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	<title>Comments on: Spud nut</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Barton Paul Levenson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67071</link>
		<dc:creator>Barton Paul Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67071</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not self-contradictory at all.  I don&#039;t think you understand what a logical self-contradiction entails.  It&#039;s not just saying these things are the same thing but are not each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not self-contradictory at all.  I don&#8217;t think you understand what a logical self-contradiction entails.  It&#8217;s not just saying these things are the same thing but are not each other.</p>
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		<title>By: TheBlackCat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67070</link>
		<dc:creator>TheBlackCat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67070</guid>
		<description>Even if you are right, it completely misses my point which was that people where well aware of the problems with the trinity but chose to ignore them.  That was what we were discussing, the fact that the Christian god is, by its very definition, self-contradictory.  You are focusing on a minor historical detail and ignoring the actual point of my post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if you are right, it completely misses my point which was that people where well aware of the problems with the trinity but chose to ignore them.  That was what we were discussing, the fact that the Christian god is, by its very definition, self-contradictory.  You are focusing on a minor historical detail and ignoring the actual point of my post.</p>
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		<title>By: Barton Paul Levenson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67069</link>
		<dc:creator>Barton Paul Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67069</guid>
		<description>TheBlackCat writes:

[[&lt;i&gt;It was only resolved by ruling all opposing views heresy and anyone openly holding them was executed.&lt;/i&gt;]]

Your history is about as good as your theology.  Been reading Dan Brown?

There was never a period when non-Trinitarians were executed for denying the Trinity.  Arius died an old man of natural causes.  The only case I can think of that comes close was Michael Servetus in Calvin&#039;s Geneva, and the main reason they executed him was his attitude (&quot;I will set this land to rights,&quot; etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TheBlackCat writes:</p>
<p>[[<i>It was only resolved by ruling all opposing views heresy and anyone openly holding them was executed.</i>]]</p>
<p>Your history is about as good as your theology.  Been reading Dan Brown?</p>
<p>There was never a period when non-Trinitarians were executed for denying the Trinity.  Arius died an old man of natural causes.  The only case I can think of that comes close was Michael Servetus in Calvin&#8217;s Geneva, and the main reason they executed him was his attitude (&#8221;I will set this land to rights,&#8221; etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: captain swoop</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67068</link>
		<dc:creator>captain swoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67068</guid>
		<description>Plus you won&#039;t get burned at the stake for coming up with a different theory (as long as you have evidence lol)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plus you won&#8217;t get burned at the stake for coming up with a different theory (as long as you have evidence lol)</p>
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		<title>By: TheBlackCat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67067</link>
		<dc:creator>TheBlackCat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67067</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Gee, I wonder how that simple identity managed to escape guys like Augustine and Aquinas. They must’ve been pretty stupid to miss something so obvious.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They didn&#039;t miss it, they just decided it was how things were and ruled that it was a fundamentally unanswerable question.  In other words they completely dodged the issue the same way you did with the problem of evil, they said God was beyond human understanding.  That is a fairly common response to such contradictions, it seems.  This has been a well-known theological difficulty from the earliest days of Christianity.  It was only resolved by ruling all opposing views heresy and anyone openly holding them was executed.

&lt;blockquote&gt;An electron is both a particle and a wave. The particle is an electron. The wave is an electron. But the wave is not a particle, and the particle is not a wave.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, the motion of an electron (and other very small particles) is more similar to the motion of a transverse wave on our scale, while the measurement of electrons is more similar to that of a solid object on our scale.  To say it a different way, movement follows a wave equation while measure position follows the rules of particles.

There are several key differences.  First, the particle is still an electron in all cases.  We are not saying it is both an electron and not an electron, which is what people are saying with the trinity.  Second, the two sets of rules it follows are not followed simultaneously, that is it behaves as if it were a particle in some situations and a wave in other situations.  The trinity holds its different properties at the same time.

Third, there is nothing inherently self-contradictory here anyway.  We are used to, on our length scale, particles following a certain motion pattern and waves following a different motion pattern.  We are used to particles having certain properties when we try to measure their position while waves have different properties.  In our scale those two sets of properties always appear together.  But there is no a-priori reason why those particle motion and position properties have to go together.  There is nothing inherently self-contradictory here since the motion and measurement are two different properties of an entity.  We simply assumed they were dependent on each other.  We are simply seeing in subatomic particles a combination of these two properties that we have do not see in our length scale.  In other words, these two properties are more independent of each other than we had realized.  In the trinity, we are talking about a being that has multiple versions of the &lt;b&gt;same&lt;/b&gt; properties, and expresses these multiple versions simultaneously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Gee, I wonder how that simple identity managed to escape guys like Augustine and Aquinas. They must’ve been pretty stupid to miss something so obvious.</p></blockquote>
<p>They didn&#8217;t miss it, they just decided it was how things were and ruled that it was a fundamentally unanswerable question.  In other words they completely dodged the issue the same way you did with the problem of evil, they said God was beyond human understanding.  That is a fairly common response to such contradictions, it seems.  This has been a well-known theological difficulty from the earliest days of Christianity.  It was only resolved by ruling all opposing views heresy and anyone openly holding them was executed.</p>
<blockquote><p>An electron is both a particle and a wave. The particle is an electron. The wave is an electron. But the wave is not a particle, and the particle is not a wave.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, the motion of an electron (and other very small particles) is more similar to the motion of a transverse wave on our scale, while the measurement of electrons is more similar to that of a solid object on our scale.  To say it a different way, movement follows a wave equation while measure position follows the rules of particles.</p>
<p>There are several key differences.  First, the particle is still an electron in all cases.  We are not saying it is both an electron and not an electron, which is what people are saying with the trinity.  Second, the two sets of rules it follows are not followed simultaneously, that is it behaves as if it were a particle in some situations and a wave in other situations.  The trinity holds its different properties at the same time.</p>
<p>Third, there is nothing inherently self-contradictory here anyway.  We are used to, on our length scale, particles following a certain motion pattern and waves following a different motion pattern.  We are used to particles having certain properties when we try to measure their position while waves have different properties.  In our scale those two sets of properties always appear together.  But there is no a-priori reason why those particle motion and position properties have to go together.  There is nothing inherently self-contradictory here since the motion and measurement are two different properties of an entity.  We simply assumed they were dependent on each other.  We are simply seeing in subatomic particles a combination of these two properties that we have do not see in our length scale.  In other words, these two properties are more independent of each other than we had realized.  In the trinity, we are talking about a being that has multiple versions of the <b>same</b> properties, and expresses these multiple versions simultaneously.</p>
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		<title>By: Barton Paul Levenson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67066</link>
		<dc:creator>Barton Paul Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 14:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67066</guid>
		<description>Gee, I wonder how that simple identity managed to escape guys like Augustine and Aquinas.  They must&#039;ve been pretty stupid to miss something so obvious.

An electron is both a particle and a wave.  The particle is an electron.  The wave is an electron.  But the wave is not a particle, and the particle is not a wave.

Looks like quantum mechanics is self-contradictory.  We&#039;d better stop believing in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, I wonder how that simple identity managed to escape guys like Augustine and Aquinas.  They must&#8217;ve been pretty stupid to miss something so obvious.</p>
<p>An electron is both a particle and a wave.  The particle is an electron.  The wave is an electron.  But the wave is not a particle, and the particle is not a wave.</p>
<p>Looks like quantum mechanics is self-contradictory.  We&#8217;d better stop believing in it.</p>
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		<title>By: TheBlackCat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/comment-page-3/#comment-67065</link>
		<dc:creator>TheBlackCat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/01/29/spud-nut/#comment-67065</guid>
		<description>Those question marks should have been &quot;not equal to&quot; symbols.  It looks like wordpress couldn&#039;t handle the symbols for some reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those question marks should have been &#8220;not equal to&#8221; symbols.  It looks like wordpress couldn&#8217;t handle the symbols for some reason.</p>
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