Al Qaeda was using that definition of Nationalism to push their radical agenda in Afghanistan. There was no hope in negotiating with the government of Afghanistan and I fully support the invasion of Afghanistan. So to say that Afghanistan was the wrong country is just erroneous.

I’m also not interested in turning this into a bash Bush thread, but every military movement that’s been made under the Bush administration was okay’d by Congress. Even under the current Democratic control, there has been no real movement to end the war. And yes, the Congress could end the war tomorrow if they cut the funding to it, so don’t tell me the left doesn’t have the ability to end it.

Al Quaida (a.k.a. “The convenient boogeyman”) is NOT a nation but criminal gang driven by ideology.

I think an attack on Afghanistan could possibly, just possibly, have been avoided with enough diplomacy. Then they may – just potentially – have even handed over the probably Late & not-so great Osama bin Laden.

You make war against nations – countries like Iraq or Vietnam or Argentina.

AQ ain’t no nation – just a bunch of whacko bigots much like your own Ku Klux klan or Mcveigh-type militias. They are a criminal problem and best treated as such NOT elevated to warrrior status.

Invade a country and you’re at war with that whole country .. & thats bad enough when its the _right_ target – Let alone when its the *wrong* one!

Sadly, again America does have a record of fighting unwinnable “wars” against lots of things that aren’t “war-able”, eg. drugs, poverty, etc …
The sooner the US learns this is just plain dumb and NEVER going to work the better.

Seems we’ll have to wait until Bush is impeached (which shoulda happened years ago) or when the religious Wrong & their “Tyrant~ican” party (to name them correctly) finally get voted out of power.

We can just hope they do less damage to everyone else on the planet rather than more in the interim ..
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Sir Lancelot : Hail King Arthur, I’m back triumphant from raping and pillaging your enemies in the South!

King Arthur : Lancelot you moron! I told you to rape and pillage my enemies in the North not the South! I don’t _have_ any enemies in the South!

Sir Lancelot : You do now, Sire!

To Steve:

I believe you’re arguing a semantic issue here when I reference terrorism. I hope I did not lead you to believe that I was referencing a tactic, but rather a movement of terrorists in the form of Al Qaeda and other such groups.

…Fight Al Quaida – which incidentally is a bunch mass-murdering criminals rather than any nation-state? Sure. But you don’t need to invade ANY nation to do that …

I would contend that Al Qaeda is indeed a nationalist group within the Middle East, who sees the United States as an obstacle to their ends. I surely do believe that an invasion of Afghanistan was absolutely essential to bring down the Taliban (a chief supporter and funder of Al Qaeda)

While I believe that empathy is an absolute in understanding foreign affairs (look at our Latin American relations in the 20th century), the very definition of a terrorist organization, or a fundamentalist group is that they are not accepting of any opinion differing from their own. How does one deal with such a group? Yes, I can see posts now about how the United States under that definition could be considered just like Al Qaeda, but any person with knowledge of American foreign relations would not subscribe to that.

I also cannot subscribe to the notion that we are fighting a war for Oil. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan were the chief suppliers of oil to the United States, and all reports from the White House is that they have a planned draw down in troops planned within the next year or two. If we wanted Iraq’s oil, why draw down troops?

to Boggis:

Pakistan is one of the largest supporters of the United States in the Middle East and if we were to turn on them, it would be disastrous to our relations in the Middle East.

I do not believe there is an “obvious solution” to the Middle East right now, there are tough decisions, and bad decisions. I believe we are still sorting out what the difference in these are.

To Both:

That’s very interesting indeed that there could be an alternative fuel source on the moon. I WOULD consider that a viable venture to go back to the moon. I hope I didn’t seem unmovable on the issue of returning to the moon. Like I said before, if we can provide a good reason to go back, I’m all for it; but simply racing the Chinese… eh..

I heard Homer Hickum talk about the potential for large amounts of fuel to be found on the Moon. Interesting to see it mentioned now.

“Well, since we had the technology to get there almost 40 years ago, it’s obvious that technology is not really an issue in determining who gets a permanent presence on the Moon first. Given the political will, we could have done it 25 years ago, at least.”

If I remember correctly, 25 years ago we have not found any water deposits on the moon. A permanent presence would require astronomically expensive resupply missions!

” … Afghanistan is under threat of being over-run by the Taliban (again) and their assorted warlord friends. The Taliban aren’t terribly tech-savvy, nor a risk to other nations. Plus they’re based in Pakistan, just like Osama Bin Laden and his boys.”

-Dubious assertion there I’m afraid. We _think_ OBL *may* be hiding inPakistanor on the border twixt there &Afghanistan. We don’t really know. We _thought_ Iraq had WMD’s, we _thought_ invading Iraq was a good idea, we _thought_invading the Bay of Pigs and Veitnam were good ideas too. We thought WRONG.

Let’s now think twice and not jump to silly conclusions as seems likely to be happening currently with Iran … (Ooops, they weren’t threat either .. gee, sorry! Shame about sparking WWIII…)

It strikes me as quite possible OBL is already deceased or captured. There were reports last year if I recall stating he’d died of typhoid.

Boggis : “If you want to get serious about the terrorism threat then it would seem wise to back out of the Middle East and put the thumbscrews on Pakistan. That probably can’t happen until a viable replacement for oil is found. Helium 3 could be viable. Guess where there is thought to be a lot of that? (Look up.)”

The atmosphere? The Sun? NearEarth Asteroids .. Wait no I’m guessing the Moon! In fact, I know its meant to be. Again, lets find out – send a few missions up there & see! Please lets do it!

As for pakistan, its one of our best allies with alotof internal problems. Its under a lot of pressure already. Abitmore and it – & its nuclear arsenal -could fall into the hands of the fundamentalist extremists. Not a pleasant scenario – but Dictator Musharraf (“our son-of -a-B-”) has already survived several attempted assasinations & is horrendously if understandably unpopular for siding with ‘The Great Satan’ as the average Pakistani views us. We need tobe very, very careful and cautuious indeed.

Pulling our trrops out of where theyshould never have been -GREATY idea betas me why it wasn’t done much earlier. End support for Israel and start being more respectful of the values and views and soverign rights of Muslim nations – even better.

Lets think laterally and sell New York to the Jewish lobby and use that and its surrounds as “Israel” – evacuating them from their unendurable current circumstances which are corroding away the true peaceful and intelligent Jewish spirit whilst treating and thus turning the Palestineans into wounded, furious animals.* If we charge enough to bankrupt them but move the Jewish state from being aself-made national ghetto surrounded by people who hate it (& always will now -with good reason) to a nation that benefits from and already works with them great .. If we make the Jewish lobby less malignantly influential on US foreign policy (tothe detrimentof America and the wider world) then 5000 x better!
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* We are ALL animals actually. There is, I think, a Newtonian “every action has an equal & opposite reaction” effect in human pyschology too. Dehumanise the Palestineans & we dehumanise ourselves. Attack and slaughter them & ,surprise, surpise, they’ll do that to us.

I don’t want Israel destroyed nor do I wish the Palestineans crushed and destroyed either as the Jewish lobby would have it.
I do think creating the Jewish state where it was, was one of the worst mistakes of the 20th century & moving it would be a great idea ..

…
1. Using the money to advance a nuclear energy program advancement in the United States.

2. Provide more funding to the TRUE war on terror in Afghanistan as opposed to Iraq.”

A true war on TERROR would mean arresting Stephen King & banning Halloween (Okay it ain’t that scary but y’get my drift, I hope.)

Terrorism is a tactic like kidnapping or bombing fromthe air. It ain’t possible to fight a war on a tactic, its just meaningless.

In fact, you could argue semantics by noting that “Shock-&-Awe” and Mutually Assured Destruction both used by the US military are themslves forms of terrorism.

Or perhapos more constructively you can – & I am- argue that teh best tactic to fight terror is UNDERSTANDING.

Fight Al Quaida – which incidentally is a bunch mass-murdering criminals rather than any nation-state? Sure. But you don’t need to invade ANY nation to do that ..

Elevating OBL from murderous nutcase criminal (which he is) to leader of a military crusade / jihad by attacking nations that had very little if anything to do with him was the worst mistake Bush the Lesser ever made.

The best way out of the Iraq -”War of Terror” mess is stop digging – admit we got things wrong & call our trops back – plus stop funding and arming Israel and start behaving like a decent,co-operative global citizen rather than an Empirial bully.

At present China is a rising Empire, the UnitedStates afalling one -our best bet is to join therestof theworld as one of many &control theworst excesses of the new Chinese empire rather than get into a worse and new Cold war or fall into isolationism. I suggest reforming the United Nations & giving it some real teeth! (Abolish the veto powers, make UN an independent army with nuclear capabilities & make its laws enforceable and enforced evenly on all nations – even against china and Israel &, yes, even against us – because other alternatives are MUCH, much worse for everybody on the planet.)

Afghanistan is under threat of being over-run by the Taliban (again) and their assorted warlord friends. The Taliban aren’t terribly tech-savvy, nor a risk to other nations. Plus they’re based in Pakistan, just like Osama Bin Laden and his boys.

If you want to get serious about the terrorism threat then it would seem wise to back out of the Middle East and put the thumbscrews on Pakistan. That probably can’t happen until a viable replacement for oil is found. Helium 3 could be viable. Guess where there is thought to be a lot of that? (Look up.)

Quite often there are obvious solutions just sitting there waiting for people to see them.

Oh, and China doesn’t care too much about the flag-planting crapola. They need energy.

What I’d love to see – the first Chinese astronaut (sorry, _taikonaut_) jumps out on the lunar (or better yet Martian) surface and proudly plants ..

… the Tibetan flag & claims amnesty and that she’ll fly back to Europe or the USA! Then gives away their secrets plus revealing how badly the Chinese govt. treat the Tibetans, other Chinese minorities and, lets face it, pretty much everyone else .. Then challenges them with: “Hey what are you going to do about it from down there!”

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(I know, I know, they’re hardly likely to pick a Tibetan Taikonaut or one from Xinjiang, Burma or non-Han Chinese generally anyhow – but its pretty funny to imagine!)

… the Tibetan flag & claims amnesty and that h’ll fly back to Europe or the USA!

Hey what are they going to do about that!

(Inow, Iknow, they’re hardly likelytopick aTibetan Taikonaut or one from Xinjiang, Burma or non-Han Chinese generally anyhow -but its pretty funny to imagine it!)

“That’s fair. However, I think a lot of people (incl. NASA and the Chinese) see the moon as a sort of stepping stone to bigger better things like Mars etc”

I understand what you’re thinking here, but I still believe that the moon does not necessarily need to serve as that stepping stone. I heard Seth Shawstack from SETI speak the other night, and he had some very interesting thoughts about Mars and further exploration there.

I could think of a lot of things I would rather spend billions of dollars on outside of worrying about the Chinese showing up 40 years late to the dance.

1. Using the money to advance a nuclear energy program advancement in the United States.

2. Provide more funding to the TRUE war on terror in Afghanistan as opposed to Iraq.

3. Provide more funding to NASA for research and discovery outside of the moon, most specifically mars.

Yeah, short list, but it’s all that comes to mind at 4:30 am

>>>That’s fair. However, I think a lot of people (incl. NASA and the Chinese) see the moon as a sort of stepping stone to bigger better things like Mars etc…

I will assume the film set comment is a joke but the question is about why it isn’t easy to go back.

Physical equipment to do the job is not in hand. That means we don’t have a rocket, or a lander, available. Also, it means that parts used to build new items to the old designs are not available. They are obsolete. Also, not only do we not have critical parts, but in fact the tools, fixtures, and processing equipment would need to be rebuilt.

Furthermore, Apollo does not have the capability we want in our new program. We want a larger crew and larger payload capability, for longer stays. And we want higher reliability.

So, we are essentially redesigning anyway, and trying to take into account new materials and manufacturing processes. That puts us with some advantages over the Apollo days by building upon their knowledge and experience. But the flipside is that without the deadline and without the challenge of the Cold War and the Space Race, the funding is not being provided to work at the same pace. In fact, with the Shuttle and Station program taking a huge part of NASA’s budget, the piece available for the lunar program is something like 1/16th the money spent on Apollo (NASA has 1/4 the effective budget, and only about 1/4 of that is going to CEV.) If you don’t spend the money, you don’t do the work in parallel, you do it in series. That means it will take time.

“I don’t necessarily have any better ideas than going back to the moon again, I would have just hoped that in 40 years, we would have progressed our thinking beyond the moon.”

That’s fair. However, I think a lot of people (incl. NASA and the Chinese) see the moon as a sort of stepping stone to bigger better things like Mars etc…

I understand living in a pollyannaish world thinking we all should get along and to put away our stealth bombers and defense systems, but alas, we do not.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor of NASA getting more funding should it be deemed pertinent. But it’s just comical to see the same fear mongering from NASA, creating a means to their end, that many people on here criticize the Gubb’net of doing.

I guess what I’m saying is, don’t complain about one set of people creating unnecessary fear, when it’s done just the same by your interest group.

(I apologize for the other post, my full comment above was not posted)

To continue answering, I don’t necessarily have any better ideas than going back to the moon again, I would have just hoped that in 40 years, we would have progressed our thinking beyond the moon.

“Maybe we should be focusing on more productive uses of time in space rather than doing another “race to the moon”.”

Interesting statement, what are your ideas?

“Perhaps you should shut up.”

Wow that was a totally convincing argument. Don’t let them get under your skin you started out so well.

Yup it’s the consumer’s fault. It has nothing to do with the fact that no one in America can produce the same things cheaply. “Don’t buy from slave laborers” someone said, but then failed for point to any relevant alternative. You’re just as likely to get the Chinese to pay their workers more as you are to take a pay cut yourself so that your friends and family can buy American made.

And the Chinese beating American’s back to the moon has nothing to do with the Gov’t fighting pointless wars or searching for WMD that don’t exist.

given the institutionalised stupidity of the political classes

That stupidity being driven by the demands of the public, even if said public doesn’t realise it. So who’s stupid?

That’s $400 BILLION dollars. And it goes up every year.

Crazy idea: why not spend money on exploration and scientific advancement that may help our ailing planet, rather than spend it on weapons to destroy large swaths of it?

I’d sooner see China, Russia, India, the USA and the EU all competing over peaceful exploration and advancement than building newer, “better” nukes. (Just as much pork in any large-scale enterprise – it doesn’t have to involve building weapons.)

Probably never happen, given the institutionalised stupidity of the political classes, but I can dream…