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	<title>Comments on: More opinions on ISU and Guillermo Gonzalez</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: A clarification about the pending Gonzalez lawsuit, for Bad Astronomy [Neurotopia (version 2.0)] &#183; New York Articles</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58378</link>
		<dc:creator>A clarification about the pending Gonzalez lawsuit, for Bad Astronomy [Neurotopia (version 2.0)] &#183; New York Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58378</guid>
		<description>[...] over at Bad Astronomy has it a bit backwards, but hey it&#8217;s not his fault. He didn&#8217;t have to sit through that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over at Bad Astronomy has it a bit backwards, but hey it&#8217;s not his fault. He didn&#8217;t have to sit through that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NGC 3314</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58377</link>
		<dc:creator>NGC 3314</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58377</guid>
		<description>Following up on Davis&#039;s comment - at typical state universities, the tenure review process starts with the faculty in the applicant&#039;s department (who would not only usually by very familiar with his/her research and teaching, but will have to work with the applicant for decades if tenure is granted). The department chair often submits a separate recommendation. Then these are included with a recommendation from a college-wide committee, which then gets passed up to the highest academic officer (often the provost). In an interesting twist, the final decisions on tenure and promotion (which typically happen at the same time) are often made by different officers of the University, since one is an employment (financial) decision and the other is nominally an academic issue.

On TheBlackCat&#039;s remarks about research support - there are some (a few?) areas of astronomy where one can remain in the research game without external funding. You can usually swallow the expense of a meeting or observing run per year. However, publishing the results is a lot harder with the expense of page charges, and you will definitely not be supporting graduate students (not to mention contributing to the departmental slice of overhead money, much of which does in fact support research infrastructure such as computers, library acquisitions, and electronic journal access). On top of these factors, universities claim to be very impressed with the recognition of research prowess provided by obtaining funding via nationally peer-reviewed proposals (no matter how many times the people at the NSF say they&#039;re tired of being de facto parts of every tenure review in th ecountry in science, it still goes on). That said, the typical funding levels vary a lot across the discipline - if you build gizmos and have to employ technicians and equip a lab as well as support students, that costs a lot more than doing theory where the major expenses are student support and travel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following up on Davis&#8217;s comment &#8211; at typical state universities, the tenure review process starts with the faculty in the applicant&#8217;s department (who would not only usually by very familiar with his/her research and teaching, but will have to work with the applicant for decades if tenure is granted). The department chair often submits a separate recommendation. Then these are included with a recommendation from a college-wide committee, which then gets passed up to the highest academic officer (often the provost). In an interesting twist, the final decisions on tenure and promotion (which typically happen at the same time) are often made by different officers of the University, since one is an employment (financial) decision and the other is nominally an academic issue.</p>
<p>On TheBlackCat&#8217;s remarks about research support &#8211; there are some (a few?) areas of astronomy where one can remain in the research game without external funding. You can usually swallow the expense of a meeting or observing run per year. However, publishing the results is a lot harder with the expense of page charges, and you will definitely not be supporting graduate students (not to mention contributing to the departmental slice of overhead money, much of which does in fact support research infrastructure such as computers, library acquisitions, and electronic journal access). On top of these factors, universities claim to be very impressed with the recognition of research prowess provided by obtaining funding via nationally peer-reviewed proposals (no matter how many times the people at the NSF say they&#8217;re tired of being de facto parts of every tenure review in th ecountry in science, it still goes on). That said, the typical funding levels vary a lot across the discipline &#8211; if you build gizmos and have to employ technicians and equip a lab as well as support students, that costs a lot more than doing theory where the major expenses are student support and travel.</p>
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		<title>By: Davis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58376</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58376</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;ISU Physics &amp; Astronomy faculty are state employees and their â€œacademic freedomâ€ to deny tenure to a colleague is not an absolute right, the elitism of some academicians notwithstanding.&lt;/i&gt;

Nice straw man.  The argument being made (by Phil and friends) is that GG&#039;s academic work was insufficient to earn himself tenure.  Faculty are well within their rights to deny tenure to colleagues who fail to meet the department&#039;s standards.  Tenure tends to be difficult to obtain -- you don&#039;t get it for being a nice guy, or even for good work done a few years back.  GG is just another piece of roadkill on the road to academia; there are lots of us out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>ISU Physics &amp; Astronomy faculty are state employees and their â€œacademic freedomâ€ to deny tenure to a colleague is not an absolute right, the elitism of some academicians notwithstanding.</i></p>
<p>Nice straw man.  The argument being made (by Phil and friends) is that GG&#8217;s academic work was insufficient to earn himself tenure.  Faculty are well within their rights to deny tenure to colleagues who fail to meet the department&#8217;s standards.  Tenure tends to be difficult to obtain &#8212; you don&#8217;t get it for being a nice guy, or even for good work done a few years back.  GG is just another piece of roadkill on the road to academia; there are lots of us out there.</p>
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		<title>By: forrest noble</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58375</link>
		<dc:creator>forrest noble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58375</guid>
		<description>They should leave these IDers alone. Our Constitution allows that anybody can believe whatever BS they want to. I think people should pick on others there own size-- leave the mental midgets alone. That s what makes life interesting-- whacco here, whacco there!!

Oh well, I hope he ll -------get tenure next time around? NOT!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should leave these IDers alone. Our Constitution allows that anybody can believe whatever BS they want to. I think people should pick on others there own size&#8211; leave the mental midgets alone. That s what makes life interesting&#8211; whacco here, whacco there!!</p>
<p>Oh well, I hope he ll &#8212;&#8212;-get tenure next time around? NOT!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Sergeant Zim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58374</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergeant Zim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58374</guid>
		<description>Robertson claimed that God would destroy Dover, Gov. Perdue called for State-sponsored prayer to end the drought - - hmmm what do these have in common?





Oh yeah, Dover is still perfectly intact, and the drought rolls on, essentially unabated (we&#039;ve had a couple of insignificant drizzles).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robertson claimed that God would destroy Dover, Gov. Perdue called for State-sponsored prayer to end the drought &#8211; - hmmm what do these have in common?</p>
<p>Oh yeah, Dover is still perfectly intact, and the drought rolls on, essentially unabated (we&#8217;ve had a couple of insignificant drizzles).</p>
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		<title>By: The Centipede</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58373</link>
		<dc:creator>The Centipede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58373</guid>
		<description>&gt; By the way, I just checked: Dover is still standing.

LAST TIME I CHECKED, PAT ROBERTSON DIDN&#039;T CUT MY PAYCHECKS.

--God</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; By the way, I just checked: Dover is still standing.</p>
<p>LAST TIME I CHECKED, PAT ROBERTSON DIDN&#8217;T CUT MY PAYCHECKS.</p>
<p>&#8211;God</p>
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		<title>By: Lugosi</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/comment-page-1/#comment-58372</link>
		<dc:creator>Lugosi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/12/05/more-opinions-on-isu-and-guillermo-gonzalez/#comment-58372</guid>
		<description>You just hit the nail on the head. Intelligent Design proponents claim it&#039;s not a religious thing. But when the the people of Dover, PA voted out the pro-ID school board, Pat Robertson said that God would unleash his vengeance on the town.
Well, if ID has nothing to do with religion, why would God care one way or another?
By the way, I just checked: Dover is still standing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You just hit the nail on the head. Intelligent Design proponents claim it&#8217;s not a religious thing. But when the the people of Dover, PA voted out the pro-ID school board, Pat Robertson said that God would unleash his vengeance on the town.<br />
Well, if ID has nothing to do with religion, why would God care one way or another?<br />
By the way, I just checked: Dover is still standing.</p>
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