The South Carolina (motto: "First to Secede!") governing body is maybe not so much the bastion of science and reality-based thinking. But now, as reported in The Charleston Post & Courier, they join Texas in what I can only think of as utter stupidity:
State lawmakers shot down a request for extra financial help for low-income students who will attend South Carolina’s public colleges and universities next year.
Meanwhile, they approved $2.5 million to help low-income students attend Bob Jones University, a private school in Greenville.
Yes, that BJU, where it is was* school policy to forbid interracial dating (I guess Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t be allowed to attend), and where, more to the point, they teach creationism instead of, y’know, reality.
That’s right. In South Carolina, if you are poor or middle class and want to be educated, you can either do without, or go to a private school like BJU where you’ll learn the Earth is 6000 years old!
Hooray!
If you go there, you can take a Life Science class where you can learn that:
Christians must reject any evolutionary ideas that people try to include in the classification system… God commanded all living things to reproduce "after their kind". You can see the results of God’s command by simply observing the living things around you.
Reminder: this school now receives funding from the state of South Carolina. Another reminder: this is a private school. Why are they getting public funds at all? A third reminder: the state government refused to add funding to public schools, and instead gave the money to this sham place of "learning".
[Aside: Did you know you can get Bob Jones Science Kits online? Irony gland... straining.... ]
Funny thing is, the bill passed by the SC legislation doesn’t single out BJU. However, under the new rules, BJU is the only institution in the state that benefits from them! It used to be that to get SC state funds a school had to be accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Now the brain trust in the SC government has said that all it takes is to "be a bachelor’s level institution chartered before 1962 with a major campus and headquarters in South Carolina!". No accreditation needed!
Of course, BJU is accredited… by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools. That sounds legit enough… until you actually do some, y’know, research. If you go to their website and look at their educational standards for schools they accredit, you’ll see this gem:
The institution must have a Biblical Foundations Statement that includes affirmations of tenets such as … the divine work of non-evolutionary creation including persons in God’s image… Special creation of the existing space-time universe and all its basic systems and kinds of organisms in the six literal days of the creation week.
That’s right. To get accredited by this fine organization, you have to affirm that you do not teach evolution, and/or that you do teach young Earth creationism.
Also, you have to affirm that existence of Satan.
Heaven help us.
I could go on and on, and it’s hard to know where to stop pointing out the nonsense in this incredibly foolish move by the South Carolina government. They are firmly, resolutely — and quite blindly –walking down the path of doom for their children.
So, it must be said:
South Carolina:
Oh, one more thing: the legislation was sponsored by both a Republican and a Democrat. It just goes to show you that not just one political party holds the reins to religious fundamentalism… though I still say one has a much firmer grip (or, more accurately, has it wrapped around their neck) than the other.
Oh, one more one more thing: d’ya think this legislation would have passed — would even have been written — had the only beneficiary been, say, a fundamentalist Muslim school? Think on that, and answer it truthfully to yourself before you attack me on being anti-Christian, or make some comment on separation of Church and State.
* BABloggee Gary Eller pointed out to me that the interracial dating ban was lifted in 2000, which I didn’t know. However, read here to see just how craven and evil BJU is about this.
Tip o’ the mortarboard to Janie, whose garters are constantly peeked at, and to Big Dumb Chimp (NSFW stuff in both links).
August 6th, 2007 at 11:51 am
Long sideburns that make you look like a girl are allowed either.
August 6th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Don’t forget the sort of math you can learn at BJU:
I’m also having trouble with one of the exercises:
August 6th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Lately I have been encouraged if not heartened by the release of so many books by many authors critical of dogmatic belief i.e. Sam Harris’ “The End of Faith”, Dawkin’s “The God Delusion” etc…
I feel that maybe the tide is finally turning…and then you or PZ Meyers bring me something like this and I weep for the future of humanity!
How do we even begin to combat horrors like this?
I am a father of four and I’m doing my best to raise them to think for themselves and to go where the evidence takes them while keeping an open mind. This is rather easy up here in the liberal Northeast (Massachusetts)…but how do I reconcile what we think and do here with what is going on in other areas of the SAME country!?
To quote Henry Jones Sr.
“My boy we are pilgrims in an unholy land!”
Robert
August 6th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I EAT KITTENS!!!
I go *Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom*
August 6th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Newsflash! Religious university teaches religion! Film at 11!
BJU dress code detail from Wikipedia:
“Hats may not be worn indoors except in athletic facilities.”
Actually, I have to give them that one.
For the ladies:
“The middle area of the torso may not be exposed, and tops must be long enough to meet the top of the skirt or pants.”
and
“Necklines may be no lower than four fingers below the collarbone.”
Argh! Damn them! Damn them to Hellllllllll!
Actually, you *know* all sorts of stuff goes on behind closed doors.
It’s not called BJ University for nothing, you know.
>>> “My boy we are pilgrims in an unholy land!â€
Or, in this case, a holy land.
August 6th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
>>> Explain the mathematical significance of Psalm 8:6.
Pfft! Do the math, simpleton. 8 and 6. Adds to 14 and both are the “hard” bet combinations on a crap table. Crap tables are in Vegas, the city of sin. An anagram of Las Vegas is Veg Salsa, so the Mexiacn Vegetarians are involved in a plot with the gray aliens (who have 14 fingers, 8 + 6 = 14!!!!!) to overthrow the Post Office. They are supported by the Catholic Church, so, obviously, the Pope is keeping Elvis prisoner in DaVinci’s old home as a hostage against the Bilderburg group, the Illuminati and Jesus Christ’s direct blood decedent Cleetus Christ.
God, what do they teach you kids in school these days, anyway!?
August 6th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Never underestimate the overwhelming power of fundamentalist stupidity…
Guess I’m glad I don’t live in South Carolina.
August 6th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
read The Demon Huanted World by Carl Sagan before the god delusion by dawkins. sagan does better in explaining human folly and delusions in our self importance
August 6th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
im in ur curriculmz
eatin ur brainz
August 6th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Yes- why are they getting public funds?
I feel desperately sorry for the kids in this state who can’t afford to attend a decent university. It’s a crime.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
>> Newsflash! Religious university teaches religion! Film at 11!
I think you missed the entire point of this entry.
It’s not that a religious university is teaching religion. It’s that the SC legislature has said “we will give financial healp to poor students only if they attend this religious institition, and we will not give them any money to attend public or non-fundamentalist-Christian schools”.
Basically, they’re saying “South Carolina is a fundamentalist Christian state”.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
I swear, Phil. I am this close to taking up fiddle lessons, buying some lions and changing my name to Nero.
This is infuriating.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
There is a group of Dominionist type Christians who are trying to get other fundamentalists to move to the same part of the state as BJU is located so that they can run for local offices and take over the county. I read recently that fortuately they have not had many relocaters, even the initial organizer has not moved there yet.
There is already a large contingent of fundamentalists in that scenic northwestern area of the state. Of course they think those Blue Ridge mountains were just created there “yesterday” so to speak.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Obviously this is an extremely clever plan to raise South Carolina’s student’s scores on standardized tests! All they have to do is accept some variation of the answer, “It’s God’s will†and the question will be scored as correct. No student in South Carolina will ever have less than a completely correct paper. Let’s look at some examples to see how this would work.
1. What is 5 + 6
a) 56
b) 11
c) -1
d) What God wills it to be.
2. How old is the Earth?
a) 6000 years
b) 4,000,000,000 years
c) No one knows
d) It’s as old as God wants it to be.
3. Essay question. Discuss the social and economic issues that led to the Civil War.
The Civil War started because God willed it to start.
4. What is an adjective?
Grammar is subject to God’s law and is unknowable to mere humans.
See, it works every time! South Carolina schools will be ranked as the nation’s finest.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
It’s always a good day when Dr. BA tips his mortarboard to ya’. That’s when ya’ really know ya’ said somethin’ worth sayin’.
Thank you for your kindness, Dr. BA.
Kisses
August 6th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Against interracial dating? Speaking as a pale Caucasian, I will swiftly point out that black girls and asians are awesome and have quite lofty positions in my list of former girlfriends.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
>>> I think you missed the entire point of this entry.
I think you missed the flippant, joking tone on my entire post.
ObSheesh: Sheesh!
>>> I am this close to taking up fiddle lessons
Bzzzt! Myth. Shame on you!
According to Senator Tacitus, Nero actually rushed back to Rome to organize relief efforts. Not to mention the fiddle was still 1000 years in Nero’s future.
August 6th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Now you can see why christians have picked SC for their “exodus”.
(http://christianexodus.org/)
August 6th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
[...] you’re new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!This is sad because SC has some of the best night skies in the country and could produce countless incredible [...]
August 6th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
One phrase best describes my feelings. “Shock and awe.” I guess S.C. doesnt understand the concept separation of church and state. This is a blatent disregard of the constitution. Now I’m going to go cry in a corner. (and bangs head against wall)
August 6th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
[...] Bad Astronomy has a good blog entry about South Carolina that reminds me of the post last week about Texas. Sorry to pass on the depressing news, go drink a beer after you read this one. [...]
August 6th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
“”Not to mention the fiddle was still 1000 years in Nero’s future.”"
Quite correct, Nero played on a lyre – which is sort of apporopriate, given that most current politicians ARE liars.
For the “Scholars” at BJU and the fellows of the “Creation Museum”, and the directors of the DI, see below:
(Lyre = Liar Homonym – get it?)
August 6th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Oh, and for ArenSB WRT your geometry:
Using proper logic it can be proved that a sheet of writing paper is a lazy dog. To wit:
A lazy dog is a slow pup
A slope up is an inclined plane
An ink-lined plane is a sheet of writing paper
August 6th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
I’m ashamed to admit that I grew up in that godforsaken state–in Greenville, no less. BJU RULES that idiot town, which is why I left the town *and* the state as quickly as possible. I’ll be sure to send this blog entry along to my mother in the hopes that she’ll follow my example.
As far as secession goes, I think we should just divide the nation along the Mason-Dixon line and let the Bible Belt ignoramuses go their own way. The rest of us would be better off.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Ken said:
> It’s not that a religious university is teaching religion. It’s that the SC legislature has said “we will give financial healp to poor students only if they attend this religious institition, and we will not give them any money to attend public or non-fundamentalist-Christian schoolsâ€.
> Basically, they’re saying “South Carolina is a fundamentalist Christian stateâ€.
To be fair, that’s not exactly what they said. They didn’t reduce the amount of money available to low income students going to public schools, nor did they shift money intended for low income students to attend private schools from other schools to Bob Jones University. What they did was create a criteria that looks generic but only has one school that qualifies (Bob Jones) so they can claim it wasn’t aimed at one school, and they upped the dollars for that pool of schools so no other schools would be decreased in amount. Theoretically, they could send some of the new money to some of the old private schools, but practically it seems they will send the new money to Bob Jones. Essentially they were looking for a way to include Bob Jones in the list of schools that can be funded, even though it didn’t fit the original criteria (especially accreditation).
Effectively what they are saying is South Carolina would prefer its students attend a sectarian Christian school rather than a secular public school.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
“by jove I DON’T think you’ve got it”… Phil… not everyone agrees with “the theory”… er… “the holy hypothesis of evolution”….
I have been debating, sharing with other “evolutionists†at other sites. I will now share some of the info with you.
I will post a few links and quotes from those pages with our evolutionist buddies on this blog.
The first link is a page showing over 700 scientists who have dissented from Darwinism evolution or macro evolution.
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/
Also linked on that page is a page showing pages of physicians, doctors
PHYSICIANS AND SURGEONS WHO DISSENT FROM DARWINISM
This is at the top of their page…
“As medical doctors we are skeptical of the claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the origination and complexity of life and we therefore dissent from Darwinian macro evolution as a viable theory. This does not imply the endorsement of any alternative theory.â€
I did a fast addition with the physicians and I figure there are over 875 of them.
http://www.pssiinternational.com/
Another link worth reading is “The Survival of the Fakest.†It shows some of the mind games that evolutionists have to play to keep their faith up, so to speak.
Finally I would like to direct your attention to this last Page for now.
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v5i10f.htm
A few clips from the Page above to get you hungry for truth.
“We visited the web site he referenced. It said,
According to Newsweek in 1987, “By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic
credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science…†That would make the support for creation science among those branches of science who deal with the earth and its life forms at about 0.14%. [italics and ellipsis used as on their web page]â€
700 out of 480,000? Not much but then again, who believes the majority is always right? Let’s keep going though…
“They want you to focus on the 5% versus 44%. But suppose it is really true (as Newsweek said) that in 1987 only 0.14% of all scientists believed in creation, and 10 years later 5% believed in creation (as this survey says).
If the numbers given on that web page are correct, the number of scientists who believe in creation increased from 700 in 1987 to 24,990 in 1997!â€
“The Creation Research Society currently has a membership of 650 scientists, each one holding a Master’s degree or above in a recognized field of science. In a recent article Dr. Russell Humphreys, physicist at Sandia National Laboratories, New Mexico, estimates that there are around 10,000 practicing professional scientists in the USA alone who openly believe in a six-day creation. 1
1 Ashton, In Six Days (1999) Page 284″
-ekkman
Presented for your rebuttal immediately, sincerely Mike J.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Can we have another Civil War, and this time the loser has to keep South Carolina?
August 6th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
hey! let me know before you begin sawing, as i’d like to get the hell out of here first.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Anyone read the Wiki page on BJU? It’s depressing. It has an enrollment of 4200 students, and an additional 45,000 take classes in its distance learning program. It’s one thing when your fighting a couple dozen fundies, but it changes the game when they indoctrinate 1,000+ new “soldiers” every year.
August 6th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Ah, my newly-adopted state. We meet the Jonesers every year at the South Carolina Astronomers Meeting (that’s right, SCAM) – and every year, they talk about binary stars. I guess it’s the only thing within 6000 ly of us they can study. Then they leave early, before the GRB people start talking about billions of years.
August 6th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
The greatest mistake the Union ever made was not letting the Confederacy go. Yes, there are creationists and simpletons in every state, but the highest concentration resides in the states of the old Confederacy.
Brights should align with Christian fundamentalists and push for a partition of the United States; let them have their theocracy in the Southeast, and the rest of us will rejoin the secular community of nations that believe in science, reason, and democracy. They win, we win.
And those of you stuck in what would be the “Confederacy of Jesus” would receive economic subsidies from the newly formed secular Union to relocate and receive job training. You wouldn’t be forgotten.
Sigh.
What a wonderful dream.
August 6th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
“As far as secession goes, I think we should just divide the nation along the Mason-Dixon line and let the Bible Belt ignoramuses go their own way. The rest of us would be better off.”
Recall that much of NASA is operated below this line (Texas and Florida), as is Washington, DC, but that’s probably a good thing these days. Plus I’m here, and I don’t want to be left behind!
August 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Ok. I’m going to bite on this one – if only to try to enlighten people to the fact that many Christians find these creationists as dumb as enlightened readers of this blog do.
I’m not commenting on the particular status of BJU or even the state of South Carolina (neither of which I have visited) and I fully agree with the majority of the comments here regarding the ludicrous teachings that fundamentalist Christians such are described in this and similar postings.
All I ask is that you don’t tar us all with the same brush.
Many Christians (along with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, agnostics and Jedi Knights) agree on the science that shows religious scripture to sometimes be using metaphor. This does not preclude our belief in a deity – indeed, it is very difficult to prove a god does not exist – only that there is no proof that he/she does.
And that’s fine. We can choose what we wish to believe – we call it faith. It’s not (in my – or many others – case) blind faith – nor should it ever be. Scepticism is healthy. It encourages searching, consideration and decision. It also permits further reconsideration and a possible change of mind in the light of new evidence.
My only complaint is that, sometimes, many people confuse Christian with Christian Fundamentalist. The two are very different animals. Most people who are Christian know full well that archbisop Usher’s dating of the creation of the universe as being 4004 B.C. to be bunkum in the light of scientific discoveries. Our philosophies have been amended in the light of scientific discovery since such proof is totally unassailable (when the envelope is opened showing Miss Scarlet used the revolver in the conservatory, it’s no use arguing you were positive that she was in the dining room at the time!). What seems to be difficult is to shake off the perception that we’re all still believing that only 6 days was needed from Big Bang to Dawkins.
This isn’t really a comment on this specific post – all I’m asking, as a Christian priest with a degree in astrophysics is that you all engage in discussion and realise that we’re not all nutters (although many are).
August 6th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
First, I find news like this outrageous – how on Earth can such blatant violation of the constitution of the United States happen? Tax dollars going to religious schools, teaching the literal view of a particular religion at the exclusion of science!
There should be some sort of an accelerated justice procedure when it comes to complaints of states passing legislation which violates the constitution: it should be required that any such case has priority, and must be resolved in higher courts within, say, a month of the complaint.
Second, as response to Selina Morse – I know fully well that fundamentalists represent only a portion of Christians, and where I live (Finland) a very, very, tiny portion, but what I see in America is the fundamentalists making all the noise, and the moderate Christians, for the most part, watching it happen in silence.
I very, very rarely see a Christian contesting the fundamentalist claims, or openly challenging the fundamentalist agendas (though there are notable exceptions, for example, this great moderate Christian site on the age of the Earth: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html ). And this I think is regrettable: I should think that the moderate Christians should have a better position of getting through to a fundamentalists than the atheist-dominated, active sceptical community, that’s currently trying to fight Christian fundamentalism.
I can only say what this silence looks like from an atheist perspective: it looks like the moderate Christian isn’t confident in his interpretation of the Bible, and isn’t confident that they’d measure up in a debate on Biblical grounds. I don’t know if this is the case, but it certainly looks like it. And I bet that that’s what it looks like to a Christian fundamentalist too.
August 6th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Jarno,
Thanks. I think you’re right in that Christians contesting the claims of fundamentalists are not as well-known as would be healthy. I think there are some reasons for this.
For a start, fundamentalists are actually a lot harder to deal with than sceptics. I’m not trying to use flattery here, but sceptics think! Fundamentalists adhere to rigid “laws” that they have been indoctrinated into. Consequently, it’s easier to persuade a sceptical mind to think about an idea/philosophy than to one that is totally closed to anything other than a simplistic understanding of the Bible.
Secondly, there is the “shock-culture”. News is made from radical viewpoints. Media are more likely to carry a story like “Jesus was a woman” than “Priest affirms the Big Bang”. I know this is a mixed metaphor but it is used simply to illustrate how the media works.
Thirdly, well, this is where I struggle a bit. I live in the UK and we don’t have the same forms of fundamentalism that you seem to have in the USA. We don’t have schools teaching us that the Grand Canyon is only 6000 years old. Many of your states are similar in size to the UK so when a state has a policy that teaches such anti-science…I struggle to understand how that situation can have arisen, let alone how it can be ignored by Christian Thinkers. I hope that if such a situation were to arise this side of the pond, there would be a considerable backlash from the scientific Christians. In the UK, religions do have detractors – Richard Dawkins is the most famous – but there are others. At the same time, there are counter-arguments put forward by Christian leaders but, they are not as “newsworthy” as the initial attack appear.
I’ll be happy to argue, deliberate and discuss any point of science you (or any othe BA Blogger) would wish to put forward. You might find it surprising in that I would agree with you (indeed – if you approach it from a science point of view that is almost certainly the case).
All I’m saying is that, you are right – Christians should be arguing for a more confident, scientific interpretation of the Bible. I’m sorry that it appears that no-one in South Carolina is prepared to do this.
August 6th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
eh, no one ever said that all christians are creationists here Selina. Why does someone always post a comment like this when the subject is about creationism? I don’t get it.
If you are not offended, or included among the group of people mentioned in the post, why bother posting a comment like yours? We are not dumb either, we get the difference between fundamentalist and not. Isn’t that kind of obvious?
August 6th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I’m a Charlestonian (that’s someone from Charleston, SC). I won’t re-fight the War of Northern Agression with y’all. I will remind y’all that if the US Army treated Iraq or Afghanistan the way it treated the “Rebellious States”, not only would Nancy Pelosi, et al be screaming for Courts Martial, but also most of the Pentagon would.
That said, most of my friends and I were absolutely flabbergasted by our State Legislature’s funding of BJU. Actually, several small, private colleges in SC have received state $$, but BJU is the most controversial one to do so. BJU is a blight on this state!
August 6th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Selina- I am careful to write about fundamentalist religion, and not religion in general, because I do think that the vast majority of religious people — even here in the US — understand that literal creationism is a load of steaming garbage. That’s why I also linked to the post I made a while back clarifying that stance. I won’t tar all of religion with that particular brush.
MikeJ. I can only reserve so many sighs for the stuff you post here. The “dissent from darwin site you linked to is from the Discovery Institute, a fetid pack of known liars who couldn’t find the truth with both hands and the 99.999% of scientists who disagree with them. I wouldn’t go to a creationist physician if they were in fact the last doctor on Earth. In fact, the idea of a physician who denies evolution is almost as scary to me as the idea that there are teachers who want to brainwash children into creationism. You might want to do some more reading than just the lies from DI .
August 6th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
It’s sad but true that fundamentalism does indeed have a firm grip on republican politics… (at least nationaly)… which makes me inch ever closer to signing my name to that change of party application and send it in to the libertarian party.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Hazzel,
If you read my post carefully (which is the fundamental tenet of science) you’ll find that I never claimed that all Christians are creationists – there is a perception that:-
a) all Christians are fundamentalists, and;
b) all Christian fundamenalists are creationists.
The reason for me posting this comment, was that it seems to me, that a lot of people (ok, I’m not going to quantify what “a lot” means – just look at the number of comments on this subject on this blog) seem to link Christian fundamentalist with Christian. That is clearly incorrect.
I was only trying to defend Christianity against the (possible) perception that we are all adherents to the mistaken (in my opinion) belief that the book og Genesis is literal. Indeed, Janno’s comment stated that the absence of comment implies aquiescence to the argument. In other words, if we don’t say “no” we implicitly say “yes”. That may not be how we think but it is how we are perceived.
I was simply trying to demonstrate that we are not all “blind disciples” but actually think. Do you think that is obvious? Earlier comments suggest not.
But then, I could be mistaken. Perhaps the perceptions on either side of the Atlantic are different.
But I suspect they are not.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Dr. Phil,
I think we have had this (brief) blog discussion before.
I totally agree that you are very careful about your use of language. I apologize if you felt that this was in any way an attack on you. It was not intended to be an attack on anyone.
Sometimes, when I read blog comments, they seem to “blur” distinctions. I won’t say which one pushed me “over the edge” but I concede that it could have appeared that I was having a go at you. That was not my intention. If I have caused offence then I am sorry.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
I always find the Dissent from Darwinism list one of the siliest and at the same time most underhanded arguments to come out of creationists, and that is saying a lot. The actual statement that was signed was:
“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”"
There are actually two claims here. One is that random mutation and natural selection are not enough to account for life as we see it today. The problem with this, of course, is that you will have a hard time finding a biologist alive today who does not agree with this statement. Natural selection and random mutation are just two of many different mechanisms that are known to play a part in evolution. The creationists (sorry, IDers) like to portray these two mechanisms as the only mechanisms available, but they aren’t. In many cases they portray random mutation as the only mechanism, but that is another story entirely.
The second statement is that careful examination of evidence is required. No scientist would disagree with this for any scientific theory, fact, law, hypothesis, or model. That is one of the basic principles of science.
Additionally, the name itself is silly. No one accepts “Darwinism” anymore. Darwin’s theory was good in some respects but bad in others. No one has accepted “Darwinism” for close to a century, if not longer. Evolution, as I have stated above, has progressed a lot in the last century and a half.
So they take one statement that is one of the fundamental components of the modern theory of evolution, and take a second statement that is one of the fundamental components of all science, and then when people sign these statements they claim these people all reject evolution completely (or at least have doubts about it). And in fact many people on the list have spoken up and stated that they were tricked into signing it, they have no doubts about evolution, completely reject creationism and ID, and do not want any connection to the list anymore. Their names can still be found on the list and they are still counted as scientists who reject evolution. Further, many of the people on the list are not scientists (it also includes many engineers, doctors, and even physical therapists). And many of the scientists on the list have no background whatsoever in biology. Yet despite all of this they still were only able to get 700 signatures in 6 years. Similar statements supporting evolution and explicitly rejecting creationism and/or ID, on the other hand, easily get tens of thousands of signatures from scientists only in the life sciences in a matter of days.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Selina
Put my pedantic mind at rest, tell me where is the mixed metaphor in:
“Secondly, there is the “shock-cultureâ€. News is made from radical viewpoints. Media are more likely to carry a story like “Jesus was a woman†than “Priest affirms the Big Bangâ€. I know this is a mixed metaphor but it is used simply to illustrate how the media works.”
August 6th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Just as state support of the pseudo-science of Lysenkoism caused great harm to the study of evolution, genetics and biology in Soviet Russia, South Carolina’s financial aid to creationist pseudo education does nothing but detract and downgrade South Carolina’s and America’s scientific future.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
What the hell does this have to do with Texas.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
I spy a hungry troll. Please don’t feed him, he may well wander off.
Mike J, I hear that PZ Myers is really into debating against creationists. He would be astounded by the facts that you brought here. Why don’t you go to scienceblogs.com/pharyngula and try to enlighten him?
August 6th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Selina, nope, I didn’t see it as an attack. I just wanted to clarify. I know you’ve been around a awhile.
JD: if only I had actually made the word “Texas” a link in the blog entry so my meaning were clear.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Just keep thinking of us as the intellectual “haves”.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Fortunately in Oregon, the state constitution specifically prohibits these kind of money transfers. But for those unlucky enough to not have constitutional protection, all sorts of money can flow to religious organizations.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
To Mike J: By following your path of logic, it can also be concluded that some time in the very near future, all of the worlds population will be Elvis impersonators.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Or maybe they realized that the public school system in South Carolina is either 48th,49th, or 50th(can’t remember which) in education and realized that it’s so bad word deleted by The Bad Astronomer up that no matter how much money they give to it that it won’t matter. Maybe they realized that? Maybe they realized that there state is well 54% black, and proven over time, the majority of blacks could care less about learning and educating themselves? Why are they still so far behind all the other racism educationally? Why are the states ranked near the end in education the ones with the MOST blacks sir? I’m not a racist, I just look at the numbers? The numbers don’t lie. So maybe these politicians decided they would give some money to kids who actually want to learn. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, that’s what happened.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Just so everyone knows,
I’m from South Carolina and grew up about 20 miles from BJU. Most people HATE Bob Jones. I can’t describe how much most young South carolinians despise that college. It gives our state and the South a bad name.
Too bad the state legistlature is run by ancient white men that sit in the very deep pockets of the far right religous factions.
So to recap:
Not all south carolinians are idiots, just the ones that make the laws.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I love how all you Christian-hating Aethiests think that evolution and creationism are not compatible (even if the idea of evolution wasn’t insanely hilarious). Ever heard of the Law of Increasing Entropy? Open systems don’t build themselves up, they break down. You can’t get life from amino acids and proteins.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
To Selina Morse;
How refreshing to hear a christian approach the subject from a more reasonable, scientifically based point of view. I appreciate your posts and understood you clearly. I find christianity a fascinating study. First off, a christian must believe in the birth, life, death, and devine resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without that there is no “Christianity”. All the rest is open to interpretation I think.
Since Constantine put together that infamous eclesiastical council to decide which books to include in the bible, I consider the whole thing to be highly suspect. We don’t know what agendas these people might have had, what conversations they may have had in private, or what agreements they may have made to come to a consensus on which books to include. All we really know is what they published to the world, and the final result which is the bible which gets thumped today.
I guess my point is that even theologians shy away from literal interpretations of biblical scripture. Most of them seem to lean more toward a metaphorical approach to the whole thing. Where these fundamentalists came up with all this crap and why they seem to be coming more and more in fashion in the US is a mystery to me. Fundamentalism severely limits individual freedom of both thought and action. But isnt that kind of freedom the very root of our American Democratic Republic? Maybe I have this all wrong and my thinking is muddled, you guys tell me. I have absolutely no problem with freesom of religion right up to the point where government officials (at any level) start using “christian values” to establish law. At that point, I want to get out the tar and feathers.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
I would rather live almost anywhere in Mexico than almost anywhere in South Carolina. Believe me, I know both places well.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
great- now all we need is a fancy lawyer to sue them. Sooner the better.
Just for fun- I love the onion article that said gravity is actually the finger of god pushing things to the earth.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
I’m feeling better and better about my kids’ ability to be in the top 1% of intectuals and wage earners with every article like this I read. Fund on! Go creationists! I hope “y’all” like working late and coming in on weekends because if you don’t your jobs go to India, China, etc, etc… FOOLS!
August 6th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
I dont think just SC is doomed with people like that voting i think the whole world is DOOMED. Im gonna sing the doom song now. doom doom doomy doomy doom. lol
August 6th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
what’s the difference between this and the many other cases of church and state all over the country regarding public funding going to religious education?
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/15/e2/e2.pdf
That pdf isn’t exactly new news…but it still shows where other states have made amendments to laws so students can go to private, religious schools on the state’s dollar.
“The paper … covers current court cases in Wisconsin, Ohio, Vermont, Maine, Arizona, and other states.”
Those are hardly southern states.
I’m sure I could find other more recent cases. You’re just making a big deal out of South Carolina when it’s something that is happening all over the country.
I will say I live in SC, and as someone said before, we generally don’t like BJU. I don’t agree with them getting public funding, but SC in general is a great state. If it sucks so bad, why do you northerners with your lame accents keep moving down here??
August 6th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Oh, Matt, you got us! We *totally* forgot about the second law of thermodynamics. We give up. Tell all your creationist friends that this argument has confounded us, and we’ll be quiet from now on.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Come on… anyone bad-mouthing SC needs to look at EVERYWHERE… As in, there are idiots (and idiot lawmakers) everywhere. I mean, in 2000 48% of every voting American voted for GW/Dick. And then knowingly re-elected them in 2004 by an even bigger margin (51% – WTF?). If we judged people by their majority voters and the politicians they elect, then pretty much every red state (i.e., most of the USA) would need to be sawed off… SC definitely does not have a monopoly of right-wing crazies.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
To Selina Morse:
“6 days was needed from Big Bang to Dawins”
I would like the think thats true but in the bible and Darwin disagree.
Day 5: Creation of sea animals and birds.
Day 6: Creation of the land animals.
Birds before land animals? This is not possible. The very first birds were land animals jumping out of trees. wiki it
But I cant say that I have seen this so you win.
christianity is about jesus. Its not about god created the world in 6 days or not.
Mainstream Christianity Forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 6th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
no wonder so many of these comments are so f’d up….only let the ones you like through, moderator?
August 6th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Figures, South Carolina was the first state to succeed from the Union. And gosh darnit, they had almost done it previously decades before the Civil War during the Nullification Crisis.
You almost want to let them found their own principality of stupidity.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
hater, nice try… OK, it wasn’t a nice try, it was mean spirited and small. But I’ll answer nonetheless: I don’t moderate comments. The spam filter gets a lot, and if it isn’t sure it throws comments into a queue which I check periodically.
It’s probably a bad idea to throw around accusations based on supposition to a scientist who prefers facts. Facts tend to stick around while suppositions slink off somewhere and die.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Phil,
Thanks for the insight. I would venture to say that most of us living in SC aren’t aware of this new stance of our government, at least not those of us in Columbia. This is certainly an unfortunate development, especially since almost all of the public schools in this state are still yearly increasing tuition. As a citizen I would like to say that BJU is an embarrassing, but still unfortunate, reflection on the majority of our population.
But take heart, not ALL of us are crazy. There are still some who believe in good science and good logic.
Thanks again for the enlightenment.
August 6th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
please don’t cut SC off from the states, i live there and that would just plain suck. I give you permission to surgically remove all state and county legislative organizations, and bob jones university. By the way, i met a girl from bob jones last semester at greenville technical college… trust me, they need the money more than the public schools do.
August 6th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Oh and by the way, Bob Jones accepted interracial couples back in 2000 after a radio station caused a big fuss by having an interracial couple, who were students there, walk across the lawn holding hands. The university wanted to kick them out until the radio station claimed that it was done for the radio station. I HATE BJU, and i often consider rousing armed mobs to burn the campus down. Honestly, i feel that Neither my anger, nor your article, will do much to change the corrupt politicians or the nut-factory style of education BJU promotes and performs. Seriously, please don’t try to smear SC with things like this, especially when some facts stated are fallacious.
August 6th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Richard Wolford: Don’t know if you’re already aware of this, but you’re on to something there, by dating “across the colour line”. And if you proceed to marry a girl of a different race to yours, your children are likely to be healthier and more resistant to disease than either parent was as a child.
Look up “Hybrid Vigour” for why.
They’re also likely to be just plain beautiful. Look at Halle Berry. In fact, if one day you do have a mixed-race girl, buy a shotgun as soon as possible. That will give you time to practice your aim at boy-sized targets before she becomes a teen…
August 6th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
“I love how all you Christian-hating Aethiests think that evolution and creationism are not compatible (even if the idea of evolution wasn’t insanely hilarious). Ever heard of the Law of Increasing Entropy? Open systems don’t build themselves up, they break down. You can’t get life from amino acids and proteins.”
Dear Matt,
For the love of God and all that is holy…
BUY… A… SCIENCE… TEXT.
Please realize that at this point a vast majority of the Christian intellectual community believe in evolutionary theory in the U.S. today. If you are going to spout off Creation Science Institute hogwash, please don’t do it on a website frequented almost exclusively by actual, God’s-truth, labcoat-wearing, multiple-doctorate SCIENTISTS. They WILL catch you, and that just hurts your cause.
You’re making Christians that can assimilate into civilized society look bad. It’s hard enough making a well-reasoned, articulate argument for a deistic universe in the face of today’s fundamentalist atmosphere without comments like that dragging us all down a peg. Get with the 21st century, friend.
Your brother in Christ,
Bunsen
August 6th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Wow, for a site that prides itself on scepticism, very few of you seem, well, sceptical.
I’m not one of you BA geniuses, so rather than confidently know what you all seem to know in your hearts is true, I actually had to go read the article.
In a nutshell, what the SC legislature did is this: They added Bob Jones university to the list of universities (which already included other small, private [and presumably religious] schools) to the list of schools that low income students can receive aid for attending.
SHOCKING!!!
Anyone with sixth grade reading skills should be able to discern that the enlighted reporter’s lede, “State lawmakers shot down a request for extra financial help for low-income students who will attend South Carolina’s public colleges and universities next year,” is a total non-sequitur. Nothing was taken away from low-income students. To the contrary — in the big picture, funds were added.
Key graph:
“The commission can give about 800 low-income Bob Jones University students $3,200 next year. That’s the same amount most other needy private school students will receive.”
Sure, you can argue the decision on accreditation grounds. But it’s not nearly as sexy as the blog author seems to want you to believe. Get a grip.
– Alaska Jack
August 7th, 2007 at 12:45 am
First, let’s understand ONE MAJOR THING: The seperation of church and state. The rule was made to seperate the Government from making ANY RULE OR JUDGEMENT concerning the FREEDOMS of that said faith. It was to remove themselves from the type of medieval form of government that those persecuted CHRISTIANS came from out of Europe. The rule is not meant to bar the government from financially helping a religious group if a request is made for assistance. We The People have the right and means to help anyone we want. The Government has NO RIGHT to bar the religious freedoms of a said religious group.
That means if a Muslim needs to pray at a certain time in the day, then he must be allowed to pray. This means if a Jew needs to attend Passover, then he MUST be allowed to do so! If the government makes a rule/law stating in the simplest of terms that the Jew or Muslim can not do these things then THAT IS A VIOLATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. It is not the seperation FROM church and state, but OF church and state.
Read your history. Understand the founders plight. Stop listening to all of these ULTRA LIBERAL SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVES
August 7th, 2007 at 3:03 am
We had the Emmanuel colleges funded by Reg Vardy, a self confessed creationist, but the UK education authorities do not allow creationism to be taught in science classes so that seems to be the closest to “creationism” associated a school in the UK.
Creationism is allowed to be taught in something called RE or humanities as what people believe. Even Dawkins said, it could be seen as a sub branch of Anthropology. (Sorry if this is out of context but I do half remember him on a TV show saying that). I have said before if the US adopted this approach, then Creationists would have creationism mentioned in schools and science teachers would not be victimised.
Incidentally in one of our Bible classes I did mention the experience of ID as how NOT to do things. The ID proponents came across as being more concerned with winning arguments than winning souls. Plus we don’t need ID when we have the atheist-derived Anthropic Principle, (nicely alluded to but not mentioned by name in an edition of AstronomyCast – the one about numbers but I digress)
Getting back to my main observation, we have creationists here in the UK, but none of the ranchor and bitter fights as you do across the pond. I am not aware of opposition to children being taught about evolution in UK schools. Could the US learn some lessons from how we do things across the pond.
BTW Phil when you finish your book, will you be able to come over to Newcastle for a book signing tour
August 7th, 2007 at 3:40 am
Selina: I am also from the UK, and lest you forget, or perhaps didn’t know, we have only just fought a campaign by the truth in science mob (a rather ironic and deliberately deceitful name for the UK equivalent of the Discovery Institute) trying to sneak IDiotism (creationism by any other name) into the secondary school science curriculum by sending out DVDs promoting IDiotism to all secondary schools as a science teaching aid. Fortunately, after a short campaign, this was raised in both houses of parliament leading to an affirmation by the appropriate ministers that IDiotism had no place in the UK science curriculum and that the review being done this summer would reinforce that position.
Thus, while the UK is not as bad as the US it is no time to sit on our laurels or be complacent for it is worth noting we have our share of IDiots schools. Such as Emmanuel College Gateshead, funded by the Vardy Foundation who plan to open more of them. For much of this we have the present government’s support for faith based schools to thank. Similarly, when we do tend to hear from the religious in the UK, it is often when they get hot and bothered, with the help of some of our press such as the Daily Mail, over the introduction of the recent law banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. I.e. such as the fuss about Catholic adoption agencies, which are funded in large part by public money, not the church, wishing to be able to continue to discriminate against gay adopters. So even in the UK, the fundies are often the ones getting the headlines while the ‘moderate’ xtian is rarely heard from. Or when they are heard, they are generally complaining about the nasty atheists like Richard Dawkins or similar, instead of taking to task those doing real damage to their faith and how it is perceived by others.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:07 am
[...] – I’ve added the digg link to Dr. BA’s blog post about this, so digg it up if you haven’t [...]
August 7th, 2007 at 5:15 am
Hey, Mike J
No-one cares about your “Dissenters from Darwinism.” Ever notice why anyone who has a problem with evolution always has a religious agenda? And they admit they are not even advocating a replacement theory. Why do you think that is? Besides, Project Steve is beating them by a mile – you’re only allowed to be on that list if you are called STEVE. And perhaps you could also ask why your super-smart buddies at ICR have produced NO peer reviewed papers in Creation “research”. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. ZILCH. NADA. NOTHING. NOWT. NOT A GODDARN THING. IN 100 YEARS. Any reason why? Lemme guess, the evil Darwinist conspiracy is at work? And why is it that BJU is getting PUBLIC funding in the USA when it ain’t allowed? Do your fellow Christians a favour and STOP MAKING CHRISTIANS LOOK LIKE FRUITLOOPS!
Selina Morse:
“I live in the UK and we don’t have the same forms of fundamentalism that you seem to have in the USA. We don’t have schools teaching us that the Grand Canyon is only 6000 years old.”
Unfortunately, we do have the Vardy school up near Newcastle. Thankfully, fundies are in the minority here in the UK. Also thankfully, ID has been prohibited from the science curriculum.
Matt
Darn, somebody got their first. Anyway, doesn’t it ever occur to you that all these so called “problems” you fundies like to point out (for the past 40 odd years) that the scientists would have figured them out? What makes you smarter?
question:
“I’m sure I could find other more recent cases. You’re just making a big deal out of South Carolina when it’s something that is happening all over the country.”
True, which is why everyone in their own areas should pipe up and make a fuss, so this kind of stuff gets noticed. That happened relatively recently in Ohio, and the fundies lost that one. Always good news.
Alaska Jack:
Public funds are going to a school which teaches creationism. That is only okay if they teach all about every other religion along with it. But what’s the bet that doesn’t happen? Get a clue. If the school is private, it should fund itself. Might be hard, but tuff nuggies. They could always give Howie Ahmanson a call, if they’re desparate. (shrug)
Kris:
“The rule is not meant to bar the government from financially helping a religious group if a request is made for assistance. We The People have the right and means to help anyone we want. The Government has NO RIGHT to bar the religious freedoms of a said religious group.”
These aren’t a bunch of needy homeless people who happen to be religious. It is a SCHOOL. It should either STOP teaching creationism OR have non-biased lessons teaching about EVERY OTHER religion, otherwise it violates the separation of church and state. NO-ONE is stopping ANYONE from practicing their religion.
“Read your history. Understand the founders plight. Stop listening to all of these ULTRA LIBERAL SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVES”
Please ease off the old fundie martyr complex about “persecuted Christians” and give it a rest. We’ve heard it all before. Wanna read some history? Try here about half way down:
http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=46b8515ac8f73628;act=ST;f=14;t=4619;st=420
John Phillips:
“trying to sneak IDiotism (creationism by any other name) into the secondary school science curriculum by sending out DVDs promoting IDiotism to all secondary schools as a science teaching aid.”
It should also be noted that the ID packs sent to schools had the DI’s name on them. So they got them from Seattle. Ah, and I see you got their first about the Gateshead college. Good stuff.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:32 am
Genesis, ch.2 v.3a:
And on the eighth day, God gave man and woman a brain (each) and said, “Use them!”
…db…
Unfortunately, this verse has been omitted from most versions of ‘the good book.’
::sigh::
–
August 7th, 2007 at 5:41 am
Selina Morse said:
“Most people who are Christian know full well that archbisop Usher’s dating of the creation of the universe as being 4004 B.C. to be bunkum in the light of scientific discoveries.”
Not just scientific discoveries, Selina.
Bishop Ussher was the first person to “solve” the problem of the gap between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He had agents looking all over the eastern Mediterranean countries looking for documents that might help. One of these found some Bablyonian records that mentioned the last king in the OT, and the Roman occupation of Palestine / Judea, with an unbroken chronicle between. Thus, he was able to complete the calculation that had foxed so many scholars before him.
However, shortly after he published this work and was widely acclaimed for it, records were discovered by Western travellers visiting China that formed an unbroken record to before 4004BC.
There is no reason to take the Babylonian records as being more valid than the Chinese ones. Yet Bishop Ussher did just that, dismissing the Chinese records as erroneous or invented.
Thus, before any scientific evidence was available to provide a clearer answer, there was a genuine challenge to Ussher’s work. This challenge came from a source that was equivalent to one of the sources Ussher had used to arrive at his chronology in the first place.
August 7th, 2007 at 6:37 am
John and Darth,
Didn’t know about the Gateshead college – thanks for the info. And you are right that religion only seems to make headlines for all the wrong reasons.
Nigel,
Yes I concur with you on the Usher error – I was simply trying to highlight that science has proven that a literal tranlation of the Bible cannot be correct. If the evidence shows rocks to be millions of years old but a book suggests it’s only thousands of years old then either:-
a) The world is young – God just made old rocks to confuse us! That would seem to be deceitful; certainly not the actions of a God of truth and love, or;
b) The text is not literal truth but metaphor, allegory and parable. This seems far more likely to me.
Also, we need to be aware that what the majority of people in the western world read is a translation and has therefore been shaped by the understanding (and politics) of those who actually translated the Arabic, Hebrew and Greek originals. For example, Jerry’s observation that birds did not come before land animals appears to contradict days 5 and 6 in Genesis. On examination, though, the original word we have translated in modern bibles as “birds” is used elsewhere in the Bible as “flying creatures”, i.e. insects. On each other use of this particular phrase, it is clear that insects (usually locusts) are being referred to. Read in that context, days 5 and 6 do agree with the evolutionary path. The translator, being fallible, made a mistake.
Ok. I’ve said far too much on this. On with the astronomy!
August 7th, 2007 at 6:49 am
And here I am about to move _back_ to South Carolina… *sigh*
Ah, well. Can’t be helped. And having spent three years in Tennessee, I can’t tell which state is worse off where fundamentalism is concerned.
August 7th, 2007 at 7:17 am
In response to the poster that commented on SC’s educational rank: I ask you to please take this into account. South Carolina is the poorest state after Mississippi and Alabama. Nearly half of everyone living in this state is living in poverty. I think that statistic, as opposed to race, would better explain the reasons why we are almost last in education. Also, another scary statistic: Despite our poor education, only a little over half of all entering high school freshmen end up graduating. Until this state can address poverty, and educate people about the importance of a high school or college diploma, we’ll continue to be among the worst.
August 7th, 2007 at 7:32 am
Want to hear something funny?
We used to know a guy who went to BJU in the 70’s. He was Hispanic, and when he got there, they didn’t know what to do with him, as they only recognized two races, black and white (sort of like their thinking). So they finally asked him which one he wanted to be.
He decided white, and from that point on, he could date only white girls, and ended up marrying one of his classmates.
Supposedly at one point BJU filed a request with the federal government for a permit to buy machine guns, and were turned down due to how close Bob Jones was with Ian Paisley in Northern Ireland.
Oh yeah, and their football mascot? The Fightin’ Baby Jesus.
Okay, I made that last one up.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:29 am
“As far as secession goes, I think we should just divide the nation along the Mason-Dixon line and let the Bible Belt ignoramuses go their own way. The rest of us would be better off.”
Hey now, don’t trap those of us a few miles to the south of the line in that mess. Stick with the Deep South.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:30 am
“# jennion 07 Aug 2007 at 7:17 am
In response to the poster that commented on SC’s educational rank: I ask you to please take this into account. South Carolina is the poorest state after Mississippi and Alabama. Nearly half of everyone living in this state is living in poverty. I think that statistic, as opposed to race, would better explain the reasons why we are almost last in education. Also, another scary statistic: Despite our poor education, only a little over half of all entering high school freshmen end up graduating. Until this state can address poverty, and educate people about the importance of a high school or college diploma, we’ll continue to be among the worst.
”
Don’t you people get it? It’s not about damn poverty, It’s about not wanting to learn and educate yourself. It’s not COOL to be smart. It’s cool to wear baggy pants and big gold chains and speak ebonics.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:36 am
Thanks for the Hat Tip BA. I am proudly NSFW (although it’s mostly for the occasional curse word not for anything too fun).
Unfortunately this is my home state acting like this. But it’s par for the course down here. He have school board meetings opening with prayer here in Charleston now because of Gulliani’s head of his SC campaign, A. Ravenell JR. (only recently replacing his now indicted on cocaine charges son as head of the campaign) punched it through.
We have people here more concerned with the fact B.C. was taken out of the paper than the myriad of important issues.
We had our own little push for ID last year by the Idiot Mike Fair (same one who pushed the funding bill through),
I love SC, but some of its inhabitants are morons, state legislature included. It reflects poorly on the large number of rational intelligent people here in the state.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Quite an enjoyable thread this today! A “United” States is a bit of an illusion. This great granfalloon on this side of the pond can be quite bizarre sometimes.
August 7th, 2007 at 9:10 am
According to the Morehead Planetarium website, famous astronomer Harlow Shapley once said Carolinians were… “the most astronomically ignorant people in all America.” Which was a kick in the pants that helped provoke the planetarium’s endowment.
August 7th, 2007 at 9:34 am
I’m a BJU grad student. There really are some nice people at BJU. Some of them smile and talk politely. =) Some of them give hundreds of hours of their time to the minority children they supposedly hate despite being very busy undergraduates.
Please come and visit us. I mean it.
Contact me and I’ll even put you up for a night if I can.
mlwj
mikelwood@allmail.net
August 7th, 2007 at 10:07 am
[...] of The Wisdom Of A Distracted Mind, in a comment on this article on the Bad Astronomy [...]
August 7th, 2007 at 10:28 am
mlwj, BJU is supposed to be an educational institution. Whether people are nice or do community service says nothing about what they are being taught. It says nothing about the opinions or policies of those in charge of the “university”. I find it telling that the positive things you say about BJU are all about how nice the people are and nothing about the education they are receiving (or aren’t).
August 7th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Post after post after post, and only a single one of you has anything to say about me pointing out that the original blog post, the one that started all this clamor, was a bunch of baloney?
And that one was wrong!
Darth Robo, you said:
“Public funds are going to a school which teaches creationism. That is only okay if they teach all about every other religion along with it. But what’s the bet that doesn’t happen? Get a clue. If the school is private, it should fund itself.”
The “get a clue” thing is pretty ironic. Darth, you are aware, right, that all kinds of public money currently goes to schools that teach particular religious beliefs? See here’s the thing, and I’ll try to explain this using simple terms: If the government tells students “We’ll give you money to attend school A, but not money to attend school B, because school B teaches religion,” that’s a little something called DISCRIMINATION AGAINST RELIGION, which our government is forbidden to do.
Notre Dame. Boston College. Gonzaga. Southern Methodist University. etc. etc. etc. You are aware, right, that you can take out a federal student loan or Pell Grant and use it to attend one of these institutions?
Anyway, I encourage anyone in a mood for self-reflection to go back and read again through all the comments in this thread. In light of the facts I’ve pointed out (which anyone with a semi-skeptical mind and sixth grade reading skills could have figured out for themselves), don’t most of the commenters on this thread look pretty silly?
– Alaska Jack
August 7th, 2007 at 10:45 am
I’m not sure anyone said anything about the students supposedly hating minorities and anyone who does would need to have the evidence. The fact is however, that the school had a previous policy banning interracial dating.
I’m sure you and your BJU friends are all super nice people, but one’s disposition has absolutely zero to do with the validity of their argument or the quality of their education.
August 7th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Alaska Jack, while it is true that is was given to private schools, BJU was the only new Private U added, period. On top of that the sponsors of the bill, Mike Fair who recently tried to push ID Creationism through the SC public schools and Darryl Jackson a pastor and sponsor of other religious related bills, shows the intent. By only sponsoring BJU as an addition to the private schools and by not giving any any additional to public schools this is a direct support of BJU.
BJU refused to go through the accreditation process that other schools go through because it knows that it can not pass. It teaches junk science and religion in place of well established science standards. By taking that money away from a kid that would like to go to a school that offers a good education and only giving additional money to private schools and only sponsoring BJU as the single new school it is quite obvious the reasoning here. This will force some prospective students to have to make the choice between a bad education and no education.
August 7th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Salina Morse said: “teaching us that the Grand Canyon is only 6000 years old”
To be completely pedantic, the Grand Canyon is only 4000-ish years old, because it wasn’t created until after the great flood, in the days of Peleig (no idea how to spell that) when god divided the continents. At least, that’s the story I heard back in Sunday school.
Alaska Jack: “the enlighted reporter’s lede. . . is a total non-sequitur”
I disagree. First, that statement wasn’t derived from any argument presented in the article, so the pedant in me says in can’t be a non-sequitur. Second (I assume you meant the lede is irrelevant), it is very much to the point: the South Carolina legislature is denying some funds while allowing others. It doesn’t matter that they weren’t the exact same funds, because some people still lost out on an opportunity while others gained. Specific to the problem is that the people who lost out are more deserving than the people who won.
As an aside, is there a good synonym for “pedant” or “pedantic”? I find myself using the words quite a bit and would like to mix it up some.
August 7th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
# matton 06 Aug 2007 at 8:54 pm
I love how all you Christian-hating Aethiests think that evolution and creationism are not compatible (even if the idea of evolution wasn’t insanely hilarious). Ever heard of the Law of Increasing Entropy? Open systems don’t build themselves up, they break down. You can’t get life from amino acids and proteins.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh wait, you were serious. Let me laugh louder.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
August 7th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Stuart:
Yup, married a girl who is half-Korean and we have a son now, 22 months, so he’s a quarter I guess, assuming I’m 100% pale.
Of course, it wasn’t the genetic benefits that kept me going across the various racial lines
August 7th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
MichaelS
I assume you are being humourous (as opposed to sarcastic), but, if you are going to be pedantic, at least spell my name right. It’s Selina, not Salina.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Rev. BigDumbChimp said:
> By taking that money away from a kid that would like to go to a school that offers a good education and only giving additional money to private schools and only sponsoring BJU as the single new school it is quite obvious the reasoning here. This will force some prospective students to have to make the choice between a bad education and no education.
Get real. They did not take money away from any students. They added funds to cover the inclusion of a new school to the list qualified for funding. They are not forcing any students to choose Bob Jones University. What they are doing is making it possible for a student (or student’s parents) who wishes for a bad education to get a bad education, vs having to choose between a good education and no education.
Alaska Jack, while I agree with you there has been plenty of hyperbole and a bit of distortion by commenters here, the article is not wrong. What it points out is that the State Legislature has added a sectarian religious private school to the list of schools qualified for state funding by creating a loophole around accreditation, and they provided additional funds to cover the additional school funding rather than raiding other schools. However, they did this rather than supply that funding to the pool available to any other school, especially public schools – schools that are not sectarian, do not have a religious agenda, and especially schools that are accredited. If their concern were for the education of financially challenged students, they would have put the money into the pot for accredited schools, and preferrably the public ones. Why the public ones? Because private colleges typically cost 3 to 5 times the cost of public colleges. That means the same pool of money could be spread to cover more students with some effective help.
TransfixionBK, ignorance is not confined to any particular ethnicity. Not being cool to be smart has been around for decades and applies equally well to suburban kids from middle and upperclass families. Doesn’t matter the neighborhood or skin color, the attire bears striking similarities.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Irishman:
I believe Chris Rock said it best in his comedy act: people love to just “keep it real…real dumb”. You’re right, it transcends any race, religion, nationality, or any other affiliation you can name. Dumb is dumb, and it is amazing at the striking similarity between dress. My very good friend of many years is earning his doctorate in music; his sister is a high school drop out with two kids, no job, and has been arrested for drugs and other crimes. Same parents, same school, same home, but drastically different outcomes. She bears resemblance to those of lesser intellectual capacity whereas he does not.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
I’m from South Carolina and actually I was born and raised in the same town Bob Jones University is located (Greenville), and there’s a few things that you have understand about the south, not just SC.
First of all, we have a steady flow of Christian Northerners who have surged into the surrounding area over the past decade or so. Simpsonville, Fountain Inn, and Greer (all surrounding the heart of Greenville) have become over run here lately, turning backroads into huge commercial marketplaces; complete with traffic problems. Ask many of the “Yankees” why they come here and they won’t be hesistant to say that it is because it’s “more religious down here”… so don’t think that it is just dumb hick Carolinians that are behind the fiasco.
Bob Jones University is a very conservative school and you can attend (as most who attend do) from elemetary all the way to the College level, without ever being affected by the outside world. The religious views expressed by the college are not very different from the views of “Church of God”. While you may believe that Bob Jones getting funding from the state level is absolutely absurd, take into account that it is not only South Carolinians that attend BJU. In fact, I believe that for an unacredited private school, BJU does quite well in bringing budding, albeit sheltered, young Christians from all over our great nation. While I agree with you that BJU is not the well oiled education machine that we all wish for our citizens, you have to admit that its a private school that does very well for bringing in tourists and consumers alike. BJU’s art collection is amoung the best in the world (all of it religious paintings). So, really, it makes since for the state to make sure that BJU stays open and healthy. Which is actually why both Repubs and Democrats were behind the bill.
I’m sure you meant well with your article, but don’t just bash the South because most of my fellow citizens don’t agree with your point of view. Most things in South Carolina are done based on tradition, as in much of the world, so you should look closer at the surrounding culture before judging our intellect based on a single point.
Yes, there is corruption in SC, but I doubt you will find less corruption in your state if you actually care to look…
Stephen
P.S. Our state motto is actually “While I breathe, I hope”, which I think is a good motto for the South’s views on Evolution. Christians don’t believe in God because they are dumb, they believe in Him because He gives them hope. The south is full of stubborn people and I truly believe that while these people are alive they will not abandon their hope (as they see it) just so you can put your mind at ease knowing that everone believes in the same exact thing.
P.P.S. And no I don’t imagine that my state would fund an Islamic private school, mainly because they are very far and few between. We have to have enough Islamic believers in SC before we actually have a school to fund.
August 7th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
ok, let’s face it – neither political party has a monopoly on stupidity. Granted, the repulicans tend to favor the religious idiocy more than the democrats.. but then, republicans are less likely to worry over whether a colony of prairie dogs are currently residing where somebody wants to build.
NEITHER party pays much (if any) attention to its constituents
As for the nature/nurture game – I’m pretty much on the nature side of the fence. I have two boys (whom I unbiasedly consider brilliant) – their personalities are night and day to each other, as are their interests. Of course, being boys, they could do better in school – but even there, their differences are apparent. My wifeoid and I have done our best to treat them identically (the younger doesn’t get to do things at an earlier age than his brother, for instance). Still, the older is interested in sports and helping people, the younger is interested in technology and making things…but both of them recogise foolishness when they see it.
finally, this story makes me think we fought the Civil War for the wrong reasons – instead of states rights, it should have been over the ability of the majority of states to eject another from the union for being stupid.
August 7th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Wow… I never realized I went through life, as an atheist, without purpose or hope CSA. I mean, silly me, here I thought I had a purpose to my life – namely being a decent human, raising and loving my family, working for the good of my communtiy – but apparently I was all wrong! Thanks for opening my eyes! Also, clearly I have no hope so I must sit around all day moping and crying… once again, silly me! I thought I had hope for leaving the world my son finds a slightly better place than I found it. I thought I had hope that he would be able to see our world and universe for the amazing place that it is without having to couch that in superstition and fear! I even have hope that the Packers will make the Super-Bowl this year (ok, that’s an empty hope) but hey, clearly you are right and know how atheists feel. I mean, it’s not like you’ve never been one… wait, you haven’t? But you seemed so sure in your knowledge! Well, your assumptions anyhow. On the other hand, I have been a Christian before – was for the first 20 years of my life actually. So, I think I have a good idea where you are coming from… and it is a place of darkness, full of demons in the closet and ignorance in the hallway.
I thank you for your prayers, it’s a nice gesture if horribly misguided, but I would encourage you to donate that time spent praying for us poor atheists to something worthwhile to your community – personally I’m fond of Habitat for Humanity… but that’s probably just because my faulty sense of purpose says it’s a program that leaves communities better than it found them and actually helps people in a real and tangible way. But hey, I’m just an atheist… what would I know.
By the way… I sincerely hope that your CSA tag doesn’t reflect your views on humanity. After all, one of the central tenets of the CSA was to be allowed to continue slavery… which is a disntinctly non-christian thing to do.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
A fundamentalist would not know what “purpose” was if it bit them in the a**
August 7th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
To CSA,
as an atheist i am quite offended by your comment that I am going through life without purpose or hope. I am not. Nor was I peticularily bitter – untill I read your post that is.
I’ll be praying for you to find some semlence of sence a.s.a.p.
August 7th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
My understanding is South Carolina was founded and populated mostly by Slave masters from the west Indies. Making it the most slave state of all. From this you get a unique and uncompromising state of fundamentalist religion. Incidentally, my hat is off to anyone who could live under such a strict academic regimen, and as was suggested earlier many of the alums are nice decent people. In my opinion even the hicky name “Bob Jones” suggests a second rate education. Don’t look for cutting edge biological research from the institute, they are too busy trying to prove the Bible.
August 7th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
To CSA: I don’t take offence to your remark about living a pointless life. However I do feel sorry for you, living in your little box of a world where you can’t imagine people with a different look upon the universe can be happy, this is truly the root of all evil. If you don’t believe me, just sit down for a few minutes and reflect on it, that’s what some of us do when religious people would pray.
August 8th, 2007 at 5:43 am
Has South Carolina ever really had a firm separation of church and state?
August 8th, 2007 at 5:55 am
“continue slavery… which is a disntinctly non-christian thing to do.”
Hmmm, I thought the Bible actually advocated it in some parts. But anyway…
Hey CSA, you may or may not be right about that Federal/State Constitution thing. Look what I found.
“Two sections of the South Carolina Constitution effectively establish a religious test that most constitutional lawyers believe to be unconstitutional under the United States Constitution. Most believe that Article Six of the United States Constitution bans such qualifications when it states, “no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” These sections are:
Article VI, SECTION 2. Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office.
No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.
Article XVII SECTION 4. Supreme Being.
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.
The Tennessee State Constitution contains this clause in very similar wording in Section 2 of Article 9.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina_Constitution
Since Creationism has been ruled illegal to teach in public schools, the fact that BJU does teach it and is getting public funding… sounds dodgy to me. Maybe others here with a better legal understanding than I have could comment.
In the meantime, I’d like to point out to ALL fundies out there that evolution (or any other science for that matter) says nothing about the validity of either religion or atheism. There is nothing wrong with being religious AND accepting evolution. Oh, and CSA, not everyone here are atheists. But hey, carry on whining about those “evil liberal commie atheist unAmerican evolutionist Darwinists” if it makes ya feel better. Few here will take you very seriously. Oh, and this was a classic:
“To all the atheists: It must really suck to go through life without purpose or hope. I guess thats why y’all are so bitter about everything. Or maybe thats why y’all get so giddy when you think you found life out there in space. You’ll be pleased to know you can find it right here on Earth.”
For some reason, I’m reminded of Monty Python:
“And let’s hope there’s intelligent life somewhere up in space, ‘cos there’s bugger all down here on Earth!”
‘Cuz fundies give humanity a bad name.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:08 am
CSA, once again you take it to far: “I would rather have been a “slave†(unpaid fed, sheltered, and educated worker) than starve and die in Africa”. What do you know of the conditions in Africa? And even if the kidnapped africans were starving, what right did the slavers have to take people from thier homes and families?
August 8th, 2007 at 8:26 am
>IMO, I would rather have been a “slave†(unpaid fed, sheltered, and >educated worker) than starve and die in Africa.
That’s your argument? Blacks were starving and dying in Africa, and slavers took them in and fed and educated them? Man, someone should extend that kind of benevolence to you.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:51 am
CSA, regardless of the conditions of living in the third world, if you think slavery was a good thing, you are truly nuts. Hundreds of years ago, my ancestors were either slavekeepers or slaves. In hindsight, it would be easy to say, “Glad that happened, otherwise I wouldn’t be here.” Doesn’t mean I would condone slavery.
“Doing the things you described is a great way to spend your human life and you should be proud of that, but make sure your wonderful soul will live on as well.”
Whether or not anyone’s soul will live on is not for YOU to say. That’s between God and the individual. Or did you become his official spokesperson? If you’re here to preach, then preach away, but don’t be surprised if many here just shrug and say “whatever”. But if you’re gonna whine about atheists or anyone else who doesn’t agree with your religious opinions, just remember, that your opinions aren’t any better than anyone else’s. And people are free to tell ya to get lost if you spout off some crap that annoys them. (shrug)
August 8th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Irishman, “Get real”? mm ok
They didn’t add equal funding for the public schools. Not equal. The additional funds can only support so many more students. If not adding the equal funding to the other option, then they are limiting the choice of some students.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:15 am
CSA… Oooo! My Soul is it? Well, seeing as how a soul has never been measured, seen, smelled tasted or in any other way been proven to exist… and has in fact failed to be proven to exist in at least several hundred experiments… I’ll take my chances. How exactly does a non-corporeal (and fictitious as far I can tell) item have purpose and hope anyhow? It’s kind of like saying a rock has purpose.
Heck, I think I’ll stick to being a good person now and not worry about what may come after I die (decomposition I suppose – at least until the crematorium gets done with me!). I mean really, if I actually have to swear I believe in some deity – a supposed creator of our world and thus, by extension, the very idea of doing good works and taking care of that creation – and the good I do in life has no impact whatsoever if I don’t swear this belief… well, let’s just say I don’t like petulant creators any more than I like petulant bosses, children, or pets. I don’t think I’d get along to well with a creator like that and frankly, I choose not to associate with folks like that in life so I think I’ll choose not do so in death as well.
As for your comments regarding slavery… wow. Just… wow. Also, I said nothing about the civil war, I said nothing about Lincoln, I said nothing about the emancipation proclomation. What I said was that one of the tenets of the CSA was the continuation of slavery. Which it was. In fact it was the driving item – the proverbial straw if you will that lead to the seccesion in the first place. If you want to be specific it was a Republican push to outlaw slavery at the federal level that pushed things over the edge. So nice straw man there.
August 8th, 2007 at 11:17 am
“I never said I condoned slavery. I said IMO (as in me personally), I would rather have been a “slave†(unpaid fed, sheltered, and educated worker) than starve and die in Africa.”
Well that’s you. Many people were quite happy where they were and weren’t going hungry – until they were taken as slaves.
“And yes, being a Christian makes me God’s spokesman since part of my salvation depends upon letting others know of Jesus.”
I guess that makes you important then, huh? I know Christians who would disagree. Who is more right? My point is that your opinions are no better than anyone else’s.
“If you want to shrug me off then fine, but I’ll rest better knowing I’ve done my duty.”
Well, glad you feel better. (shrug)
“Who’s whining? I thought blogs were for debating….. ”
Or even just talking. But you said:
“To all the atheists: It must really suck to go through life without purpose or hope. I guess thats why y’all are so bitter about everything. Or maybe thats why y’all get so giddy when you think you found life out there in space. You’ll be pleased to know you can find it right here on Earth.
I’ll be praying for ya’ll to find your Savior in Jesus Christ.”
Would sound like (annoying) whining to those who don’t share your opinions. Of course those who do would probably think “Ooh, what a nice Christian braving those Godless atheists, trying to save their poor misguided souls.” You martyr you. But keep praying if it makes ya feel better.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
CSA: are you kidding about dark matter? Try searching for that term on this very blog. We have a lot of evidence for it. Sounds like you are the one arguing from ignorance here.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Really? Has it been “measured, seen, smelled, tasted or in any other way been proven to exist?”
Many people who have seen ghosts or have had an experience with the supernatural (something I figured y’all would believe in) would say that they’ve seen seen and smelled spirits (souls).
I submit that there is more evidence of a soul than there is for dark matter.
August 8th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
CSA, you may submit all you want, but without evidence, you are wrong.
Or did you not do the simple task of searching this blog for the words “Dark matter”?
August 8th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“So even though we cannot see DM directly, we can see its effects.”
Well now there’s a funny parallel. I cannot see God directly but I see His effect on my life and those who believe in Him. So how is my evidence any worse than yours?
But at least I’ll see Him one day and, well, you’ll probably be left in the dark matter. Though I hope not.
August 8th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
“Well now there’s a funny parallel. I cannot see God directly but I see His effect on my life and those who believe in Him. So how is my evidence any worse than yours?”
Because you do not have to believe in dark matter to see its effects. The effects can be measured, predictions can be made based off them, and these prediction are verified.
The effects of God are funny in that they can only be perceived by those who already believe in him (or her or it or them). These effects cannot be measured. There are few falsifiable predictions, and those that have been made have all been falsified (look at the studies on the effects, or lack thereof, of prayer for an example).
That is why your evidence is worse. It can only be found by people who think it will be found, it requires belief. Evidence for dark matter, however, can be found by anyone whether they believe in it or not. As Philip K. Dick said, “reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it”. The evidence for dark matter does not go away. The evidence for God does.
August 8th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
“measured, seen, smelled, tasted or in any other way been proven to exist?â€
Ahh yes, I thought those words of mine might come back. Of course you seem to have failed to have read the first one – that would be “measured”. Because indeed we can measure DM. Well, that’s not 100% accurate… we can measure it’s effects. Much as I can measure the distance across my desk and to the far wall. I can then measure my desk and see that there is a distance of some 7 feet beyond the end of my desk that is there but not my desk. Now, I cannot “see” that space is filled with air – mostly because air is tranparent. However, I can use other methods to prove that ther is a gas in that space and that that gas conforms to the substance we commonly call air in every possible way. Of course, 200 years ago we could only assume that air was there – there was no way to prove that air existed… after all it’s largely invisible and only its effects are directly observable by an unaided human. Still, it IS there and it can be qunatified.
You can also do this. It requires no faith, only a tape measure and some effort and, depending on how accurate you want to get about what is in the space between the desk and wall – a very large plastic bag and a gas chromatograph. If you want to you can even learn how a GC works, so you don’t have to take anything on faith. You could even even build one for yourself if you wanted… but I find it useful to stand on the shoulders of the scientists and engineers who came before me – no need to re-invent the wheel so long as I undertand how it works and that it does, indeed, work. I do not take it on faith that it works – I have gone to the trouble of learning how all the tools I’ve used function – at least in a larger sense (I could not for example, build a microporcessor, but I do have basic understanding of the physical prinicipals that allow it to be built and to do the wonderful things it does). Now, if one wants to get pedantic I suppose I do have a faith of sorts… it’s a faith that that the laws of physics can be discovered and verified. Of course this isn’t actually faith, since it involves verification whereas faith specifically precludes it… but it’s as close as I come.
Conversely, there is no way for me to verify the existance (or non-existance I will readily admit) of a deity – any deity – without an act of pure faith. A blind assumption that cannot be verified in any way ever devised.
August 9th, 2007 at 7:01 am
“Conversely, there is no way for me to verify the existance (or non-existance I will readily admit) of a deity – any deity – without an act of pure faith. A blind assumption that cannot be verified in any way ever devised.”
That depends on what you mean. If you are saying there is no way to verify or disprove all possible deities, then you are correct. However, there are ways to verify or disprove many specific deities that are widely believed in. This is because the deities have certain properties, require certain world histories (all different), and have certain effects on the world, and these can all be tested empirically to see if the predictions they make hold up. They have been tested extensively, and the effects are resoundingly negative. This does not mean some other deity does not exist, and does not mean some other form of the deity believed in that does not have those properties does not exist, but it does mean that the deity as it is believed to be by a great many people does not exist. The Christian concept of God is one such deity. Or at least the by far most popular forms of him in the U.S. (according to polls), as well as the form described in the bible (which no one actually believes in anymore, if ever).
For instance, the effects of prayer can be tested (the Bible is quite explicit about what prayer should be able to do, that is, absolutely anything). Properties the Bible says believers should be able to have can be tested (drink poison and get bitten by poisonous snakes without any ill effects, etc). Events and people described in the Bible can be checked (i.e. that there was a worldwide flood, that all the children in an entire region under the age of 2 were killed in a specific year, or that Egypt’s entire food supply, a large portion of its population, its entire military, and much of its government was wiped out at a specific point in history). Comparisons can be made between the books in the Bible, and often even within the books, to find contradictions, opposite predictions under the same conditions or different histories for the same events (if one of Newton’s laws predicted objects would fall up and a different one predicted they would fall down under precisely the same conditions then they would not be very useful laws, but the Bible does just that many, many times).
August 9th, 2007 at 7:35 am
“That is why your evidence is worse. It can only be found by people who think it will be found, it requires belief.”
Well then I invite you to my church to listen to the testimonies of hundreds of young adults that have turned their life around from drug addiction, depression, etc, etc, by putting their faith in Jesus Christ. You can be an unbeliever and STILL see what “effects” Jesus has made in their lives. So, we can see the EFFECTS of DM and we can see the EFFECTS of Jesus, so explain to me again why my evidence is worse.
“Conversely, there is no way for me to verify the existance (or non-existance I will readily admit) of a deity – any deity – without an act of pure faith.”
Do you deny that Jesus existed? Jesus was the only man to claim to be God, perform true miracles, and the only man to ever rise from the dead. Do you deny that these things happened? Maybe your answers to this will clear your perspective to me.
“Or at least the by far most popular forms of him in the U.S. (according to polls), as well as the form described in the bible (which no one actually believes in anymore, if ever).”
What exactly are you talking about? Please cite your “polls”.
“(if one of Newton’s laws predicted objects would fall up and a different one predicted they would fall down under precisely the same conditions then they would not be very useful laws, but the Bible does just that many, many times).”
Please cite your examples or was this something you “heard”?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:10 am
“Well then I invite you to my church to listen to the testimonies of hundreds of young adults that have turned their life around from drug addiction, depression, etc, etc, by putting their faith in Jesus Christ. You can be an unbeliever and STILL see what “effects†Jesus has made in their lives.”
Big whoop. I’m not dissing what they’ve done to help people with drug problems etc. But that’s got nothing to do with whether or not God is real or not. It’s not a predictable, testable thing.
“Do you deny that Jesus existed? Jesus was the only man to claim to be God, perform true miracles, and the only man to ever rise from the dead.”
I don’t deny he existed. I deny he “rose from the dead”.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:32 am
CSA, I can see that you’ve gone from complaining about atheists to now trying to justify your beliefs. The “effects” you speak of aren’t measurable. I don’t have a problem with your beliefs, you go ahead and believe in whatever you like.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Who’s complaining? I said before to believe whatever you want as God gave us free will.
As long as you and other atheists (its funny how offensive y’all get when I call you that, why is that?) try to “justify” your beliefs, God and the Constitution gives me the right to justify mine.
BTW, God doesn’t believe in atheists.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Anecdotes are not evidence. Testimonials are not evidence. Believing in just about anything can get your through hard times, but that is merely well-known psychological effects at work. It doesn’t require anything supernatural, all it requires is belief in something whether it exists or not. So it was not Jesus himself who had an effects, it was merely the belief. The thing being believed in does not have to actually exist. This is proven by the fact that other religions with beliefs that are completely contradictory to Christianity have the same effects on people. The religions have mutually exclusive beliefs, they cannot all be correct, yet the effects are the same.
On the other hand, the effects we see from dark matter can only happen if dark matter exists. If we were just imagining it, believing in it even though it is not really there, what we see would be completely different than what we do see.
I don’t deny that one or more religious leaders who was or were the inspiration for the present idea of Jesus may have existed, but outside of the Bible itself there is no evidence that there was a person that did any of the things claimed of Jesus, or that he or they were anything other than an ordinary human or humans, and the evidence of even him or them even existing is very hard to come by and much of it quite questionable. The matter of whether Jesus, or at least the inspiration for him, existed is completely different than the matter of whether the biblical stories about Jesus are correct.
All you have to do to prove this statement wrong is go to your local mental institution. Countless people have claimed to be God. There are a number of religious leaders today who claim to be God (Rev. Sun Myung Moon is a particularly popular example today).
Lots of religions claim “true miracles”, but the evidence for such miracles, from Christianity or any other religion, is non-existant.
Did you even read the bible? Jesus supposedly raised Lazurus from the dead, remember? This claim isn’t even supported by your holy book. Not to mention lots of religions have people being raised from the dead.
Yes, just like I deny identical claims from hundreds of religions. Or, rather, I have seen no evidence that they existed, despite looking fairly extensively, so I do not believe them. They might have happened, but I do not believe something unless given strong evidence to believe in it (let’s not get into the semantics of “believe”).
Do you accept those same claims from other religions or only Christianity? Why?
As Stephen Roberts said:
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”
How about the Baylor Religious Survey in 2005:
http://www.baylor.edu/isreligion/index.php?id=40634
You can find a whole bunch of them here:
http://www.thearda.com/
Examples? How about whether faith alone is enough for salvation? That is a pretty major issue. As examples, Mark 16:16, John 3:18, 36, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 3:20, 3:28, 4:13, 5:1, 10:9, 2:16 and others say unambiguously that faith is all that is needed. Matthew 5:20, 12:37, 16:27, 19:17, 25:41-46, Luke 10:26-28, John 5:29, and others give numerous other requirements.
Another issue is whether Christians are non-sinners and/or good people. 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8, 1:10 say no, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18, 3 John 11 say they are.
Is there anything that cannot be forgiven by God? Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10 say yes, Acts 13:39 says no.
Even the issue of whether humans have free well is contradicted in the Bible. Dt.30:19 and Joshua 24:15 say yes, Acts 13:48, Rom.8:29-30, 9:11-22, Eph.1:4-5, 2 Th.2:11-12, 2 Tim.1:9, Jude 4 say no.
There are numerous other examples, both major and minor.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:39 am
“BTW, God doesn’t believe in atheists.”
How would YOU know? (giggle)
An atheist get upset for being called an atheist? Never heard of that.
Oh, and uh, I’m not one. (shrug)
August 9th, 2007 at 10:42 am
You know, I will admit that it has been a number of years since I attended regular sermons… but I’m fairly certain that putting words in Gods mouth is universally frowned upon… you know, that whole man cannot know the mind of God thing. In fact, as I recall, trying tell other folks what God believes or doesn’t believe is a fast track to damnation.
You still don’t get it. Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief. There is NOTHING to justify here.
What I have seen here is people trying to get you to think critically and come up with something other than an empty argument from authority. You’ve essentially been saying God exists because the Bible tells me he does and the Bible is Gods word. That dog don’t hunt. I mean really, if we approached all of life with this kind of reasoning we’d have a pretty tough time of things. It boils down to the old parental method of telling a child “Because I said so”. It has no merit as an agrument whatsoever.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Oy… ever notice how you can proofread something 2-3 times and then notice a typo… just after you’ve hit the submit button.
I’m not sure what a “agrument” is… but I’m fairly certain is has no merit either. That should have read “argument” of course.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Rev. BigDumbChimp said:
> Irishman, “Get real� mm ok
Sorry, my remark was a bit flippant. I meant that in a casual way.
> They didn’t add equal funding for the public schools. Not equal. The additional funds can only support so many more students. If not adding the equal funding to the other option, then they are limiting the choice of some students.
My response was to your characterization that they were taking money away from students. They did not take any money away from any students. They left the public school funding level the same. They increased the private school allotment sufficiently enough to cover the addition of another private school to the list of approved schools. The only students they took money away from were the children of taxpapers. (If you want to go for the Libertarian no-public school position.
)
Now I fully agree that if they really wanted to help students, they would have allocated that money to accredited schools and left Bob Jones University off the list. Even better, allocated that money and more to the state funded school allocation, because as I said, the money would go farther. As for limiting the choice of some students, reality is that the limited amount of money allocated to Bob Jones will go to students who choose to go to that school because it is the school they want, not because they can’t afford college any other way. I would be hard pressed to think there’s any student forced to go to Bob Jones because that was the only grant/loan they could get. There may be students who are unable to get funds, and there may be students who could not afford to go to Bob Jones without the aid, but I doubt there are any students who will be in the position, “Crap, I can’t afford the U of SC, but Bob Jones will pay me to attend, so I guess I’ll go there.”
(For some reason CSA’s original post is missing. *shrug*)
CSA said:
> Well then I invite you to my church to listen to the testimonies of hundreds of young adults that have turned their life around from drug addiction, depression, etc, etc, by putting their faith in Jesus Christ. You can be an unbeliever and STILL see what “effects†Jesus has made in their lives. So, we can see the EFFECTS of DM and we can see the EFFECTS of Jesus, so explain to me again why my evidence is worse.
You can see the effect of actions taken by the believers, i.e. belief in Jesus and changing behavior accordingly. That is not the same thing as an effect of Jesus himself.
> Do you deny that Jesus existed?
The existence of Jesus remains unproven. There are no contemporary records, even in places there should be (such as historians of the first century). The supposed first hand accounts we do have were written 40 to 70 years after his supposed death, and were written for purposes and through processes not conducive to accurate renderings of events. In fact, they are often contradictory, or at least not corresponding. Much of the New Testament comes not from people who knew Jesus, but from Paul – a man who’s only encounter with Jesus was a vision on a road. I’m not certain there wasn’t a Jesus, but the evidence for him is slim, and most descriptions of him seem distorted from what the actual words attributed to him indicate.
> Jesus was the only man to claim to be God,
False. Many people claim to be God. Also, Jesus may or may not have claimed to be God. Often he claims not to be God, though he does claim to be “Son of God” and “Son of Man”, but then he also equates other believers (i.e. his disciples) as “sons of God”, so that’s hardly telling.
>… perform true miracles,…
Says you. The true miracles claim is untestable and not verifiable.
>… and the only man to ever rise from the dead.
Again, untestable, unverifiable. Oh, and not the only claimed person to do so. Lazarus. Okay, try Mithra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism
> Do you deny that these things happened?
I question them. I strongly doubt them.
> Maybe your answers to this will clear your perspective to me.
Perhaps, but I suspect not.
> As long as you and other atheists (its funny how offensive y’all get when I call you that, why is that?)
Us actual atheists aren’t bothered by being called atheists. However, there are a large number of non-atheists posting on the blog, so they might be a little miffed at being misidentified. And some of us would like to point out the mistaken assumption that Evolution requires atheism. Regardless of whether or not we are atheists, we don’t like misunderstandings.
August 9th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
“Believing in just about anything can get your through hard times”
Really? So if I believed I was a cat then someone’s death would be easier to take? Wow cool, never thought of that! Or would it be the fact that you’ll see that person again in Heaven that makes it easier? The fact that they’re all claiming Jesus is the one that healed them and not, for example, pretending they’re a cat, seems to suggest evidence of the Supernatural. True, people claim that in other religions too, but talk about no supporting evidence…..
Dark matter is just another way of saying “we have no freakin clue why this object is doing this but it must be some crazy effect from something. Let’s call it dark matter, yeah thats it, dark matter!” Calling it DM is just a scientific psychological ploy so you self-righteous people can go on in your quest to be your own god. I’m going to go ahead and change DM to God’s will since you can’t prove it’s anything else.
“Did you even read the bible? Jesus supposedly raised Lazurus from the dead, remember? This claim isn’t even supported by your holy book. Not to mention lots of religions have people being raised from the dead.”
WTF? Jesus rising from the dead is the whole tenet of Christianity. I need your sources on this looney line.
Fine, we won’t get into the semantics of “believe”.
“faith alone is enough for salvation”
Your issues of contradiction are mental masturbation. It’s doubtful that you can “believe” in Jesus yet be a serial murderer and enter Heaven. Bottom line is, Believe in and try your best to be like Jesus and let God worry about appropriate punishment for sins. If you knew everything God does, guess what, you’d be Him. And there can only be one.
Stark….I don’t believe I’ve said anything that isn’t said in the Bible (God’s Word). I guess if you don’t believe in the most historically accurate Book(s) of all time, then you’ll probably fall for anything. Oh and stop being so rigid. That’s probably why it’s hard for you to believe because you think you have to be perfect. God loves you the way you are no matter what anyone else has told you.
August 9th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
(formerly CSA) Well it seems that my posts are being deleted, filtered, moderated, and apparently now not posted at all. That’s cool, ya know I guess some people aren’t open to debate. I guess they want their blogs to be of their opinion only and others like-minded. Nice Phil Splat.
I came to this website the other day because I used to come here often many years ago when Splat just talked about good ole astronomy and not alienated people for their religious beliefs. I used to be just like y’all. Questioned the Bible, God, and anybody who tried to talk to me about. I was and still am a sucker for a good debate. I got deeply involved in astronomy, maybe looking for life answers, I don’t know. Through it all, it ALWAYS comes down to whether or not you Believe. I do, you don’t. That’s fine. I don’t think you’re any worse a person and I’m probably a worse sinner than you are.
Hey Splat, whaddya say we just appreciate science and astronomy for what it is and leave politics and religion out of it? No wonder this world can’t get along…..
August 9th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
CSA, you argue continuously from ignorance. I have not deleted a single one of your posts. If you actually did some, y’know, research before writing such silliness, you might find out that almost all blogs these days employ automatic spam filters. Your posts have been held in moderation for reasons known only to Akismet.
However, if you insist on insults I will in fact put you on the blacklist. Not that I expect someone who uses the handle “CSA” to do this, but try taking the high road.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
My apologies, “Splat” made me laugh pretty hard though. You did, in fact, delete one post and sometimes none were listed, but hey, bygones.
Now Phil, saying I’m ignorant because I believe in Jesus isn’t cool either. Wanna jump on the high road?
Seriously, though, why all the politics these days? Can’t we just enjoy astronomy here?
BTW, there’s a fine line between genius and insane.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
CSA, taking the high road also includes telling the truth.
Where have I said that you’re ignorant for believing in Jesus? Point that out to me, please.
As for why all the politics, I put a link at the bottom of that post to explain it. As long as politicians and creationists — and worse, the combination of the two — attack reality and science, I will push back.
August 9th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
“Point that out to me, please.”
You said I “argue continuously from ignorance”. I argue based on what I believe to be true. Well, I REALLY believe that Jesus Christ is Lord! So, in your book, that makes me ignorant.
Do me a favor, read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel (an atheist turned Christian). It’s a very scientific, facts-only approach to why anyone should believe. It’s also a quick and easy read but has all the good facts in it that I don’t have time to write. Since your an objective fact-minded guy, I’d be super interested to know what you think about it. Chalk it up to a science experiment. Heck, you could even hide it behind a Discover magazine if your embarrassed.
August 9th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
No, I said “believe in”, not just “believe”. If you believed in some cosmic cat it might very well help you through hard times. Although I suppose for some people believing they were a cat might help.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. That is why people are studying dark matter very closely in order to figure out exactly what it is and why it has the properties it has.
No, it’s just the standard scientific rule not to pretend to understand something when you don’t. You seem to be trying to criticize scientists when they admit they don’t fully understand something. As you just stated, you just stick God wherever you don’t understand something. That is just intellectual laziness. Scientists, on the other hand, don’t presume to just stick something like God wherever they don’t understand something. Instead, they admit there is a gap in our knowledge and then they go and try to fill it, as they are with dark matter as we speak. Once they figure out what it is it will no longer be called “dark matter” because we will then know what it is. On the other hand another hole where you stuck God is gone, and as a result your God gets a little bit smaller. This is the problem with sticking God wherever you don’t know the answer, you won’t bother trying to find the answer but other people will, and when they do there is less place for your God.
Nice try, but I didn’t say that Jesus being raised from the dead wasn’t part of Christianity. To refresh your memory, you said:
(emphasis added)
Your statement directly contradicts scripture, not because scripture doesn’t say Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead, but because the scripture says quite explicitly that Jesus was not the only person to be raised from the dead.
You are the one who asked me for examples of contradictions.
And the Bible does say you can be a serial murderer and enter Heaven (David killed tens of thousands of people, yet the Bible, the New Testament no less, says he was the greatest man ever in God’s eyes).
You’re kidding, right? There is practically no historical evidence for most of the Bible, and plenty of historical evidence against large parts of it. I’ve already the almost total lack of evidence for Jesus’s existence (in fact there is pretty much no historical evidence for anything in the New Testament). There is a similar lack of evidence for many things in the Old Testament (for instance the Egyptian plagues did not happen, Egyptian society could not have survived them, and there is no evidence for the Jews being in Egypt at all).
August 9th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
My saying you argue from ignorance is totally different then my saying that believing in Christ makes you ignorant.
August 9th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
“Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. That is why people are studying dark matter very closely in order to figure out exactly what it is and why it has the properties it has.”
First off, I could give a lick as to WHY there is or isn’t DM! Second, WHY is it SO important for you to know and why do you care? Just because you figured something out means God didn’t create it? HA! “Look, I discovered what’s under this grass, it’s soil! Ahaaa, now I’m god!” (beats chest)…….my God is everywhere and will always be bigger than anybody.
“the scripture says quite explicitly that Jesus was not the only person to be raised from the dead.”
Well WHO raised them? Jesus! They didn’t raise themselves!
“David killed tens of thousands of people, yet the Bible, the New Testament no less, says he was the greatest man ever in God’s eyes).”
Given that example, I guess George Washington was a serial murderer too. Greatest man ever? What verse?
“There is practically no historical evidence for most of the Bible, and plenty of historical evidence against large parts of it”
So things that are written down and passed on through generations is not historical evidence? What, they have to dig up bones and pottery? What exactly do you need “evidence” of? According to you, the U.S. Constitution will be null and void in 1000 years because we couldn’t find James Madison’s bones.
“the Egyptian plagues did not happen, Egyptian society could not have survived them, and there is no evidence for the Jews being in Egypt at all).”
Is there some model you ran that correlates plague spreading with death rates that exceeded the Egyptian population? Where do you come up with this stuff? Once again, I guess since they haven’t found Jewish bones in Egypt then they were never there. Sounds like you have no evidence to the contrary.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Which is exactly the problem here. You are content to just sit around, sticking with the status quo and not pushing our knowledge of the universe forward. There are some of us, however, that are working hard to understand this universe. Computers, cars, radio, airplanes, antibiotics, vaccines, modern agriculture. These are all benefits gained by people pushing knowledge forward. If the world was made up only of people who don’t value knowledge then we would never have left the trees in the first place. Dark matter makes up the vast majority of matter, understanding it is critical to understanding how this universe operates. It may not seem that relevant right now to you, but many of the discoveries that have become central to our modern way of life were originally made by people doing research on topics that did not seem that important at the time.
I’m sorry, but what are you talking about? No one here has made any claim remotely resembling this.
That doesn’t change the fact that you were wrong. Besides, you are assuming that just because the bible said they were resurrected they really were. How about all the other resurrection from other religions? Are their Gods capable of resurrecting people as well, as those religions claim?
Kg.11:4, 15:3, 15:5 says David was perfect and did only what was right in God’s eyes (except for that little Bashtheba thing). In Acts 13:22 God says he is “a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.”
George Washington did not carry out genocide (1 Sam.18:6-7, 1 Sam.19:8, 1 Sam.23:2-5, 1 Sam.27:8-11). He didn’t buy his first wife with the foreskins if 200 Philistines he killed with his own hands (18:25-27). He didn’t chop of people’s hands and feet, killed them, then hang up their bodies on display over a pool (2 Sam.4:6-7). He didn’t saw, hack up, and stick in kilns all the inhabitants of several cities (2 Sam.12:31). I don’t think you can really compare the two.
The bible is not “things”, it is one thing. It is only one source. I do not believe things based on only one source. There is no evidence for most of what is in the bible besides the bible itself.
No, because we have independent records of the events surrounding the constitution. We have many copies of the original documents, records from the constitutional convention, letters and journal entries from people who were there, newspaper reports, speeches about it by people who were there. The people who are mentioned in the constitution are mentioned in numerous other contemporary sources. The events were described largely the same by a great many people who were first and second-hand witnesses, both opponents and supporters. None of this is found for the bible.
Let’s look at exactly what happened during that time. The plagues wiped out: all of Egypts food stores, all their crops, all their livestock, all their game, and all fish in the Nile. In other words the entire country had absolutely no food, no way to get food, and they were in the middle of the desert. It killed a significant portion of their population, and incapacitated most of the rest. They lost their slaves, their manual labor, their Pharaoh, and their entire army. They had numerous enemies that would have immediately rushed in if that sort of chaos took place. The Nubians in particular were at constant war with the Egyptians. Yet there is not the slightest sign of any disturbance in Egyptian culture at that time.
There are no records by anyone in the area, Egypt or their enemies, recording such events. Even if Egypt tried to cover it up, which they couldn’t, their enemies would still have recorded it. A large population of people wandering around a defined area for decades would have left something.
August 10th, 2007 at 5:50 am
When you read posts from someone like CSA, you understand why fundamentalists who voted for and support our current president continue to believe he is a honest and prinicipled person.
Chistians like CSA think obstinate denial equals standing on solid principles. No… it means you are arrogantly proud to be willfully ignorant and uninterested in facts that might contradict your beliefs…not much to stand on. And neither is your so-called “most accurate book in history”
CSA, I can assure you that there is life after being a fundamentalist Christian, a universe of endlessly fascinating knowledge and personal growth that far exceeds the dimensions of the small hole,the myopic, suffocating cloistered environment that people like you live in. I was where you are now. I know how those comforting beliefs of certitude and ’salvation” can be enticing. Unfortuately CSA life is not that simplistic.
You are literally only “seeing” an infintesimal part of a universe that nearly exceeds our comprehension and definitely our everday personal involvement. Humans and our culture have only been around a very,very short time compared to the exceedingly deep time of the cosmos. To believe you have the absolute truth nicely and comfortably wrapped up in the unsubstantiated writings of a pre-scientific era and hold fast to the incredulous beliefs that make up evangelical Christianity or any other religion for that matter is presumptous to the 10^infinite extreme.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:58 am
“I argue based on what I believe to be true. Well, I REALLY believe that Jesus Christ is Lord! So, in your book, that makes me ignorant.”
CSA, No-one here is calling you ignorant for your religious beliefs. You are ignorant for dismissing science that you don’t understand because it doesn’t say “GODDIDIT!”. Science is not about disproving God and when science discovers something new, there’s no reason for you not to believe that God didn’t do it. It’s just that “Goddidit” makes no useful scientific predictions.
So, to be clear: NOTHING in science is saying God did not/cannot do it. God can do ANYTHING. Therefore is IMPOSSIBLE to predict. Therefore is NOT SCIENCE.
Is that clear enough for everyone else?
August 10th, 2007 at 10:23 am
I agree that science or secular philosophy cannot prove or disprove that a supernatural deity exists in the universe.
While what CSA argues is based on what he truly, sincerely believes is true, how do all humans find a common reference to base physical reality on,to govern ourselves, to conduct public policy, if everyone of us argued based only on inner feelings or just the writings of one “sacred” book even if it that argument is sincere.
How do we find consensus? A believer in the Muslim world, the Jewish world, the Hindu world, is just as fervent that his/her belief is emphatically true over all else and argues that point passionately. So what? Does the fact that I argue with passion that what I believe is sincerely true, make it true?
The main reason why I think good science in practice comes closest to finding common ground is because it measures, quanitifies and attempts to explain phenomenom that is common to all of us and does not try to use subjective, highly personal beliefs and wishful thinking to make sense of the universe.
Science is not trying to find the “absolute truth” in the phiolosophical sense, but “provisional truths” and “approximations of truth” because there is just too much we will never know that we can with authority say that this it folks…we have arrived at the destination…this is the end of the track.(the universe)
Well surprise, something comes along to overturn our cherished presumptions, our impeachable authority and rigid beliefs and we should have the maturity and flexibility to change our minds and move on. Nature gives us a thoroughly illustrative example with the processes of adaptation and evolution.
Most religions, because they percieve the natural world, biology etc. as secondary to the “spiritual” and inconsequential tries to operate in direct contradiction with the facts of nature. The facts? That the universe and life is continually adapting, changing and evolving. Do humans because of our uniqueness to other life think we are excused from that?
Science has a built in method to operate in accordance with the facts of nature, to stay dynamic and revisable and most religions do not, especially fundamentalism.
August 10th, 2007 at 10:47 am
oops, sorry…that should have been “unimpeachable” -beyond challenge or reproach
August 10th, 2007 at 10:47 am
“Which is exactly the problem here. You are content to just sit around, sticking with the status quo and not pushing our knowledge of the universe forward. There are some of us, however, that are working hard to understand this universe. Computers, cars, radio, airplanes, antibiotics, vaccines, modern agriculture. These are all benefits gained by people pushing knowledge forward.”
FYI, I’m a Mechanical Engineer not a janitor. I know more about “Computers, cars, radio, airplanes” than you’ll ever know. Knowledge forward, absolutely, it benefits us all. None of the items you listed were invented with any kind of knowledge from space. I just sit around? HA! Kindly make a list of YOUR inventions smarty pants.
“understanding it is critical to understanding how this universe operates”
Don’t get me wrong, space is interesting, but the only thing I can think of that benefits us by studying it is near-Earth asteroids. I used to actually be real “concerned” about them, but that was the God-less days. Understanding WHAT exactly? Will it change any of the laws of physics we are bound by?
“I’m sorry, but what are you talking about? No one here has made any claim remotely resembling this”
No, but you act like figuring out what DM is will be relevant to human existence.
“That doesn’t change the fact that you were wrong. Besides, you are assuming that just because the bible said they were resurrected they really were. How about all the other resurrection from other religions? Are their Gods capable of resurrecting people as well, as those religions claim?”
Ok I was wrong when I said He was the ONLY one, but nobody else is raised without Him. Who else was resurrected from other religions?
“That would help, but all I really need are other, independent, contemporary sources that are reporting the same events. No such records exist.”
If Jesus came and slapped you in the face you would say you needed two slaps for real evidence.
“None of this is found for the bible.”
Well they didn’t exactly have a First Amendment back then. People were persecuted and executed for talking about Jesus. Records were destroyed and since the Library of Congress didn’t exist, many things were lost. There also was not a magazine for every human activity under the sun like there is today. Fortunately, The Truth lived on.
“I don’t think you can really compare the two.”
I don’t think you can either since, ya know, the bible is just a bunch of inaccurate garbage. Perhaps you shouldn’t quote the Bible at all.
“The bible is not “thingsâ€, it is one thing. It is only one source. I do not believe things based on only one source. There is no evidence for most of what is in the bible besides the bible itself.”
The word Bible comes from a Greek term meaning “many books.†Our Bible is in fact a library; a collection of 66 books bound together in one remarkable volume. These books were written by at least 40 authors, from five different Continents, over a period of about 1500 years. The writers came from a wide range of personality and occupation: prophets and shepherds, fishermen, kings, peasants, explorers, builders, soldiers, scribes, theologians, poets and priests. Yet, despite the enormous diversity of its writers – the Bible has a unity of subject, structure, and spirit unparalleled in all of Literature. This is too fascinating for honest people to dismiss. The Bible is the most widely translated and circulated Book in the world. Though centuries old, The Bible it is always relevant to the day. Its quotations and its motifs are found in our literature, oratory, art, music, politics, law, and ethics. Its influence is inescapable. The witness of its inspiration is attested by countless millions of testimonies throughout history from individuals who have been transformed by the reading of this Book.
“There are no records by anyone in the area, Egypt or their enemies, recording such events.”
Even if there were, you wouldn’t believe it because it have to have been documented 16 times by 10 different people that all wore Birkenstocks with three straps not two.
“When you read posts from someone like CSA, you understand why fundamentalists who voted for and support our current president continue to believe he is a honest and prinicipled person.”
I give Bush’s foreign policy an A- and his domestic policy a D-. I believe he is principled but gosh if only he could be as self-righteous as you big dog.
Good points darth…… but when I could give a hoot less about why something is the way it is and will never have any relevance to human existence then, “GODDIDIT”, suits my life fine.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Bark..Bark..woof..woof
I don’t have a big dog, but I do have a overweight cat.
CSA,
You sound like a classic example of what indoctination into fanaticism can do to anyone, even if you are an trained engineer. Fundamentalism poisons the minds of many.
For someone who is interested in the field of astronomy, a science that deals with billions of years of space-time, it is ironic that you devote your life to something that mostly tries to inhibit and subvert the natural curiousity and imagination that humans have about the universe.
If everybody still adhered to the literal meanings of one book like the Bible or the Koran, etc. we would still be living in slavery and without modern medicine among other things. What a dull, unsophisticated, unelightened world we would live in if we all believed such archaic rubbish that has for too long held the human mind spellbound and ignorant.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:32 am
“Good points darth…… but when I could give a hoot less about why something is the way it is and will never have any relevance to human existence then, “GODDIDITâ€, suits my life fine.”
Good for you. But as to whether or not space exploration or various other sciences are “useful” or not, did you see Phil’s recent post of how Hubble had an important effect on the treatment of cancer?
“Understanding WHAT exactly? Will it change any of the laws of physics we are bound by?”
Uh, no-one is trying to do that. Simply understand more about the universe.
“No, but you act like figuring out what DM is will be relevant to human existence.”
And how do YOU know it won’t? There are probably many fields of scientific research that on the face of it, don’t sound like they would be very useful, from a layman’s point of view. I dunno, digging fossils for example. So what, should we just stop learning about the world?
Sure, the Bible’s a great piece of literature. But it has nothing to do with science. Science and religion are two separate subjects. Now it seems you’re just here to preach. And sorry, dude, but not interested.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Science has been compling a record for a very long time also that is “too fascinating for honest people to dismiss.” Science’s “influence” is also “inescapable”
It’s peotry and motifs includs relevant information that is applicable and common to our species, something useful and stimulating that can be used for pragmatic things or simply to broaden our understanding of what the universe is and operates.
The simple minded saying, no mindless actually, that “godditit”is sufficient, does nothing to compliment the inherent intelligence that our species is fully capable of.
Your “goddidit” insults everything exalted and praiseworthy about the search for knowledge. So if you are content to wallow in the fields on mental mediocrity then fine, but don’t try to force the rest of us through decietful politics to join you.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I’m not forcing you heathens to do anything but hear a different point of view. I know it frightens you but try not to wet your pants.
“should we just stop learning about the world”
No, learn all about the world, just don’t put all your stock into finding some life answer on Titan.
“Your “goddidit†insults everything exalted and praiseworthy about the search for knowledge. So if you are content to wallow in the fields on mental mediocrity then fine, but don’t try to force the rest of us through decietful politics to join you.”
HAHAHAHAHAHA……sorry…..but as the cavemen say….UHHHHH WHAT?……Dude, go ahead and search for knowledge (as I do in your posts), but I advise you to do it out of mutual benefit of mankind and not so you can be self-righteous.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
CSA, sorry for the lateness of my reply – but I’ve been busy with other things:
You said : “I don’t believe I’ve said anything that isn’t said in the Bible (God’s Word).” in response to my last post.
I’ll reply with: “BTW, God doesn’t believe in atheists.”
August 11th, 2007 at 4:32 am
CSA,
First off I am not your “dude.”
Science has the great capacity to find and utilize many things for the benefit of mankind. You and I are communicating on such a device when we post. But science also pursues information for the sake of knowledge to broaden our understanding of the universe. I see nothing self-righteous about that. If you have no wish to benefit from that and are intellectually satisfied with living in religious fantasies then that is your prerogative.
If you are telling us though that we can not fully understand the universe unless we are “saved” and accept that in this 14 billion light year time-space universe, one 4000 year old religious tradition is the one and only absolute truth, then I say frankly, you are the one who lives with grandiose delusions and self-absorbed, self-righteousness, not me.
If religion was just about humans being better persons, being kind and unselfish and trying to fully realize our potentials,helping others etc., then I would be all for religion. Instead it has to bring in silly stories about fallen angels and original sin, blood atonement etc. and whose God is superior to some other fantasy God.
In light of what science and modern human knowledge has revealed about life, real life, it’s time for irrelevant ideas that come from literal interpretations of the Bible to be discarded. They no longer, if ever they did, serve a purpose in contributing to human welfare and cultural evolvement. Bible fantasies do not address the pragmatic issues that our species is facing now. They just complicate the process of finding solutions.
Religion as it practiced today does more real harm by seeking to divide us form one another and nature than it ever does to bring us together.
August 11th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Correction on last sentence…”from one another and nature than it ever does real good in bringing us together”.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Stark……That’s satire, my dear.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:02 am
J…..sorry dudette!
August 13th, 2007 at 7:19 am
“I’m not forcing you heathens to do anything but hear a different point of view. I know it frightens you but try not to wet your pants.”
Ooh, heathens! (snicker)
:p
Uh, it you don’t seem to have realised, that maybe no-one here really cares about your point of view. After all, this is a science blog. If we WANTED to hear you preach, we’d go to a religious forum. (shrug)
August 15th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Darth Homo, you don’t seem to realize your a pole smoker (kneel bob)
August 17th, 2007 at 5:01 am
Eh, eat my “liberal” shorts.
(snicker, giggle)
August 27th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Alright…
Post your states up here. Let’s see if I can find at least on equally stupid article for each of you.
Go on…I’ve got the same amount of time you all must have.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
I printed out this “South Carolina” blog entry shortly after it came out last August. I think I intended to post a reply something along the lines that it seemed excessively snarkey to me (a South Carolinian for about 17 years, a reader of you blog for 2-3 years, and an owner of your book). I also intended to poke some gentle fun at the South Carolina legislature myself. Today I ran across that printout and then read things other people have posted on this topic (several of which make your original post seem quite mild). Not pretty.
I don’t know anything about the educational funding issues you commented on. However, I’ve lived in several states and I’ve not been terribly impressed with the legislature in any of them. One particular large northeastern state had no shortage of legislators who seemed to me to spend an inordinate amount of time on legislation that seemed, shall we say, heavily influenced by a large religious denomination in that state (not the denomination associated with Bob Jones University). I suspect that if you could somehow assess all of the bills passed by all of the state legislatures in 2007, this particular South Carolina item would probably not be in even the bottom 1000. Note that I said “bills passed”. If you considered bills or amendments proposed (or comments by individual legislators), the picture would be even more grim.
I’ve often wondered about the various selection effects which cause items like this to become “news” — so it would come to your attention — and, through you, to mine. I suspect one such selection effect is that newspaper reporters (and editors) enjoy making legislators look silly (something that has probably influenced the opinion that I expressed in the preceding paragraph). I suspect another selection effect is that several South Carolina educational institutions (and probably teacher’s unions, too) have people observing the legislative process, whose job it is to issue press releases biased toward maximizing their employer’s funding from the state (this is, of course, probably true in every state, not just South Carolina). I noticed the article you cited was from a newspaper in one part of South Carolina, while the funding that was criticized (the Bob Jones thing), apparently in the same article, was for a school in a different part of the state — possibly another selection effect.
Another selection effect is, of course, that I probably would not have responded to your post if it had not involved the state where I live.
In the responses to this item, you (or someone) mentioned South Carolina has dark night skies. I haven’t had a telescope since I was a boy (I grew up in a different state — in a place and at a time that had VERY dark skies). I did some viewing (with binoculars) of a comet a few years ago (might have been Hale-Bopp), after I moved to South Carolina. I was not able to find what I regarded a truly dark night sky ere, not even by driving perhaps 30 miles from my home to a national forest.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:52 am
Dr. BA,
The dooming of South Carolina continues (at Reverend Big Dumb Chimp’s place).
Just so y’know.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:10 am
hello
March 2nd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
First I would like to say that this is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard (Mainly the original writing).I just read the first few and would like to say that these are some of the worst facts I have ever heard of. I currently live in SC just a Mile away from BJU (No I do not go there). I will admit that they are very strict in what they do And I am not in any way defending them just SC , But in all fairness They do a lot for the community like charities, schools, etc…
This is all of the crap that I came across just by skimming
1. The state motto is not “first to secede” it is
“Dum Spiro Spero” – While I breathe, I hope
2. BJU dose allow its students to interracial date. They used not to but that was along time ago when it was the law under the “Jim Crowe laws. (not in 2000)
3. I currently attend a public school just a mile down the road from BJU wear I learn evolution or as you say “reality.”
And yes I am a average middle class citizen and I do not have to pay for my education.
4. By the way the only people who attend BJU are the ones who go to church there and pay a pretty penny to attend. So when you volunteer to go there you know what you are going to learn, they don’t force it upon you. That means yes you don’t have to pay for an education in SC its FREE.
5. When you say that they refused to give money to public schools and give it to BJU. That’s just a big fat LIE they did give grants to The School District of Greenville County (were BJU is located) and not BJU.I don’t know were you go you facts on this one but it’s a lie.
6. Also were is it written that all a school has to do is say we teach creationism and we get accredited. That is not true, my school and others have people come and review our school to see if it gets accredited. And yes once again my school teaches EVOLUTION and we get accredited every year. My entire life in school we never learned anything religious especially any thing on satin.
7. My mother is a 8th grade science teacher and they even learn about it in there classroom.
8. Oh yea by the way the 2 SC state senators are Jim DeMint and Lindsey Graham. That’s right they are both REBULICANS
This kind of stuff makes me mad when people who have no idea what there talking about pt down on SC.
P.S have you ever been to SC
May 6th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Whoever wrote this article must be a complete MORON!!! It is very irrational to imply that just because a school teaches Creationism that they are ignorant. On the contrary, to believe that the earth is billions of years old when carbon-dating itself has been proven incorrect seems rediculous!! Get a life and stop being so bigeted against higher education!!
May 13th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
To the mom about carbon-dating. It is very accurate!! When the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, carbon14 dating was used. The date they were suppose to be according to the Bible was very accurate with the carbon dating. Carbon dating can only go back so far. There are other means of dating radioactive decay other than using carbon.
The Earth is about 4.6 billion years old. We have found fossils dating almost 4 billion years and rocks that are dating older than that.
Be careful who you listen to. There are several “professionals” that will go around and give seminars on the Earth’s history and will tell you their “facts” for a younger age earth. However, you better look at their credintials. I can list a couple of these people and show you where they were fired from colleges for falsifying their evidence.
The difference with science and religion is that science will look at EVERYTHING and try to draw a conclusion or come up with a theory. If that theory is proved (accurately) wrong tomorrow, science will change it. Religion “fanantics” will only look at the evidence they want to support their beliefs and ignore evidence that will disclaim it.
In the state of Minnesota, there are over 20 different ideas on creationism. The Native American Indians have a different idea compared to the “standard” Bible version. Whose “creationism” are you going to teach?