MORE OF THE SAME!!!!

But that’s not on-topic.

Astronomy, please?

I don’t know other peoples thoughts on him, but I have found Walid Shoebat interesting. ( http://www.shoebat.com/ ) I like this quote, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”

[[Given up Gaza? Yeah right, that explains why Israel still doesn’t allow Gazan civilians incl. hospitals their electricity, water, has them seighed in and blockaded and denies them full political sovereignty, fishing rights, has regular incursion ]]

Stevo, Israel is blockading and incursing into Gaza because Gaza is firing explosive-warhead rockets into Israel and killing Israeli citizens. If Mexican border villages were pouring rocket fire into US border villages and the Mexican government didn’t do anything about it, we’d send in troops after the perpetrators, even if the President of the US was Dennis Kucinich. If the Gazans want Israel out, they can stop the rocket fire.

Well you have your style of discourse and I have mine.

But this QD :

“This is where the whole “loony left” stereotype came from. You need to present reasoned arguments and facts as accurately and *maturely* as possible. This hyperventilating style of “Argh! Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Masonic-Nazis on the Mooooooooon” approach really, really, really does NOT work, guys.”

Is a straw man characature. I ‘ve never said Bush _Cheney-Halliburton are Masomic Nazi’s ontheMoon .. I wish they were as then they’d be a lot further away and w/o oxygen supply & suits they’d be dead.

Masons have nothing to do with it. No connection at all.

The Jewish-Israeli lobby and Jewish & Apocalyptic-Evangelical XN type extremists however have a significant real influence that is well known if rarely openly stated. (see for example : Antony Loewenstein’s text “My Israel Question”, Melbourne University Press, 2007,1st publ. 2006 or a whole numvberofbooks byNaM Chomsky perhaps tehgretaest Jewish-American intellectual.)

I think the “loony left stereotype” actually comes from the Lunatic right (or mor eaccuraetly WRONG sideof Amercian politics ie. tehRepublicans &Neo-copnservatives.)

Truth is, in terms of Western democracies the USA is politically severely unbalanced. Ever since McCarthy it has essentially had a right-wing – the Democtratic party & an extreme Right-wing party – The Republicans with nothing much on the left side of politics at all.

The US has always been a lot more right wing than most European and Anglo-phone nations (eg. Australia, NZ, Canada, Falklands, etc ..) Mostof them started better than with a bunch of Puritannical ..well ..Puritans! Most of them have evolved without huge Civil wars and withoutr strong fundamentalist Chritsian influences eesp,.. post-war. Socialist or socialism is not a term of abuse in most of these places. Quite frankly, as democracies and politcial systems and structures go America is not a great example for the West but lies at the far end of the political spectrum with nations such as Eire (or Sth Ireland!), New Zealand and the Netherlands being far superior models to emulate – although this is naturally a subjective judgement!

From an internat’l POV much of American politcis is sen as absurdly rightwing and ist debates are politcially biased towrads the farRight – so if I sound too “left wing” maybe its because you’re all sitting too far in the other direction!

Now then :

“— 1) Clinton gets a blow job & faces impeachment …

QD : Clinton lied under oath and *was* impeached, but acquitted.”

SR (me) : Over a blow job. Yes, he lied but what he lied about matters too don’t you think? & the consequences of that lie are so much less – emotional harm and not mass slaughter and massive damage to the US reputation and oh yes, the destruction of an entire nation …

QD : “Disclaimer: I opposed the impeachment.”

Good for you. So did almost everyone not following or part of the lunatic “right”.

QD: “— 2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack Amercia on the 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???

No, that was Afghanistan. Bush’s pretense about Iraq was that they had WMDs and would give them to Al-Qaeda. The linking of Iraq to 9/11 was more media generated than anything. The Bush team played on that pre-existing meme to help justify the attack on Iraq.”

SR : Ok it _was_ Afghanistan too – & then Iraq. The White House and the media – esp. as I’ve noted the Jewish-owned & Neo-con biased papers – worked together to spread the false slur that Saddam was linked with Al Quaida. Nasty dictator though he was – Saddam just wasn’t responsible at all for 9-11. So my point stands : Osmaa BinLaden and most of his terrorists were from Saudi Arabia or Yemen NOT Iraq or Iran – so why blame & attack the wrong places? Why wage a needless by definition unwinnable “War against Terror” (which is an emotion – not a nation or group – duh!) instead of a specific “War on Al-Quaida”?? The latter would have had everyone’s support and probably been long over -in a US victory – by now …

QD: “Disclaimer: I opposed going into Iraq.”

SR : Again, good for you and so did I. I was actually arrested – charges later dropped, as I was just peacefully protesting like everyone else and grabbed from the crowd for no reason – at an anti-war rally …

QD : Note: this is from someone who probably agrees with you on many things, but you need to back off the hyperbole. No one is “shrugging their shoulders” as you suggest. Most people just don’t know what to do. Take up arms? I think those days are long gone for us.”

SR : What to do? Well take a bit stronger and more vocal action forstarters. Sobad is this Bush administratyionIreallythat that far from hyperbole much of what’s directedat it is actuallyunderstatement ..

Take up arms? No, take up pens and keyboards and placards at protests and take a stand, let people know – esp. the spineless Democratic opposition that they simply MUST do something firm – end the war & impeach Bush!

QD : And when you slant the facts, do you even recognize you are guilty of the same propaganda techniques of those you oppose?

SR : Actually I don’t because I’m not. What soudns like hyperbole is actaully accurate and okay some adjectives may soudn strong but then so’s the reality. As you put it :

“The truth is the truth.”

Truth here is taht yes, Bush really is awar criminal and yes tehNeo-conservatiev Jewish-Isreali lobby has played a nasty role in conspiring to get us into the mess we’re in now.

I have not said one thing that is not true.

(There’s been a few typos sure, but nothing false. )

Y’all can try to prove otherwise – but if you can … I’ll be very surprised

“Ken S, I think I am perhaps the only person posting on this thread who has actually been tortured.”

Do you mind elaborating on that please?

I) I thought abusing others was considered wrong here. Ad hominan.

II) Hardly. I’m saner than a lot of people out there – believe me. I mean just look at a certain President who believed God told him to invade a nation that posed no threat to his nation for well itturns out no good reason & who also tries to fight the reality of science and evolution .. ?

III) Is what I’m saying really that “deeply nuts” or just consistent & based on that good ethical & logical law of :

“good for goose = good for gander?”

Seriously, compare the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam and the no. killed in Bush’es avoidable, catastrophic war. Its my strong suspicion that Bush the Mad has killed more than Saddam – although, of course, the US military machine has tried to deny the world the actual death toll.
(& that in itself says a lot …)

Do I think the US really will execute Bush Jr?
Sadly, I very much doubt it.
Do I think Bush the Lesser deserves the death sentence for his illegal actions?
Induitably, definitely, and beyond any skerrick of a doubt!

“Tyranicide [sic] posts:

[[If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts when it comes to to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.]]

You’re deeply nuts. Get help.”

Gain help in getting Bush the Lesser duly put on trial for war crimes and executed like Saddam was? I’d love to!

Everyone is most welcome to help in acheiving that end!

*******

PS. Its my moniker & I can spell or mis-spell it as I choose!

Stevo [Actually StevoR is my tag here ..] posts, predictably: [& accurately I might add!]

[[Israel denies the vote and treats as second class citizens - or worse - the millions of indigenous Palestineans human individuals living within its vastly expanded borders since the Israelis illegally invaded and occupied the Palestinean Territories. ]]

1. 20% of the population of Israel are ethnic Arabs and they all have the vote. There are Arab Knesset members, Arab political parties, and Arab officeholders at a number of levels in Israel.”

SCR (me) : … & the 1.5 million Palestineans in Gaza & the 4 million Palestineans West Bank and the millions more refugees forced off their land? Are they represented or given the vote or treated fairly at all? The answer to that is NO.

Israeli Arabs and Palestineans are slightly different groups – but both I think are not considered full members or citizens of “the Jewish state.” Israel is a state for Jews ruled by Jews and exclude to Jews – & that alone makes it a religion based theocracy. The non-Jewish minorities there are NOT treated fairly however much the legal or symbolic fig leaf Israeli lobby apologists wish to pretend otherwise.

BPL : “2. Israel illegally took over the territories when Jordan, which owned those territories previously, illegally attacked Israel in 1967. They lost.”

Actually, factually rather than Isreali-lybingly speaking Israel attacked its Arab neighbours first in 1967 using a Pearl Harbour style sneak attack catching their Arab aircaraft on the ground and then invading them. Apologist for this aggression naturally blamed those nasty “Muslim natives” saying of course that they were about to attack .. Which of course, is something that we’ll never know for sure since Israel like Amercia in Iraq “hit them back first …”

BPL : “3. Of the territories Israel took over in the 1967 war, they have so far given up the Sinai (Egypt) and Gaza (Jordan) and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights (Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan). For conquerors, they seem strangely willing to give up the lands they’ve conquered.

Given up Gaza? Yeah right, that explains why Israel still doesn’t allow Gazan civilians incl. hospitals their electricity, water, has them seighed in and blockaded and denies them full political sovereignty, fishing rights, has regular incursion and launches political extrajudicial assassinations agianst the Gazan’s democratically elected government … Sure. (Yes that’s sarcasm folks.)

Willing to give up lands they’ve conquered – hardly of that were the case the Golan Heights, would be Syrian and East Jerusalem, the West bank and Gaza in Palestinean hands – under their full control today. Of the former Mandate of Palestine Israel controls it all except for afew limited municipal ghettos where the Palestineans are grudging given a slight say. Even under the best Israeli “Peace offer tehy’d still have 80 % of the land thatisrightfully 100% Palestine. Israel was originally (over-generously buthey itwasn’t tehri land they were giving away!) awarded 55 % of the Palestinean Mandate in 1947. Those are the facts.

BPL : “I’ll skip over the comments about the “Jewish media barons,” as I’m sure everyone here knows where you’re coming from with respect to the Jews.”

& I suppose you’re unbiased and completely neutral? Levinson, gee Iwonder what your ethnic backgoround is then ..?

In case you’re wondering I’m an agnostic Aussie who has actually done an honours thesis on the Palestineans. So Iknow what I’m talkingabout and came in from an impartial angel.

If the truth’s the truth …well its the truth – and the truth is the Jewish population of the US does have wealth, political influence &, yes, media control far, far, far in excess of their numbers and light-years – no, more like megaparsecs away from anything warranted by the strength of their case.

Instead of shooting the messenger and shrieking “anti-semitism!” or “self-hating Jew” every time the inconvenient reality of things is mentioned Israeli & Jewish apologists would be far better off acknowledging reality and trying to improve things for everyone.

—————————–

“ I am not in actual fact a Zionist. I don’t think that Jews have some sort of ancestral right to take over a land because their ancestors lived there 1,900 years ago. … Nor do I consider to be legally valid the biblical promises by God that the land of Canaan would belong to the Children of Israel forever.”

- Isaac Asimov, Pages 419-421, ‘ I Asimov : A memoir’, Chapter 7 : ‘Anti-Semitism’, Bantam Books, 1995.

Your Congress has the Constitutional duty to declare war. Your Congress has the Constitutional duty to see that the President obeys the War Powers Act – which is exactly what he is doing. Your Congress is sitting in luxury, a page in one hand and an intern in the other, nodding sadly about what a sorry job your President is doing – with Congress’ explicit and implicit approval. Your Congress has the Constitutional duty of controlling ALL Federal government spending, be it for bombs and bullets or lenses and computer imaging equipment or the first Mars rover to find a fossil.

But you won’t even mention your Congress.

Millions – possibly tens of millions – of Americans cannot name their Congressional representatives. They cannot name the Amendments in the Bill of Rights.

They never heard of John Huang, because they were fascinated by Monica’s mouth. They never heard of El Cenizo, where the Governor of Texas could have and should have shown us what he thought about illegal immigration: the invasion of America.

Because Americans want to talk to the Manager – not some flunkie, dammit, my fries are cold! – they don’t have a clue that the President does not have the duty they imagine. And then, ego forbids them from acknowledging that their hate is all they have.

Interestingly, I happened to also just read a thing on free riding. One of the things in the post was that Spain recently arrested 14 men of Pakistani and Indian origin who were planning to attack Barcelona. Spain did this with with the help of information from foreign intelligence agencies but would not say what countries’ intelligence services had provided information. Now the question for Spain would be how was the information gotten and could you still act on it if you didn’t like how it was gotten?

It also had a bit on Michael Scheuer on rendition under Clinton. (http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/sch041707.htm) We let someone else do our dirty work and if we had to we could condemn the people who did it for us. It leads to a lot to think about.

I find it hard to believe that there has never ever been any truthful and useful information gotten out of torture. When do I think it’s ok to use? I’m not sure. I’ve never had to interrogate anyone. I’m not going to stand here and say it should never be used no mater what though. And from a quick search, it appears the CIA stopped using waterboarding after 2003, and apparently have only used it on three detainees: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and an unidentified al-Qaeda prisoner.

I’ve said it many times: ideology is the mind killer.

““Political ideology can corrupt the mind, and science.” — Edwin O. Wilson, biologist and self described scientific humanist.

I dunno… I can’t wait for Bush to be out, but those of you who have some sort of actual hope for any of the clowns in this race… where does that come from?

I wish people could just be stronger and more independent. We don’t need leaders pushing their unworkable utopic nonsense on us. All we need competent managers and civil employees and people unburdened by ideology trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

This isn’t the Civil War.

Clinton lied under oath and *was* impeached, but acquitted.

Disclaimer: I opposed the impeachment.

— 2) Saudi and Yemeni based terrorists attack Amercia on teh 11th September 2001 … But Iraq gets invaded and Iran threatened???

No, that was Afghanistan. Bush’s pretense about Iraq was that they had WMDs and would give them to Al-Qaeda. The linking of Iraq to 9/11 was more media generated than anything. The Bush team played on that pre-existing meme to help justify the attack on Iraq.

Disclaimer: I opposed going into Iraq.

Note: this is from someone who probably agrees with you on many things, but you need to back off the hyperbole. No one is “shrugging their shoulders” as you suggest. Most people just don’t know what to do. Take up arms? I think those days are long gone for us.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/pain-beam.htm

And when you slant the facts, do you even recognize you are guilty of the same propaganda techniques of those you oppose? No, it is *not* OK because you think you have the moral high ground. If Ayn Rand got anything right it’s that: A is A. The truth is the truth. Anything else has no use other than fertilizing your plants.

This is where the whole “loony left” stereotype came from. You need to present reasoned arguments and facts as accurately and *maturely* as possible. This hyperventilating style of “Argh! Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Masonic-Nazis on the Mooooooooon” approach really, really, really does NOT work, guys.

[[If Americans had any sense of justice and any true guts when it comes to to holding tyranny to account then George II aka Bush the Mad would be joining Saddam in swinging from the end of a noose.]]

You’re deeply nuts. Get help.

[[Israel denies the vote and treats as second class citizens - or worse - the millions of indigenous Palestineans human individuals living within its vastly expanded borders since the Israelis illegally invaded and occupied the Palestinean Territories. ]]

1. 20% of the population of Israel are ethnic Arabs and they all have the vote. There are Arab Knesset members, Arab political parties, and Arab officeholders at a number of levels in Israel.

2. Israel illegally took over the territories when Jordan, which owned those territories previously, illegally attacked Israel in 1967. They lost.

3. Of the territories Israel took over in the 1967 war, they have so far given up the Sinai (Egypt) and Gaza (Jordan) and are negotiating to give up the Golan Heights (Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan). For conquerors, they seem strangely willing to give up the lands they’ve conquered.

I’ll skip over the comments about the “Jewish media barons,” as I’m sure everyone here knows where you’re coming from with respect to the Jews.

Torture does not get at the truth. The torturer is either just enjoying himself because he’s the kind of person who likes doing that sort of thing, or he has an agenda he wants you to validate. When you’re tortured, your first concern is not telling the truth. It’s finding out, as fast as you can, what the torturer wants to hear and giving them that.

According to modern estimates, some 60,000 people, mostly women, were burned to death during the Renaissance because they confessed to being witches when they were tortured. Do you think they were really witches?