Why do some Americans persist in their belief that their religious views are on target and the rest of us should accept and live by them?

I know some of those, and some I didn’t. I tried to keep my citations relevant to the founding of this secular republic, so I didn’t use any that weren’t. I refrained from using Diderot’s “entrails” intentionally, didn’t want to give my buddy Tood any more of a persecution complex than he already has

As to the “under” concept, I can easily see it as having a pornographic connotation. I once saw an Atheist cartoon depicting a man being “under” a god, but out of respect for Phil’s apparently “G-rating” for this forum, I’ll go no further redrawing it with words.

And finally, being one who seldom leaves questions unanswered, even at the end of threads, yes, apparently a few do

Silly over-literal interpretation? Sure, but as sensible as a lot that is taken seriously!

On which note I am going to bed leaving behind just one question : Does anyone read down this far this late in the thread anyway?

“Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long.”

You can only presume that Luther wished all women were lesbians!
(Think about it…)

“Selina Morse -again – beat me to the comment. Was going to say “What? You mean Catholic’s AREN’T Christians??” And here I thought they were – like – the original ones!”

Funny that’s what the Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Armenian etc ..) think too! They think the Popes splitfromthem and they’re original and right .. and as someoen elsepointed out tehfirst Christians were Jews followinga Jewish herectic and his disciples -well one branch off one (essenes?) Jewish cult . (The JudeanPeoples front or thePeopels front ofJudea perhaps… Orwas thatjust Monty python??

Plus too, many religious sects and schisms inc. some evangelical protestants think Catholics – indeed – aren’t “Christians” but would call them an “idolaterous”, “counterfeit”, “false” Church – pretty much as Catholics think of them being in their own eyes the one true church …

Personally, I think we atheists are much politer and more consistent in saying “sorry but you’re all wrong” than the various branches of supposedly the same religion are to each other.. At very least we’d not condemn Mother Teresa to hell as a Catholic or Martin Luther King to hell for beingProtestant or both to hell for not being Syrian Orthodox as you”d do. In fairness, okay, some of you – but theres the point :

_Everyone_ seems to have their own denomination, faith, sect, brand, favourite preacher, personal Jesus idea. Which God are we supposed to be under,whose version and says who … ?

Under One God? One ‘Christian’ God …? Puh-leese!
Indivisible? United? You’ve gotta be joking!

&, girl, am I glad I’m an Aussie and thus don’t have such pomposities of tribalistic custom to deal with … Sigh.

Cic & Irishman among others – thankyou for some excellent quotes. Might I humbly add these to your lists :

“Since it is impossible to coerce thought, the way to social harmony is to discuss conflict and pursue truth; the more people speak their minds freely, the more they are likely to be loyal citizens.’
– 17th Century [Dutch Jewish heretic] philosopher, B. Spinoza

“ I am not in actual fact a Zionist. I don’t think that Jews have some sort of ancestral right to take over a land because their ancestors lived there 1,900 years ago. … Nor do I consider to be legally valid the biblical promises by God that the land of Canaan would belong to the Children of Israel forever. … But don’t Jews deserve a homeland? Actually, I feel that no human group deserves a “homeland” in the usual sense of the word. The Earth should not be cut up into hundreds of different sections, each inhabited by a self-defined segment of humanity that considers its own welfare and its own “national security” to be paramount above all other considerations. … I am not a Zionist, then, because I don’t believe in nations … There are no nations! There is only humanity. And if we don’t come to understand that right soon, there will be no nations, because there will be no humanity.”
- Isaac Asimov, Pages 419-421, ‘ I Asimov : A memoir’ chapter 7 ‘anti-Semitism’, Bantam Books , 1995.

“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies against despots – suspicion.”
- Demosthenes, Phillipics-2. [Collins Concise Dictionary of Quotations, P.108.]

” ..the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. We [the USA] are only 6% of the World’s population – we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind.”
- John F. Kennedy. (Quoted by Phillip Adams, Page 11, ‘Weekend Australian’ magazine. Dec. 13-14, 2003.)

“We cannot consider that the armed invasion and occupation of another country are peaceful or proper means to achieve justice and conformity with international law.”
- President Eisenhower (quoted in ’The Guardian weekly’, 2005 Jan 28th – Feb. 3rd .)

“Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate.”
- Col. Charles Stuart during the American War of Independence, 1778.
(Iraq, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib & Palestine ring any bells there folks?)

“The supreme reality of our time is the vulnerability of our planet.”
- US President, John F. Kennedy, 1963.

“Although it is true that not all conservatives are stupid, it is also true that most stupid people are conservative.” – John Stuart Mill

“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest!”
- Dennis Diderot (1713-1784)
[Note :Yes, that's tongue-in-cheek for the irony-blind. I don't _actually _recommend taking that advice but I _can_ understand the frustration that drives it!]

& on the lighter side :

“Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long.”
- Martin Luther (Yep, the founder of Lutheranism – Believe it or not!)

& finally for the literalists on the pews doing EXACTLY what they’re told :

“Would the congregation please note that the bowl at the back of the Church labelled ‘For the sick’ is for monetary donations only.’
- Apparently a real church sign. (In a ‘Readers Digest’ I think from memory ..)

Hmmn .. Care to donate something for any organised fundamentalist religion?

BBBBLLLLEERRRRRRGGHGGHHH!!! There you go!

Hmmn … Dope cookies which are far stronger than dope ciggies seem to answer that one!

You’re welcome sir, and thank you. The Jefferson, and other founder’s quotations relating to the establishment and foundations of this republic I’ve posted are but a few of those I’ve compiled over the years in my on going battle with Christo-fascists and the Religious Reich in IRC as a host, or @ as it is often referred to, in the now closed down CNN chats, and at the CourtTV chat from which I recently withdrew.

I use to smile with a certain degree of satisfaction when someone new to either of those chats would enter and start posting Christian “testimonials” and or claiming this nation was founded on Christian principles, etc. as other chatter would inform them that this chat wasn’t the place for such and that they should stop before “cic” decided to teach them some American history or engage them in a discussion about their religion’s origins in occidental mythology, discussions they were bound to come out on the losing end of.

Your appraisal of our friend Todd is dead on accurate. The “poor-put-upon-Christians” line in a nation where at least 70 to 80 percent claim to be Christians is as tiring as it is absurd.

I also agree that it is time, if not well past time, to challenge and correct the violations of our religious freedoms as guaranteed in the constitution which Todd and some of his kind have come to accept as the norm.

Unfortunately, based upon my experiences in chats and forums such as this, I’m convinced that we have a long hard battle ahead of us to regain, maintain, and strengthen our rights to religious freedom in this nation. But it is a battle I eagerly engage, for as I told my friend Todd, I will not surrender or compromise our constitutional rights to appease any religion.

The irony factor of Google is a long noted “feature”. In fact, I have a suggestion for Google. They need to create an “irony filter”, a way to parse the content of the web pages for positive and negative statements about the topics so they know what to link, rather than just linking to key words. Hmmmm.

Bill said:
> I can understand getting the creationists out of the classroom. But at what point do we say our energies are better spent elsewhere?

This is a valid question. One can argue that slogans on money and phrases in The Pledge do not have force of law, they do not directly force belief in any deity or religious organization. Why focus efforts on them, rather than issues of more insiduous nature, such as creationism? The problem is the message carried by these symbols. The message conveyed is the one held and advocated by the religious conservatives, that the U.S. is a Christian nation, that Christianity is superior, and that even if we aren’t going to force you to go to church, we still expect you to adhere to christian principles and beliefs. It is a symbolism that non-Christians are outsiders, and that to be a good citizen one must really be a Christian – all else is inferior. If you think this statement is a straw man, then I point you to the statement of President George H.W. Bush, that atheists are not true citizens.

No, I don’t know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

You can see the arguments by posters in this thread justifying their rewrite of history on the inclusion of these phrases. It is this undercurrent of exclusivity and presumption of preferred position that is being opposed. Thus, it can be useful to bring up the topic by addressing these “harmless” situations to illuminate the issues.

cic, thanks for the responses and quotes on the Founding Fathers, especially the Jefferson stuff. I didn’t have the opportunity to dig those up to post.

Kedaver said:
> My problem is that the no-believers do not want compromise. no one is forcing them to pray or believe. having God on money is not forcing them to pray no is mentioning God in the pledge is not forcing them to beleive. I personally believe in God, yet I am being told that due to separation of church and state that God should not be on the money, or in a pledge, or mentioned on TV or in movies or anywhere.

You’ll need a cite for the assertions about mentioning on TV or in movies, etc. What is being opposed is the presumption of official sanction granted by the use of these mottos and phrases from official government use. How does taking “In God We Trust” off of money and striking “under God” from the Pledge force you to not believe or to not pray?

> My rights to speak freely are not as important as a non-believers rights to not hear about it. We are being told to be tolerant. We can not pray in school because it violates the rights of this atheist, or mention God on money or in the pledge because this guy over here finds it offensive.

You are incorrect. You are allowed to pray in school – individually, and in groups. What is not allowed is the school sanctioning prayer – the school leading the prayer or advocating prayer over non-prayer. Also, you are allowed to engage in prayer whenever it suits you, but you are not allowed to be disruptive. Standing up while the teacher is trying to lecture on polynomial theory and reciting the Lord’s Prayer out loud is every bit as disruptive as standing up and chanting “Bart Simpson Rules!” Limited by the constraints affecting any other behavior in school, you are allowed to pray, to believe in God and worship Jesus, and even to discuss it with your schoolmates.

> My rights are being violated when I am told that I can not wear religious articles to school if they are visible, yet someone else can wear clothing celebrating paganism, or mythology or atheism which I may find offensive yet is it perfectly within their rights by law.

You will need a cite for this. The only examples I am aware of for limiting religious icons and symbols is because those symbols have been taken up as gang identification. What is being resisted is the display of gang symbols and identification. Unfortunately, the gangs have targeted religious symbols.

> This is not about freedom, or equality or separation of church and state . It is about squashing religions that believe in the God of the old testament. Only Islam, Judaism and Christianity are the targets.

Non-”Abrahamic” religious traditions do not have a history of aggressive proseletyzing and oppression.

> This is a witch hunt, the same reason the pilgrims left the old country to come here. the fled religious persecution and founded this country on freedom of religion,

Amusing abuse of history. Yes, the Pilgrims escaped England to escape persecution. They went to Amsterdam. After ~10 years in Amsterdam, they weren’t happy because Amsterdam was too liberal, too tolerant. So they came to the U.S. to found their own colony, where their own religious preferences were the ones in power, and they could do the persecution. Of course, that was over a century before the birth of the United States of America as a separate nation. By the time of the War of Independence, and eventually the Constitution, there were other people and other ideas that were driving the development of the nation as a whole. “Freedom of religion” was not a concept taken from the Pilgrims, they were largely opposed to religious freedom, they just wanted to define what was accepted.

> but that freedom is being taken from us now. We are being told to tolerate others, yet the others refuse to tolerate us and our practices. Religion is not destroying this country, the left-wing liberalists who do not understand equality or freedom or tolerance will be the down fall of this nation.

Standard christian martyr syndrome rant. Reality check – christianity has enjoyed a number of privileges in this country, privileges that are at odds with the values of equality and fairness and religious freedom. What is happening is that these privileges are being brought to light and attention focused on them in order to rectify the situation. What that means is that the dictates of fairness and equality demand these privileges be ceased for christianity to be placed on the same footing with all other religious views. From a christian perspective, this is viewed as persecution, the trunction of rights. But it is not, it is the cessation of preferential treatment to allow other religious views equal treatment, as required by law and the U.S. Constitution, as well as the values of our society. The loss of privileges is not the loss of rights. Rather, it is the fight to restore the rights of others that have been usurped.

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Coincidence? Or is the Big Googler watching and commenting?

And thank The Flying Spaghetti Monster (god) for credit cards!

Though you objections are well placed and historically accurate sir, displaying the faces of the slave owning, hemp growing, whiskey and beer distillers, and in some cases blasphemers who founded this republic on currency rather than specifically Christian mythological references would at least put faces to the daily constitutional reading we both advocate.

I also like your idea of going back to personifications of liberty and commemoratives. I suspect the Madalyn Murray O’Hair commemorative dollar would be as good a place to start as any!

Congrats! that took “guts” to directly confront and reject Christian coercion. Job well done!!!

My parents were religious, and like good Christians they sent me to Sunday school. I was finally removed from Sunday school after a few weeks because I questioned what they said and refused to accept the pablum answers they gave me. “Because it says so in the Bible.” and “God just made/did it that way.” neither answered my questions or prevented me from asking more. I wish everyone on this forum could have seen the Sunday school teacher’s face when I asked her, “And where did god come from, who created him?”

When other kids started asking, “Yeah! why is that?” and, “That doesn’t make sense to me either, what’s the deal?” I was removed.

But instead of being free from religion as I’d wanted to be because as the comedian said, “I was religious till I reached the age of reason”, and wanted nothing to do with this religion of theirs because none of that stuff made any sense or fit into the reality I lived, they made me an acolyte … acolytes of course don’t get to say anything, so my parents were able to maintain their standing in the church, and I was effectively muzzled.

I did however argue under my breath and challenge, and question what was said in the sermons and such until the day I was old enough to be asked if I wanted to go to church. My, “No I don’t,” replies finally set me free.

My parents told me they were sure that I’d out grow this silly rebelliousness and eventually return to church. With the exception of a few weddings, and a few funerals, including theirs, I’ve not been to church since.

I over looked something you said which is absolutely correct, sir. I will not compromise, not one damn bit, sir. I’ll not give an inch. There is no way in your hell, that i am going to compromise my constitutional rights, or yours.

To quote one of the Atheist founding fathers Thomas Paine, “He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemies from oppression: for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach unto himself.”

In other words, I’ll not compromise my religious freedoms in this secular republic and allow those who, either with full knowledge and intent, or out of ignorance, would destroy our freedoms of religion by attempting to subvert this republic’s religious freedoms in the name of some mythological construct.

I support your rights to believe as you chose, and to practice your beliefs and rituals in so far as they do not infringe upon the rights of others to be totally free from your beliefs so they may practice as they chose, and I refuse to compromise your rights to be totally free from the religious practices and rituals of others, or my rights to be totally free from yours, and their beliefs, practices, and rituals.

Our secular republic’s freedom of religion is also freedom from religion, it guarantees your right to believe, and my right to be free from Christians with matches

So lets make a deal sir, you keep your religion to yourself, that is out of our schools, our government and its buildings, our courthouses, our classrooms, our public gatherings, and I’ll not think in your church.

I’m Canadian so we didn’t say any pledge or anything… But I remember one month in 5th grade when we had a substitute teacher… She made us pray before starting class everyday. When she realized that I was just doodling, she came up to me and said:

“Why aren’t you praying?”
“Why would I? I don’t believe in your God. Or any other in fact.”
“You must pray anyway. You don’t believe in God but God still believes in you.”

The next morning the principal got a visit from my angry dad. The substitute didn’t annoy us anymore with prayers afterwards.

I agree, to a point, that being the problem with that god stuff in the pledge and on the money is being used to undermine our secular republic by those who say that because it is there, this nation was founded on Christianity, which is as absurd a claim as it is historically inaccurate. I know that argument is a non-sequitur, but I have heard it being expressed by quite a few who support subverting our secular republic into a theocracy. Removing it would prevent them from using it.

I like your daily constitutional reading day idea, yes, follow it with a discussion of what that day’s reading means. It would be a nice accompaniment to my idea of reinstating the teaching of civics again, requiring a passing grade in civics as a graduation prerequisite from the 4th or 5th grade through college undergrad degrees at all accredited schools and a requirement for the transferal of credits from one school to another as well.

The teaching and understanding of why this is a secular representative republic, and the history behind why it was established as one, and why our founders, including the Christians among them decided to establish this nation as one, and how it differers from other forms of past and present government, it’s advantages and freedoms, etc would put a stop to the truly subversive, and in some ways terroristic attempts of some to destroy this secular republic and establish a theocracy “under” some mythological construct.

The history of, “nations under gods” and what they do to people is to horrible, bloody, and destructive to repeat, lets not let it happen here, lets fight ignorance, superstition, and the subversive attempts to undermine our secular republic with knowledge.

I too noticed that Google add and can only figure that perhaps Phil, like i advocate, is a supporter of freedom of speech and of religious freedom as well.

I agree it is kind of funny to see such a thing here, but there is something to the old adage, “give em enough rope to hang themselves” the book being advertised is a hoot and can only be supported by those still living in the 12th century, not the 21st such as myself, and if I’ve judged correctly from your posts, you sir as well reside in the 21st century.

Because this nation was founded as a secular representative republic, with freedom of, and from religion, no religious references should be on our money, or in our pledge. It is clearly an attempt to “establish a religion” which violates the establishment clause of the 1st amendment. None of which has anything to do with “force,” or Atheists sir, it’s about respecting this republic’s constitution and has nothing to do with what may or may not be “offensive” to anyone either.

No one has said that because of this republic’s separation of church and state, which I’m glad to see that you acknowledge, that your god can’t be mentioned in movies, TV, etc. TV, movies, are all free to, and in fact, many TV shows and movies have quite a few references to Christianity, as Mel Gibson can tell you, as just one example.

Your child may pray in school sir, no one has said they can’t. What you can’t do is force by the power of the state through the schools your prayers upon everyone else’s children, or force those children who chose to be free from your religious practices and rituals to singled out and ostracized by having to leave the room and endure being attacked for not believing in god by “loving Christians” as is well documented. In fact sir if you practice what your Jesus says about prayer,

“Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your father who is in heaven.” your Jesus, Matthew 6:1

“And when you pray, your must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. truly i say to you, they have their reward.” your Jesus, Matthew 6:5

“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your father who is in secret; and your father who sees in secret will reward you.” your Jesus, Matthew 6:5

There would be no issue about public prayers at all if those advocating it would just practice what the Jesus they claim as their savior says.

There is no law or school policy in the nation that prohibits any child from praying in school all day long, so long as he does it in accordance with the teaching of his Jesus and respects the other children’s religious freedoms to be free from his religious practices and rituals. The argument that “our children can’t pray in school” and “god has been taken out of school.” are red herring fallacies sir.

As long as schools have policies banning the wearing of any religious symbols, including those you call “pagan” ones, I’ve no problem with that.

Yes sir, this is all about freedom, equality, separation of church and state, and about the one thing you’ve conveniently over looked sir, the secular constitution of this republic.

No religion is “a target” only the attempts by some advocates of certain religious views which are a threat to our republic’s freedoms of and from religion are being prevented from imposing their religious views and practices upon this republic

Sir, with all due respect, Atheism is not a religion, look it up, sir, I did:

Religion:
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Atheist:
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Therefore sir, Atheism is not a religion, pagan or otherwise, sorry.

Again with all due respect sir, I’d be careful about using terms like “witch hunt” … that’s something your Christian history is full of, The Inquisitions, and here in America, Salem, as well as the current attitude of some such as the former president GHW Bush who said in so many words that Atheists aren’t true Americans, I’d respectfully submit that Christian supported “witch hunts” are not only a part of a very bloody Christian history, but are also very much in evidence today.

There is a very good, and rather obvious, reason why “Satanism, and other pagan practices such as Witchcraft, wicca, Hinduism etc are not being accosted.” None of those groups are attempting to impose their beliefs and religious practices upon every citizen of this republic. No satanist, Wiccan, Hindu, or Jew, or Islamic for that matter, is trying to inject their creation myth, first “creationism” which the courts correctly rejected, and then ID which was creationism under a different name into biology classes, or have their god or gods placed in this republic’s pledge, on its money, on government building, courtrooms, classrooms, or their religious rituals injected into public events such as football games and such. So is it any wonder that those few Christians who are doing these things are being confronted by those supporting our constitution and its religious freedoms for all?

I submit it would be rather “un-American” to do otherwise and do nothing as this republic is subverted by a few who would impose any religion upon us all.

Sir, the pilgrims didn’t “leave the old country” they were run out under threat of death for doing what some, but by no means all, Christians here are doing here now. They were attempting to impose their religion upon a Europe that had had enough blood spilled over the imposition of a religion upon a people. The pilgrims didn’t found this nation sir, they set up little theocracies over here. This nation’s founding document is our secular constitution.

The freedoms you say are being “taken away” are those guaranteed to us all, not just your particular religious sect, by the secular constitution of the United States, the document that established this republic on the principle of men governing themselves after fighting and winning a revolution against the biblical from of government, a kingdom ruled by “divine right of a king to rule a people.”

The downfall of this nation will come when, among other things, people abandon our constitution in favor of establishing the theocracy you appear to be advocating, not because of those who fight against the imposition of a religion into their lives.

No one, and certainly not this government is or ever has burned down your churches, or burned your fellows at the stake because they didn’t “believe” the correct things, or imprisoned you for your beliefs. In fact, now that I think about it, those acts are actually a part of your Christian history, so those you say are telling you to “tolerate” may have a very good point after all, given your history, sir.

I am, and quite proud to so state, one of those you refer to as a “left-wing liberalism who do not understand equality or freedom or tolerance.” Since I understand that freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion because you can’t be free to practice your religion if you are not TOTALLY free from other’s religions, I submit that I have a much more thorough understanding of equality, freedom, and tolerance for I am one of the strongest defenders of religious freedom in this nation sir.

I have quite a few Christian friends who agree with me about this nation not being founded on any religion and my views on religious freedom as well. They understand that I grant them the same freedoms I exercise, the freedom to believe as they chose and practice it so long and in ways that don’t infringe upon my rights to be totally free from any religious interference in my life

Religious freedom allows you to practice your religion, be it worshiping flying dogs, or your god and or gods, and it grants me freedom from all of those beliefs, and from some of those in the Evangelical Christian movement today who know how to strike matches …

My problem is that the no-believers do not want compromise (Untrue). no one is forcing them to pray or believe. having God on money is not forcing them to pray no is mentioning God in the pledge is not forcing them to beleive. I personally believe in God, yet I am being told that due to separation of church and state that God should not be on the money, or in a pledge, or mentioned on TV or in movies or anywhere(Untrue). My rights to speak freely are not as important as a non-believers rights to not hear about it(Untrue). We are being told to be tolerant. We can not pray in school because it violates the rights of this atheist(Untrue), or mention God on money or in the pledge because this guy over here finds it offensive(Untrue). My rights are being violated when I am told that I can not wear religious articles to school if they are visible, yet someone else can wear clothing celebrating paganism, or mythology or atheism which I may find offensive yet is it perfectly within their rights by law(Untrue). This is not about freedom, or equality or separation of church and state . It is about squashing religions that believe in the God of the old testament(Untrue). Only Islam, Judaism and Christianity are the targets(Untrue). Atheism, satanism, and other pagan practices such as Witchcraft, wicca, Hinduism etc are not being accosted(Untrue). This is a witch hunt(Untrue), the same reason the pilgrims left the old country to come here. the fled religious persecution and founded this country on freedom of religion, but that freedom is being taken from us now. We are being told to tolerate others, yet the others refuse to tolerate us and our practices(Untrue). Religion is not destroying this country, the left-wing liberalists who do not understand equality or freedom or tolerance will be the down fall of this nation(Untrue).

I especially like that google ad…
“2008: God’s Final Witness. Unpreceded destruction will come in 2008, leading to America’s fall. http://www.the-end.com“