Brrrr. Reading this blog entry about stalking set my teeth on edge. (Marginally NSFW link).
I’ve had my share of trolls, goofballs, and weirdos in my life sending me very uncomfortable emails and such. I’ve taken one seriously enough to call the FBI (it turns out to have been a spam of a sort), but I suspect many outspoken skeptics have had to deal with this at some level.
What a world. Threatened over ideas, threatened over actions, just threatened. Eternal vigilance.
If you went to BadAstronomy.com and found yourself here, never fear: the BA Blog has moved to its new home at Discover Blogs. The original BA site (with the Moon Hoax debunking and all that) is still online, too.
Phil Plait, the creator of Bad Astronomy, is an astronomer, lecturer, and author. After ten years working on Hubble Space Telescope and six more working on astronomy education, he struck out on his own as a writer. He has written two books, dozens of magazine articles, and 12 bazillion blog articles. He is a skeptic, and fights misuses of science as well as praising the wonder of real science.
Contact me: The Bad Astronomer "at" gmail "dot" com
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October 7th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Yikes! Just Yikes!
October 7th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Yikes is right. My husband had to deal with firing an OE recently; fortunately, Mr. OE left quietly, but one never knows.
The only thing worse than what poor Mr. R and his family had to go through would be if people became so terrified of sparking a potential stalking incident that the Mr. or Ms. OEs of the world were never fired, despite poor performance and other issues.
People should never be frightened into ‘forgiving’ incompetence or anti-social behavior.
October 7th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Wow, that’s scary.
And, by the way, you might want to put a language warning up by the link – there are one or two swear words at the top of the article. Doesn’t bother me, but because yours is a family friendly blog.
October 7th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
The company I work for had a similar incident a couple years ago. An employee that had only worked there for a short time was fired for sleeping on the job, showing up for work drunk and, oh, not performing the duties of his job. He proceeded, over the next several days, to make threats (via both email and phone calls) against the upper management – particularly the one that fired him. A couple of the employees were really freaked out by this guy. Thankfully, the threat of jail time did finally send him on his way.
I don’t think the bozo in our case was really a threat, just a nutcase. But it could have easily been different and I really feel for anyone that has to deal with stalkers of any sort.
October 7th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Good point Seamyst. Fixed it, thanks.
October 7th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
In the interest of lightening the mood (but not by making light of the topic), maybe this is a good time for me to relate how I prevented a possible stalker situation last summer.
I took the family back East to visit relatives. On the way there and on the way back, we spent time wandering around our old stomping grounds in the Denver area. One day, we decided to go to the Butterfly Pavilion in Westminster. We drove up Wadsworth to US Hwy 36. When we got to this exchange, I pointed West and told my six-year old that a certain Bad Astronomer lived not too far thataway. He said we should go see him. He was very insistent, but I replied, no, that wouldn’t be a good idea because it wasn’t polite to drop in on someone who doesn’t know you, etc., etc. — besides, I’m driving and we’re going thisaway. Situation solved, we had a great time at the Butterfly Pavilion and disaster was averted. I, however, am still being held ransom to the tune of 5 million impossible-to-answer questions per day!
October 7th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
It’s often not the clearly deranged ones that are the most dangerous. At least you can see them coming.
An acquaintance of mine, one who seemed to be a quiet, peaceful family guy, appeared to have been thinking about going after a number of doctors (whom he thought were conspiring against him) when he killed his wife and committed suicide. He left behind a rifle and a list of names and home addresses.
And just recently a friend of a friend broke up with a guy (the first she had dated in years) and within a couple of days was round her house with a gun and shot her, before killing himself. No warning signs, nothing. Fortunately, she survived the attack, and he’s no longer a threat.
And I don’t live in a particularly dangerous city. Really!
October 7th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Fortunately, neither I or anyone close to me has had to deal with such a situation. Thanks for the link, Phil. Some interesting stuff on stalker behaviour there.
October 7th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I have met one stalker, though I don’t think she was the dangerous type. But she does seem to confirm the recommendations listed in the article.
A number of years ago, a friend of mine from the UK was skydiving at De Land, Florida while on an extended business trip. He got friendly with a woman he met there (but not as a girlfriend) to the point where he was invited to her mom’s house where she promptly went topless in the hot tub (and no, she wasn’t a 20 year-old babe). My friend, already going steady, realized things had gone a bit far, backed off, but she would continue to email him, phone him every evening for hours, and even traveled 200 miles to see him off at the airport. All this after he’d introduced his long term girlfriend to her.
I kept telling him to stop answering the calls, but he didn’t want to upset her, so they kept on coming. Once the calls and letters and emails kept coming even after he was back in the UK, he finally decided to cut her off completely. Sure enough, after a few weeks, things finally stopped. I guess being on another continent was a big help in this case.
October 7th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Uh… yes, these things happen. But isn’t it a little ‘drama queen’ to claim that this is a ’skeptic’ problem? It’s anyone’s problem, as demonstrated by your very article – a humble businessman and a sacking gone sour! Not a skeptic-slogan anywhere! Even those few examples here talk about personal relationships, which hardly push the ‘it’s the lot of the skeptic’ barrow.
To turn it into some grandiose ‘let’s all be eternally vigilant about the skeptic message’ really misses the point. Groups like atheists, secularists, libertarians are WAY more out there in the public eye and speaking out and making a change in comparison. Stands to reason. When skeptics actually start really touting a message that isn’t just another small fish in a much bigger pond of consumer awareness in general, then maybe we can start claiming we’re that critically useful. Or even politically influential, which we aren’t. Until then, we’re really not able to say we’re more ‘important’ than anyone else who can get harrassed. A few websites, podcasts and an annual conference speaking to the choir – just don’t cut it.
And regarding the blog comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogger’s_Code_of_Conduct – you might want to refer to that in future as it did come from the Kathy Sierra case:
“O’Reilly and others came up with a list of seven proposed ideas:
1. Take responsibility not just for your own words, but for the comments you allow on your blog.
2. Label your tolerance level for abusive comments.
3. Consider eliminating anonymous comments.
4. Ignore the trolls.
5.Take the conversation offline, and talk directly, or find an intermediary who can do so.
6. If you know someone who is behaving badly, tell them so.
7. Don’t say anything online that you wouldn’t say in person.”
October 7th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
I hope I’m not considered a troll or a goofball, although I take weirdo as a compliment generally.
October 7th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
I wonder if it’s possible for a stalker to recognize when they’re in the ‘loop’ and untrigger themselves. I’m betting not.
October 7th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
I just finished reading that long post… WOW. I know that if it would’ve been me I would have had one heck of a paranoid time getting through this.
Background checks are so useful. My old employer got a bad surprise when he didn’t make one. After I left he hired a woman to replace me that was a con artist – she’d get jobs and always steal from the cash register, then when she’d get stuck she’d say she would refund everything and then just vanish in thin air…
So many crazy, bad willed people out there… You HAVE To be careful about who you hire!!
October 7th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Thanks for posting this. Hopefully no one I know of will ever have to deal with something like this. It’s interesting that the suggestions go against most people’s first instincts.
Peace, Love & Good Happiness Stuff,
Yale
“The three hardest tasks in the world are neither physical feats nor intellectual achievements, but moral acts: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, ‘I was wrong.’” – Sydney J. Harris (1917–1986)
October 7th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
One word:
Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepy…
October 7th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
Well, if you are outspoken in public forums and write letters to the editor of newspapers, you will get harassed. I was getting religious tracts in the mail annonymously for a long time. Then they started showing up on my car! I reported it to the police (they obviously knew where I lived) but was told since there was no “threat” they couldn’t do anything. One officer even told me if I was Christian, this wouldn’t be happening!
My experiences were mild, fortunately. However, they were clearly politically motivated. They always showed up after I got a letter to the editor published (usually on evolution or gay rights) and intended to shut me up.
October 8th, 2007 at 12:12 am
Just wondering what kind of psychological studies and definitions have been made from stalking for injury, besides the described profile types?
I’ve experienced a somewhat violent episode with at least one person whose mind always translated fear into anger (a long story mostly involving a Halloween haunted house, volunteer ‘ghosts’, assault with injuries, the police, and a court case that ended with medical bills and an agreement to never enter another “haunted house” again).
Otherwise he was a cool and funny person, but would go almost ballistic if he was in any kind of anxious, scary or frightening situation. He just didn’t react like almost all the rest of us would.
I’ve known one other person, as well, who reacted to fear with anger (but not drastically like the previous one).
Could there be people who might alternatively react to disappointment or unhappiness with anger as well? IOW, the more unhappiness they experience, the more anger leading to rage and a deep down desire to hurt the individual that led to their feelings?
I’ll admit, there would have to be additional deep-rooted psychological problems involved if they also could care less who else they hurt (or how severely) along the way to get to their target(s).
(Which to me is entirely stupid and makes me want to lock them away from society completely with only the bare necessities required for living. Some people are able to change their behaviors via introspection and intelligence, some never can or refuse to. The latter can rot, AFAIC.)
October 8th, 2007 at 7:49 am
In my opinion, psychological profiling doesn’t generally work. It’s essentially educated guesses; a large percentage may succeed, but others fail miserably.
For a period, when I was in love with someone, I fit the stalker’s psychological profile to a great extent, yet never exhibited stalker-like behaviour (well I can’t control my feelings but I can control my actions!) yet now that I do exhibit stalker-like behaviour (yes, I’m sure you’re shocked; actually, I feel that’s his problem, not mine… what can I say, I’m evil) I don’t see myself anywhere in there. I could just go on causing trouble to the guy for the rest of his life, and I’ve no desire to see him or hear from him. Actually, my goal is to scare him so much he’ll disappear and I’ll never have to see his face again.
Now I’ll leave you to get back to my plans to find out where he lives and murder both his pet parrots while he’s out.
October 8th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Marlayna, it sounds like you’re not a stalker, but rather want revenge. Good luck!
October 8th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Without going into details, I picked up a stalker a few years ago; she very quickly made my life almost unbearable, including contacting many of my clients and making up the most outlandish stories about me (which they knew me well enough to dismiss out of hand, fortunately). U called the police, but they really couldn’t help, even though they wanted to. The advice given—avoid ALL contact with the person, even emails demanding the behavior stop—is VERY hard to follow but DOES work. One’s only hope with these people is that their attention will shift elsewhere.
ANY contact just inflames their stalking.
October 8th, 2007 at 10:25 am
A most valuable and timely article for all of us who have something to say that does not flow with the typical stream. I wish I had read this years ago when I responded to some hate mail for a newsletter I write (one that is very mild in content and outlook). As the big male who has worked as a bouncer, I threatened to stomp him, which would be difficult since I had no idea who he was, and of course, that just thrilled him to make more threats. I wised up and stopped my end of it and he gave up. Oh, yes, I still want to make a puddle out of him but we do have to move on.
October 8th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Marlayna, I hope you are joking. Get some help. Professional help. For your own sanity, whatever happened, get over it. Harrassing the guy will not improve your life. You’re obsessing, and the obsession isn’t healthy.
October 8th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Actually, Irishman, I am doing very well in my life. I have passed most of my exams, I study and I get along fine with people. I don’t think about him all the time, though it’s always in the back of my head to find new things to do to him. It’s my game, my rules; if I play my cards right, it’s his life that’s going to be messed up, not mine. So I see no need to get any sort of “help”.
October 8th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
I was over at rottentomatoes.com to look at reviews for In the Shadow of the Moon and to find out if it was playing anywhere near me and the discussion forum seems to have been taken over by a moon hoax idiot. He used this clip as “evidence”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu6KN89seAs
and here’s another Bart Sibrel/Buzz Aldrin confrontation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu6KN89seAs
It’s obvious that Neil Armstrong thought of that guy as a nut, possibly a stalker. It was weird to read this after seeing that.
Off topic, has anyone seen this movie and is it worth driving to Milwaukee from the Chicago suburbs? I was hoping that if it wasn’t in a local theater it would be showing at the Adler Planetarium, Museum of Science and Industry, or the Cernan(!) Space Center but alas…
October 12th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
I wonder if it’s possible for a stalker to recognize when they’re in the ‘loop’ and untrigger themselves. I’m betting not.
Sometimes it is… it depends on both their underlying issues and, sometimes, how far they’ve gone into “crazy space”. Somebody who’s in a psychotic state, or a projecting obsessive, is likely to lose all ability for self-examination; there’s not much you can do about that sort besides external restraints.
But some autistic types, or other poorly socialized sorts, can also show stalker-like behaviors. In these cases, it’s not because of obsession or delusion as such, but because they don’t understand various “rules” of social constraint. On the other hand, their offenses are going to be much milder and less threatening than the “hardcore” sorts — stuff like repeated calls, unwanted gifts, or unannounced visits, rather than threats, destruction, or violence. (Voyeurism or exhibitionism is also a possibility, as they may not be aware how threatening the victim will consider those.)
In those cases, it’s possible for somebody they trust to sit them down and explain “people don’t do that, and if you keep this up, they’ll consider you a crazy person”. Sometimes even the victim could do that, but it’s wiser for them not to bet that a stalker isn’t one of the real crazies. Better to get someone else, someone who can remain calm and project certainty while staying alert enough to evaluate how the offender’s responding. (Note that “word salad”, blatantly fantastic delusions, etc., are pretty reliable signs of psychosis, so at that point you don’t bother.)
Marlayna would seem to represent one of the most dangerous sorts: A generally coherent person capable of reality-testing, but with a vindictive obsession. Unfortunately, such people tend to block out or project anything contradicting their obsession, (”…I don’t see myself anywhere in there…”) so there’s not much that can be done to cure them.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I note reading the article, that they are considering one particular kind of stalker, obsessed in particular with “contact” and provocation, as the only sort. That of course is just wrong — as with other antisocial behaviors, many different “issues” can produce similar types of behavior.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:18 am
@David Harmon: First you claim that I “block out” or “project” things, then you admit that the article was wrong after all.
So next time don’t insult people unless you’re sure.
October 15th, 2007 at 8:01 am
Incidentally, I’d like to share with you a recent success on that front.
Just today, I bumped on my victim over at the university. I made sure he saw me, checked which class he was in, left for my own class and came back afterwards to have my fun.
I followed him around, not in such an obvious manner that other people would notice, but he sure did. He was with his friends and though he pretended not to pay attention to me, he couldn’t hide his nervousness. Then at some point I didn’t have eye contact, and figured he’d leave. I didn’t go over there; I thought I’d give him the chance to “lose me”, since I had other things to do. So I waited a minute, then I went over, and sure enough he’d grabbed the chance to leave. Oh well, I thought, game over.
So then I went to ask the secretary something, but she hadn’t opened the drapes yet. So I figured I’d spend some time in the computer lab nearby, since it was free use hours. I go in and surprise, there he is! WOO-HOO, round 2! Again, I made sure he saw me, and sat at a computer right opposite. When he left, I followed right behind him. He was with some friends.
Then a problem posed itself. I wasn’t going to follow him home; not that it wouldn’t be fun, but I had better things to do. I didn’t want to turn back either, because that would show I wasn’t that determined. I had to “lose him” somehow…
But then my hapless victim solved my problem himself. At one point, one of his friends came up to me and demanded “angrily”: “Why are you following me?”
What an obvious setup! What a transparent ruse! But it was just what I needed. I stopped there “annoyed”. “I’m not following you, go away” etc etc. My victim was of course walking as fast as he could, and his buddy was buying him the time he needed to get away. After that (and while my victim’s friend was watching) I looked “in dismay” to the direction my victim had left, and “pissed off” I went the other way.
I had to hold in my laughter for a while, but when I had walked a safe distance, I allowed myself to snicker… then laugh, as I went out of sight.
The whole thing made my day.
I’m so proud of myself! I’ve never felt so STRONG in my life. The power to intimidate the one that has hurt your feelings… priceless! I’m telling everyone!
Oh and don’t feel sorry for him. He has done horrible horrible things to me, trust me…
October 15th, 2007 at 8:02 am
See, that’s what I mean by “my game, my rules”
October 15th, 2007 at 11:07 am
Marlayna, it doesn’t matter what he did to you. If you were in America, what you are doing would be illegal, and if someone did it to me, I would not hesitate to prosecute them.
I ask that you stop posting about your “game” on this board, and I suggest, as others have, that you seek professional help.
October 20th, 2007 at 1:57 am
Following someone around inside a building isn’t enough to be legally considered stalking, especially when you’re supposed to be there in the first place… but still, legal matters aside, I won’t post any followups since you don’t want me to. It’s your blog. If you really think my posts could be trouble for your blog, feel free to delete everything I’ve posted in this thread and we’ll just forget about it.
(And sheesh, I don’t need help. You don’t know me well enough to say things like that.)