Glad to hear you do not hate “Christians.”

I accept your definition of evil as those that lie and cheat. Knowingly spreading that which is not true as truth may surely be defined as evil.

However, this country was not based on the separation of religion and state, but church and state. It is an important distinction. Church and state can and should be separated, but it is impossible to separate religion and politics. That is because how you see life inevitably affects how you think government should be run. Replacing Christianity with imposed atheism is oxymoronical, it is also against the founders declared and undeclared intentions. This is another argument for which I just don’t have time.

I’m not sure what you mean by creationism. If you mean in a literal 6,000 year creation, then no I do not believe that. If you mean in figurative time periods, then yes. Frankly, after reviewing many other religions explanation for how the Universe began, I am quite amazed how accurate the creation sequence is, yes I know there are some contradictions in light of current knowledge.

btw, I’m not sure who I was aiming at, but it was definitely aimed at those who hate on this site, which is pretty clear. I am glad if you, the moderator, are not one of them. In the end, you would only do your cause more harm than good if you did. The truth does not need hate, but it does need passion.

I do not believe there can be any argument that passion should come from the teaching that men should love one another, and that they should do to others as they would have done to themselves. That is the teaching upon which any democratic government should be based. Without virtue, there can be no freedom. That is because virtue is freedom (the opposite of vice). Self-responsibility would be another example of a prime virtue.

Whatever teachings promote virtue, promote freedom to varying degrees. The actual Latin translation is power to act; however, I am informed by an “atheist” theologian friend that poten liber and poten libre are also used in some ancient Biblical translations. The question is defining the virtues.

I have to get to work.

Thank you for clarifying your position. I would say merry Christmas if I didn’t think it would be taken badly. Peace will suffice.

xdrnit.

I have never said I do. I’ve never even implied I do. People have inferred it, but they’re wrong.

Creationism is not the same as Christianity. It is actually a minority belief system. Only a relatively small number of Christians believe in a literal creation 6000 years ago.

Second, I don’t hate all creationists. Perhaps I need to be more clear when I write. But it’s the promoters of creationism who, in many many cases, are the evil ones. The ones who lie, cheat, and politicize religion are the ones I fight against.

As far as evil: I think that breaking their own rules, becoming hypocrites, certainly q

Furthmore, I see “Christians” referred to as arrogant and sanctimonious, which I find highly ironic. Indeed, some “Christians” are, but so are some atheists. Indeed, it is the ultimate arrogance of atheists to proclaim themselves above the “religious” fray, when indeed they are a religion.

Until such time as I see definitive proof that there is no God, irrespective of whatever lack of proof that there is a God may be perceived, atheism too is based on faith, and on this site dogmatically so.

By the way, how can you definitively prove such a thing until at least you have an idea of everything there is to know? What percentage of the Universe do you think we currently comprehend? 50%? 10% 1%? How much more may we understand in another 1,000 years, 10,000 years… Scientist, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and… everything we know is a little knowledge.

Gentlemen, it would be more honest to simply say you do not know if there is a God or not than to say definitively that there is not one.

I grew up being taught that evolution was absolute fact and furthermore that it refuted the existence of God. I never doubted evolution until the past few years. At this point, I am simply not sure of the matter. Regardless, I do not see how it is mutually exclusive of the existence of a God.

Despite all the rhetorical references to science and how you are based on it, all science is based on faith. We start with the presumption that the universe is understandable. The scientific method is based on faith, performing experiments on the known to discover the unknown. You first start with a hypothesis, which is a guess, and you do that because you have faith you may find more of the truth, the way things are.

But, in the end, or should I say beginning, where did the Universe come from? How did just the right amount of matter and antimatter come together to create the big bang?

All this being said, as an admitted Christian, I certainly struggle in understanding Him, his actions, and more so His inactions. I would understand your feelings of His inactions in light of the world’s situation.

I do not have the time to come in here and get sucked into a fight, I am sorry there will be no rebuttals. I understand the accusations that will probably be leveled. I probably should have left well enough alone, not having the gargantuan time it would take to wage such a battle, but in the end for what? I have too many practical survival items to attend to. I am sorry for this, admittedly, somewhat rude behavior.

However, I could not pass on being astonished by the level of acrimony leveled against “Christians” by “atheists.”

Fortunately for myself, I have a better perception of atheists than what I see from those so called on this site.” I have good “atheist” friends, well more of the “I don’t know type.” They simply seek the truth and they are good people. Judging from the harsh, sweeping judgments and prejudgments leveled on the site, I don’t think I could say the same for this site.

Christians are not “evil” anyway, at least I don’t see how you could honestly label them so. If there is no God, there is no such thing as “evil.” If you use the term, then it is either done knowingly, and I must say devilishly so (pun intended), or ignorantly and contradictingly.

I would suggest that before you use the term evil, that you define what you think it to be. Then, I would question why you believe that to be so.

If it is not evil to kill unborn children, why is it evil to “force” a school to teach the possibility that the Universe was created? Why do you care? There is no passion in logic and science.

Irrespective, whatever your religion, peace.

xdrnit.

“Religion is a scourge on humanity. I too know many people whom I enjoy my relationship with and whom I respect but who are religious kooks. As far as I’m concerned trying to be “nice” and “respectful” of the their religion is like saying it’s ok for people to fly airplanes into buildings full of people.”

That doesn’t sound very respectful to me.

“The big problem with religion is that it preaches intolerance.”

Then I guess you were promoting tolerance of religion in your post?

“They picket funerals and cause misery to grieving families.”

I’ve only heard of the Phelps family doing that, myself. Even other religious fundies think they’re are nuts.

“And for those religion nuts who don’t agree with the extremists in their ranks, why aren’t you doing anything to stop them???”

An atheist happens to commit a crime. What are you doing to stop them?

“Any club I belong to that I actually care about I’m definitely going to say something to anyone whose actions are harmful to my club or make us look like a bunch of nuts before the public.

Reign in your fellow nut-cases.”

So religion is a club then. What one does, the responsiblity should be shared by all. Tell all your religious buddies that they are responsible for all crimes commited by any religious nut. See what kind of response you get.

devman1:

Considering your views of any “liberal”, you are the last person to claim bigotry. Plus, you think the advocation of creationism in schools is OKAY? You think it’s okay for schools to teach kids to be dumb?

“Hey CafeenMan, I guess human beings wouldn’t be able to find other excuses to act like humans if there was no religion then, huh?”

They surely would. If anyone thinks that I said that ridding the world of religion would also rid the world of evil then they didn’t get my point.

There would still be murder, rape, theft, pedophilia, etc.

When I was in the Army people liked to say, “It’s not the Army – it’s the people in it.” What’s the difference?

Same with religion.

The big problem with religion is that it preaches intolerance. Next to that is some people are so stuck on taking their various science-fiction texts (Bible, Koran, etc.) as absolute fact and want to keep us stuck in the bronze age.

I’d have far less problem with it if they wanted to move into a cave and inflict their ignorance only on themselves but they don’t do that.

They picket funerals and cause misery to grieving families. They wage wars on people who don’t think like they do. They try to legislate their personal morals on everyone else. They attempt to raise their children to be as ignorant and intolerant as they are.

And for those religion nuts who don’t agree with the extremists in their ranks, why aren’t you doing anything to stop them???

Any club I belong to that I actually care about I’m definitely going to say something to anyone whose actions are harmful to my club or make us look like a bunch of nuts before the public.

Reign in your fellow nut-cases. They don’t have the right to express their rights by infringing on everyone else’s.

(rolls eyes, then nods off to sleep)

Hey CafeenMan, I guess human beings wouldn’t be able to find other excuses to act like humans if there was no religion then, huh?

God’s pre-knowledge doesn’t mean he’s directing your actions. He just know what you’re going to do before you do. (Kinda like your mom.)

Epicurus’s old riddle presupposes this universe can exist without evil. It also assumes no good can come from evil. God created us to love, but we can only love by freely choosing to; that’s what love is. By giving us the choice to love, he had to give us the choice to not love. (At least that’s the best we humans can guess about someone great enough to create this awesome universe.) The “logic” that assumes God couldn’t have created evil, or “should” do something about it doesn’t wash. We can’t see the entirety of this creation, beginning to end, top to bottom, front to back, all at the same time.

To those blaming religion on evil make it sound like religion is a physical entity that goes around acting on its own. Religion, whichever flavor you speak of, is a belief system used by (some) humans. Some humans will use whatever means available, including religion, to justify their actions and achieve their goals. While there are parts of some religions that don’t, nearly all religions speak of doing good for others, caring for the marginalized, the widow, orphan, sick, poor, imprisoned. Judge the actor, not his motivation.

You could also try Popoff’s trick. Advertise free miracle water. Send tons of it out with letters saying that to please the lord send the recipient should send him (Popoff) money. Now if you send out enough something good is going to happen to someone (something bad too, but we don’t worry about that). They will think the good thing was because of the miracle water and send money. Popoff’s income is in the millions of dollars.

Isn’t that what the skepchick does when she undresses???

Religion is a scourge on humanity. I too know many people whom I enjoy my relationship with and whom I respect but who are religious kooks. As far as I’m concerned trying to be “nice” and “respectful” of the their religion is like saying it’s ok for people to fly airplanes into buildings full of people.

Religion is the enemy. It has no redeeming value whatsoever. Even if you count the good works they do the problems they cause far out-weighs it.

We don’t have to be nice about religion. We don’t have to respect any more than we would respect any mass-murderer or any person who supports him.

While saying all that I don’t rule out the possibility that there is a god. I don’t believe there is a god, but what do I know?

What I do know for a fact is that every religion is absolutely wrong about who God is, what he wants, etc.

Any god that could create the universe we live in doesn’t have the ego weakness we are presented with in various religious texts. And that’s jus the tiny tip of what’s wrong with everyone’s view of God.

War on Al-Quaeda is fair enough. Get Osama bin Laden and his criminal gang and that’s fine by me &well pretty much all the world. Theyattacke dyou that gies you the right.

But what it doesn’t do is give you the right to invade and attack places and people that are NOT Al-Quaida. Liker Iraq. Or Iran or Syria or anywhere AQ isn’t.

You can’t just declare an open-ended instantly futile, un~ending “War on Terror” because terror is an emotion not a nation or group. The second Bush Jr did that he – & the USA lost.

A _real_ “war on terror” would mean locking up Stephen King and banning ghost stories – its plain dumb.

You can’t even declare a “war on _terrorism_” because terrorism is just a method of warfare, a tactic used by numerous groups arguably incl. your own government.

Good luck catching Osama if he’s not already caught or killed – or dead from typhoid. Godo luck finisdhing off Al-Quaida -an farmore difficult yet also do-able task.

But please lets stop the dangerous & nedlessly confrontational fallacy that there’s any supposed “clash of Civilisations” or that “all terrorists are Muslims” because those are both false ideas with very nasty consequences for everyone.

Such bad judement -like ID /Creationism may not exactrly “doom” us but it sure makes life harder & worse.

“I do think Lousiana is doomed – because of global warming and the eventual extinction of Humanity and our Sun becoming a red giant star along time hence. In that sense we’re all doomed.”

I don’t necessarily mean that global warming will result in Humanity’s extinction – it may or may not. We may or may not wipe ourselves out throuh our own wars – nuclear & otherwise, technological accidents or pollution too. Orwe may be wiped out alot of otherways which theBAcan explain eg. Gamma rays, nearby Supernovae , attacking aliens, evolution to something else etc ..

My point is ID in Lousiana ain’t going to “doom” everyone. If it gets in, if tehGuv does decide to impose that nonsense it’ll be embarrassing, harmful, stupid and, hopefully, short-lived but there’ll be & are worse things. NOT that ID is good mind you …

That’s all.

“But dont let the libs catch anyone putting down a muslim, dont racial profile even though every terrorist attack against United States interestest [sic] have only been committed by arabs!”

Every terrorist attack? Get real mate! Five out of many other examples :

1) David Koresh & the Wacko Cult (wait was it Waco or Whacko or the Whackos of Waco?) NOT Muslim but a “christian” splinter

2) Tim Mcveigh & his group that bombed Oaklahoma – NOT Muslim but Christian – a Wrong-Wing pro-gun XNs inspired by Waco if I recall right ..

3) The anti-abortionist “every-sperm is sacred” doctor-murderers NOT Muslim but Christian – at least in Amercia.

4) The Unabomber, Ted K-something (forget exact spelling) NOT Muslim but a marxist (?) or was it libertarian (?) nutcase.

5) A Tamil Tiger (Sikh) funding professor arrested for supporting terrorism in newspaper reports a while ago – NOT Muslim.

Then there’s the trenchcoat mafia schoolkids of Columbine High, the other schoolyard sicko killers – none Muslim, few if any religiously motivated …

Moreover international terrorist groups include many non-Muslim but instead Christian or just nationalist organisations such as :

1) the Catholic IRA (Northern Ireland),
2) Tamil Tigers (Shikhs who actually first invented suicide bombings I’m pretty sure. Indira Gandhi -Indian PM in notably assassinated this way)
3) ETA (Basque Separatists)
4) Shining Path – Peruvian Leninist-Stalinist terrorists
5) Uganda’s “Lords Liberation Army” that kidnaps kids and uses themas children soldiers & child sex slaves. A brutal terrorist military group that follows some bizarre Christian-derived cult.

Now if we were really fighting a war against *Terror* (which we’re not incidentally) all those incl. the Wrong Wing Christian fundamentalist militias in the USA would be targeted -bombed, jailed, tortured etc .. rather than just the Muslim governmenst of Afghanistan, Iraq, other Arab and Islamic nations & Al Quaeda – which would be the legitimate target and seems to be the forgotten one.

I’m not Muslim – nor do I support any organised religion – I’m agnostic verging on atheist if you want to know. I’m not American either and think there’s much both right and wrong with your country. (Your government is one thing very wrong .. In my view.)

Getting back on topic :

I do think Lousiana is doomed – because of global warming and the eventual extinction of Humanity and our Sun becoming a red giant star along time hence. In that sense we’re all doomed.

I don’t think ID /Creationism is right … Idon’t think it helps anyone & it probably impairs education .. & the Governor of Lousiana willbe hurting his people to try and ram it into his states schools.

However, seriously folks, I don’t think we need resort to hysterical hyperbole over it either. For smart kids or lucky ones who know better, they’ll eitherlaugh it off or learnm fromits faults and ignore it. Most willprobably just not py attention – as most kids do with most subjects.

For the few (adults or children) who take ID seriously – well, they’ll be hurting themselves but then to be brutally honest they were probably never going to be genius’es anyway …

Wow. I wasn’t trying to start some sort of deep debate about free will, and I wasn’t saying that MY theology was the only one that made sense. If you look at the first part of the statement, I qualified my “only” with “IF we believe”. My point is that anyone who claims “proof” of the divine or supernatural has implicitly stated that we have no free will, which usually contradicts that person’s own philosophy. In a lot of ways I have more in common with the atheists than the YECs and IDers, I simply find that belief in an overall purpose to existence preferable to not believing so. If you like to spend your time creating logical mobius strips, that’s fine, but I don’t find them particularly appealing or productive. I’m not lazy or uninterested, but I’ve already been through that sort of thing myself and come to a theological position that I’m satisfied with.

I think for the most part the BA does a pretty decent job of limiting his attacks to particular beliefs rather than faiths in general, I just wish that the comments were as fair. The whole point of “faith” is that it can’t be proven or disproven, so let’s just agree to disagree and concentrate on those beliefs that are damaging and dangerous.

On the topic of whether or not Phil should write about things other than astronomy, I say: it’s Phil’s blog. He can write about whatever the hell he wants. If you don’t like it, find some other blog to read. Nobody here is even gonna notice you’re gone.

No, Dan, I wasn’t talking to you, there.

Keep in mind I’m just an average guy. My college degree is in computers, not theology. Great Christian thinkers have wrestled with the problem of pain and evil for 1000′s of years. If you’re really interested in reading more you might want to check out C.S. Lewis’ The Problem of Pain (http://www.amazon.com/Problem-Pain-C-S-Lewis/dp/0006280935/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0707919-9904058?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193973716&sr=8-1).

Some points that come to my mind:

Don’t you think free will is a gift? Evil didn’t have to exist, it wasn’t a must. But that kind of side steps the issue because God knew evil/pain/suffering would come of free will.

God as Christ also experienced evil/pain/suffering. Were not talking about an uninvolved outide party here.

God has not allowed evil to grow unrestrained. He as worked to limit its growth through the ages. That’s part of the reason he’s killed a LOT of folks. And everyone dies. It’s not an if, but a when.

God wanted free will so people could choose to follow him. Mindless robots can’t enter into a relationship freely.

All the pain/suffering/evil will bring about a greater good that will be worth it – it’s not pointless.

You may want to read a bit more about the subject here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html