365 days left… unless the Constitution gets suspended.
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Phil Plait, the creator of Bad Astronomy, is an astronomer, lecturer, and author. After ten years working on Hubble Space Telescope and six more working on astronomy education, he struck out on his own as a writer. He has written two books, dozens of magazine articles, and 12 bazillion blog articles. He is a skeptic, and fights misuses of science as well as praising the wonder of real science.
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January 21st, 2008 at 10:57 am
In addition to trying to come close to fulfilling any promises put forth in the campaign, the next President will mainly have to preside over a clean-up crew Cabinette and also fumigate the Whitehouse.
I have a friend who has a George Bush countdown clock, running down to the last second remaining that he’s the appointed President.
January 21st, 2008 at 10:57 am
*cough Leap year cough* (Or were you implying it’ll be suspended the day before he leaves office…?)
January 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am
That’s a big ‘unless’.
I’ve felt for a long time that the US democracy is only one more 9/11 type terrorist attack away from disaster.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:14 am
Unfortunately, until we see the results from the Republican primary in a few days time, we won’t know for sure if the situation will improve once Bush leaves town. While it seems unlikely, a strong showing for Rudy Giuliani is still possible, and if he wins the nomination and people vote “anyone but Clinton” then we could be in for a world of hurt in 2009.
All the worst of Bush’s neocon advisors are on Giuliani’s team.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:17 am
Infophile, you’re forgetting that today is the 21st – and inauguration is the 20th. So, with the leap year, it’s 365 days from *today*.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:26 am
Christian, I think American democracy is far to strong to fail on the event of another 9/11-scale attack. Sure it’s taken a hit since 9/11 and would do again next time, if it happens, but I don’t think we should get things out of proportion. America has survived a Civil War that was orders of magnitude worse than anything Al Qaida is likely to throw at us.
There will always be politicians who take advantage of the chaos and fear caused by terrorism but the democratic institutions are robust enough to survive what will eventually be seen as a short-term blip.
Just look at a country like Israel. Despite pressures from outside and within far greater than the USA has experienced in decades, they are still a functioning democracy. And Britain came though two major wars in the 20th century with its democratic institutions intact, even strengthened.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:42 am
9/11 isn’t the issue. I don’t want to be insensitive but considering the size and will-power of our country 9/11 was just a scab on the knee after falling off your bike.
The issue is whatever power Bush would seize if another 9/11 type thing happened. While I don’t see him doing it or getting away with it for long if he did, a lot of people think he might crown himself as President for as long as he wants and declare martial law.
I think that’s pretty far-fetched to be honest but if it did happen and it wasn’t quelled quickly it could easily lead to American Civil War v2.0.
And while that’s even farther fetched Bush can still do a whole lot of damage to this country in a year’s time.
Frankly, I don’t think any of the candidates running are true statesmen. I don’t see any Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson types in the mix.
That makes me wonder what their motives are to become president. I mean who would want to inherit this mess?!?!
A statesman would because he’d want to clean it up and make American right again. But I don’t see that ideal in any of the candidates. I think we’re in a situation of picking a least worst candidate.
In the mean time any of you who believe prayer works might want to pray that Bush takes a lot of vacations this year and stays out of trouble.
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January 21st, 2008 at 11:53 am
365 days until we get another useless president, the problem is not with the office it’s with the system. With the current two party system and “do anything to get a story” media you would have to be crazy to run for president, gone are the days of the Jefferson, Lincolns and Roosevelt’s because anyone with their intelligence is smart enough not to run for the mockery known as the presidency.
January 21st, 2008 at 11:58 am
365 more days for Bush to start WWIII. Nice.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Yes, Steve, let’s not blame our corrupt, evil president; let’s blame a free press.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Yeh Daffy. Lets ignore the information averaging caused by a commercial press cutting corners to stay afloat and instead believe that everything bad came from a single man. Oh wait, thats the angle the press always take anyway. Enjoy your new president, I’m sure he or she will be an angel.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Sad to say, but our only chance may be either a candidate who is absolutely straight with the voters as to the mess we are in and what needs to be done to fix it (fat chance) or a candidate willing to say whatever it takes to get elected, then do whatever it takes to fix it (another fat chance). In short, I feel that we are doomed!
January 21st, 2008 at 12:28 pm
That was not my point, my point was that the most talented minds in the country no longer dream about becoming the president any more. Look at the Clinton incident, Clinton did nothing worse than what JFK did but because of the two party system and a news hungry media the whole incent got blown way way way out of proportion.
Negative stories sell, is that the Medias fault? No, but how does getting a hummer make Clinton a better or worse president? It made him a worse president because he had to spend more of his time dealing with the Media on a non-issue than a man of his importance ever should. Report on the issues that effect he nation, leave the presidents personal issues as personal issues.
How can the office have any respect when the opposing party focus more on trying to find skeletons in the presidents closet then they do on making the country a better place to live. The parties no longer care about what’s right for the country they only care about the amount of the country that they have control over.
I’m not a Bush fan but to be honest I’m not a fan of any of the people running in 08 either.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
@Steve, @Ken -
Blame the press. Blame the system. Don’t vote. Whatever happens, it’s not your fault. You choose not to fight for it, so it’s no longer your democracy. Apathy and cynicism mean you let others choose for you. I hope you enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Enough with the trolls. We now return to our regularly scheduled activism for democracy and astronomy.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
As for the suspension of the constitution, we have a lot more rights than any of us would have had during the Civil War – some of what is said today could have gotten you locked away without a trial, or even banished (as at least one person famously was). And, need I remind you, the man that took these rights for the duration of the war is now looked upon as one of the best presidents this country has ever had. I don’t imply that Bush might be one of the best, but that maybe we should withold our final judgement of his presidency until we have a proper historical view of it – say 50 to 100 years from now
January 21st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Some of you people are down right pathetic. It is, however, fun to hear you all, freely complaining about how your freedoms are restricted. It seems to occur to noe of you that, if that were the case, you could not speak your mind. Like some one in Venezuela, or Cuba.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Ah right, my bad. Just assumed the inauguration was this date, and that this article was also written today. Goes to show the importance of checking your assumptions.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:40 pm
USA WILL fall if we are willing to let it.
I can’t wait to see Bush walk out white house on my birthday. Yes, presidents change office on Jan 20, my birthday.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Guys my only point about the media was that it keeps the most talented people from running for the office. Im not saying that they are the reason why Bush was a horrible pres.
I do vote but is always for the lesser of two evils and im sick of it.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:43 pm
The single most qualified republican currently running is a racist and a creationist who attracts gun nuts.
The most qualified democrat (who has a chance) is thouroughly against taking money from lobbyists, but not from lobbyists’ friends or wives, or from “lobyists.”
I’m going to go practice my German. Auf weidersehen.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:47 pm
unless the Constitution gets suspended.
You thinking Bush as the next wannabe Caeser, well Caeser had a preemtive war before the Gauls could attack Rome, Caeser was an aristrocrat, Caeser was intelligent. One out of three not bad for Bush.
I hope Bush does not turn the US into the next Rome they tended to attack their neighbors before their neighbors could attack them.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Pun intended?
The democracy in the US (and to a lesser extent Western Europe) is in quite a fragile state for two reasons: 1) The media no longer know how to make sense of world events since communism collapsed, and as a result either have to ask the public, and/or resort to Britney stories; 2) The US (and also Western Europe, for that matter) has become a decadent society, where politics has taken a back-seat to plain old hedonism and consumerism.
Politicians are quite happy with this, because it means they can get away with murder (in the case of Bush quite literally). The comparison with Isreal and Brittain during WWI and WWII is not accurate: In Israel they have real problems affecting all citizens: no widespread decadence there. Also in Brittain during both world wars, there was no decadence.
Another 9/11 could well be the beginning of the end for the US as a democracy.
January 21st, 2008 at 12:59 pm
C’mon, Phil. You’ve got to be kidding me.
“unless the Constitution gets suspended” ?
This is the same kind of crap I heard the right-wing talking heads spewing when Clinton was still in office.
No excuses.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:05 pm
RE: Pieter Kok
“Pun intended?”
Ha not originally but hey it works!
January 21st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Wait, wait, wait… I thought the Constitution was already suspended? On many different occasions? Weren’t we doomed when habeus corpus was suspended?
I’m not sure if it’s Chicken Little or the Boy Who Cried Wolf which is more appropriate.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Just the thing we’d expect from the loony-liberal Independent (I notice that they don’t exactly live up to their name).
We shouldn’t be too hard on our British cousins. They’ve been hauled down the primrose path by the likes of Blair. They’re now the most heavily-surveilled people in the world. Even Joe Stalin didn’t come this close. I could summarise, but I’ll let a real Brit tell you how it went:
How Britain destroyed itself
If you think 4 years of Hillary and Bill are going to be a bed of roses, you’re in worse shape than I thought.
To add to what Christa said, if this is really a country of tyranny and oppression, why is Michael Moore still free to waddle around? Why is Jimmy Carter still free to roam the world, telling everybody how terrible we are. Why are Noam Chomsky, George Soros, MoveOn.org, and so on and on and on, still perfectly free to insult the one country in the world where they are able to do that?
In other words, people who think we’ve lost our rights, have lost their minds.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Too bad for all the no talents who made their careers out of making fun of Bush.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:19 pm
@Clair,
Bush has not felt constrained by any manner of restrictions (including laws) in the past. It’s unlikely that he would try to suspend the Constitution to maintain office, but Phil’s not out of line to offer it framed as a cheap shot.
Considering the list of Bush Administration transgressions so far, they’ve earned such cheap shots. And more.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:20 pm
At least when he’s not putting up cool pictures Phil is keeping us amused.
One good thing about our system is no one is president for life. And it’s not going to happen anytime soon either. I’ve seen no evidence that even strong supporters of W would stand for it if he tried. Of course the bad news is the next person may not necessarily be any better, even if now they look like they might be.
I also think looking back at history might be helpful. Look at things like the sedition act of 1918.
A planet spins in a silent void.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:29 pm
unless the Constitution gets suspended.
*sniff* *sniff*
Ah, I live the smell of hyperbole in the morning.
I hate Bush, but I will totally take any and all bets on this from the tinfoil hat crowd.
Yes, Steve, let’s not blame our corrupt, evil president; let’s blame a free press.
If the “free press” is run by ratings whores of questionable intelligence, why not? There’s plenty of blame to go around. Looking for a single target leads to madness.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:31 pm
@Hoonser,
Bush is his own worst enemy when it comes to looking smart/presidential/good. He can rarely complete a sentence without botching it.
So I grant you the point that it takes no talent to make fun of Bush: all you have to do is run tape of him speaking or riding a Segway. Add even the slightest editing and the hilarity grows exponentially.
But who’s on your list on no-talent Bush critics?
January 21st, 2008 at 1:32 pm
While I agree with your overall point, please quit with the right-wing talking points will you? Being critical of the US government’s actions, even in venues overseas, is not the same as “insulting your country” just because you don’t like what they’re saying.
And since when is the US the *one* country in the world where people can freely criticize their government? Name one country in Europe to the west of the old USSR border where you can’t? You should get out more.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Well, as a “real Brit” myself (whatever that means) I call BS. While it is true there are many, many surveillance cameras in the UK today (the vast majority of which are private security cameras and nothing to do with the government, by the way) it is utter, utter nonsense to compare the situation with Stalin’s Russia where one word of dissent put you at risk of being reported and deported to the gulag. Britain is still a free society, no matter what the fearmongers may say.
At the very most, one could argue that the traffic cameras, the speed-traps, and the city-center crime-prevention surveillance cameras *could* be used for suppression by the British government, but there is zero evidence of that happening. Sure, the advent of Islamic terrorism has complicated matters somewhat, and I am sure that some innocents have been caught up in surveillance programs designed to root out the would-be bombers, but again, this is nothing compared with Stalinist Russia. Such comparisons are beyond dumb.
January 21st, 2008 at 1:54 pm
@Dean
The statement was just as dumb as it was in 2000 in regards to Clinton.
I can’t wait to get this man out of office… And he /will/ leave office next January. Heck, he’s got to live until then. Remember the curse? or did Reagan break it by surviving his assassination attempt?
January 21st, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Just happened to read this elsewhere earlier today. Thought it kind of fit the conversation.
“In our brief national history we have shot four of our presidents, worried five of them to death, impeached one and hounded another out of office. And when all else fails, we hold an election and assassinate their character.”
— P. J. O’Rourke
January 21st, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Quiet_Desperation, given that Bush has effectively repealed the 1st and 4th Amendments, I hardly think “hyperbole” is the right word.
Plus, if Bush did suspend the entire constitution and declare himself president-for-life, I will bet you anything you care to name that not 1 Republican in 10 would even raise an objection…as long as it kept those pesky, evil “liberals” out of office.
Republicans as group love their party first, country second.
Steve, I am sorry you do not understand the vital role a free press (warts and all) plays in a Democracy. I am sorry…and very, very frightened that so many unenlightened Americans agree with you.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:06 pm
I’m all for free press and I do understand the impotence of it, I do however question the presses motives though. Ultimately the press is not looking to inform the public they are looking to sell papers or gain viewers, they ultimately a business. We the public are just as much to blame for buying, subscribing, and viewing the gossipy crap that they put out. I would never suggest the removal of free press.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
” I am sorry…and very, very frightened that so many unenlightened Americans agree with you.”
I don’t think that there should be removal of free press but I also never saw a poll, survey, census ect.. that shows that many Americans would like it as well. Can you please show the data that your going off of?
January 21st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Heh, we already had a President for life, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Emperor of the USA from 1933 to 1945, remember him?
He was quite a big fan of the Alien Enemies and Sedition Acts to the tune of 120,000 American citizens in Internment camps.
This was only 60 years ago, and the US is still around.
It’s kind of a joke that people actually think GWB is the worst thing to ever happen to the Constitution when example of Presidents doing FAR worse is pretty easy to look up.
He’s just another President that will go into retirement and be forgotten, not the next Julius Caesar plotting to overthrow the Government and declare himself King of the Realm.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Nice try, Steve.
“For the first time in our polling, almost half of those surveyed said they think the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees. About 49 percent said it gives us too much freedom, up from 39 percent last year and 22 percent in the year 2000.”
[url]http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=2621[/url]
January 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Daffy, you’ve picked a good screen name for yourself. I can think of better ones though.
“…given that Bush has effectively repealed the 1st and 4th Amendments,… ” Whatever. Like I said earlier look at things like the sedition act of 1918, or Canada with the current issues going on with their “human rights” commissions. Sure you can point out a few things that the current administration has done that you believe has crossed the line. But you could probably do that with every administration. Going from that to amendments have been repealed is one giant leap, even if you’re on the moon.
“For the past hour, I have my eyes fixed on the doors here,” he said. “You talk about fascism and police repression. In Germany when I was a student, they come through those doors long ago. Here they must be very slow.”
- Günter Grass
January 21st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
So whats your point that article is mostly about freedom of speech and not press.
The artcile even says that only 6% of the people find that it is unimportant to be informed by a free press.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:34 pm
and that 11% disagree that Newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of a story.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Ken,
Have you been asleep for the last 7 years? You should read more. Oh, that’s right, anything in the press in biased, liberal nonsense, right?
People held without charge or trial, illegal domestic spying, torture, airline blacklists with no chance to clear one’s name…well, maybe you’ll object to those things if a Democrat gets in.
January 21st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Oh, btw, Ken. I note with interest that in today’s column, Republican shill Rich Lowry blasts Clinton and Obama for their lousy economic stimulus proposal (and it is lousy) while saying not one word about Bush making the exact same proposal.
I love Republicans.
January 21st, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Well, Bush has already abolished science. Why not the Constitution, too?
January 21st, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Daffy, I guess when you’re talking about people being held without trial or charge you’re referring to enemy combatants, which are allowed to be held until the end of hostilities. I know the domestic spying stuff I’ve heard about involved debates over legalities. These were generally involving national security and the government’s ability to proceed and get the warrant later when time was of the essence. I read quite a few articles by lawyers on both sides of that issue. Not something I can say I have a full grasp of. Torture? Not sure that falls under the 1rst or 4rth amendments, but also a touchy subject. First we’d have to define what torture is. Then truthfully, I can’t say I’d be completely opposed to it if the victim was a scumbag and it saved lives. But then making sure it fits those criteria is the tricky part isn’t it? Glad it’s not up to me. Airline blacklists covers several things. I know of planes that have been diverted because of passengers on board. Entering the US is not a right and I think there are people we should keep out of the country. As for no chance to clear one’s name that’s something I haven’t heard has happened.
Most of these things you’ve mentioned we have heard about because someone stepped up and said I think this is wrong. And often it’s proceeded onto the courts where a correct decision has hopefully been made. I’m sure some things have slipped through though. And I hope people keep pointing them out when they see them, like they’ve been doing for as long as I can remember.
I don’t think my opinions change all that much no matter who is in the white house. We all have our biases though, it’s part of being human. Can’t say I’m too thrilled with either party really. And yes, one party blasting the other party for doing the same thing they’re doing is also stupid. And it also has been going on for as long as I can remember.
I was just telling a coworker I need to read more. So we also agree on that. Though there’s nothing in those statements that tells anyone how much I do read.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Phil, I expect that when there is an orderly transition of power to the next president in one year’s time, that you will take a good hard look at what this post says about you, and keep it in mind the next time you talk about global warming or pareidolia.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Phil, you may end up wishing for Bush when McCain takes power. If the election were held today, that’s who’d win. Romney takes all the states whose church leaders tell them to vote for him but McCain takes all remaining red states and ends up giving us ten more years of war (4 in Iraq plus one other conflict that lasts 2 years into the next Presidency) and the economic disaster that accompanies. Obama doesn’t have the internal political clout to ultimately achieve backing over Clinton. There’s no way Clinton can get elected because a)In Red States, to be just slightly politically aware is to know, for as fact, that Hillary is evil and embodies everything wrong with America. Based on what evidence? There doesn’t need to be any evidence. Just ask an average red stater why they won’t vote for Hillary and see what you get. b)A large percentage of voters will not vote for a woman. We may be one of the only major countries left where a woman hasn’t sat in at the top, but in America, women still don’t have the clout men do. As for Obama, he too will be the victim of non-issue based voting, If he happens to obtain party backing over Clinton, does anybody really believe redneck America will vote him in?
Look at the polls. What are the biggest issues we face? the environment? The fact that we are at a state of war instead of peace? Nope! The biggest issue, according to voters, is gas prices. Never mind what caused/causes gas prices to climb, never mind climate change…
My point is, with all the talk about the terrible job Bush did, is there somebody who could do a worse job and make Phil actually miss Bush? Keep in mind that, based on the last election a majority of voters think war is the preferred state and that climate change, indeed science itself, are not an issue.
(Yes, I’m feeling pensively pessimistic today.)
Very true that there have been some iffy presidents but for Bush to be forgotten is a loooong shot. For one, it’s difficult to compare a President of post-information post-globalization to one that was pre. The greatest deficit in the history of any country is, alone, enough for an entire chapter in the history books. Inventing intelligence in order to remove Saddam from power while disregarding membership consensus and then not ending the war once the goal was achieved, if forgotten, would be a complete waste of history if not earmarked and studied. Add in the redacting and censorship propaganda practices that surpassed Nixon and you can only pity a society that doesn’t remember this and learn from it.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:57 pm
366 days, Phil! 2008 is a leap year. I can’t believe you, of all people, missed this.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:58 pm
have you ever lived through a dictadorship??? i did, eleven years in my country: uruguay. so i’m nearly an expert!!! and i could tell you that bush is one (or the) worst presidents o U.S.A., but he does not have the clout of a dictador (neither chenney). please calm down, don’t worry be happy. and pray (ooopss!!! sorry) that your next presidente will be better…. she/he will be… but not much.
and jeffersonian: how end nixon???
P.S. one more cuestion: phil if you think that mr. (ooop!! sorry again) bush could be a dictador, ask for his empeachment???
January 21st, 2008 at 7:56 pm
It is absolutely staggering that a blog devoted to rationality and skepticism would print a post like this. This is something I’d expect from reptillian/chemtrail/truther garbage websites.
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:06 am
Among his other comments, Tacitus wrote :
“Just look at a country like Israel. Despite pressures from outside and within far greater than the USA has experienced in decades, they are still a functioning democracy.”
Wrong. Israel is nothing of the kind.
Israel denies the vote and treats as second class citizens – or worse – the millions of indigenous Palestineans human individuals living within its vastly expanded borders since the Israelis illegally invaded and occupied the Palestinean Territories.
Israel is hardly a functioning democracy but a terrible anti-democratic mix of :
1) Theocratic religious fundamentalist ruled state :
with one sect of rabbis being as bad as Tehran’s mad mullahs in dominating and dividing the nation on strict religious grounds. (Secular & Reform Jews among those NOT able to be equally married and treated fairly by the religious extremists) Heck, non-Jews (those not following a particular religion or having a particular set of ethnic ancestors) are NOT even allowed to live there while those tahtareof that priviledged elite get free rides and free services in.
2) Spartan style Brutal Military state :
with compulsory military service (except for useless Rabbinical students and ultra-orthodox nutters), brutalised soldier citizens too traumatised to accept their enemies are also humans and thuggish generals holding Political and cultural sway. Israel is a military basises and focused society and, again, like ancient Sparta, a terror to its abused rightful & original owners (the Palestineans) and its neighbours. (Most recently Lebanon but all the neighbouring Arab states have suffered from its vastly disproportionate aggression since its creation in the 1948 Nakbah or Catastrophe.)
&
3) Old White Apart-hate South African style Colonial Imperialist state :
White Racists vs Zionist racists – both Israelis and Afrikanners lorderd it over their majority victims who were the rightful inhabitants and split the nations populace into very unequally treated classes. Israeli settlers have their own fortified and strictly enforced roads, towns, site entrances and of course the Apartheid wall to enable them to impose their unwelcome presence on their Palestinean victims. The Palestineans, indeed, have it even worse than the Black South Africans because at least the West was aware of how bad things were and how clearly in the wrong the Racist SthAffy Whites were. They also took the appropriate measures in economic & sporting sanctions, diplomatic and cultural action etc .. The Palestineans, OTOH, are still demonised for having the temerity to resist the illegal Occupation of their land by the invading Zionist racists.
So Israel – far from being correctly & deservedly seen as a repellent neo-Fascist Racist state pariah – is given constant US funding, diplomatic support and military armament. More than that it even gets to control your nations & thus most Western nations foreign policy and media ..
Any nation that collectively punishes a whole population for the actions of a few resistence fighters – threatening to cut off power to hospitals keeping premature babies alive and killing innocent women and children in extrajudicial political assassinations – as Israel does – has something very rotten about it.
Any nation that would send in a bulldozer-cross-tank to crush to death a peaceful protester like Rachel Corrie trying to stop the demolition of homes of innocent families is plain evil.
Jewish-Americans, Neo-con Israeli apologists and the un~ or mis~informed American public may not like hearing these truths but Israel is no democracy but an evil, racist land of Jewish fundamentalist thugs and child-killers.
As for the Palestineans, despite the propagnda you’re force-fed by Jewish media barons, they are far, far more sinned against than sinning.
Like it or not, abuse me for telling you so or not, that’s plain fact.
Without Israeli’s wrongful creation in 1948 – with the West dividing up and giving away a country that was never rightly there to split apart and hand over – to salve their consciences over past European pogroms and holocausts it is very, extremely unlikely that the S-11 attacks would have ever happend and highly probable that the Western and Islamic worlds would NOT be at war but at peace.
Its my firm belief that the creation of Israel – rather than resettling Hitler’s victims in Germany, Poland and Europe generally & denying Hitler his ironic post-grave victory of Jews becoming Israeli nazis and Europe largely “judenrein” – will go down as one of the worst mistakes in Western history.
It is too late now, unfortunately, to totally eradicate that mistake and its terrible consequences for _all_ humans on the planet incl. the Jewish peoples themselves. But, at the very least, Israel should end its illegal occupation and give up the original 45 % of the Mandate of Palestine that was allowed the Palestineans in the 1947 UN partition plan. Israel must also accept at bare minimum, the full human rights, national soverignty and legitimate grievances of the Palestineans if there is ever to be peace.
If not then I hate to think what will happen to the humans on both sides and, indeed, our whole planet ..
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:09 am
PhilPlait noted 365 days untilteh Presikingship of Mad Bushj theLesser ends adding the dread caveat of : “… unless the Constitution gets suspended.”
Or perhaps unless the Democratic party finally gets the backbone to impeach and try the bastard for war crimes as should really have happened long ago maybe?
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:22 am
Why is it that President Clinton can face impeachment over a consensual sexual affair that killed no-one and caused only emotional damage to a handful of people yet Bush the Lesser can lie his nation into an illegal invasion and ocupation of an innocent nation, killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilian Iraqi’s and killing more Americans than died in the original 2001 Sept. 11th attacks – by Saudi Arabian terrorists -yet go unpunished?
If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts whenit come sto to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.
President George W. Bush along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other neo-conservative loons are guilty of the same war crimes that saw the Japanese war leaders of World War II convicted and executed.
I support the death penalty for war criminals like that – including Preisdent Bush the Lesser himself.
Amercia freed itself from King George III .. why have you lumbered yourself with another mad George — Bush II
Amercia has executed former Presidents eg. Saddam Hussein for such crimes. (Actually Saddam’s crimes were less serious than Bush’s.)
Bush himself as governer wasresponsible for executing people for far less serious offences than those he s -clearly -guilty of.
Whether after his term ends or before – through immediate impeachment then due trial – I propose President Bush faces the prospect of paying the ultimate price for tehmassmurderand illegal, counter-productive devastating war of aggression he launched on a lie and has lost.
Texas still has the death penalty doesn’t it? Try him there for oh, about 100,000 counts of aggravated mass murder, conspiracy to wage an aggresive war, 1000’s of countsof kidnapping, tortureand warcrimes over Guantanamo Bay and the illegal rendition program and treason to the US people over his ripping up the Constitution.
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:34 am
Typos correction :
If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts whenit come sto to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.
President George W. Bush along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other neo-conservative loons are guilty of the same war crimes that saw the Japanese war leaders of World War II convicted and executed.
I support the death penalty for war criminals like that – including Preisdent Bush the Lesser himself.
America you freed yourself from mad King George III ..
Why will you not free yourselves immediately from another mad George — Bush II?
Amercia has executed former Presidents eg. Saddam Hussein for such crimes. (Actually Saddam’s crimes were less serious than Bush’s.)
Bush himself as governor was responsible for executing people for far less serious offences than those he is – clearly – guilty of.
Whether after his term ends or before – through immediate impeachment then due trial – I propose President Bush faces the prospect of paying the ultimate price for the mass murder and illegal, counter-productive devastating war of aggression he launched on a lie and has, whether you accept it just yet or not, lost.
I say we try Bush the Lesser for oh, about 100,000 counts of aggravated mass murder, conspiracy to committ mass-murder by waging a needless war of aggression, 1000’s of counts of kidnapping, torture and war crimes over Guantanamo Bay and the illegal rendition program and treason to the US people over his ripping up the Constitution.
They still have the death penalty in Texas don’t they? Lets try him and fry him there!
————————-
‘Since it is impossible to coerce thought, the way to social harmony is to discuss conflict and pursue truth; the more people speak their minds freely, the more they are likely to be loyal citizens.’
– Jewish Dutch 17th C philosopher, B. Spinoza
“Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate.”
- Col. Charles Stuart during the American War of Independence, 1778.
“We cannot consider that the armed invasion and occupation of another country are peaceful or proper means to achieve justice and conformity with international law.”
- Quote from President Eisenhower (quoted in ’The Guardian weekly’, 2005 Jan 28th – Feb. 3rd .)
“There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies against despots – suspicion.”
- Demosthenes, Phillipics-2. [Collins Concise Dictionary of Quotations, P.108.]
“Protest : the alternative to complicity”
- Australian Greens Senator Bob Brown, quoted in ‘The Age’, 2004 May 15th.
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:36 am
Take III … :
If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts when it comes to to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:53 am
Yep. & the same should apply to all the neo-conservatives who pulled his Dubya’s strings too.
Tell me this any brave fans of Bush the Second & the Retardican Wrong who may be out there :
1) Clinton gets a blow job & faces impeachment …
But Bush invades and occupies another nation without good reason and doesn’t … ???
2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack Amercia on teh 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???
3) Israel we’re told by Bush and the Relig. Wrong always has a right to defend itself … but the Palestineans, Lenbanese and Iranians don’t???
4) Saddam murders thousands of his own people and is executed for it
but Bush murders hundreds of thousands of Iraquuis and thousnads of Amercians and isn’t likely to face execution???
5) Janet Jackson pops half a breast for half a second and has Amercians frothing at the mouth … (The Shock! The horror! Women have .. have .. have ..b-b-b-breasts!!!) … Your President lies to get his nation into a needless, horrendously bloody, horrendously cruel war that should have been avoided, organises the torture and imprisonment without charges for years upon years of prisoners taken in that war yet Americans, by&large jsutshrug their shoulders ..???
How the blazes does this make ANY kind of sense …??!!
What is wrong with you people!?!
Really. Tell me please…?
January 22nd, 2008 at 6:21 am
Corrected version
- since I can’t edit posts or avoid typos it seems .. Sigh :
Yep. & the same death penalty applied to Bush II should apply to all the neo-conservatives who pulled his Dubya’s strings too.
Tell me this any brave fans of Bush the Second & the Retardican Wrong who may be out there :
1) Clinton gets a blow job & faces impeachment …
But Bush invades and occupies another nation without good reason and doesn’t … ???
2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack America on the 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???
3) Israel we’re told by Bush and the Relig. Wrong always has a right to defend itself … but the Palestineans, Lebanese and Iranians don’t???
4) Saddam murders thousands of his own people and is executed for it
but Bush murders hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of Americans and isn’t likely to face execution???
5) Janet Jackson + pops half a breast for half a second and has Americans frothing at the mouth … (The Shock! The horror! Women have .. have .. have ..b-b-b-breasts!!!) … Your President lies to get his nation into a needless, horrendously bloody, horrendously cruel war that should have been avoided, organises the torture and imprisonment without charges for years upon years of prisoners taken in that war yet Americans, by & large just shrug their shoulders ..???
How the blazes does this make ANY kind of sense …??!!
What is wrong with you people!?!
Really. Tell me please…?
—————————————–
+ & not even Janet Jackosn -though she wore tehblame .. Justin Timberlake rips her clothes off & gets off scot-free .. While we’re on the matter of misogny why is it that Muslim 3rd world nations Pakistan & Bangladesh and Tamil-Buddhist Sri Lanka have all had female Presidents but Americans still haven’t and appear so worried at the thought ..? (”Gasp! Can Hillary really get elected? After all ..she’s … well, she’s .. she’s a she ..! I mean electing an imbecile is okay, we did that last time but a *woman* .. gee .. I dunno.”) Yet America still claims to be such a leader in the field of democracy and women’s rights?
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:36 am
Bryan D. is right – FDR took power, restrained the rights of the citizens, and still couldn’t do anything to pull us out of the depression with the exception of joining the second world war, which he didn’t do until we had been attacked. And still, I was one of the few in my AP American History class to say that what he did in our country was wrong. He assumed that he was better than the precedent set by George Washington, the father of our country, and better than all of the other presidents in the intervening time that had followed that precedent because it was an unwritten law and it was the right thing to do. He did things that are still causing trouble in today’s America. He created the original welfare state, ignored the existance of the constitution, and spit on the grave of George Washington, among others.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:01 am
Ken S, I think I am perhaps the only person posting on this thread who has actually been tortured. And guess what? I lied. Not because I’m a hero, but because I’m not a hero. I admitted to something I hadn’t done because I knew that was what the people beating me wanted to hear.
Torture does not get at the truth. The torturer is either just enjoying himself because he’s the kind of person who likes doing that sort of thing, or he has an agenda he wants you to validate. When you’re tortured, your first concern is not telling the truth. It’s finding out, as fast as you can, what the torturer wants to hear and giving them that.
According to modern estimates, some 60,000 people, mostly women, were burned to death during the Renaissance because they confessed to being witches when they were tortured. Do you think they were really witches?
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
Stevo posts, predictably:
[[Israel denies the vote and treats as second class citizens - or worse - the millions of indigenous Palestineans human individuals living within its vastly expanded borders since the Israelis illegally invaded and occupied the Palestinean Territories. ]]
1. 20% of the population of Israel are ethnic Arabs and they all have the vote. There are Arab Knesset members, Arab political parties, and Arab officeholders at a number of levels in Israel.
2. Israel illegally took over the territories when Jordan, which owned those territories previously, illegally attacked Israel in 1967. They lost.
3. Of the territories Israel took over in the 1967 war, they have so far given up the Sinai (Egypt) and Gaza (Jordan) and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights (Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan). For conquerors, they seem strangely willing to give up the lands they’ve conquered.
I’ll skip over the comments about the “Jewish media barons,” as I’m sure everyone here knows where you’re coming from with respect to the Jews.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Tyranicide [sic] posts:
[[If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts when it comes to to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.]]
You’re deeply nuts. Get help.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:18 am
I don’t see the Administration suspending the constitution, actually. It would be too obvious and they’d be facing riots in the streets. More likely they will just attempt to rig the vote using the new and not very hard to hack electronic voting machines. The GOP candidate will win by a few percent in a flurry of electronic ballot-box stuffing.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:05 am
Barton Paul Levenson, my point was partially that the subject of torture is a touchy one, no pun intended. I’m definitely no expert on the subject and I wouldn’t think torturing everybody you pick up would be effective. I imagine I’d say whatever I thought they wanted to hear and then some. However, I have read and heard plenty of things from people who know more about it than me who have claimed that things like waterboarding have gotten useful information and saved lives. Whether that makes it right or the best way in a situation to get information is not something I can answer. I can only say hypothetically that if someone who has the best information available feels that waterboarding al Qaeda’s Abu Zubayda is necessary to save some lives I probably won”t be too upset by it. And no, I don’t equate some poor woman accused of being a witch in medieval times with al Qaeda’s Abu Zubayda. Like I said, I can only speak hypothetically. Generally speaking I would say it’s wrong, but there are things I think are wrong that I’d do if I felt I had to.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:33 am
Unless the Constitution gets suspended? Seriously man, considering how much your appropriately come down on conspiracy nuts and their ilk, you should know better then to let yourself succumb to such ridiculous notions. This is the same ridiculous hearsay that occurred in 2004 and in 2006 with the elections. The idea that Bush will suspend the Constitution to stay in office after 2008 holds no more credibility then 9-11 conspiracies, faces on Mars, or the Virgin Mary actually appearing on a piece of toast.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 am
We will be counting the minutes and seconds when the Clintons get back it.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Ken S, the people who do the waterboarding would say it saved lives, wouldn’t they! Fact is: it is torture and therefore unreliable and cruel.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
— 1) Clinton gets a blow job & faces impeachment …
Clinton lied under oath and *was* impeached, but acquitted.
Disclaimer: I opposed the impeachment.
— 2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack Amercia on teh 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???
No, that was Afghanistan. Bush’s pretense about Iraq was that they had WMDs and would give them to Al-Qaeda. The linking of Iraq to 9/11 was more media generated than anything. The Bush team played on that pre-existing meme to help justify the attack on Iraq.
Disclaimer: I opposed going into Iraq.
Note: this is from someone who probably agrees with you on many things, but you need to back off the hyperbole. No one is “shrugging their shoulders” as you suggest. Most people just don’t know what to do. Take up arms? I think those days are long gone for us.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/pain-beam.htm
And when you slant the facts, do you even recognize you are guilty of the same propaganda techniques of those you oppose? No, it is *not* OK because you think you have the moral high ground. If Ayn Rand got anything right it’s that: A is A. The truth is the truth. Anything else has no use other than fertilizing your plants.
This is where the whole “loony left” stereotype came from. You need to present reasoned arguments and facts as accurately and *maturely* as possible. This hyperventilating style of “Argh! Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Masonic-Nazis on the Mooooooooon” approach really, really, really does NOT work, guys.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
@Christa Cochrane:
This isn’t the Civil War.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
— We will be counting the minutes and seconds when the Clintons get back it.
I dunno… I can’t wait for Bush to be out, but those of you who have some sort of actual hope for any of the clowns in this race… where does that come from?
I wish people could just be stronger and more independent. We don’t need leaders pushing their unworkable utopic nonsense on us. All we need competent managers and civil employees and people unburdened by ideology trying to fit square pegs in round holes.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Unless the Constitution gets suspended? Seriously man, considering how much your appropriately come down on conspiracy nuts and their ilk, you should know better then to let yourself succumb to such ridiculous notions.
I’ve said it many times: ideology is the mind killer.
““Political ideology can corrupt the mind, and science.” — Edwin O. Wilson, biologist and self described scientific humanist.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Pieter, actually the guy I was thinking about in the Abu Zubayda case if I remember correctly, said that he didn’t do the waterboarding and is now opposed to it. But that doesn’t matter anyway. The question isn’t whether someone is for or against it, the question is if it works. Everything I’ve seen points to if you know the information you will eventually give it up. Obviously if the person doesn’t know the information he can’t give it up.
Interestingly, I happened to also just read a thing on free riding. One of the things in the post was that Spain recently arrested 14 men of Pakistani and Indian origin who were planning to attack Barcelona. Spain did this with with the help of information from foreign intelligence agencies but would not say what countries’ intelligence services had provided information. Now the question for Spain would be how was the information gotten and could you still act on it if you didn’t like how it was gotten?
It also had a bit on Michael Scheuer on rendition under Clinton. (http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/sch041707.htm) We let someone else do our dirty work and if we had to we could condemn the people who did it for us. It leads to a lot to think about.
I find it hard to believe that there has never ever been any truthful and useful information gotten out of torture. When do I think it’s ok to use? I’m not sure. I’ve never had to interrogate anyone. I’m not going to stand here and say it should never be used no mater what though. And from a quick search, it appears the CIA stopped using waterboarding after 2003, and apparently have only used it on three detainees: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and an unidentified al-Qaeda prisoner.
January 22nd, 2008 at 6:28 pm
You know, I expected the BA and his fans to have actually read the Constitution, being educated, but I see that all an education has done is lend vehemence, not reason.
Your Congress has the Constitutional duty to declare war. Your Congress has the Constitutional duty to see that the President obeys the War Powers Act – which is exactly what he is doing. Your Congress is sitting in luxury, a page in one hand and an intern in the other, nodding sadly about what a sorry job your President is doing – with Congress’ explicit and implicit approval. Your Congress has the Constitutional duty of controlling ALL Federal government spending, be it for bombs and bullets or lenses and computer imaging equipment or the first Mars rover to find a fossil.
But you won’t even mention your Congress.
Millions – possibly tens of millions – of Americans cannot name their Congressional representatives. They cannot name the Amendments in the Bill of Rights.
They never heard of John Huang, because they were fascinated by Monica’s mouth. They never heard of El Cenizo, where the Governor of Texas could have and should have shown us what he thought about illegal immigration: the invasion of America.
Because Americans want to talk to the Manager – not some flunkie, dammit, my fries are cold! – they don’t have a clue that the President does not have the duty they imagine. And then, ego forbids them from acknowledging that their hate is all they have.
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Don’t worry. be happy. Our leaders/militarty folks have everything in contro!! Trust that pathetic man bnehind the curtain, that Toto finds in the Wizard Of Oz.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/21/6529/
January 23rd, 2008 at 2:57 am
Barton Paul Levinson (BPL) wrote :
Stevo [Actually StevoR is my tag here ..] posts, predictably: [& accurately I might add!]
[[Israel denies the vote and treats as second class citizens - or worse - the millions of indigenous Palestineans human individuals living within its vastly expanded borders since the Israelis illegally invaded and occupied the Palestinean Territories. ]]
1. 20% of the population of Israel are ethnic Arabs and they all have the vote. There are Arab Knesset members, Arab political parties, and Arab officeholders at a number of levels in Israel.”
SCR (me) : … & the 1.5 million Palestineans in Gaza & the 4 million Palestineans West Bank and the millions more refugees forced off their land? Are they represented or given the vote or treated fairly at all? The answer to that is NO.
Israeli Arabs and Palestineans are slightly different groups – but both I think are not considered full members or citizens of “the Jewish state.” Israel is a state for Jews ruled by Jews and exclude to Jews – & that alone makes it a religion based theocracy. The non-Jewish minorities there are NOT treated fairly however much the legal or symbolic fig leaf Israeli lobby apologists wish to pretend otherwise.
BPL : “2. Israel illegally took over the territories when Jordan, which owned those territories previously, illegally attacked Israel in 1967. They lost.”
Actually, factually rather than Isreali-lybingly speaking Israel attacked its Arab neighbours first in 1967 using a Pearl Harbour style sneak attack catching their Arab aircaraft on the ground and then invading them. Apologist for this aggression naturally blamed those nasty “Muslim natives” saying of course that they were about to attack .. Which of course, is something that we’ll never know for sure since Israel like Amercia in Iraq “hit them back first …”
BPL : “3. Of the territories Israel took over in the 1967 war, they have so far given up the Sinai (Egypt) and Gaza (Jordan) and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights (Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan). For conquerors, they seem strangely willing to give up the lands they’ve conquered.
Given up Gaza? Yeah right, that explains why Israel still doesn’t allow Gazan civilians incl. hospitals their electricity, water, has them seighed in and blockaded and denies them full political sovereignty, fishing rights, has regular incursion and launches political extrajudicial assassinations agianst the Gazan’s democratically elected government … Sure. (Yes that’s sarcasm folks.)
Willing to give up lands they’ve conquered – hardly of that were the case the Golan Heights, would be Syrian and East Jerusalem, the West bank and Gaza in Palestinean hands – under their full control today. Of the former Mandate of Palestine Israel controls it all except for afew limited municipal ghettos where the Palestineans are grudging given a slight say. Even under the best Israeli “Peace offer tehy’d still have 80 % of the land thatisrightfully 100% Palestine. Israel was originally (over-generously buthey itwasn’t tehri land they were giving away!) awarded 55 % of the Palestinean Mandate in 1947. Those are the facts.
BPL : “I’ll skip over the comments about the “Jewish media barons,” as I’m sure everyone here knows where you’re coming from with respect to the Jews.”
& I suppose you’re unbiased and completely neutral? Levinson, gee Iwonder what your ethnic backgoround is then ..?
In case you’re wondering I’m an agnostic Aussie who has actually done an honours thesis on the Palestineans. So Iknow what I’m talkingabout and came in from an impartial angel.
If the truth’s the truth …well its the truth – and the truth is the Jewish population of the US does have wealth, political influence &, yes, media control far, far, far in excess of their numbers and light-years – no, more like megaparsecs away from anything warranted by the strength of their case.
Instead of shooting the messenger and shrieking “anti-semitism!” or “self-hating Jew” every time the inconvenient reality of things is mentioned Israeli & Jewish apologists would be far better off acknowledging reality and trying to improve things for everyone.
—————————–
“ I am not in actual fact a Zionist. I don’t think that Jews have some sort of ancestral right to take over a land because their ancestors lived there 1,900 years ago. … Nor do I consider to be legally valid the biblical promises by God that the land of Canaan would belong to the Children of Israel forever.”
- Isaac Asimov, Pages 419-421, ‘ I Asimov : A memoir’, Chapter 7 : ‘Anti-Semitism’, Bantam Books, 1995.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:05 am
# Barton Paul Levenson abused:
“Tyranicide [sic] posts:
[[If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts when it comes to to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.]]
You’re deeply nuts. Get help.”
Gain help in getting Bush the Lesser duly put on trial for war crimes and executed like Saddam was? I’d love to!
Everyone is most welcome to help in acheiving that end!
*******
PS. Its my moniker & I can spell or mis-spell it as I choose!
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 am
As for the ‘deeply nuts’ … well :
I) I thought abusing others was considered wrong here. Ad hominan.
II) Hardly. I’m saner than a lot of people out there – believe me. I mean just look at a certain President who believed God told him to invade a nation that posed no threat to his nation for well itturns out no good reason & who also tries to fight the reality of science and evolution .. ?
III) Is what I’m saying really that “deeply nuts” or just consistent & based on that good ethical & logical law of :
“good for goose = good for gander?”
Seriously, compare the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam and the no. killed in Bush’es avoidable, catastrophic war. Its my strong suspicion that Bush the Mad has killed more than Saddam – although, of course, the US military machine has tried to deny the world the actual death toll.
(& that in itself says a lot …)
Do I think the US really will execute Bush Jr?
Sadly, I very much doubt it.
Do I think Bush the Lesser deserves the death sentence for his illegal actions?
Induitably, definitely, and beyond any skerrick of a doubt!
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 am
# Barton Paul Levenson said :
“Ken S, I think I am perhaps the only person posting on this thread who has actually been tortured.”
Do you mind elaborating on that please?
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 am
Quiet Desperation :
Well you have your style of discourse and I have mine.
But this QD :
“This is where the whole “loony left” stereotype came from. You need to present reasoned arguments and facts as accurately and *maturely* as possible. This hyperventilating style of “Argh! Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Masonic-Nazis on the Mooooooooon” approach really, really, really does NOT work, guys.”
Is a straw man characature. I ‘ve never said Bush _Cheney-Halliburton are Masomic Nazi’s ontheMoon .. I wish they were as then they’d be a lot further away and w/o oxygen supply & suits they’d be dead.
Masons have nothing to do with it. No connection at all.
The Jewish-Israeli lobby and Jewish & Apocalyptic-Evangelical XN type extremists however have a significant real influence that is well known if rarely openly stated. (see for example : Antony Loewenstein’s text “My Israel Question”, Melbourne University Press, 2007,1st publ. 2006 or a whole numvberofbooks byNaM Chomsky perhaps tehgretaest Jewish-American intellectual.)
I think the “loony left stereotype” actually comes from the Lunatic right (or mor eaccuraetly WRONG sideof Amercian politics ie. tehRepublicans &Neo-copnservatives.)
Truth is, in terms of Western democracies the USA is politically severely unbalanced. Ever since McCarthy it has essentially had a right-wing – the Democtratic party & an extreme Right-wing party – The Republicans with nothing much on the left side of politics at all.
The US has always been a lot more right wing than most European and Anglo-phone nations (eg. Australia, NZ, Canada, Falklands, etc ..) Mostof them started better than with a bunch of Puritannical ..well ..Puritans! Most of them have evolved without huge Civil wars and withoutr strong fundamentalist Chritsian influences eesp,.. post-war. Socialist or socialism is not a term of abuse in most of these places. Quite frankly, as democracies and politcial systems and structures go America is not a great example for the West but lies at the far end of the political spectrum with nations such as Eire (or Sth Ireland!), New Zealand and the Netherlands being far superior models to emulate – although this is naturally a subjective judgement!
From an internat’l POV much of American politcis is sen as absurdly rightwing and ist debates are politcially biased towrads the farRight – so if I sound too “left wing” maybe its because you’re all sitting too far in the other direction!
Now then :
“— 1) Clinton gets a blow job & faces impeachment …
QD : Clinton lied under oath and *was* impeached, but acquitted.”
SR (me) : Over a blow job. Yes, he lied but what he lied about matters too don’t you think? & the consequences of that lie are so much less – emotional harm and not mass slaughter and massive damage to the US reputation and oh yes, the destruction of an entire nation …
QD : “Disclaimer: I opposed the impeachment.”
Good for you. So did almost everyone not following or part of the lunatic “right”.
QD: “— 2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack Amercia on the 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???
No, that was Afghanistan. Bush’s pretense about Iraq was that they had WMDs and would give them to Al-Qaeda. The linking of Iraq to 9/11 was more media generated than anything. The Bush team played on that pre-existing meme to help justify the attack on Iraq.”
SR : Ok it _was_ Afghanistan too – & then Iraq. The White House and the media – esp. as I’ve noted the Jewish-owned & Neo-con biased papers – worked together to spread the false slur that Saddam was linked with Al Quaida. Nasty dictator though he was – Saddam just wasn’t responsible at all for 9-11. So my point stands : Osmaa BinLaden and most of his terrorists were from Saudi Arabia or Yemen NOT Iraq or Iran – so why blame & attack the wrong places? Why wage a needless by definition unwinnable “War against Terror” (which is an emotion – not a nation or group – duh!) instead of a specific “War on Al-Quaida”?? The latter would have had everyone’s support and probably been long over -in a US victory – by now …
QD: “Disclaimer: I opposed going into Iraq.”
SR : Again, good for you and so did I. I was actually arrested – charges later dropped, as I was just peacefully protesting like everyone else and grabbed from the crowd for no reason – at an anti-war rally …
QD : Note: this is from someone who probably agrees with you on many things, but you need to back off the hyperbole. No one is “shrugging their shoulders” as you suggest. Most people just don’t know what to do. Take up arms? I think those days are long gone for us.”
SR : What to do? Well take a bit stronger and more vocal action forstarters. Sobad is this Bush administratyionIreallythat that far from hyperbole much of what’s directedat it is actuallyunderstatement ..
Take up arms? No, take up pens and keyboards and placards at protests and take a stand, let people know – esp. the spineless Democratic opposition that they simply MUST do something firm – end the war & impeach Bush!
QD : And when you slant the facts, do you even recognize you are guilty of the same propaganda techniques of those you oppose?
SR : Actually I don’t because I’m not. What soudns like hyperbole is actaully accurate and okay some adjectives may soudn strong but then so’s the reality. As you put it :
“The truth is the truth.”
Truth here is taht yes, Bush really is awar criminal and yes tehNeo-conservatiev Jewish-Isreali lobby has played a nasty role in conspiring to get us into the mess we’re in now.
I have not said one thing that is not true.
(There’s been a few typos sure, but nothing false.
)
Y’all can try to prove otherwise – but if you can … I’ll be very surprised
January 23rd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Stevo posts:
[[Given up Gaza? Yeah right, that explains why Israel still doesn’t allow Gazan civilians incl. hospitals their electricity, water, has them seighed in and blockaded and denies them full political sovereignty, fishing rights, has regular incursion ]]
Stevo, Israel is blockading and incursing into Gaza because Gaza is firing explosive-warhead rockets into Israel and killing Israeli citizens. If Mexican border villages were pouring rocket fire into US border villages and the Mexican government didn’t do anything about it, we’d send in troops after the perpetrators, even if the President of the US was Dennis Kucinich. If the Gazans want Israel out, they can stop the rocket fire.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
That’s one of the things I never understood Barton, if I may call you that instead of the full Barton Paul Levenson. We, meaning society but not everyone, expect Israel to put up with stuff we wouldn’t expect any other country to put up with.
I don’t know other peoples thoughts on him, but I have found Walid Shoebat interesting. ( http://www.shoebat.com/ ) I like this quote, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
We expect Israel to put up with… and we let Israel ignore UN sanctions; we even assist them.
But that’s not on-topic.
Astronomy, please?
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:38 pm
President McCain is going to be a lot of fun ..
MORE OF THE SAME!!!!