in its insanity. I’ve had to read it a couple of times just to make sure it didn’t say “That’s the progress of a complete disregard and lack of science and sanity.”
July 30th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Ah well your problem Phil is that your just a muggle, you non magic folk cannot possibly understand.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Fools!
You have obviously ignored the many signs outside churches that read “Pray until something happens.” Translation: “Sit around and mumble to yourself. Keep at it until something changes. Associate that change with your mumbling. Viola! It really works! Magic!”
Every time I see that I’m left dumbfounded. It might as easily read “Stick your thumb up your rectum until the weather changes. When it does, pull out your thumb, raise it high, and declare yourself a weather god!”
OEJ
July 30th, 2007 at 11:13 am
I hereby declare that I will sit and invoke some prayer….err…meditate…er…I mean do absolutely nothing, and when this group’s claims fail miserably (a DOW of 17K this year?), I will take full credit for it.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:21 am
“and the recent 500 point tumble — the worst in 5 years — at the same time this article on meditation was released”
Well duh, they had to stop meditating for a short while to release the article and *BAM* it tumbled.
July 30th, 2007 at 11:31 am
And Phil, you forgot to mention the estimated 300,000 Iraqis who have been killed since then (extrapolating from the only scientific estimate done by researchers from Johns Hopkins, who estimated that 650,000 had died as of July 2006).
A full explanation here:
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
July 30th, 2007 at 11:36 am
“…a group of meditators promise their good vibrations…”
“I’m pickin’ up Good Vibrations,
She’s givin’ me excitations,
Good, Good, Good, Vibrations”
Beach Boys, ca. 1966
July 30th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Oh the shame- my fav. director David Lynch gives millions to these hucksters.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
The article is one of the Reuter’s “Oddly Enough” - articles about unusual news - they just report it and let the readers draw their own conclusions. They apparently assume that most readers would see by themselves how ridiculous these people are.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Need I even say it? Meditation IS NOT SCIENCE!! What’s the matter with these people?
But of course this is all just a reflection of the fuzzy-headed thinking that dominates in the public, encouraged by popular media and reinforced by our lackluster (and increasingly corrupted) schools.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Even the MSNBC article is posted in their “Peculiar Postings” section, with a list of several others that readers can vote on being the most peculiar.
I’m not really sure either MSNBC or Reuter’s is taking it too seriously.
July 30th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
“But they may have forgotten about the roughly 1500 soldiers who have died in Iraq since then (the number of whom per month, curiously, seems to have risen steadily since June 2006), the firing of 30,000 people from Ford factories in January, the 1000 people killed by earthquakes around the world, the stock market setback in March (and the recent 500 point tumble — the worst in 5 years — at the same time this article on meditation was released), and, oh, a few other things that have gone sour since last June.”
Clearly, it’s the Law of Equivalent Exchange in action.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Oh the pictures in my head. Now I know how an exploding irony gland looks like… I just love your way of putting things, Phil! It is truly sad how people seem to be able to ignore they have a brain, but nevertheless I’ll be chuckling at this for days. Thanks!
July 30th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Why is it, every time Dr. BA posts articles like this I feel like singing Scarecrow’s theme from the Wizard of Oz?
“If I only had a brain….”
I also noticed that they claim 1800 ‘meditators’ but if they get to 8000 they will achieve whirled peas! (Either that or they can finally send off for the Captain America Secret Decoder ring they’ve been pining for…
C’mon, gang! Let’s all move to Iowa, and join this bunch of woo - ahem, community of positive energy! Who’s with me?
July 30th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
This is the transcendental meditation group that practice levitation by hopping on their butts. They sit in lotus position and then hop around on mats, while still in lotus position. They claim to achieve brief periods of levitation while in the middle of their ballistic arcs. Uh huh.
As for this line:
The originator appears to be trying to make a distinction. Praying is calling out to the heavens/deity to provide something. Positive thoughts for peace seems to be sending out thoughts, sort of reflecting on good things. The distinction Roth appears to be trying to make is that the process is inner reflection and self-improvement. Okay, so the distinction seems fairly thin, still it does seem to be an attempt at semantic contact difference.
Uh, respectfully, all that proves is that they annoy you, not that they’re wrong.
William F, I read the linked article and comment. I have no information regarding BCC Meteorites through which to put this into context. I fail to see any fake science. His example at the bottom is particularly perplexing. He states that the Dawn mission is fake science, and cites as proof an interview with the Project Manager, Keyur Patel. I can’t find anything in that quoted bit that is suspicious in any way.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
We had this bunch form a political party, the Natural Law Party, in Canada, and they ran in several elections in the late ’90s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Law_Party_of_Canada
They were led, in spirit, at least, by Doug Henning. So far, the big event has been to make the Natural Law Party disappear, at least from the Canadian scene.
It’s outfits like this that undermine the arguments for proportional representation.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Enhance your calm, citizen. ‘Cause you’re really harshing my mellow.
I feel the need to see Robert Stack making his entrance into the airport in Airplane!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjmVQ9WAiZc
July 30th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Meditation is not science.
And Meditation is not necessarily prayer.
Prayer is a subset of meditation, a peculiar religious subset at that.
Meditation on the other hand takes on many different forms:
Vippassana
Kriya
Kundalini
Raja yoga
etc etc etc
The complete list is quite large and each technique is subtly different from the next.
Prayer on the other hand, is a religious subset of Raya Yoga, in which thought is controlled in both content and direction.
In the case of Christian prayer, thought is controlled along purely Christian religious themes and usually directed at a Deity (God) and/or intermediary (Jesus/Saints etc). I have a feeling that many christians would dislike my saying that their prayers are actually a subset of Raja Yoga (which has it’s base in Hinduism), but then again I dont really care. I personally have always considered Christianity, in the same way as many Buddhists, simply put Christianity is an imperfect form of Buddhism. Both Christianity and Buddhism are also very similar to Bahkti (devotional) Yoga as well.
How meditation, which is essentially an internal excersice and quite relaxing, would effect the stock market, is a good question?
Unless the majority of stock brokers in a given market were involved in this particular practice (and thus actively working together), I cant see how an effect could be achieved.
If meditation could steer the course of stocks, I’d be a very rich man indeed. Alas, this is not the case.
Folcrom.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
At least they’re a happy, positive bunch of kooks who are not selling anything or running for office.
Wrong! John Hegelin ran for President and Vice President of the U.S. at least three times in the last 20 years. See this wikipedia article for more:
(He’s also a particle physicist.)
July 30th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
D’oh! Maybe this link will work?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin
July 30th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
I think he meant, at least they are not kooks who are *winning* elections to public office! Also, I think we are missing one important point– we are very deeply in the debt of people like this. Their version of pseudoscience is actually testable, as they are making predictions. As such, they actually make it easier to tell the difference between science and pseudoscience– they are practically an educational tool. Hats off to ‘em!
July 31st, 2007 at 5:43 am
Hagelin’s claims appear to be much more successful, now that he’s making them after something happens. Wasn’t the fleet of yogic fliers supposed to bring about world peace the last time Hagelin ran for president?
July 31st, 2007 at 6:28 am
It took awhile to clean up the mess my head exploding made.
While meditation can be kind of relaxing….zzzzz…..*snore*…..zzzzz… oh, sorry, I drifted off. Anyway, while relaxing it can be, if you think you’re having an effect on anything outside your own head, you might just want to get that head examined.
July 31st, 2007 at 11:02 am
Meditation DOES work to lower blood pressure,,,so does walking two miles(I always walk a couple of miles, three hours before seeing my Doctor. Drops BP about 20 points). I guess meditation is something our passive population really loves, as it requires so few calories to be expended. Actively working for positive change is difficult(just ask Phil) but at least it keeps woo-woos down on the farm, well away from Paris,,,(and I don’t mean Hilton, though that is probably a good thing too,,,).
As most practitioners of yoga know, meditation is for ones internal peace and tranquility. The expectation that it could have any external effect is an example of woo-woo thinking. On the other hand, if 6.5 billion people concentrate really, really hard, then all that brain power(at about ten watts per brain) could possibly lift a pencil,,,or maybe not,,,i fear some brains have a negative power curve,,,ie, they’re energy sinks,,,like Hoagland,,,
I’m gonna go meditate on chocolate, then go out and pay hard earned cash to Hersheys,,,
Gary 7
July 31st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Hi - Regular reader, first time poster. I agree with earlier commenters: there are distinctions to be made.
- Between meditation that is internally focused and meditation as … what these people claim to be doing, with measurable results in the world. I think these people were kooks before they were meditators. They just happened to pick something they call meditation as the vehicle of their kookery. But hey! If they can actually get something done, more power to them.
- Between prayer and meditation, or between “sitting around thinking about things” and meditation, or between religious dogma and meditation. Meditation is (or can be, or should be, in my view), a practice, an action. It is not a set of ideas to ponder or anyone’s explanation of what happens (or doesn’t happen) when you meditate. Any dogma or ideas or explanations or intellectual models of meditation are unimportant. The *practice* is what is (can be, should be) important.
It’s sort of like riding a bike. You could be an expert on human physiology and bicycle design and still be unable to ride a bike. The former involves intellectual models, representations. The latter is a practice, something you do. In both cases—meditation and bike riding—the *less* you think about it, the better.
Of course there *is* a difference in that you can measure bike riding from the outside, but as a purely internal practice, typically the only one competent to evaluate meditative practice is the meditator herself. If you think that dooms meditation ontologically, that’s your business. Some pretty sharp people would disagree, but it doesn’t really matter. If you treat it as a practice, you can maintain complete intellectual skepticism of meditation but do it anyway!
(by the way, welcome to boulder!
)
July 31st, 2007 at 4:28 pm
I remember John Hagelin running for President in the 90s. The Natural Law party has a facade of being very reasonable. Look below the surface and you’ve got bouncing or excuse me “flying” mediators and a thread of lunacy that is exuded like a magician’s never ending handkerchief. Some thing his success in particle physics gives this lunacy credibility. I don’t think so, you’ve got a wide variety of people practicing a particular religion some have to be fairly intelligent in some area or another.
One thing I enjoy about predictions psychic OR loony doesn’t make a difference, is they usually end up being wrong. The U.S. and the world are heading for recession, all the signs are there. 17,000 bah I doubt it. And if I’m right don’t nominate me as a psychic, just guessing here! It is important to mentally or materially write down predictions so that you can verify their eventual dubious outcome. (Calenders work great!)
Yet another link http://www.hagelin.org/
August 13th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
[…] several percent in just two days. But how is this possible? Isn’t the Aqua Teen Hunger Force Invincible America Assembly on the job, meditating us into as happy, bright […]
August 13th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Irony upon irony: Google Ads placed the following image on this article:
http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CIy735umg6_GKBDQAhiYAjIIMlH7z8n546Y
August 14th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Considering that TM seems to be derived from Vaishnavism (one of the major Hindu religions) and the Mahabharata is filled with references to humans exerting influence over gods (as opposed to the standard Abrahamic concept of prayer, where one merely hopes that the Deity will answer one’s prayer), I’m not surprised at TM claims of power through meditation, irrational and unrealistic as the claims are. Though if they have such power and are serious about exerting it, the Mahabharata indicates they ought to be prepared for the gods to whomp them really hard and really soon since the gods are paranoid about mortals gaining too much power.
Aaron
September 13th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Um…. dear person who posted this initial rant(guy who runs this web-site I think):
Basically agree with you about these meditating confused individuals. Side note: I don’t see them mention ANY kind of god, so I’m not sure about your ‘prayer’ references…. are you some kind of liberal nut-job? Wait: are you one of those folks who hates all religions except islam or something? A supporter of CAIR, ACLU, and/or moveon.org ?
Your statement about the US casualty rate in Iraq “having risen since June 2006″, is proven untrue by YOUR OWN link to the icasualties.org web site.
Here is the data for the past few months cut and paste from that site:
May-07 126
Jun-07 101
Jul-07 79
Aug-07 84
Sep-07 34
How’s your math? I’m surprised an astronomer wouldn’t be a little more polished in that area. I believe those numbers indicate that the much-ridiculed ’surge’ is working. In truth: we should just build heavily fortified walls around all the oil wells and create military-protected roads and ports and just siphon out OUR oil while they have their civil war. Our Prez. Bush can give a global address: “we handed the Iraqis their own country and the idiots proved that they don’t deserve one…. similar to the palestinians”
Anyway astronomy-boy: you should go pray or meditate or return to school or something you U.S.-hating liberal clown.
Love,
Rich from NYC- atheist, patriot, soldier-against-islam, all-around genius and skeptic