I have to think the answer to this question is yes.
My thoughts on young-Earth creationism are well known on this blog. It’s completely and utterly wrong; the Earth is far more than 6000 years old, and the claims made by creationists to back up their claims are incredibly easy to disprove.
Yet it’s on the rise, it seems, with major Presidential candidates kowtowing to such nonsense. And then we have incredibly bilge like the Creation Museum… and the rest of the world has taken notice.
At least they interviewed a religious man who puts creationism in its place.
Still, it’s getting hard to avoid the idea that it’s increasingly embarrassing to be an American these days. Despite our many proud achievements, are we known for our silliness? Moon hoax believers, psychics, and creationists. Is this how the world sees us?
If you are a citizen of some other country, then please leave a comment. What are your thoughts? Do your news outlets, magazines, radio, and other media portray us as fringe lunatics? Our own media here are irritatingly isolationist, making it hard to get a sense of what the rest of the world actually thinks.
Here’s your chance. This will be a biased sample, of course, but let’s hear it. How does your country view America?
January 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I think you already know the answer to this.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I’m engaged to a Swede, and as a result of our relationship, I have both learned the language, and visit Sweden every year. To give you a short answer, yes, they do view us for our silliness instead of looking to our accomplishments. This is particularly sad given all of the good that we *have* done in the past.
Also, the media there seem to think that the office of the president is like some kind of autocrat, and they don’t seem to understand very well how the power is spread between Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court. So if you think we don’t like Bush here, he’s taken mythic proportions over there given this misunderstanding.
The other thing that I noticed was that the last time that I was there, I was watching BBC International, and they showed a documentary that pretty much confirmed every possible stereotype of the typical bible thumper, and didn’t show the fact that there are a lot of sane, and rational people here.
However, in my own limited way, I have been able to dispel many misconceptions about us with my future wife, and my future in-laws. Just wish there was more that I could do.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
You guys are getting me to worry sometimes … the amount of crazy people raising to power is disconcerting … if you elect Huckabee I guess we’ll have to start granting asylum to American scientists … please choose the right president and turn the country around …
January 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Aside from all that, American’s also have the most laughable warning labels. Many things that are common sense, like don’t put a pencil in your eye or hot coffee is hot, are rarely seen on packaging in Germany.
Having lived in Europe the first half of my life and how here in the US, it is a giant cultural shift from a mostly integrated, youthful society to a secular set of beliefs. In the end, we’re all still human.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Hi there. I’m from Denmark, been reading this blog (and the website before the blog existed) for a looooong time but never commented before.
My impression is that the creationists are viewed as a bunch of loons by many people, Denmark is really not a very religious place. However I don’t think this view is generalized to the entire US. Not for this reason anyway. There is a lot of different views on the US but mostly the people I hang around seem to mind Bush and his ilk the most, a lot of my friends really do not like having him in charge of the US.
There has been more noise about creationism and scepticism lately but most of what I know about these things in the US comes from this webpage. And we do have our own silly people here…
Of course now there will probably be some other dane who says the exact opposite in another comment :-).
/Toke
January 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Denmark: Obese
When the word “miraculous” is used in Europe it can most often be taken to mean “by an amazing coincidence”, whereas in the US it’s used as “an act of god”.
On a personal level, I am appalled by all the “I thank god that the search/rescue team found me in time”.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Americans were the laughing stock, but I believe people are getting scared instead. USA seems to be on the route to becoming a fundamentalist Christian society, and that would make current Islamic extremists look like sane persons in comparison.
But what can you expect from a society which uses the same rules for deciding who gets to win the NFL as for deciding their president?
January 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
BTW, I am Danish as well.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Personally I’d be quite embarrassed to live in America with statistics like only a quarter of Americans believe in evolution. Such high levels of ignorance is shocking.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Hi, I live in New Zealand but am originally from the Netherlands.
My opinion about America is, is that it is a very religious place, way more than any other western country.
And I have to say, I do think a a big bunch of American’s are a bit weird… lots of them feel full of themselves for the fact that they are americans. And they don’t really care about what is happening in the world around them (climate change etc)
January 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I just think of the US as the leading edge of unreason, but it’s nearly as bad here in the Great White North. A recent poll had ~48% of respondents believing in ghosts, spirits, etc.
And last week, our PM dismissed the Science Advisory Committee. After all, who needs science when you have faith.
And we have our own Creation Museum (read double-wide trailer) here in Big Valley, Alberta.
We’re doomed, I tell ya. All doomed.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Much more worrying are the AGW deniers, though. They have a global influence.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
It’s hard for me to put myself in the place of a British subject whose only source of information is the mainstream media, but I think there certainly is a strong impression there that your country generally consists of the lunatic fringe. Thankfully, I read a good number of blogs that inform me of the way things really are - of the ongoing fight against the crushing tide of woo. The US sceptics and rationalists do get a mention on occasion, but of course it’s little more than a footnote saying “Many in the US science community however are sceptical about xxx” … Not really what you need.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Funny thing. I don’t think Americans realize how much damage a very few people have done to their country. I don’t just mean creationists, but the religiouzing of the American government, and the seemingly crazed US foreign policy.
I speak with Americans on a regular basis, and they just brush away this kind of thing as if it doesn’t matter. But it does matter, and it does affect how much of the world views the US.
I know you specifically asked about anti-science behaviour, but I’ll answer in a related thread (anti-logical behaviour). I am Canadian. Regardless of what some American news stations say about “Britain being the US’s closest ally”, I don’t think that’s true. They say that cause they don’t even realize that Canada is here. Americans don’t think about Canada. It just “is” to them. So when I say that Canada is the most pro-American country in the world, I don’t think I’m exaggerating. I live in Western Canada, in a conservative region. I think it is safe to say that I live in the most pro-American, pro-Republican part of Canada. Therefore I live in the most pro-American part of the most pro-American country in the world.
I just put that in there to give you a sense of where I live. I don’t live in a place that doesn’t like the US. Or at least, 8 years ago I didn’t live in a place that didn’t like the US. Now I do. In fact, now I’d say I live in a place that broadly hates the US as a whole. If you ask any person on the street, they probably won’t dislike individual Americans, but many of them now have an intense dislike of the US, and that isn’t just going to evaporate.
And if we, living here, have gained such a strong anger toward the US, what do you think they are feeling in Europe? Or the Middle East? Or China? Or, really, anywhere else? That’s why I say that I don’t think Americans know just how much damage a few wackos can do to them. It is true of the Bush administration, and it is true of anti-sciencism as well.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I’m from Canada, and even we think you’ve gone completely off the deep end. I mean, not you personally, but Americans on average.
Personally, your country scares me and I refuse to enter the country except under exceptional circumstances.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
American culture is just more well known to the world than other countries cultures are known. I spent five months working in South Korea and I never meet a single person there who didn’t believe that if you fall asleep with a fan on you would die. Most people in the west, even skeptics, have never even heard of fan death but it is a big enough concern in South Korea that their government has issued warnings about it.
It’s just unfortunate that a good portion of our culture is nutty.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I’m afraid that the current crop of uncritical US thinkers (term used loosely) get alot of media exposure in Sweden at least. In a sense I guess media outlets focus on the differences, as they’re more likely to create a story of sorts.
Fringe or simply plain unsupported ideas filter into the mainstream news stories over here as well, so that’s not unique to the US. But they’re for the time being mostly relegated to the tabloids and/or health/fitness segments, thankfullly.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Yes, we view the USA as a big bully of a country filled with religious wackos, an incredibly corrupted political system, and a woefully deficient mass media that does a great job keeping the people misinformed.
When Bush talks of his fear of religious dictators with “nucular” weapons, he should take a long hard look in the mirror! He scares the hell out of me!
I understood when he stole the election in 2000, but I was flabbergasted when he was “re-elected” in 2004.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Super Tuesday is coming up. Who do you endorse?
January 30th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Yes, I think the US is nut-house crazy, and we need to secede.
~Quarky, from New England.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I think the general impression in the UK is that America is increasingly falling victim to Christian fundamentalism. The US has long had the stereotype of being uneducated, aggressive and hypocritical, but the fundamentalism thing seems to be a new addition to it.
As I have an interest in this, and as some of the fundamentalism is creeping over to the UK, so I know they are just stereotypes. But when I get comments like this left on my blog on posts about evolution:
“Evolution is nonsense,people who believe in creation like me are RIGHT.People like you are just CRAZY!!!like you.I really feel bad for you, because you are just wrong.And just to let you know you’re facing a 12 year old GIRL,who actually knows’ what she’s talking about.And who is correct.That’s all I had to say to you about evolution.Bye CRAZY man.”
It doesn’t feel me with confidence that this can be tackled without a huge amount of support and education among the population.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
In terms of foreign policy or even just the attitude towards the rest of the world - ignorant bullies. Whether it’s Pakistani civil society (at least what’s left of it) or your average Aussie, Americans are largely seen as a bunch of people who don’t know what they’re talking about but will yell it at the top of their lungs anyway. The creationism stuff only makes it worse because the US has made such an effort to paint non-Christian nations that have nukes as fundamentalist lunatics who can’t be trusted. Pot, meet kettle.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
As an Englishman in New York (actually, I’m in Northern Colorado, but I couldn’t resist), I must say that finding sites like this have helped breach the chasm between “normal” folk and “Crazy Yanks” (as my family are likely to say).
Moving here eight years ago was like a jump into another world, dealing as I was for the first time with people that really DID go to church every week, and believe what they were told/taught/indoctrinated.
Working in an environment where the default assumption is that you are a church-goer is 180 degrees from most of Western Europe. Due to the sheer number of religious people, its also not surprising to find more fanatical takes on the world around us: having a “what did you do this weekend” conversation cut short because I happened to mention taking my daughter to see the dinosaur exhibit in Laramie, Wyoming being a good example. So comfortable are the religious that there beliefs are not challenged at all, they have lost the ability to argue them rationally and instead resort to a somewhat childish “it’s true, damn it!” (or, I suppose “darn it”… must remember where I am).
Rambling on as I have, I should get to the point… having lived here for a while, my belief that the U.S. is an insular, fanatical, morally-schizophrenic country that scares the living bejehozafat out of the rest of the world.
Additionally, I can only say that if Huckabee is elected, you’ll find me on the first boat out of here.
P.S. Regarding U.S. Media: Cannot stand, won’t watch/read/listen to it… thank the stars for the BBC website
January 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Reports in the UK are generally of the kind “And here’s what those whacky foreigners are up to…”
Things like Indian kids being born with three legs, obscure tribesmen dancing for rain and American creationists.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Europeans will probably think we’re stupid and/or crazy with or without the presence of creationists. It’s just what Europeans do, and is probably a psychological defense mechanism that shields their self-esteem from damage: “I may live in a country that’s slipping into insignificance and is within a generation or two of being dominated by Islamic lunatics, but at least I’m not like one of those *Americans*! Those hillbillies still have people who believe in *god* over there!” Certain Americans, thinking that the preceding beliefs mark one as sophisticated, will agree vigorously.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I live in Northern Ireland. Recently, a local councillor tried to table a motion to get a school board to teach ID in addition to evolution. As far as I know he was slapped down.
But yes, people here, especially protestant fundies, are evangelical and easily influenced by American religious culture. They would feel right at home in the ridiculous “museum”.
Don’t be surprised to see off-shoots of this institute in the UK or Ireland soon. Sorry to spread the gloom.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Yes, the US creationists are going off the charts of insanity.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I really shouldn’t watch that kinda clips. They make me angry.
As yet another Dane I can honestly say that if it wasn’t for my blogreading I would indeed consider Americans/USAnians as lost beyond hope. it’s mainly reading you and PZed that helps me stay grounded in reality (with respect to the American people).
I have to say though, that the fact that the shrub first became president and then got elected does make me wonder about the American citizenry. I guess I could compare him to Berlusconi, though he does seem to have a better head - but certainly as much ego. His getting 50% of the votes is incomprehensible to me - and I believe many other Europeans. I fail to see a shred of leadership in the man.
So, yes, I do think that a majority of USAnians must be utterly crazy, and if it wasn’t for that nuclear arsenal, I’d leave you to your own devices - however unfair of me.
Someone mentioned AGW - sadly I don’t have much hope for the efficiency of the EU to do anything significant, but I’d cheer if they imposed a EU-wide carbon tax - and applied it to all imports that weren’t thus taxed in the country of origin.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
A decade or so ago we had a telly programme called Eurotrash here in the UK & it was all about us wacky Europeans. They dressed as penguins & ate raw fish, they had strange yodelling festivals and naked pop bands & we celebrated that. It proved to me that we Euros are every bit as nuts as people in the US.
We know that most of you lot in the US are sane, reasonable people but the nuts have powerful friends who are media savvy and we believe all we hear in the media.
Luckily some sane, level headed people are getting heard. Just this morning a story in The Independent newspaper suggested that the NHS would stop spending money on homeopathic treatments as they were not seen as scientifically proven.
Maybe some sense is prevailing. Maybe.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I really love the fact that our (the UK’s) news manges to almost tow the neutral line, but is so sarcastic anyway…
January 30th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Country: Germany.
First of all, on the topic of creationism: Well, in my experience, American creationists were viewed as something to of which to make fun. Fringe nutjobs, so to speak. What got poeple wondering what the hell was going on with the country was when it was seriously discussed to teach creationism in science class. Even the fact that such an obviously crazy idea was even seriously discussed was met, at least in my peer group, not so much with ridicule as with complete bewilderment and a beginning of worry that such an innovative country was on its way into the middle ages. So, not so much ridicule as an utter lack of understanding for what is going on. What are these people thinking? Seriously? Recently, the rise of christian fundamentalism even in main stream politics has begun to filter through, and the prospect of people like Huckabee running with some success in the primaries (instead of as a freak fringe oddity) has people worried that America could turn into a country with a state religion - the christian equivalent of Iran, if you will, only much more powerful. Not a pleasant outlook. That said, most people here are optimistic that the Democrats will win the next presidential election.
Regarding ridicule: What is now being ridiculed is the notion of “America, the land of the free”. With laws that allow non-US citizens to be interned indefinately without a trial, the destruction of privacy, and violations against human rights carried out by US authorities on an ongoing basis, American politicians talking about freedom are met with rolling eyes.
That being said, our current government is now hell-bent on destroying privacy, too. My only hope is the courts declaring those new laws as unconstitutional. I really hope that the US will turn around and remember its ancient value of freedom, and I hope that like they currently try to emulate America in killing civil rights, our leaders will also follow America when it turns back around.
I guess that is why the issue of civil rights in America is much closer to my heart: It has a greater impact on politics in my country. When the once-leader of the free world abolishes civil rights, a good part of the leaders of the rest of the free world seem to want to follow suit. When America turns into a christian fundamentalist state, I’m very confident that Germany won’t follow.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Well, the religious people obviously come across as nuts, and GWB seems a few bits short of a byte. But I don’t know that it reflects on the us population as a whole.
The more overarching impression I have is that the US population has a very paranoid protective relationship to freedom and everything that can be framed as valuing freedom. This might seem like something good if it were not for the fact that political and commercial interests keep redefining freedom to serve their ends, and you guys keep buying into it. When the attachment to freedom goes from a lucid, rational intent, into a cultural pathology with a conditioned response it is freedom no more.
And the same is more or less true of your patriotism, and your religiosity. They lack lucidity and reason. They make people behave like automatons running a sociocultural program that above all else make them want to be right about everything, regardless of whether they actually are right or not.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I’m a New Zealander and I can honestly tell you that yes, people do laugh at American’s silliness.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Well, America’s silliness and religious fundamentalism is something that is noted here. I was shocked when I saw a poll the other day that said Americans would rather have a gay president than an atheist (I’ve got nothing against homosexuals, really, it’s just a comparison on how low atheism is seen there).
No doubt Portugal is a religious country, but it’s becoming less in the last decades, with less and less people going to church or following the doctrine. Evolution is the only theory taught at schools and I’ve yet to find a person who deeply believes in creationism. There are, I’m sure, I just didn’t met them.
So, yes, US creationists make you look bad, because I’ve often commented on how dumb it is that in some US states creationism is taught at schools and evolution is not mentioned and all…
I really like my secular society and I hate people who try to mix religion and state: that’s why I’m not sure I could live in America. It’s not that “God Bless America” thing that bothers me (although it does when a President says it), it’s the conservative right who tries to impose their view that pisses me off. There is no left in America, your left is our center-right. Anyway, this has got nothing to do with the issue, so I end this comment here…
January 30th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Hello again from Romania,
And yes… (ignorant) people around here are beginning to believe that America is starting to be more and more… a nation of silly fat people. (the media has all the time stories about the weirdness of the US heartland)
I’ve seen another story about the museum some time ago… it was funny. Later I saw “Jesus camp” and I got a little frightened…
You know… under communism USA looked like the best country in the world (despite the laughable propaganda)… and even today Romania is quite a pro-American country.
But more and more people are beginning to question the sanity of some your leaders… and it seems strange that in a country where the world’s top scientist do … the real science, half of the population is ignorant about something as basic as evolution.
Romania, isn’t what you could call… an top European country, we have lots of problems to be solver (and thanks to EU money we are fixing them… fast). More than 80% percent of the population deeply trust the Orthodox Church…(and are fervent believers) religion in thought in schools (disguised as religion history)… but that doesn’t mean they will not laugh at such kind of stories and say:
… stupid Americans…. or … yep, it’s America, everything is possible
too bad that lot’s of decent people are beginning to be ashamed of being Americans because of some ignorant lunatics.
(the same here… some of our migrants… have a bad habit of getting in trouble with the law around Europe, and it sucks when they begin to label a whole nation for the action of a loud and very visible minority)
January 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
I’m English, married an American, and have lived here since 1990.
I first began to have my suspicions about you when you elected that buffoon Raygun to be your president. Then eight years ago I remember thinking that it couldn’t possibly happen again - there was simply *no chance whatsoever* that you would elect a total moron as president. But you did. Twice! There, all credibility gone - poof! After insanity like that, why is anyone surprised at the rise of creationism?
Sad. Very very sad.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Well, there is a lot of sane people in the USA, sure, but the main difference between the US and Europe is that the nutcase have far much power in the States, influencing the board of education, the presidential election and such.
And given your military power and relentlessness to use it, everybody around the world is always concerned what your next madness will be (young Earth, WMD, same deal).
January 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
As a Canadian, my perspective is perhaps not quite as useful as those of our friends from further reaches of the globe, as a good chunk of my media consumption is American in origin, but I figure I’ll chime in anyway.
We certainly have our own problems with our own special brand of wacky conservatives (thankfully held in check by a minority government), but the cynic in me can’t help but think your even-more-wacky religidiocy has some sort of enabling or crazy-through-osmosis effect on them.
That being said, some of the things being said by your current crop of presidential hopefuls would render them permanently unelectable up here. Just ask John Tory.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
I live in Austria and I also follow German media quite closely. I think what appears really strange to many people here is that American politics — in comparison to Europe — is a lot more right-wing in general. In simple economic matters, a moderate social democrat here would be viewed as an extreme liberal in the US. Both big American parties definitely have more right-wing positions regarding most topics than European conservatives.
Religion and influence of religious groups is just one facette of the general picture people have of the US. Regarding the media, the more left-wing a publication the more criticism you will read or see (the right-wing media, especially in Germany, hasn’t really gotten out of the “America good, Socialists bad” pattern yet, so they’re not very representative for the general public). The high influence of religious groups just adds to the critisism and looks particularly bizarre to secular Europeans, but is not particularly a central element of the picture. The US is that strange country where people have to take multiple jobs and have no health care, the country where people can freely buy guns, the country where people drive SUVs in urban areas and complain that the gas prices have risen to half of the price they’d pay in Europe. All of that looks pretty crazy to us. So do the creationists, but they’re not that important.
I know quite a few moderate Christians from the US, so my image of religious Americans is different, but the fundementalists are the ones with the big media budgets it appears, and they’re catching the attention of the (left-wing) media here when the topic comes up.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I’m Canadian, and quite leftwing:
Yes, U.S. creationists make me think that (collective) you are crazy. But hey, we’ve got some of the same problems here and I accept the crazies.
What really makes me wonder about America are things like having debates over torture, the anti-vaxxers, the AGW crowd -> the whole crew of people who have a position, come hell / high water / evidence against.
It’s definitely at that point where I won’t live in the States, for any purpose, until (collective) you clean up your act.
Which sucks, because the work I do has a much better market in the U.S. than here.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Mcain will be the next US president if you dont do anything about it. .
January 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Objection! Counsel is leading the witness . . .
Seriously though, I can see why folks think we’re crazy.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Speaking as an Aussie, you don’t have to look hard to find people using sardonic phrases like, “Only in America”, whether it’s the latest ridiculous law suit, creationism, or whatever.
But I don’t think anyone really believes that ALL Americans are like that, or even MOST - it’s just that the nutcases are more vocal than the rest of you. And every country has it’s own complement of nutcases.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Australians have been immensely suspicious of Americans at least since World War II (when they were “over-paid, over-sexed and over here”). My impression is that Americans in general seem to be entirely too obsessed with sex, psychiatry and superiority. The sex obsession causes a focus on trivia like gay marriage and Paris Hilton at the expense of real issues; the psychiatry obsession leads to an unhealthy interest in people’s thoughts instead of their actions; and the superiority obsession gives rise to a refusal to stop and consider that maybe America’s democracy and freedom aren’t really up to international standards any more.
As for Creationists et al: we know they’re the crackpots, but you people need to stomp a lot harder on them. You’re letting the Christian mythology run your country despite all the work the non-religious Founding Fathers put in to preventing exactly that.
Also: the idea that you would let a dropkick like George W Bush stay in power, and then consider electing an even bigger dingleberry like Mike Huckabee — that shows what a disaster your nation’s voters are. People who are found guilty of voting Republican should be required to show cause why their voter registration should not be cancelled.
Phil: we love you, and PZ, and all the other sane Americans. But your leaders, Republican AND Democrat, are corrupt and evil, and you need to get rid of them. If there’s not a revolution in the next 20 years, I’ll want a 10,000 word essay on why the hell not.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I’m an American, never been out of the country that I can remember. Maybe I shouldn’t post here, but I couldn’t resist.
Did anybody else notice that the dinosaur fossil was supposed to be 450 million years old? That puts it smack in the middle of the Ordivician. Not too many dinosaurs there, I’m afraid.
As for me, I am getting so tired of the stupidity. If my wife would let me, I think I would seriously consider leaving the country.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I find the whole thing very frustrating indeed, because interestingly enough, for all kinds of reasons, I love the USA: there’s something about the place that makes one feel alive. I have visited twice, and I have thought about attempting to emigrate there. I admire the principles on which the country was founded, and it saddens me when American citizens fail to live up to them. I feel that they are privileged to have inherited such an enlightened system of government, and too many of them don’t appreciate this (for example, those who fail to see that the protection offered by the establishment clause in the first amendment applies to Christians as much as anyone else).
Nobody’s perfect, and every nation has its nutcases (I’m fully aware of too many of them in the UK, I can assure you). However, when the advance of religious antiscientific fundamentalism begins to turn the tide of progress back towards the dark ages, towards the time when the Constitution was not yet even dreamed of, and when the people elect leaders whose only goal seems to be to ignore their role as servants and abuse their power for their own irrational ends, I call that a crisis. I care deeply about America, and I sincerely hope she pulls herself out of the stranglehold of insanity and superstition.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Canadian here.
The US used to strike me as a land where I wanted to live someday - now I want to stay here. I’m more and more aware of the crazy religious side of your country. Your latest president is a religious wacko… Heck, I think you folks are reverting to the middle ages. And that has me VERY CONCERNED because I’m just north of you. And Canada is not that different from the US! We follow your country a lot. I rarely hear religious nonsense on the news here, but I know it’s there and that they are slowly starting to creep back up thanks to the US creationist wave. There’s that creation museum in Alberta I believe and I bet there are similar places elsewhere.
I don’t think there is a debate over our schools teaching evolution yet here in Quebec, but I have that creepy feeling it might just hit us soon enough… And I fear we might bow down to it because we are a bit submissive.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Call me moderate and reasonable (as well as British by birth, but nationless by choice), but I don’t see America as a nation of overweight lunatics.
You just have the same problem everyone else does - the crazies talk loudest, and have a magnetic field that attracts a metallic element frequently used to build television cameras.
Add to this the fact that [number of Americans] / [number of television cameras in America] is a higher ratio than the same equation for any other country, and I think we can see how the skew happens.
Seriously, though - if Huckabee gets elected, I reckon I can house four science refugees in my front room before my local council find out. You will have to put up with the racist bigotry of the UK benefit classes, however, who will see you as stealing free money that only they should be entitled to.
[Summation - Americans aren’t the problem; the fundamental human tendency to follow easy answers with no logical foundation is the problem. And you don’t got no monopoly on that yet.]
January 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I’m glad they showed religious Americans that don’t take Genesis literally, but I really don’t understand how anyone can read the book of Genesis, claim it was inspired by the creator of the universe, and still say that evolution doesn’t conflict with it. Either such people have zero understanding of evolution as an unguided, algorithmic process, or they have never read Genesis. The two ideas really are at odds. No matter how much evidence supports evolution, there is no way I know of to twist that evidence into something that supports the Genesis myth.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I’m from Portugal and everybody learns about the evolution at school.
Creationism is also debated but just for historical purpose.
The people of my country, in the past, were very religious but it’s changing and we can almost say that only old people go to church.
My generation believes completely in Evolution and I have never met anyone believing in Creationism.
We do see you as being very religious and also very self-centered… Like you don’t mind about what is going on in the world.
But we know that not all Americans are like that!
Oh…we hate Bush here! He’s scarry…and so stupid! When he appears on TV everybody starts laughing!
January 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Yep, that’s how we see you. The richest nation on earth, queuing to worship a water stain, and gullible enough to believe Saddam did 9/11, had the bomb, or whatever.
Yes, I know it’s a pale stereotype. But you *did* ask…
January 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Speaking of Why I’m Embarrassed To Be An American….
January 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
In response to just about everyone who has posted in this thread today, just this:
Hell hath no fury like the uninvolved.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
We are entering another dark age. Carl Sagan was right in Demon Haunted World : a world ruled by constantly-changing science and technology makes the average Plebian reluctant to accept the discipline and knowledge needed to develop those technologies. They’re more dazzled by the Disneyland-like spectacle of a superchurch than by the patience needed to learn the theory of evolution. Plus due to the internet Americans have embraced the age of immediate gratification and the creationists have exploited this aggressively.
Americans are so coddled from a material standpoint that they don’t think about the hard work and intellectual discipline needed to achieve such a level of affluence. I think a lot of Americans would change their minds if they were given a break from the 24/7 onslaught of media-savvy right-wing Christian fundamentalism, but they never will be, much like the party in Orwell’s 1984 floods it’s members with indoctrination 24/7. It’s a generational thing and it cuts into one of the last remaining areas of segregation in the United States: religion. Before getting more churches to rethink their young earth nonsense racial issues in religion will be dealt with first. We’re a long time before the mainstream media decides to confront creationists with any kind of intelligence, if they ever do at all.
The thing I thought about when I saw this blog post was that Carl Sagan was way ahead of his time. He saw this coming ten years ago, maybe longer.
What has happened to Americans could happen to any country with a good deal of affluence and a lot of religious faith. Americans take the science involved in developing their anti-depressants for granted, but that doesn’t stop Utah from being the most prescription-addicted state in the nation. They take for granted the technology involved in bringing them fresh vegetables in the dead of winter, airplanes that are safe and reliable a great majority of the time, and advances in health and medicine and safety. But they won’t hesitate to believe the most preposterous twaddlecock when it comes to the ultimate questions of how it all came about.
When most Americans wake up to find their civil liberties taken away by the same creationist fundamentalists that they attend with Triumph of the Will-like devotion every week, maybe Americans will wake up. Or maybe they won’t. The correct vision of the future could be the foot of god stamping on a human face forever.
Even where I live in Canada creationists are starting to make inroads in the media when it comes to ID being taught to public schoolchildren. I’m thinking that to give my children (I don’t have any, but I’m not opposed to having one with the right partner) a proper, competitive science education, I’ll have to home-school them. It’s ironic of course because most people think of home-schooling parents as religious nuts. In the future, it may be necessary.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Phil, I’m an American serviceman stationed overseas for much of my career, and for a lot of the time I have been embarrassed by my own county’s behavior. An anecdote…
On November 5, 2004 I went down to the dining room of the B&B I was staying in outside London to find a newspaper referring to the previous night’s election results; “H
January 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
I’m from Germany, and when I speak with my friends and fellow students about the United States (which is quite often, mind you; after all, the developments in the USA affect us, too), the tone often is a mix of disdain and fear.
On the one hand we see you as the guys who, well, lead the world: Very wealthy, technological advanced, influental in all parts of the globe. On the other hand we see your strange political system (only two political parties? Come on!), your narrow black/white-worldview, your greed, your religious zeal, which seems to become even stronger this days, and of course your arrogance. Around here, the words “dummer” (stupid) and “Ami” (American) are quite often used together.
Of course on an intellectual level we know that there are nuances, but it is difficult to see them. That Bush got re-elected in 2004 didn’t help either. Around here, many people said something in the likes of: “Okay, their former president got a BJ in the Oval Office and they give him third degree for that, but this guy lies to them again and again and they re-elect him?”
To be short, nearly everyone I know here hopes that a Democrat will get into the White House next, and the USA will start to cooperate with other countries, and not try to bully them around anymore. For us, Bush is either a psychotic maniac or the poster child of greed and terror.
On the positive side, as soon as he is gone, many will probably become more relaxed and look at you with other eyes. What with the religious nuts of course, that is another matter. I’m afraid we will still associate arrogance and narrow-mindedness with US-Americans for the next years. A bad reputation is hard to overcome.
But to be fair, you guys probably got some wrong stereotypes of us, too, right?
Ben
January 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Let’s try that again!
Phil, I’m an American serviceman stationed overseas for much of my career, and for a lot of the time I have been embarrassed by my own county’s behavior. An anecdote…
On November 5, 2004 I went down to the dining room of the B&B I was staying in outside London to find a newspaper referring to the previous night’s election results; “How can 300,000,000 Million People Be So Stupid?”
I got a lot of sympathetic looks that morning from my British neighbors…
By the way, MY absentee ballot for that election was aparently discarded as “unusable”, along with 23,000 others from servicepeople overseas. Nice to have a say in things back home…
January 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
From trying to introduce a new product into America, you get the impression of fish bowl. If it didn’t happen in America, it didn’t happen. We had lots of high profile sites around the world, but the question would always be asked “but how many do you have in America?”
On a side note, whenever my wife asks me a question about America (history, culture, etc) and I give a valid answer, she ask how do I know?
The Simpsons!
I can usually recite the line/verse of the episode (it’s been repeated in Australia at least once every weeknight just about since it started screening).
January 30th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Yeah I think that the impression we get (at least I fervently hope its only an impression) that a significant portion of your population seems to take this stuff seriously is the really scary bit.
After all even your President says (I was going to say thinks but even I cant exaggerate that much) that religious fundamentalists with nuclear weapons are dangerous….
Just my view from deepest darkest NZ
January 30th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
All Americans I know are fine people, intelligent, funny, educated, all believe in evolution. But reading your papers, watching CNN, learning about this growth of creationism movements and similar, your politics, especially foreign, which are much more visible to me, I think I got lucky.
Never been in the US and would like to visit, since I have a huge list of things to see there among the millions of cool stuff you have… … but for now I will take holidays in places where the leadership is less fanatic, the control is no so paranoid and the likelihood of something bad happening is lower.
As a Portuguese, I feel we see Americans has generally more rude, ignorant and prepotent than adequate. Your cynical arrogance in foreign politics is especially annoying. We all know your leaders only want the oil. But fear not, as many Portuguese believe in your media, like your President and even support Creationism…
On a brighter side, most Portuguese will say America is a great country, with great feats to its record. I agreed fully.
I am just sorry for the “normal” guys in there (and out here), ‘cause everyone knows, you guys have lots of “crazy” people there, and of the nasty kind too.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
“Recently, a local councillor tried to table a motion to get a school board to teach ID in addition to evolution.” Note that in US parliamentary jargon this means the opposite of what it means in the rest of the English-speaking world. In the US, it would mean that he tried to have it laid aside. You meant, of course, that he tried to bring it up.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Adrian, uhhh, they did re-elect Stockwell Day, who, incidentally went to the same Bible College I went to before I got smart. However, Canadians tend to take a fairly dim view of wearing religion on their sleeves. You will probably find a higher percentage of Christians here that would be liberal politically, than in JesusLand.
Just to comment on that video, it’s really sad that people believe this without really thinking it through. A link on the video will take you to an interview with Ken Ham, the creator of the museum. He is totally convinced that dinosaurs lived in the garden of Eden with people and that Genesis is literal, and a scientific account.
I’d love to reprogram that animatronic dinosaur to bite that kid’s animatronic head off.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
My first job out of college sent me to live in Denmark so here are my thoughts and impressions since I was there for ‘04 through the elections…
Most Danes and Europeans can be likened to our tabloid news shows. Their focus is on the exaggerated. If its bad or makes Americans look bad you better believe they’ll report it with plenty of negative commentary. No different than CNN reporting about some fag in the Sudan being brutally stoned to death while insinuating its normal barbaric behavior for that part of the world. Which everyone at this site knows is just overblown hype.
Mentioned above which I found to be true was that most Europeans exposure to the States IS through Hollywood movies and TV shows. So most people I met seemed to think a majority of Americans live in large homes with the prerequisite SUV and small sports car. And of course we all know the arrogant American tourist stereotype comes from traveling New Yorkers
January 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
I’m from the UK, and I have to say that I’m utterly fed up with this detrimental, probably jealous stereotyping of Americans. And I absolutely cannot stand this fanatical, systematic exaggeration. The US is nowhere near as fundamentalistic as some people here would like to believe. Place your faith in opinion polls if that really makes you happy, but there’s no intrinsic reason why what people *say* they believe is of much relevance. Very likely, the average American — just like the average European — simply hasn’t thought much about God or evolution.
Someone pointed out that this snobby European attitude operates as a “defense mechanism”. I think there’s some truth to that. The truth is that my fellow Europeans are *jealous* of America’s wealth and power — and they’re ever desperate to find (and harp on) some way in which their countries are better.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Too much political correctness, thats the problem.
But yes, the stereotypical American for me is a fat, simple, over-religious person who fails to understand simple logic. Medieval-style. Luckily, I know several fit, intelligent, thinking Americans who are the exact opposite of the stereotype, or I would dismiss you all as insane.
Thank Science for Australia!
January 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
On behalf of America, I apologize to all of you for the [feces] we’ve put you through over the years, and I promise that some of us will try to do better. Some of us, at least, are fully aware that we are a nation of nutbags, and that there is much work to be done.
A few things to reassure you:
I am reasonably certain Huckabee will not be elected.
Umm, that’s all the reassurance I can offer for now.
However, on the off-chance that he, or any Republican for that matter, is elected, would any country like to extend an invitation to me? I am a house-trained atheist, and I like beer and mild weather. England, I’m looking at you.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Just to add, my ex lives in the States with my kids. Now she’s talking about homeschooling them. My youngest daughter, I’m fine with it, because she is mentally and physically handicapped (Down syndrome and Cerebral Palsy), but I fear for my oldest who is now 11.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
JD: America’s wealth and power is dimming, unfortunately. It’s been destroyed so quickly. Oh so quickly.
And what’s the next nation in line to be the most wealthy and powerful? China? We’re in trouble.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Speaking as a Irish bloke in his mid forties I think I can safely say that the fact that so many American’s believe in such things as creationism (and The Power of Prayer, and Televangelism in particular) as endlessly funny. It gets less funny once one starts to see the influence of fundamentalist and otherwise extremist sects on the political system (we have a bit of history there and I can tell you it’s always a bad idea when religion and politics meet).
The US is unfortunately not alone and its companions in the rogues gallery of states where such links between fundamentalist belief and political power are similar does not make for a pretty picture.
Keep fighting the good fight Phil - you are a very good example of the sort of spirit that made America great. Many of the best ideas that mankind ever had have come from your country and we all know this we just think it’s a pity that that fact is dimmed slightly by your current plague of nutjobs.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Serbian here. I’m afraid that the prevailing attitude is ‘unbridled hatred’. It’s the ‘99 bombing. Annoys people something fierce, I’ve found. A significant minority, on the other hand, worships everything western including, of course, the United States.
As for me, well, I find myself in increasing despair over the fact that the most powerful nation on earth apparently wants to regress to pre-enlightenment days. Still, people like our very own Bad Astronomer and the varying denizens of the Sciblogs hive (PZ comes to mind) instill some small measure of hope.
However, if you elect Huckabee I’m moving. To Andromeda. Safe is safe.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I think most Australian’s look at America and laugh while at the same time hoping it doesn’t get worse.
I know that the fundamentalist Religious types and general crazies don’t make up that big a portion of the population but they do seem to be the most vocal.
Possibly a bigger problem is tv shows like Jerry Springer, they don’t really show Americans in a good light.
I’m in the US at the moment and I’m having a great time but listening to some of the things that the presidential candidates are saying is scary as hell (metaphorically speaking of course).
January 30th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Well, so we Americans are silly? What’s the point? How many in the UK believe the crop circles were designated “landing zones” for aliens or that the Loch Ness monster exists? A bunch! So, you say we are gullible. Do you mean like the Germans in ‘33. Or perhaps, “Peace in our time.” Goodness, the list in European history is endless.
Nevertheless, if one seeks the American character, one must look beyond the newpapers, TV shows, and Britney Spears (which, I admit, are goofy). In doing so, you might just find a depth obviously so foreign to you Europeans that it defies how you perceive us.
Unknown to your way of thinking, we are a capitalist society, and for the most part, very, very free to do as we choose. What this means, in essence is, anything that sells, is going to be in print or on TV. Sure, we are gullible, ain’t no doubt about that, so what? Good grief! Don’t base your assumptions by a great ignorance of depth on your part.
Sure, many Americans can sink to idiocy, and I will be the first to admit we do not present a good image to the world–ever how the term “good image” is defined in whichever European country you reside. Does that mean your analysis covers all Americans? How foolish are you? You are well educated. Should I base my thoughts of Europeans by the French alone? Humph! I am part French, but I dare not do that.
My heritage is of six European countries, and I’m damn proud of it. I lived and worked in Norway for almost nine years. I, too, could whine about all of what I think is bad about Europe. What would be the pont? I am proud and honored to be a small part of the whole lot of you, but do yourselves a favor, look beyond the glitz and glare of the America you see. Like it or not, we are inexpliciably joined no less than Siamese twins. Separate we shan’t survive. We are together linked, regardless of what you think, for (hopefully) many, many generations to come.
Mike in New Orleans, LA USA
January 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Our media (Poland) doesn’t even mention the silliness regarding US creationists. As far as the opinion bout US - well, one more reason to think Americans are stupid. That seems to be the general opinion of Americans in Europe or Australia, or Japan. The education in the USA is very poor, lots of people do not have basic general knowledge about the world we live in - and that is a fact, not a general opinion.
I come from a mostly Catholic country, as everywhere we do have a lot of stupid people (they do seem to make a large part of the populace) but everybody here knows “we come from zi monkeys”, that Earth goes around the Sun not the other way around, that Earth is not flat, where are all the continents etc etc It’s all basic education. I used to live in the US for several years and noticed so much stupidity, folks who could not read finishing high school,not knowing who is the current president of their own country, not knowing where Canada is, amazing stuff.
Creationism does not have anything to do with faith. It has to do with lack of education, stupidity, cynical way of creating some political support or a kind of cultish movement.
Also Scientology - that seems to be even worse than creationists, who are threatening mainly education and common sense. This cult is really sinister and i do not see much attention give to the reporting of this cult’s activities.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
A Canadian here.
I can only speak about my own views.
For the most part, I view Americans as mostly nice, right wing, xenophobic, jingoist, religious nutjobs on the verge of going ape****. Yes, a strange description, but with a good reason.
Normally, my interactions with Americans are much like my interactions with Canadians, until you get on certain topics (foreigners, war, GWB, religion, immigrants, etc), and things go all Twilight Zonish. If you stay away from those kinds of topics, most Americans are jolly nice people.
I’m reminded of an incident that occurred in Florida at DisneyWorld. Going through security (where they search everyone’s bags), the guard searching my wife’s purse commented that he liked my shirt. Now, this is somewhat unusual, as my shirt was from ThinkGeek, and had some obscure geek/hacker/coder reference, and the security guard was likely in his sixties. Surprised, I asked him if he knew what it meant. He said that yes, he did, and then started speaking in tongues about the virgin Mary.
The shirt in question said “There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.”
January 30th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Speaking as an American, it troubles me that so many people from around the world have such a distorted view of the US, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised considering the anti-US bias of the major news media.
We have all kinds of wackos in America, but there is hardly a majority from any one camp. And the amount of blood that has been shed by the American people to free the rest of the world from various forms of fascism and totalitarianism over the last century seems to be forgotten without so much as a whiff.
Go ahead and make fun of Bush or our wacky fundamentalists. Don’t worry, when there is a threat to western civilization we will still be here to protect you. Nothing really ever seems to change.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
As an Australian, I can unfortunately say that the answer is yes. We never hear about the smart Americans, the intelligent and well-reasoned people who I know from personal experience do actually exist. They get drowned out by the crazies, the scary ones who paint such a bad picture of the country.
I resent the fact that I have to follow and have at least a general knowledge of American politics. I resent it because I live on the other side of the world, but whoever wins this coming election *is* going to have an impact on my life, just as they will on the entire world. So I hope like crazy that it isn’t some fundamentalist whack-job who wants to destroy Middle Eastern theocracies while fashioning his own back home.
And it’s a scary possibility because it seems so plausible to us. There really is a growing impression in the rest of the world that the US is, as a whole, abandoning science and reason and slipping into an intellectual dark age. When I hear an American speaking intelligently about issues of science and religion, I feel an embarrassingly large surge of relief and respect. It shouldn’t feel like such a surprise, but it *does*. It’s stereotyping, I know, but it’s a difficult thing not to do these days.
To close off, though, Phil, I just want echo what so many others have said in their comments: you’re one of those intelligent, rational, articulate Americans who are being drowned out by the scary people. You do fantastic work on this site, and I hope it continues. Shout from the rooftops and keep reminding foreigners like me that people like you exist.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
USA
DOOMED
January 30th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
The problem is it is moving into Canada. While walking the dog in morning after doing a night of observing I struck up conservation with a fellow camper. In very short order after learning I had been doing some astronomy he asked me if I was a creationist or an evolutionist. It is like a virus.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
I’m a Canadian who has travelled widely, and has spent several years in the US.
The general sterotypes of Americans that are held here would best be summed up with video clips. One of a crowd chanting “USA! USA! USA!”. Another of a man with a southern accent yelling “Praise Jesus!”. A third, showing some politician (and I don’t mean Bush…just about any former president would do here) explaining why it’s vital to bomb/invade/subvert country X. A clip of somebody firing an automatic rifle while whooping madly. Some footage from the LA riots, perhaps.
Is this fair? Probably not, but it is fairly representative of the manner in which the average Canadian views the US and its citizens.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I wouldn’t say it’s true that Canadian media are going out of their way to make folks from the US look like whack-jobs. No more than we do to anybody (ourselves included). If anything, they’re going out of their way to be kind.
Besides, the US media is doing a plenty good job of that on its own. It doesn’t need our help for that.
But yes, as I understand general opinion around here (offer void in Alberta), what we’re seeing from the south isn’t very reassuring.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Just to add something interesting into the mix….
Here in the UK, we had Tony Blair in power for 10 years, who it seems is a “deeply religious man”. However, his main spin doctor famously said “we don’t do God” when a journalist was asked Blair about his faith. Why? It was viewed as controversial, and damaging to his image. In fact, a few months ago it came to light that Blair was planning on converting to Catholicism whilst in power - this was front page news, on the basis that the PM was actively practicing religion.
Contrast this with Bush, and the numerous current presidential candidates, for whom it is seen as bad PR to “believe in evolution”.
These spin doctors know what plays well to the electorate, surely it’s rather telling that the opposite advice is given in our two countries?
January 30th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Mexican here:
Well, for starters: AMERICA IS A CONTINENT. I really hate when you guys think America is YOUR country. It’s not, you see, there are other countries in it. So there’s the first thing, wich really shows your total disrespect for other countries.
Cheap crappy fast food.
No culture whatsoever.
Creationism.
Scientology.
Christianity.
Your country is on its way to become a Fundamentalist Christian Dictatorship, or whatever you want to call it.
You have absolutely no respect for other countries, traditions, cultures, etc.
You invade countries as a hobby.
Bush.
Nascar.
Not a gram of common sense.
Hollywood.
And your english is terrible, the brits do a better job
Of course, that’s how we see your country in general, there are obviously individuals, like yourself that don’t fit at all the description.
I been reading your blog for even before it was a blog, and I think very highly of the likes of you, Pamela, Fraser, Randi, etc. Sagan is a personal “hero” for me, I love Asimov’s novels (yea, russian, but from USA at heart).
Really, you have to STOP refering to your country as America. You should know better.
Best regards BA!
January 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Tman:
It’s probably worth noting that most of us non-Americans get our views of the US largely from American sources. This is even more of a factor in Canada, where we get much of our news from the same papers, tv channels, etc. as you do. I even listen to American radio stations.
As for “the amount of blood that has been shed by the American people to free the rest of the world from various forms of fascism” please do forgive me when I roll my eyes at that comment. The USSR shed more blood trying to defeat fascism in 1941 than the USA has shed in every war in its history put together. Canada has shed more blood, in proportion to population, than the USA has in order to defeat fascism. Much the same could be said for the UK, Poland, Yugoslavia, and many others. Puhleeeze…
Note that I am very far from anti-American. I merely take issue with this inane babble about how the world would collapse into chaos if not for the USA.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Hello im from Denmark.my name is Jan.
the Nasa moon landings,has always been taken as Fact by the danes.
i have never met a moonhoaxbeliever in my life,and i hope i never will.
most people 40+ saw the first moonlanding on live TV.
the Intelligent Design affair,is not really covered by the media here.
so many danes have no idea of what you are facing in the US.
but No one i have spoken to about ID agrees with it at all.
I hope you succeed in driving that ID crap right in to the ground.
And then some!
January 30th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Hello, I am just another person here to give an international view. I am a citizen of Israel. Because of your many beneficial acts for our country (And of course your formidable army) our media does not often bode ill well of you. This is however quite different in popular culture, where Americans are considered to be quite dim-witted, and more so every day.
No offense was meant to anyone.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
“Well, for starters: AMERICA IS A CONTINENT.” No, North America (”Norteamérica”) is a continent.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Mike B.,
I can assure you that you were not alone in your eye rolling. Probably most of the folks commenting already did the same. I find it interesting that you believe that the USSR defeated fascism considering that after WWII it went on to become more devastating to freedom and personal liberty than Germany ever dreamed of.
However, I do not believe that the world would collapse in to chaos if not for the USA. Depending on where you live, the world is already in chaos (see:Darfur). What I have a problem with is the anti-US bias I see mostly coming from European voices that want to lump all of America in to the same bible-thumping box. This is just ridiculous.
America has made incredible contributions to the world that have made it a better, safer place to live, and will continue to do so. For instance, if an asteroid was discovered that actually DID have a high probability of hitting the Earth, which country do you believe would be doing the heavy lifting?
January 30th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I live in Australia.
My exposure to America comes from the Internet, Australian media coverage of America and American popular culture (books, movies, tv), probably in that order. Here’s a few thoughts:
- Our media has some fairly hard and fast broadcast standards, particularly regarding political reporting and comment. Most Australians would be horrified at the content of something like Fox News for instance. We aren’t immune to bias in media, but when it happens, it gets spanked hard and by multiple sources. Part of that is a strong and editorially independent national broadcaster.
- Religious fundamentalists get media coverage here, but typically are portrayed as a reactionary lunatic fringe by the media. Even mainstream religious figures don’t get a free ride. There is no assumption made that a listening or watching audience are christian for instance, and the viewpoint you hear is “from the Anglican church” or “from the Catholic church” and only very rarely of the form “Christians believe …”.
- I’d say US religious fundamentalism is scary, but most Aussies probably haven’t given the issue much thought. On the other hand, there would be few Aussies that don’t have a strong negative opinion about US gun laws. Much, much more of an issue.
- Very few Aussies are politically minded even though voting is compulsary over here. That being said, most Australians that I know that do know something about American politics are horrified by it. If a large lobby group pays you a lot of money to push a political agenda over here, you tend to get thrown in jail. The perception of US government over here is that that is business as usual for the USA.
All that being said, the Americans I know are almost uniformally wonderful, casual, easy-going, intelligent and well-educated. And equally horrified by most of these same issues.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Mexico here
As far as educational curriculum concerned, here we teach our children the theory of evolution. Most parents disregard the theory just because they feel uncomfortable with the notion that we evolved from ape like creatures, but they don’t make a fuss over it Many people accept evolution and leave the spiritual to religion. There’s a clear distinction about science and religious belief. And in some instances, I’ve seen, heard and read about the concern of some partyes, even religious, about the missuse of religion in trying to impose it to the educational curriculum. But of course, we have our share of wackos too.
When talking to my friends or coleages, most of them speack about politicians in the USA as real religious freaks, and the increasing danger that that might represent for the future of the human kind. Sad in deed, not something to laugh about.
About that comment from Haplo, I must concour. He’s right, Whenever some of you guys ask me if I’ve ever been to America, I reply: Why, I live in America. Mexico to be precise. Then some reply NO, I mean America. Mexico is Mexico. America is América. Most sensible North Americans agree that this is just a convention, and then correct themselves about that las question and ask: Have you been to the USA? That makes a world of difference!But that’s not the issue here.
I like you guys. The reasonable ones. That’s why I despise creationist cretins. From wherever they are. And most of my North American friends are really cool. Smart, reasonable and fun to talk with.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Yes. Sorry, but you are a nation of people who think like that.
It’s sites like badastronomy.com that remind me (and us, I think) that you don’t /all/ think like that, and, as a result, that there is hope for you—and, as a result, for us all.
Please, BA, keep it up. You’re the voice of sanity in a country that really, really needs you right now. And 5000 miles away, I really, really need you too, because we’re all affected by what happens over there.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
@Mytho
I’m a Canadian. I can assure you that most Canadians do not consider America to mean North America. That may be the case in Mexico, but I don’t believe it to be considered the norm elsewhere.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
I’m an American and a 2nd Generation Imigrant of Irish, German, Swedish, French and Welsh Ancestry.
To be blunt, my country has scared me silly since the 1970’s. Everytime we put a decent thinking person in office they are shot and killed, or they are immediately followed by a complete nutjob that not only undoes any good the previous person did, but then makes matters worse in a zealous attempt to “root out Evil”. Which is a smoke screen for eliminating anyone in a position of resposibility that belongs to the other party.
I had though by now that there would have been another revolution, however things have gotten so bad, my guess is that the first state at this point that tried to succeed from the union, would be nuked into oblivion.
Yes that is honestly what I think my own country will do if we ever try to revolt, or even just clean up the currently entrenched Republic/Capitalist leaders we are stuck with for our choices, Democrats and Republicans both.
Basicaly we are living here with a danged if you do, danged if you don’t situation.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Make them “think” we’re crazy?
Our presidential candidates have to mention God more than the Pope does. We ARE crazy.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I’m Mexican, the image we have of americans is that of a sandal wearing gringo, hahaha
just kiddin…
Even though Mexico is a mostly catholic country people know it was evolution… i’ve never heard of anyone actually taking the bible as literal as in the US, i had no idea of that 6000 year old nonsense until i read about it on the net.
But yes, people do think you’re silly, sorry, the news only show your raving lunatics and britney spears… oh.. it’s the same ;-)…
January 30th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
USA is going crazy with creationism, scientology and moronic news coverage with britney, while the UK, a great country, is going bananas with political correctness with only Top Gear remaining an island of normalcy in the media.
And the presidential candidates in the states, some of whom are creationists? LOL
January 30th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Canada here.
First the good stuff: you are a talented nation. Entrepreneurs, leaders, hardworkers. No contest.
From visiting a few times, I am always surprised on how POLITE people are on the street.
Yet, again from my visits, people in stadiums can be so darn arrogant and threatening to somebody who’s simply different, or who just wears the wrong team’s shirt. Land of the free? Well that,
I guess, is as long as you fit in. But I’m not saying that’s the majority.
You (as a people) appear to me as lacking in common sense at times. Not serving beer before noon in a bar just next to the stadium on game day? Come on! Demanding an ID even though the whole group is above 30? Those kind of rules stink, really, when you’re out-of-town and you just want to enjoy yourself. Your culture is very rigid.
Next, why elect a president who’s never ever been out of country? Ok, the man/woman must lead his own country, yet the function of leader of the most powerful nation of the world also requires some minimal ambassador/open mindedness qualities.
Why elect him twice? Why tolerate the 935 lies in so few years? I digress, but I believe the political price a party would pay in any other country for such behavior would have been simply catastrophic. But now in the USA, I wonder if it’s even still talked about now just a week after the publication of that report. That, I cannot understand.
Also some of your less shiny side these days is obviously the total control the state is trying to have over the people. Think “national threat advisory”’s colorful chart.
You are patriotic, which is fine, but please don’t be pushy about it. Patriotism is no excuse for backing a president into an invasion; yet people who oppose are, immediately, labeled “unpatriotic”.
My personal opinion is that too much of your economy is focused in the arms industry, such that to maintain jobs (and keep the people happy), well, conflict is what the state is seeking.
I agree with a previous comment that said your Christian fundamentalism is unhealthy and very comparable to Islamic extremists.
Anecdote: on a huge, huge billboard by the highway: “God bless our troops” with the picture of a soldier and his automatic rifle. To tell you the truth, I sure didn’t feel like messing with a fellow like that. I was kind of scared of the image where an American might have found the picture beautiful. But please tell me: why the reference to God in there! Associating God and war is totally nonsensical!
You seem engaged in a path of intolerance where your views must be imposed, and do not seem to care that the rest of the world is amazingly interesting and enjoyable the way it is.
I am sorry if any of this could be interpreted as “States-bashing”, this is not the intention. I have lots of respect for all your achievers.
However, from an outside point of view, I feel I am witnessing the beginning of the end of an empire, not unlike many that have passed before.
Let’s hope that starts turning around next year.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
BA, what a dumb question you asked.
You need not care how the “rest of the world” (as represented
by generally left-leaning readers here) “feel about” your home
country. Feelings, like talk, is cheap. Go for data - dollars,
treaties, armies, flow of people and products. That could tell
you what people actually do.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Wow, quite an outpouring of fear and vitriol!
First, calm your fears. Huckabee doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in, uh, the solar photosphere of being elected. After next Tuesday I predict it will be McCain vs. Clinton/Obama. You might as well get used to it.
I’m amazed at the all of the people responding here that buy into the “Bush stole the election” theory. Every single recount went to him. I was just as distressed/amazed at Clinton’s reelection in ‘96, but didn’t consider it a conspiracy (BTW, I belong to neither party).
I’ve always thought that the greatest way to show the positive influence of the US in the rest of the world is to threaten to pull all of our military bases and support from everywhere and become totally isolationist.
You guys want to engage in centuries-old genocidal warfare against your countrymen who believe in a slightly different version of your shared experience? Knock yourselves out.
You hate us so much? OK, adios. Have a good time defending yourself against your neighbors who also hate you. It’s all on you now.
US capitalism and multinationals ruining your culture? No problem, we’re outta here. Have fun supporting your standard of living trading only with your neighbors.
We’re only after your oil? Hmm, show me again the fleet of US owned tankers filling up in the Persian Gulf, just taking it under the guard of the military, instead of pouring money into the local country’s economy. Of course, we get the majority of our imported oil from…Canada! Really. After that it’s Mexico. Cutting off the entire Middle East could be made up for with local drilling and rising prices. Personally, I think $5/gallon gasoline would do a world of good in getting us off of our addiction. Even a steady $3/gal has caused alternative energy to be the largest growth industry since semiconductors.
I’m glad, if embarrassed, that we give you so much entertainment. You can thank us later for still being able to watch us in your native language and not German (with appropriate apologies to the current generations of Germans).
- Jack
January 30th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I am amazed, not only by the opinions of some individuals but by what I see in the media.
I lost all my good opinion of Time Magazine a few years ago when I read an article defending the American missionaries that went to Afganistan, Iran and similar places illegally to “show the real god” to any child they could find unguarded by his parents.
Also, when an American colonel declared that they were winning the war in Iraq because their god was better than Allah, I expected to see most of the good press in the USA incensed, but I found only mild disapproval.
I am sorry to say it, but the short answer is yes, I would expect to find a lot more intolerant fundamentalists than open minded intellectuals in any place in the USA.
Just ask the typical American one question: why are Israel’s jews the only people on Earth that can retake a region that was theirs for a while, 2600 years ago? Why can’t England reclaim India or the United States?
January 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Dounk: “Associating God and war is totally nonsensical!” I’m not sure, did you read the old testament? X_o
January 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Speaking as a Kiwi, its always hard to see US related stuff on the telly and the “intertoobs” without rolling one’s eyes and saying “only in America”. I do try and take it all in and think “this is the media and they only print\post\broadcast stuff to annoy” but there’s so much woo coming out of the States that its hard not to be judgemental.
But as the old adage goes ‘People in glass houses should not throw stones’ - we have our fair share of weirdos and nut jobs here too. The Destiny Church, an evangelical money hoovering operation, recently combined with another Christian group to form a combined political party. Their aim is to have candidates in most electorates by the next election. They have tried before with the Destiny NZ Party, but didn’t get very far. The only difference between NZ and the US is that very few people vote for this party. Considering the number of votes they get, and the number of supposed followers, its clear that many of the followers don’t even vote for them! My point is that, no matter which country you are in, you’ll always have fruits on the fringe. Just depends how much they get listened to.
Its another interesting fact to note that nearly 35% of all New Zealanders said they did not have a religion at the last census in 2006. Big tick for sensible thinking there I reckon.
Also, we know there are plenty of logical thinkers and scientific minded people in the US as well. Thanks to Phil, James Randi and others, we have a wealth of ammo when it comes time to fight the woo talkers.
So as much as I’d like to say “ner ner, all loonies and truthers in the States” I know its not true. Keep fighting the good fight Phil!
January 30th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
What a joke… What… A… JOKE…
January 30th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Waste of Money, Waste of Time, Ignorant People not open to other ideas and concepts and facts. Incompetence at its best.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
All this stuff about Americans being uneducated compared with people of other civilized countries: is there actually any proper evidence to back this up? My own fairly extensive experience of Americans doesn’t vindicate this idea at all. The American education system is undoubtedly harder than what we have in Britain, and I believe American university students typically have greater general knowledge than their British conspecifics, who tend to be clueless except when it comes to their specialist subjects.
Europe (especially in places like Poland, with laughably low GDP per capita, despite the haughty attitude of the Polish poster here) is far from perfect itself. To give you a decent outline of the problems I see in my own country, I’d need all day. The jealous, spiteful posters should for once get off America’s nuts and show support for our American friends here, instead of gloating over their country’s problems.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
[…] few news articles in the past year about the creationist museum in the US. This latest blog post on BadAstronomy though has bought it all back to […]
January 30th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Western Canadian - American exceptionalism has always set my teeth on edge, even before your right turn into insanity. Now I refuse to even transit the country to get somewhere else. Many individuals are fine people, but dealing with any government entity is scary, especially now that us furriners can be disappeared.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I’m Australian.
I think that the U.S sheds light on some things. Religious groups have power, but only in the U.S do you seem to see big reactions to that power hitting a secular force.
Personally I think that the stuff about religion which comes out of America, is deliberately selected and interpreted by outsiders according to their own worldview. That is, you have nothing to be ashamed of. People want the U.S to all those negative things.
I grew up thinking it was natural to be taught religion at school.
I also underestimated religion’s influence on my own family. I think we only hear about it in America, because Americans actually have a good chance of getting free. Rather than simply accepting “thats the way it is”.
Also this has awoken my anger at a most recent argument. God I hate that stupid “define what a day is” crap used in defense of genesis. Seriously, wtf!? Interpretive translation of a “day” used there yet a homosexual is a homosexual later on. Pffft.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Any chance you could post another copy of that video? It looks like that one’s been taken down.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Tman:
I didn’t actually claim that the USSR defeated fascism on its own. Even if I had made that claim, the fact that the USSR was totalitarian in its own right doesn’t have much bearing on the matter. My point was that it’s silly to say that the US has shed so much blood to defeat fascism, as a great number of other countries shed more.
I would rather that you argue with what I say, rather that what you’d prefer I had said. I view the US as an extremely rich country, the most powerful that has ever existed, and with a huge population. Of course it’s going to have a lot of vocal idiots. Every year Americans seem to dominate the Nobel awards, but it’s much more interesting for the nightly news to show the loud morons than to showcase the accomplishments. Nobody (who is sane) doubts that the US has made incredible contributions to the world. I could easily spend a few thousand lines here listing them.
I should note here that when I offer a critique of Italy or France or the UK or Canada or Russia or Israel (and I’ve done that for each of them, many times), I very rarely am answered with such defensiveness as you are displaying here. I am quite curious as to why that would be.
As for your question about the asteroid, it’s more complicated than you probably think. A whole lot of countries would get involved if we found a large object that was likely to hit the earth. If it meant global annihilation, I’d imagine that the EU would (and could afford to) cough up as much cash as the US might spend on diverting it. I’d imagine Japan might throw a good deal of money in as well.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Michelle: Well, no, I haven’t read any part of the Bible since high school. I do try to go by “Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself” every day though, which is more like what I meant.
Are you the same Michelle from Québec, or the spoof?
Nat: the video takes several seconds to get into motion. The link worked when I tried after reading your post.
Dounk from Québec, where speaking two languages every day helps keep the mind open.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
As an American… I’d just like to say that with all the science, religion, and political threads that I’ve read here over the years… this may be one of the most enlightening. Seeing the opinions of all of you wonderful people from around the world about this, the country I live in and have lived in my whole life, tells me that the problems we have, at least as perceived by the rest of the world, are as varied and deep seeded as the opinions I’ve just read. I’ve read opinions calling us arrogant… scary… looney… lazy… fundamentalist… as well as innovative, freedom loving and inspirational. I’ve read that we are far worse off then where *you* are… I’ve read that we’re not that far worse off, but are perceived as such… and you know what? It’s all true. All of it.
We are troubled… but hopeful. Stupid… but intelligent. Crazy yet moderate… we are all these things seen through different viewpoints by different eyes.
But more than any of that… we are here, able to DISCUSS what we are, and listen to what all of you have to say about us. And I ensure you that you will get no better audience of thoughtful, critical, and intelligent persons as you will at Phil’s fine site. It’s why I love this site… the discussions are often heated… the opinions far ranging and passionately defended. No matter where I lived, it makes me feel happy and lucky to be alive. And the people who regular this site will continue to do what each we can to ensure at least some part of America continues to try to improve, and do so for the right reasons.
So excuse me while I wax rhapsodic, but I’m feeling all mushy… *sniff*.
I just want to say thanks to all of you who posted to this thread… whether what you had to say was critical, supportive… mean spirited or even-tempered. It’s all heard. And it’s all important to know… at least it is to me. So thank you.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Portuguese here.
Despite being traditionally the second most pro-american country in Western Europe (second only to the UK) I can tell you offhand that the general opinion about America has never been as low in my country as it is now. A couple of years ago there was a europe-wide poll about which countries posed the largest threats to world stability. Guess what: Israel won, the US came second, far ahead of places such as Iran and Noth Korea. The portuguese people’s opinion was pretty in line with the rest of Europe.
However this has much less to do with the bigoted ignorant IDiots you have there - we also have our share of those morons, although in the political scene laicism and absence of religious references are very highly regarded by the people, irrespective of one’s beliefs - than with the people you elect (or should I say “elect”?) and the brain dead yaddayadda about “saving the world” that is constantly coming out of the US. Bush and the morons that voted for him did more damage to the image of the US around the world than anything else. Compared to that, creationism is a matter of giggles and nothing more.
On the other hand, of course, the two are linked together, so…
January 30th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
“Moon hoax believers, psychics, and creationists. Is this how the world sees us?”
This is not how I saw the US before I started to read your blog (and Pharyngula). If you would not write so often about these fringe opinions, I would never have thought about them. But I still see the United States as the country of high learning and science, easy social interaction (my cousin lives in Atlanta and I visit now and then), generosity, Apple computers, and free and innovative thinking.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I’m an American who has lived in Europe, and I know they have their “crazies” too. I knew a man who firmly believed that he was a citizen of Atlantis (before it fell into the sea).
January 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
I’m from Australia, and for what it’s worth, I think that most of my fellow citizens are bemused rather than alarmed by a lot of the religious fanaticism in the US. I think most people appreciate and understand how diverse a nation you are, and how - as with all media - the ‘moderate’ voices never makes the headlines.
The US is a wonderful mass of contradictions; it seems to have the best examples and the worst examples of all human culture. Perhaps that is the consequence of a strong emphasis on individual freedom over collective good. (And not necessarily a bad thing, I would argue).
If nothing else, at least the debate over religious matters and church/state separation is openly contested in the US. In my country, for example, we have a tax-payer funded scheme to put chaplains (not counsellors, but specifically religious people) into public and private schools. While I doubt this will breed the same sort of religiosity as there is in the US (scepticism seems - thankfully - part of the Australian character), I still find such policies both immoral and insidious. They are never challenged (probably as there is very little basis to make such a challenge) or even discussed.
Also, as a sidebar, it really annoys me when critics of the current US administration are labelled “anti-American”. I think most intelligent people can draw a clear distinction between judging the entire people of a nation on the one hand, and the misdeeds of a particular government on the other. I, for one, was against most of the policies of the former Australian federal government, but I was not “anti-Australian” as a result!
That’s my 2 cents.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I am another Canadian. I like Americans and much of your country. But I am disturbed and alarmed by what appears to be an intense and unbounded intrusion of religion into your politics and social discussions.
I am saddened by the changed direction and tone of the US and the consequent demise of respect througout the world that has occurred over the last few years. I wonder if Americans see this and how long it will take to regain this respect and trust.
When I first saw it, the tongue in cheek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland hit a little too close to home.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
I think peoples perception of the US is often split into 2 often contradictory camps.
The first is that it is a nation of crazies. We get a lot of images of religious fanatics, swaying in trances as some guy with a bad toupe pushes them over claiming to ‘heal’ them; of peole being quizzed in the street and not knowing where asia is on a map, or who Julius Caesar was; of people sending all their money to an old guy on the TV, who in return sends them a vile of ‘holy water’ which will bring them miracles (the only miracle being how he manages to get away with stealing all those peoples’ money and living tax free on a million dollar income); of your president being too embarrassing to watch, with his gaffs and apparent lack of knowledge - and then getting re-elected! Of people claiming that the earth is 6000 years old, men lived with dinosaurs, and Darwin led to Hitler, and people in authority taking them seriously and actually moving to get that taught in schools.
The second perception is rather more flattering. The US is seen at the same time to be a place of intellectual freedom, where science and other academic research is well funded and supported, and of intellectualism generally (for every image of a dumb jock, there is one of a brainy nerd who is far too smart for his age - indeed, young children who appear in fims and tv often appear quite precocious.), and afterall, this is the country that gave us the Simpsons. Then you have the glitzy and glamourous lifestyles portrayed by the hollywood elite. The only problem as far as the cynical British are concerned, is a tendency to take themselves too seriously.
The problem is the second perception is becomming more and more overshadowed by the first. The importance attached to religion in the US, and the unquestioning obedience to religious authority that this brings is what many find frightening. The Churches in the US seem to be coming more and more powerful, and their message seems to be ‘don’t ask questions, don’t trust in education, just be obedient and do as we say, because we speak for god’.
I have read a lot of bloggers who laugh at the idea of Huckabee being elected. We used to laugh at the idea of Bush being re-elected. I have spent a few months is the US, and individually, the people are like anywhere else in the world (if a bit on the loud side
), so I’m hoping common sense will prevail…
Every country has its ill-educated, wackos and woo pushers, but they’re not really given too much attention. The reason that the US ones get so much press which leads to this national stereotype is that US policy has so much more effect on the rest of the word than that of other countries, so people sit up and take notice when they get positions of power.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Coming from New Zealand where according to the last census the largest single denomination was atheist/non-religious the US does come over as somewhat crazy and certainly very very arrogant. However the weirdest thing for me is how prudish the US is (probably of a result of the high proportion of fundamentalists). Incidents such as the Janet Jackson “wardrobe malfunction” provoked what to us seemed to be a total overreaction on the part of the “Religious loonies”.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Thanks for the laugh, Phil.
Self-loathing and anti-Americanism — always cutting-edge, fashionable, and admirable in the liberal quarters.
So, tell me, how far away are we from a scientific McCarthy-ism on presidential candidates? “I saw Hillary Rodham at CHURCH! She worships the invisible man!”
If you think the U.S. cornered the market on stupidity you haven’t traveled much, or very far.
People are people. To be judged on their own merits. To generalize makes you look foolish and only your “self-loathing” saves you from being called worse names. Had you made such generalizations about minorities or women you’d be vilified.
All in all, every time you feel motivated to tap your keyboard and leave behind political prose you define where science and logic depart.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
@ Thoms Seifert
You mentioned up above all the people who say things like “I thank God the search and rescue party found me in time”. The ones that peg my irony meter are the ones, most recently during the California fires last fall, who said, (And this is a paraphrase of a quote I heard on the national news) “I thank God that He spared my house, even though so many of my neighbors lost everything.”
The arrogance, the incredible egotism inherent in statements like that burns, and disgusts me.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“People are people. To be judged on their own merits. To generalize makes you look foolish and only your “self-loathing” saves you from being called worse names. Had you made such generalizations about minorities or women you’d be vilified.”
Ummm… but he DIDN’T… and frankly that’s a pretty weak analogy.
Phil gave his opinion on a subject which HE believes makes our country look silly and intellectually stunted. But instead of simply stating it as fact and speaking for everyone else… like you just did… he went out of his way to ASK us for honest, unfiltered, unabridged opinions… seems far from “foolish” to me.
“All in all, every time you feel motivated to tap your keyboard and leave behind political prose you define where science and logic depart.”
Huh? Really? I totally missed that…
January 30th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Wow… I can’t say I’m surprised. It depresses me to no end that we have fallen apart and continue to do so. I’ve been thinking of leaving for quite a while, but I can’t afford to.
I’m a student teacher in North Carolina (US), and last year our state passed a law requiring every public school to hold the pledge every day. I teach first graders… I have a student who cannot read the word “round,” and yet he is forced to stand up five mornings a week, put his right hand over his heart, and recite the following:
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
Technically, we can’t force them to stand or recite the pledge. However, the classroom teacher tells them all to stand, look at the flag, put their hands over their hearts, and recite. If you’re 6 or 7 years old, why would you refuse?
I usually stand, because I have no desire to involve my students in my own political grievances, but I do not place my hand over my heart, nor do I recite the words. I do listen, though. I listen to my students all promise something they don’t understand to something that will screw most of them over in about 10 years (if it hasn’t started, already). I listen to the words that I used to recite… the words I used to believe.
The truth is, I want to have patriotism. I want to love the place where I live, despite its faults… and I feel like this country has so much potential and has done some wonderful things. One day, I hope it can be a place that I am proud of, again.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Mythos, speaking as a Canadian, I am greatly offended by referring to the continent that our 3 countries share as America. It is more correctly known as North America. Please refrain from implying that my country is a part of America. Yes, there may be similarities, but I can assure you that we are in fact separate and distinct. I would not suggest approaching a Canadian on the street and telling him that he lives in America.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
[…] [Bad Astronomer] […]
January 30th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
If it was funny I would laugh but its just sickening.
Like most Swedes I consider myself to be agnostic but stuff like this makes me wanna bump that up to atheism just to take a stand and prove a point…
And that only a quarter believes in evolution, that’s scary. Monotheism is just the worst idea ever.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I can tell you definitively that the answer is “yes.”
January 30th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
On a more serious note, YECs and evangelicals in general are viewed with considerable suspicion here in this part of Canada. They’re considered to be more than a little nutty.
That the US is overrun with them does frighten and repel people. It’s fair to say that many people think the US has more than its share of raving loons.
And most importantly, people here fear that the lunacy will rub off on us… something that does seem to be starting.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Well, Celtic_Evolution or “Dr” Plait, how do you feel about people who fast for Ramadan?
How about those who strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves and innocents in the belief they’re launching themselves into some afterlife?
Not self-loathing enough for you? Not avant-garde? Not anti-American?
But…we look irreducibly silly because some people here believe in an after-life?
Which is more arrogant, those who “know” there is no God, or those who “believe” there is a God without proof?
Interesting question, no?
January 30th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
re: Political Plait-ism
I’ll give you an answer to that:
> how do you feel about people who fast for Ramadan?
Idiots, but harmless idiots, insofar as that’s all they’re doing
> How about those who strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves and innocents in the belief they’re launching themselves into some afterlife
I think the answer to that goes without saying, but they’re fundamentally no different to the fasters. It’s just the fasters hurt noone (notwithstanding they may both be the same people)
> we look irreducibly silly because some people here believe in an after-life?
Yes.
> Which is more arrogant, those who “know” there is no God, or those who “believe” there is a God without proof?
Case B is the less supportable of the two positions. Repeated failure of a hypothesis (i.e. that god exists) is very strong, if not perfect, evidence for the non-existence of said God.
Anyway, having fed the troll, in answer to the question in the title, yes, creationists, among others, make the US look significantly insane. The US is not alone in this, but is unique in being one of most highly industrialised, technologically advanced nations on earth with a significant proportion of the populace professing beliefs from the bronze age.
Really.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
David,
Agnostics are atheists too.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
@ Political Plait-ism
I think people fasting for Ramadan is silly and I think suicide bombing for any purpose is insane, but I really don’t get how either of those is relevant to the question of how the rest of the world perceives the USA. Just because some have us have a poor impression of the US from our exposure to it in our own countries does not imply that we then have a good impression of stupidity elsewhere in the world.
As far as this goes: “Which is more arrogant, those who “know” there is no God, or those who “believe” there is a God without proof?”
I think you’ll find the majority of skeptics and atheists would say “I have not seen convincing evidence of the existance of God”, rather than “I know there is no God”. Look up Richard Dawkin’s belief scale for more.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
“But what can you expect from a society which uses the same rules for deciding who gets to win the NFL as for deciding their president?”
LOL. WTF? Over.
Yay…. more blanket, yet charmingly ignorant stereotypes please.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I’m from New Zealand.
Impression I get from popular news and the ubiquitous (and biased) inter tubes is that America is loud, brash, religious, arrogant and out of touch with reality.
Your national news providers don’t help your case either. I stopped reading CNN after the propaganda got too much.
That said, there are plenty of Americans I’ve met, who individually are some of the nicest people in the world.
I think you are getting there, and if I had to offer advice, it would be “lose the overabundance of far-right nutters” (Everybody always has SOME, but you seem to have cornered the market)
January 30th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
LOL at people who think the US is nuts because there are a lot of fundies here.
News flash enlightened ones: the nation was founded, in large part, by fundies running from persecution in such wonderfully enlightened nations like The Netherlands. You don’t like all our fundies? You shouldn’t have been such dicks about them back in the 15th century, oh “tolerant” ones. Sure, they’re a bit loopy, but their OUR loopy fundies.
And even though we’re paranoid about them terrorists, at least we’re not passing laws (yet) telling Muslim woman how to dress. Yeah, I’m talking to you France, and your “assimilation” policies that tells every new immigrant that they need to turn their backs on their faith and heritage and become cheese eating snobs. And The Netherlands too, you guys are headed down the same path.
The of course there’s the neo-nazi rally of the week that seems to go on over there.
Enough stereotypes for you? I got more. It’s easy.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Uh, Ian? The pilgrims? They left the Netherlands because it was too tolerant for them. The puritans couldn’t stand having neighbors who didn’t share their views, which is why they expelled Roger Sherman and Ann Hutchinson.
As for neo-Nazis, we’ve got quite a few of them in the States. In my own town they were flying a flag with a swastika protesting a day laborer hiring site.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
re: Jason
Sorry. Wrong.
Proving a negative is the LEAST tenable of all positions — and of course, the most arrogant.
Agnosticism is the only tenable scientific position.
You know NO more the reason why (or how) any of us are here than I do.
As for the sad, horrible case of the U.S. ignorance influencing the rest of the world…well, in my limited travels to France, Italy, S. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, and Singapore…I can tell you the woo-woo mysticism factor is far greater out there than here — in my experience. Sorry to disappoint. But, I generally smile at their beliefs, because they’re mostly harmless.
But…I’m a troll because I don’t lament my own culture. Well, I haven’t grown a beard yet and declared God unequivocally non-existant, but I understand. Carry on.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Belgian here. I can’t speak for the entire country, but my experience is that most people I know just refuse to believe there really is such a thing as creationists; that anyone could be so ignorant.
Even those who do realise creationism genuinely exists tend to greatly underestimate their numbers.
So most of the general opinion of the US around here seems to be formed by your warmongering politicians, which isn’t exactly better.
Strictly speaking you have to be agnostic about everything, including unicorns and leprechauns. In practice, though, atheists tend to understand that if there’s no evidence whatsoever, calling yourself agnostic to get open-mindedness points is just ridiculous.
Atheism doesn’t mean you have absolute proof there is no god by any stretch of the imagination, and no atheist would ever claim that. Quit twisting established vocabulary because you want a straw man to pound.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I am German living abroad.
I would not say that America comes off as more crazy than the rest of the world. Having lived in eight countries in Europe, Africa and Oceania, I would argue that there are plenty of errors in all of them. But with America playing the lead role globally, it’s flaws are more public. America can be a shining city upon a hill, but this exposed position also means that others can see your dirty laundry from afar.
Moreover, I find that news items about America generally contribute to setting you up as a convenient out-group. It is reassuring to others to see that America has flaws too, and that their nation can compare favorably with it in some respects.
As long as the media is diverse and somewhat balanced, individual faults are not portrayed as universally applicable to the entire US and the public realizes that there are many sides to America, both good and bad. Yes, we will laugh when an America celebrity wonders whether Europe is a country, but she is not equated with the rest of America. For extra credit, we may even admit that we would be hard-pressed to name the African country that has Dodoma as its capital.
Of course, there are enough cases where the media is neither diverse nor balanced, and where America is portrayed as a uniformly stupid and/or evil place. But the poor people who are being brainwashed this way should not serve as a reference group for determining the public status of the US.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:15 am
To most of us in Israel, Americans do sometimes seem a bit dimwitted. My brother works for a big international company, and he keeps complaining about American procedures being needlessly complicated and American colleagues being clueless.
On the streets here America as a whole is usually taken as something positive. Well, you know, we’re in the middle east. America has a very long way down before you start competing with our neighboring countries. Being in this particular neighborhood makes us (Israelis) far more tolerating. In comparison to the rockets that fell near our homes last year, American fundamentalism seems innocuous.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:24 am
Hi Phil
I hail from Alberta Canada and while there is a general distrust of the US (particularily the Bush administration) I would have to say that we can be seen as the US in miniature. You have reported on what our own prime minister did to the office of the science advisor. what I am worried about is if the battle against irrational policies based on religion is lost in the US then it will spread world wide.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:27 am
Hello from Spain.
From what I see, here and in all Europe people do think that you are all crazy and arrogat people more because of your international polithics rather than because of these absurd beliefs stuff. That thing is more like a corolary of it than a cause of the feeling, it’s like “oh, and they also are starting to negate the Evolution, too!” I mean, you have Bush as your president and you go around the world like the sheriffs of every place, you’d raised, supported and trained dictatorships in South America from decades during the last century, and started wars to get in control of the arabian oil; that makes a handycap bigger than anything creacionism can make us think.
But people thinking that are people who just make their opinions of what comes from our media. I deeply believe that there is a cosmic constant about human stupidity which make people believe whatever thing without questioning, and there it points in that direction. Though we also have quite a lot of people that believes in that hippy alien who was also a dove and a superhero and was born from a virgin raped by a god and married with a guy who didn’t touch her in ages (how ugly could the Virgin Mary be, for her son’s sake, to remain virgin so damn long after her marriage!?).
But well, we are getting a lot of presure from the church here in Spain right now (we are like a big religious screen for the whole South America, or that’s how the Pope sees us, and with us trying to make clear that the state is disconected from religion the religious statements are quite nervous. With we having gay marriages and not teaching religion to the kids and so on), and that keeps us too busy to take any care of what faiths spread overseas. Being one of the countries were catholicism is stronger and more powerful, with bishops speaking all the time about polithics and trying to twist it on their behalf, we are too busy ourselves with fanatics to take too much care of other countries religious issues.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:58 am
I’m an Aussie working as an English teacher in South Korea. I was surprised to see a forum topic posted on an ESL teaching website here by an American teacher who was worried because her school wanted her to talk about evolution in science class without “balancing” it with “other theories”. A lot of non-American teachers drilled some sense into her, of course.
Australia, while not so far gone as America still has it’s problems with creationists. I’m not so proud of the fact that Ken Ham, the man behind the infamous creation museum, is from my home town.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:35 am
I think the way the rest of the world experiences americans through the *media* gives an overall incredibly bad impression. America comes accross like a circus being run by the clowns.
Opposed to that, all the americans I know *personally* through the internet and such, or, less personally, via blogs such as this one usually fully replenish my faith in the people of your country. There’s an incredible amount of smart people in the US, I sincerely hope you lot will be able to overcome the idiots.
I, for one, haven’t completely given up on you yet
BABlog is a shining light, keep carrying that torch! hehehe
January 31st, 2008 at 1:39 am
Country: Netherlands
I agree with most of the posts here, so I won’t repeat all that.
My own country, once considered to be an example of progress, seems to try to follow, or even overtake, the US in it’s race to utter madness.
We’re not very religious, so we don’t see creationist nonsense being taught in schools yet, but we are quite ahead with the destruction of civil rights and privacy.
Some days I almost think the US legal and law enforcement systems start to look sane compared to ours. That’s when I really begin to worry.
So Phil, just because all eyes are on you guys doesn’t mean that the others aren’t going crazy too.
The US and it’s war on terror has set the world on a course to a totaliarism that already has Orwell spinning in his grave. And we’re not at the end of the road yet. I fear we’ve only just gotten started.
My country seems to want to prove that it can get rid of freedom, civil rights and privacy faster than any other in the world.
It’s not a race I’d like to see us win.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:46 am
I’m from UK, and teach astronomy and spaceflight, and the way I see the US is a place of extremes both good and bad. Technologically and innovatively, America is a leader and I have nothing but admiration: the space program (I am full of Apollo nostalgia) will always be a mile high plus sign.
However, the political characters or so way out of touch with reality on the streets (as UK politicians are also but not as much) as to be almost fictional. The crime scene is very scary (often I read of criminal acts and, before I actually get to it, almost know it has to have been committed in US)… and yes, it was only recently I realised the religious status of the US population in their numbers and extremes. It is frightening and I was astonishedthat for a country so advanced there should have so many people so ‘backward’… But then again the UK isn’t that much better; just less people and not so religiously wacko and volatile.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:58 am
This board is now accurately reflecting much of the media in our countries: The US media laughs out loud at the rest of the world as jealous of the US standard of living & freedom. The world’s press laugh out loud at paranoid, bomb-them-into-democracy America.
I want both to be wrong.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:59 am
I’m from Scotland but I lived in the States for five years and now I’m in Denmark. I think anti-americanism is to Europe what creationism is to America - the unthinking prejudice of the wilfully ignorant. The truth is that we have as many gullible idiots and certifiable crazies as you do, but on the whole they’re not as well organized - or rather our big corporations and special interest groups are not as good at organizing them into mass political movements capable of influencing our elections.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:59 am
Simon, UK.
Moon Hoaxers and Fundamentalists do tarnish the image of the US, but as some one else has commented, our own erstwhile PM said God told him to join in the invasion of Iraq, and our heir apparent cheerfully embraces homeopathy and assorted new age junk! On the whole though, I think America emerges as a more credulous nation, which is amazing because you are a secular nation, with a constitution that separates church and state!
I love the idea of America, the nobility of the concept. When I read the works of the founding fathers - intellectual giants compared to the political pygmies of the 21st century, I find them truly inspiring. But then I look at the state of Bush’s America and can’t worrying about eccentricities in the Earth’s orbit caused by Jefferson, Franklin et al spinning in their graves!
January 31st, 2008 at 2:00 am
I’m a Brit and I also have some very good American friends, all intelligent, well grounded and rounded people. But the view we get over here of the US people en masse is of gullible, uninformed, self serving mega-consumers, totally oblivious to what goes on in the rest of the world. Only interested in celebrity gossip (Britney, Paris, OJ et al) and think a new flavoured Dorito is COOL!
January 31st, 2008 at 2:10 am
Hmmm… well, it would be foolish to deny that America is home to many brilliant, intelligent, wonderful people - but I can’t deny that you also have what seems like more than your fair share of hicks, rednecks, delusionals and lunatics. Unfortunately, it’s those people that get all the press, mainly because they are the ones that seem to be running the country and dictating what direction you go. Your president, quite frankly, is one of the worst things to ever happen to you in your history - a fundamentalist Christian, anti-science, booze swilling moron, rarely capable of stringing together a coherent, meaningful sentence and who seems to have spent a good part of his presidential tenure on holiday and avoiding the facts. Tragically, he and others like him will continue to reap the majority vote from all of the gun toting advocates of the 2nd amendment, all of the bible spouting nutjobs with hate in their hearts, all of the jingoist, flag waving goons whose thoughts stretch no further than the next beer and BBQ.
You guys have got a long, hard climb ahead of you, to regain the respect and admiration the world in general had for America, when John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Neil Armstrong were symbols of America, instead of violent, misogynistic rappers, self absorbed and artificial Britney’s, and a simpleton rich boy draft dodger president who fought (and is still fighting) his war with the lives of others.
Good luck - it’s not going to be easy
January 31st, 2008 at 2:19 am
“Do your news outlets, magazines, radio, and other media portray us as fringe lunatics?”
No, I get that from your science blogs
I’m not worried about your creationism. I’m worried that you have a president who is ready, willing and able to invade another country with no better reason than that he holds a grudge against its leader.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:32 am
In Finland the media makes americans look silly. It just seems that the majority of americans don’t want to know the truth and that they don’t want to think for themselves. They just want to beleave what the authority says is the truth. It just seems that americans are extremely lazy intellectually.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:38 am
We Germans don’t think you’re as crazy as we’ll think should Huckabee become president. Other than that, we always thought Americans were strange. Laypersons talked about those ridiculous lawsuits, and of course a lot of people don’t exactly love George Bush; better informed people used to think differently (before Bush was re-elected ;-)).
With the rise of creationism, I think for most people the “general US-American” is now considered to be the Southern Baptist. Of course, most people will agree that this is a generalized statement and that there are lots of US-Americans not in that description. But there’s also your health-care system, your electorate system, social security, gun culture, and Mike Huckabee. And creationism has come to Germany, if as of yet only in small doses. And we have our cooks, too. And our problems. So I wouldn’t sweat it.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:43 am
Phil asks:
Do US creationists make the world think we’re crazy?
There are less and more educated people everywhere, same as here. But one thing I’ve noticed (in Europe anyway) is that, outside the US, people are, overall, less xenophobic. Add to this the fact that there are plenty of YECs in outside the US too, y’know (plenty in Scandinavia, Germany and Canada!). Some might generalize US as crazy, sure. And if you’ve traveled in a 3rd world country or a developed-but-unrealized economy (I recently found out that the term “Second World” is incorrect), you know that age-of-Earth problems are far from public thought. So, my answer to the question, Phil, is no. The gullible, yes, but doesn’t that change the point? Do Brits by and large get their impression of US from movies and TV sets? Of course. On the other hand, it certainly doesn’t help matters does it?
If you wanna see superstition control a populace, travel through any Latin country (and that’s the majority of the western hemisphere and therefore much of the “world”)!
There are also mis-leading media stories in other countries about the US, too. Once, when I was in France, there was a TV show that had footage of a chain gang in (I think it was) Alabama. It was hard to tell where when the footage was shot but the implication was that ALL of the US used this on ALL prisoners. This in a country with one of the world’s most despicable prison systems. So, it happens both ways with iffy media and stats (fwiw my French friends didn’t recognized it as garbage media).
Some stats say that only a small percentage of Americans think the Earth is brand spanking new and that there’s a man in the sky that tricks our brains when we look at distant stars or Carbon 14; yet I have a Natl Geo mag here (Nov 2004) that states 45% of Americans are YECs. It’s not a stat I trust (too lengthy to explain why).
The world thinks were ‘crazy’ because an obvious lie in order to cause international warfare caused the party responsible to be re-elected. What outside observer could get past that?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:48 am
Speaking from Australia on an idividual basis I find Americans (and I will continue to use the term becuase the English langauge does not provide any alternatives that don’t sound silly) much like any other people; the cover the whole spectrum from the genius to the idiot, the open and genial to the nasty and mean.
Collectively it is another story and despite shining examples such as Phil I think it’s best summed up in four words. Blind, insular and arrogant. No country in the world is perfect and for all it’s many laudabe qualities I don’t pretend that Australia is any different. The fact that John Howard lasted as PM as long as he did is proof of that.
The difference is that the US as a whole seems to be unwilling to look in the mirror and recognise that they too are flawed. Those who try to do so are marginalised, ridiculed and deemed ‘un-American.’ The all too common response to those who attempt to explose such flaws are variations on the theme of ‘Why do you hate America?’ In my eyes such activities are signs of a love for one’s country and a desire to improve it yet too many fail to see that. While I can’t make a full assesment of his character from so little material on the surface of things Tman would seem to exemplify the exact point I’m trying to make.
The rise of religious fundamentalism in the US on the surface of it is just another crazy thing but thinking a little deeper it seems too be just another sign on your increasing insularity. Another thing to set you apart (or an attempt to do so by certain groups) apart in an increasingly secular world.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:48 am
YECs in outside the US
should be
YECs outside the US
friends didn’t recognized it
should be
friends recognized it
January 31st, 2008 at 2:50 am
The common Finnish point of view, as far as USA is concerned, is that Americans are arrogant, stupid, superficial and overtly religious. Finland has its religious fanatics and antiscience kooks as well (what country hasn’t) but so far none of have been elected as a president. There are couple in our House of Representatives (and one was a culture minister in the previous government) but their POV is not popular.
That being said, there are also number of people that like the USA and, in fact, would like to turn Finland into a facsimile of USA (including reducing levels of public education, socialized medicine and various other things) and some of them are in the current government. Even those, however, do not subscribe to overtly religious rhetoric and the fact that the ministers in the Finnish government have visited the White House is that, well, they have to deal with whoever is currently in power.
Finnish point of view about average American is close to European one and, actually, very close to what seems to be American point of view about stereotypical Texans. Guntoting, arrogant, bible-thumping Fundamentalist Christian puritans with an obsession about money and living in the One Country Under God (and hypocritical to boot). Those with friends in the USA tend to think that they are members of the de facto persecuted secular minority, especially after the last presidential elections. And the fact that the US government would like to spread their type of democracy around in gunpoint, to say that some people are worried is an underestimation.
Part of it may be media bias. What media seems as newsworthy is the same world over - how many reports you have seen about Finnish life aside from wive-carrying championships, sauna tolerance contests, suicide statistics and supposed obsession about cellular phones? And those are examples of what programs like _The Sixty Minutes_ have done.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:13 am
Yes. If more than half of a country believes world is less than 10000 years old I will surely believe that. By the way I am from India.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:23 am
I’m from Holland and my friends and colleagues have started to call America Godmerica, I am guilty of this as well. There’s a good reason for this of course as you can’t seem to turn on CNN or watch any american tv show/movie without getting slapped in the face with references to god. Is there a law that says all movies above 1 million in budget have to mention god somewhere? Because it seems like it.
I liked the movie BA linked to but there’s a really worrying part in it: the preacher now “teaches Darwin in sunday school”. This is just so wrong it’s unbelievable. I realize it’s good that not all christians are fundies but really: teaching Darwin? Is Darwin our saviour now?
This belies an unspoken belief on the part of documentary makers and by extension a large part of the american public: evolution is a belief system on par with christianity.
I truly feel sorry for american scientists and rational thinkers, it seems like you live in a country that is continuing to slide into a sort of christian fundamentalist state. Who knows where this ends: a state ruled by a christian version of Sharia?
January 31st, 2008 at 3:35 am
Try coming from a country where the government first denies the link between HIV and AIDS, then says that garlic and the african potato are effective cures for it and that Anti retrovirals are poison. Where the apparent fututre president thinks taking a shower will protect him against being infected or as others have come to believe that raping a virgin is a cure. I think you have a way to go before you catch up with us but GOD willing president Huckabee will get you there.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:49 am
@ Dichars: Nice name. Did you get Mr Dawkins’ permission?
Anyway: It seems the US really is becoming the laughing stock of the free world. Most of my friends here in Germany regard the United States as a bunch of self-righteous hillbilly sociopaths with a world view based on ancient stories made up by people who had spent too much time in the desert. I’m actually having quite a hard time trying to convince them that, yes, there is a different America, yes, there are tens of millions of decent, secular people. In fact, I have never met the other kind, not even in my High School years in Washington state.
The problem is: Whatever people want to see in a country, they see it. And freaks such as Huckabee with his Magic Mormon Underwear make it pretty easy to point the finger at the US.
However, most of my friends have learned about the United States’ brighter side after I (more or less forcibly) made them read up on the Founding Fathers, the consitution, … and, last but not at all least, after I had them visit Phil’s web site. Among others.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:27 am
Another view from the UK
Popular stereotypes of Americans held by UK media
1. All Americans are fat
2. All Americans own guns (the bigger the better)
3. Eat burgers all the time or fringe health diets. No inbetween
4. All US black people are gangsta rappers
5. All US whites are rednecks
6. All US tv is trash eg Oprah, Montel, Jerry Springer
7. Don’t get ill unless you are rich
I can say that the reputation of America has dropped since Bush jr became president. But I look on the bright side. When he was last elected only 51% of Americans voted for him, which means 49% of Americans are intelligent decent people.
Bill Clintons worst crime was screwing a woman, whilst Bush jr has f****d entire nations.
On a personal note, the antics of Bush jr and the Christian right have overshadowed what is good about America.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:30 am
Amazing. I’m an American, and I just find the comments here amazing. As has been pointed out before, the US media doesn’t help matters, and in fact makes the whole thing worse. And people all over the world suck it in, because it’s what you want to believe. I guess the US media does know its audience, even worldwide.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:55 am
I’ve lived in the US, and am engaged to an american girl, so I know you’re not ALL completely nuts. But all the woo-woo makes me wonder where the country is headed - hopefully towards a huge backlash where science is once again in vogue :).
January 31st, 2008 at 4:59 am
Hi, Finland here. Just a list of some things that do not surprise me if they come out of America:
Inane do-not-microwave-your-cat lawsuits. Megalomania. Crooked televangelists, opportunistic politicians. Flag-waving hypocrites. A way too high ratio of yo-yos vs. sensible people. Pseudoscientific nuts. Prudes. People always rushing to conclusions and into action. Arrogance and greed. Lots of people ignorant of basic geography and history. Dimwits. Ignorant, hypocritical, smug gunslingers. A bully state. Never uncertain. Silly and often scary. Bad television shows and bad movies. Good television shows and good movies. Intelligent people and shiny gadgets. Innovation. Great scientists, great writers, great entertainers. Great promise. A baffling marriage of the best and the worst.
You just seem so… amplified?
January 31st, 2008 at 5:00 am
I’m from Australia and I do find by comparison America seems ‘more scary.’
But I think part of it is a lack of scientific understanding by a great number of the population. Including a lack of people not wanting to learn science ‘because it’s hard!’ and the government is behind it all! (they suppress information apparently!)
But by the same token it seems a lot of ‘Pseudoscience’ and strange beliefs start in America or have their origins there. This could also be because the US media is very wide spread and manages the saturate most other cultures. So most of our news about such ‘crazy happenings’ comes from America.
But I do believe it stems from a lack of scientific understanding. (though not the sole cause.)
It seems from my experience that most people who practice critical thinking have a more than sufficient scientific knowledge.
But it doesn’t mater what you say there is always someone out there starting something
crazy
Cheers.
Treat each other nice now
January 31st, 2008 at 5:13 am
Hi, from Spain. We don’t see Americans as morons. People who do don’t decide much really, same bunch with prejudices over a lot of things. Put USA in Europe and the territory that covers reaches Turkey. Not so long ago we had a civil war in the Balcans, very vicious. Imagine Arizona and Colorado killing each other and our comments to that. But we had that. Creationists will, sooner or later, move on. We have as many as you have, but with less money.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:15 am
Oh, buggrit…
Seems I confused Huckabee with Romney in my last post.
I thought I’d better correct myself before you think I’m an idiot who has no idea what he’s talking about (well, obviously I AM, but I dont’t want you to think that).
January 31st, 2008 at 5:20 am
I’m from Poland, and although I am a 9/11 conspiracy believer (on the rationalist side though - no missiles and holographic airplanes), I view USA as a land of gullible consumptionists, which is the view of most people around here too.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:28 am
I Spanish, living in Belgium.
I am afraid that is true, in general US citizens are seen as stupid and crazy, but most of all arrogant and patronizing. What makes people most resented is the US international politics, they are seen as a wish to control everything and be the police of the world, while the rest of the countries just want to be left alone. As someone said before, creationism and religious nuttycism are just the cherry on the pie. After all, do whatever you want in your own country, etc.
Yes, it is changing from laughing stock to be kind of scary, just because of the huge impact it has on the rest of countries, no matter if they like it or not. We should all vote for the US president o_O
I believe this view is a bit different in the south of Europe than in the north. There is more antipathy in the south. There are also more clueless, fat tourists from the US in silly outfits.
I do know all this is a stereotype, I do have friends in the US, I have visited the country, and I know there is another reality, which most people here doesn’t know. But I still cannot shake the impression that this other side of the US is not making an effort, as if they were so used to all the craziness going on they don’t even see it or worry about it anymore. If they don’t make enough noise, it is as if they didn’t exist.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:48 am
I’m an American, but don’t really consider myself one. I’m not proud of my country. I’m actually quite disheartened by it’s current progress towards fundamentalism and lack of freedom. Sometimes, I find it amazing that there are people that have such flawed thinking–people who don’t look for evidence and ignore it when it’s shoved in their face. Are their beliefs really so fragile that they cannot stand any objecting opinions? Or, instead, are they just so solid in their belief (most likely because it’s what God wants) that everything else must be ignored?
I don’t know the answer to those questions. I really wish I did.
That said, there are some good things about this country, things which give me a glimmer of hope: Barrack Obama, Kucinich, FOX news going down, NASA, science making a stand, liberal arts colleges…
Unfortunately for those good things, there are still powers which want to exploit us, misinform us in order to obtain our consent and obedience, and a general apathy of people who think that nothing can be done. That, to me, is the most dangerous thinking of all. At least the crazies act on their beliefs and try to change the system (even if it is for the worst). Those people may anger and frustrate me, but nearly as much as those people who are apathetic and don’t do a thing, even when they think/know the system is wrong.
/rant
January 31st, 2008 at 5:54 am
It’s very, very scary that, in the U.S.A., members of the lunatic fringe, who are clearly several chevrons short of a Stargate, have managed to rise to such high positions of power. :-O
If Genesis is infallibly correct about the creation myth, I can’t help wondering how the Bible-bashers reconcile the two versions of the creation of man:
Ch 1, v27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male *and female* created he *them.*
Together. At the same time.
BUT:
Ch 2, v7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, yadda, yadda,
Then later:
Ch 2, v22: And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her to the man. (sic.)
So now, they’re made separately. At different times.
Can’t both be right to my way of thinking, but then, I’ve got a brain and I’m not afraid to use it now and again.
BTW, is ‘Primeval,’ (a British sci-fi show in which anomalies open up between the present and millions of years ago, allowing prehistoric animals to wander through and create havoc) showing in the U.S.? I’d *love* to know what the creationist numbnuts make of that!!! {VBG}
P.S. The U.K. spellchecker doesn’t accept ‘creationist’ as a valid word and offers ‘cremationist’ instead.
–
January 31st, 2008 at 5:56 am
Hi Phil,
in my youth (some twenty years ago) saying America was synonymous to expectation. Positive expectation that were somewhere over the horizon.
I’m sorry that I have to say that America does not appear anymore as a worthwile ideal to pursue but rather as an example for a society gone wrong and it is likened to the demise of the Roman empire.
I have have spent some time in the states and have still some friends, so I know a bit of your side. Nonetheless, I have to keep in mind that it’s mostly politics and reckless stock markets that is the culprit. Although, this is turning sour when I look at the last seven years of American politics.
Me personally I still do see two great achievements of the US: for putting a man on the moon NASA will be my eternal hero and for creating Jazz you have my admiration.
EuropeanAlien
January 31st, 2008 at 6:00 am
Hello from France (I’m French, so bear with my imperfect English),
Obviously my vision of all this is biased: I don’t think I am representative of the French. After all, I once lived for two years in California, and again for two years in England. However, I will try to convey here the *general* perception of the Americans in the media and the public.
First off, the media, and the public here in France, don’t care much about the USA, or any other country for that matter. The public news on TV will rather talk about the dress of our president’s new girlfriend than anything of any importance abroad.
Talking about science, when the media reports any scientific “breakthrough”, it’s because some French research team has published some paper somewhere, which might be interesting, but without trying to put that research in perspective with what people are doing in that area worldwide. And I have seen on national news serious reports about a claimed water-burning engine, or “well sniffers” (people claiming to find water underground with some piece of wood or other artifacts, I don’t know the English word). The general level of scientific culture here is in my opinion rather low, and the media don’t help.
However, we don’t have anything even remotely similar to what’s happening with evolution here in France. There is simply no debate. People are as religious as anywhere else, yet they don’t see any conflict between evolution and their faith. So it’s not discussed in the media *at all*. I can recall only one instance of this topic being discussed, and it was on the radio early afternoon, and the topic was actually creationism **in the USA**.
Now the perception the French public has of the American people is not very good. It’s of an insane, fundamentalist christian people, dangerous enough to start religious wars for wrong reasons. The Bush years have made this perception worse. The American society is also seen as deeply unbalanced, when for example, those so-called christians can allegedly leave sick people to die if they can’t pay their medical bills.
I personally know better of course, because I used to live in this country, because I read this blog (and others), because I am fluent in English and curious enough to go around and make up my own mind, because I was raised by my parents to always be skeptical of everything, and perhaps to some extent, thanks to my science education.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:02 am
I have a close friend in the North of France who has told me that all of Europe titters like a schoolgirl every time the President of our United States ends his yearly State of the Union with God Bless America. What tripe!
January 31st, 2008 at 6:09 am
Americans are seen through the prism of your politicians. The fact that Bush is a gungho, shoot-first, uneducated, semi-literate, religious loony with his finger poised above “the button” just means that all the news outlets have been given something to focus on; see, Bush is “normal” in the US, just look at the creationist loonies and the evangelicals.
Until the US actually has a visible face that’s sane and educated and literate and scientifically knowledgeable all people will see of the US are the loonies.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:15 am
I don’t have time to read all the comments just now, so apologies if this has been said before . . .
The Americans that I have met (either face-to-face or in teleconference) are intelligent, articulate, rational people.
American culture is, I believe, widely regarded as dumb, stupid, ignorant etc. This is mainly due to the propensity of Hollywood and the major TV networks pretty much always catering to the lowest common denominator. The Discovery Channel, for instance, has so much potential to be genuinely interesting, but it seems to portray everything in the most sensationalistic and shallow way.
Sadly, the BBC’s Horizon series is going the same way - light on substance, heavy on sensationalistic rhetoric.
I don’t feel able to comment on American foreign policy, because the leaders that get elected here in the UK won’t stand up to a US president and tell him he’s wrong. Oh, hang on a sec. We don’t get to elect our prime minister or our sovereign.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:22 am
Another Brit (a Scot, specifically) here… I’d say that the creationism is certainly not helping, but I’m not sure how widely appreciated the problem is over here. The people who really make us think you’re all crazy are your politicians, military leaders, and media personalities. Oh, and all the crazy drug-war, abstinence-only sex-ed, no-funding-to-family-planning-orgs-that-even-mention-abortion stuff. And Guantanamo Bay. And the huge cars. And the fact that you have drive-in churches. All those crazy gun nuts really aren’t helping any either…
So, creationism? It’s on the list, but it’s a long list. Mainly, it’s your crazy politicians.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:34 am
>>JD you are changing the subject, which was USA. But of course, my country, as all countries, is far from perfect. Feeling better now? Per capita income, hmm… do you know our history? If that is how you judge societies, then you should just love Bahrain, The Emirates and some other interesting places. And i bet you would just fall in love with me, coz im doing quite all right
Enlighten me of what I am supposed to be jealous?
As far as education goes - I was talking from expirience, not because i want to say something nasty. In high school here i had to take university courses because otherwise i’d be just wasting my time, even though back in europe i was an average student i found US education system way too easy. But there are some good things about it - it encourages anybody who wants to do anything, and there is a possibility to fine tune ones education by choosing courses one needs and likes, on the level one wants. That’s great. In the states the motivation is a positive impulse, back here the main motivation in high schools is quite the opposite - negative impulse, bad marks. Thats precisely why i found studying in the States to be a great expirience. But while there I saw how many folks go through the entire education system doing nothing and passing anyway. And the segregation…
I have plenty of friend in the states, as everywhere there are great and not so great people. The post, if you did not notice, was an answer to a question and a generalization, please do not take it to your heart too much.
You cannot change the reality of some stereotypes, which in many cases are very true. In Europe every country has some stereotypes about it’s neighbors, just listen to Jeremy Clarkson’s take on some countries. You will have a laugh. And the stereotype fo stupid Americans is being actively enforced around the world by the leadership of this country, by many tourists, by very commercially oriented media reporting on Paris Hilton and some silly dr. Phil etc etc. Then there is the basic general education…
kind regards
January 31st, 2008 at 6:34 am
Hailing from Spain…
THX to the internet, I am quite more familiar to American than the average Spaniard. From what I can tell from people around me, the USA gather quite schyzophrneic views.
- some are boot-lickers of the USA;
- some regard it as buffoon land, a source of endles laughing stock
- some are quite frightened at Ameirca’s apaprent inabiility to not behave in scarely insane ways
Every guy i know is willing to agree that nuts are not the average Ameircan, that there are lots of sane people in the USa. But then, the USA provides nuts in every size and kind, and nobody appears to be worry about it.
That’s what I found really puzzling. I would be ashamed and would ask to shut the heck up -litherally- to anyone who dared to sepak publicly, as a fellow countryman, of issues like YEC, anti-evolution or the such. I always feel like, “when will someone reach out to gaggle this moron before he definitively embarrasses everyone around and spoils America’s reputation?”
America’s nuts are proudly unaware of eing nuts. They don’t feel embarrassed to speak out loudly when surrounded by normal people. Here, nuts talk to nuts, and are greeted with scorn whenever they lave their little nutty circles.
This leads to think, either American don’t care what foreigners will mind of them, or nuts are not part of little cirlces but are a huge minority, there are so many nuts that they don’t feel embarrassed to expose their nuttyness as there are crowds of them.
Oh, and there are all sorts of nuts. From “libertarians” to really, really insane people like white supremacists, but also are the ranks of creationists, bible bangers and conspiranoids…
It feels like, maybe sane people are the largest single minority in the USA, but as a whole they are outnumbered by the endless rows of insane minorities. Certainly, it’s been a long time since the last time it seemed as if sane people in the USA could do their will and triumph over insanity. Re-electing Bush did an awful lot of damage in that matter…
You like it or not, there are so many nuts in your country that they are replacing the average Joe or the Greatest American in the perception of people abroad. Sometimes you no longer are the country that brought humankind to the Moon, but a coutnry where if a guy is not a bible banger, will be a creationist, or a libertarian, or a supremacist, or a conspiranoid, or whatever else insanity… and they all together outnumber good plain common sense people.
Sometimes it’s fun, but more often it’s plain scary…
January 31st, 2008 at 6:36 am
Of course I was not referring to our exalted host the Bad Astronomer in the sentence above, I meant THE OTHER “dr” Phil.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:40 am
Ugh, so many sweeping generalizations in this post and the comments. It makes me cringe. For instance, what, precisely, do you mean by “rest of the world”? Because I’d bet my bottom dollar that well over than half the people on this planet (most of whom are very poor and don’t have access to good education) don’t care one way or another about Creationism or Evolution. This is the kind of sweeping, inexact statement that normally would drive a scientist crazy.
That said, I’ve never heard of drive-in churches. But we have drive-through liquor stores, so why not?
Also, the commenter who said French people see all Americans as “insane, fundamentalist christian people” is probably still sore about the whole “cheese-eating surrender monkey” incident. (joking!!!)
January 31st, 2008 at 6:43 am
Hi, I´m from Brazil.
I always think that these creationist/psychics/moon hoax people was just a small group of crazy people that get to much attention from media and that 99.9% of the americans were not so crazy.
But then you have Bush. OK. Bad choice. You have a second chance and…wtf…Bush again? Iraq again? ** Creationism is growing, scientology is here, Texas and other states are doomed, at GOP Debate some candidates raise their hands when asked if the don´t believe in evolution, etc…!!
I´m now rethinking that 99.9%. I know that there are very smart people ins US…but maybe the lunatics are not such a small group as i used to think.
“Do your news outlets, magazines, radio, and other media portray us as fringe lunatics?”
No. The local media dont portray you as lunatics YET. Here in Brazil if you want to know about this stuff you need to find by yourself on Internet or watch some US tv channel on cable (by the way…fox news looks like very crazy too).
—-
** we have a joke about this here. it´s a modification of a famous brazilian proverb. please don´t get mad. it´s just a joke
original:
“errar é humano. persistir no erro é burrice.”
to err is human. to persist the error is stupidity.
new version (its a good rhyme in portuguese):
“errar é humano. persistir no erro é americano”.
to err is human. persist the error is american.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:44 am
Just one more thing.
To be honest, there is one prevailing feeling in many places around the world, a kind of sadness, pity, irritation even at what has been lately going on with the US and how it is affecting the situation around the world. A big strong country with great potential is basically ruining itself and changing the world economy for the worse, along with the environment and the once desirable dollar. China and Russia are getting stronger, while the US is ruining itself and seems to be on a leash of Israel. A country which for many years really used to be an example of freedom, free markets and democracy today makes those words seem to be empty political slogans when spoken by American leaders. One can only wander if there will be a real change with the change in presidency and leadership. Would, for example, the Obama guy really do what he is promising…
January 31st, 2008 at 6:57 am
Brazilian reader here.
I’d like to add that while American culture is quite prevalent around the world, every other place has it’s share of silliness. Someone above mentioned South Korea’s fear of fan death. Here in Brazil we are being introduced to hoaxes like Kevin Trudeau and dietary fads; and people by the score are falling for those. We also have a rather large Evangelical Right budding in our Congress, and they have become quite vocal about Gay Rights and stem-cell research. Recently, our Enviroment Minister (also an Evangelical church-goer) gave a statement sympathethic to Intelligent Desing in an Adventist Symposium that she was invited to. A Minister of State!
In a sense, maybe the decline in America’s laicity is reflected in other places like Brazil. I mean, we have always had Televangelists and assorted Prosperity Theologians, but they gained much strenght in recent years - especially since Edir Macedo, head of the infamous Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus in Portuguese) managed to get a hold of a TV channel. There are now dozens of Televangelists spouting their nonsense in our airways.
I have the feeling that if the USA manages to wake up from her brush with Obscurantism, we in Latin America might follow suit. Then again, I might be wrong.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:26 am
I’m a Norwegian taking the liberty to speak for all my countrymen.
Many of us view the USA with a mix of ridicule and fear. Ridicule because you… well, you know. ID and pres. Bush and all that. And the fact that anal sex is prohibited in Texas. (Norwegians aren’t particulary anal, and some of us are higly religious, but dictating the private sexual acts of people has never occured to us.)
And a little bit of fear because we have oil. Yes, we are tightly allied with USA, but who knows how long that will last, after you run dry.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:33 am
Yeah, and when I was a kid, I dreamt about going to America and see route 66 and all that.
Now the thought of going there simply scares me. I would NOT apply for a job that required me to travel to USA.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:42 am
You are all a bunch of crybabies. This would be one of the most hilairous and fun museums ever! Those raptors hanging out with people was awesome.
And seriously, if you think Creationism or American Imperialism is a real threat to the future of man then you clearly need more education.
And you are kdding yourself if you think you aren’t jsut as fallible as the next person. Enjoy the knowledge you have and be happy about it rather than brood on some future you can’t even predict.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:53 am
“And seriously, if you think Creationism or American Imperialism is a real threat to the future of man then you clearly need more education.”
Not a threat, no. But being the Big Guy also means you set the trends around you.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:55 am
Do Us (”us” in small print -oh no Phil! NOooooo!
) Creationists make tehWorld think we’re (USA-ites) crazy?
Well d’uh! YES of flippin’ course!!!
Then again a whole lot makes Americans look crazy in the eyes of the
world and esp. through the eyes of this Aussie :
- starting with mad George II your pitiful excuse for a hereditary President .. and the nightmare of someone almost equally stupid like Huckabee potentially replacing him. (No-one could actually be stupider than “Dubya”. Surely!)
- your invasion and occupation of Iraq based on the lies that it had WMD’s & some (non-existent we now know) link to the Al Quaida attacks of 2001 Sept. 11th, and your neo-conservative neo-imperialists,
- The Religious Wrong - extremist fundamentalist Christians with their Xtreme stupidity and wilful ignorance and intolerance - & all your televangelists.
- The horrendous political imbalance in the United States where the perfectly respectable words and philosphies : “Liberal”, “Socialist”, “Left-wing”, have become demonised forms of abuse and only the extreme rightand ultra-loppy-lunatic ext far right have any political power.
- the fact that American (US really) culture is an oxymoron, Jerry Springer, Paris Hilton, the whole Janet Jackson part mammary glabd for part second shoulda-been laugh-of-the-day incident turned into a frenzy , mouthfoaming , chest thumping excerise inhysteria by your XN lynch mobs. OJ Simpson, Michaekl Jackson, .. urgh stop me before I vomit!
That’s just for starters.
There areexceptions -like this blog - & their are some fantastcially good things about Amercia too .. but there is a colossal amount of anti-Amercian sentiment intehworld rightnow for very god reasons.
George Bush Jr and his Neo-Conservative mob of fools have done your nation immense damage that will take many many decades of hard work and diplomacy to recover form if ever.
That’s the bad news.
Good news - we do know you’re NOT all like that, America has it good aspects and its bad ones and much of the world (incl. me) is really looking forward to seeing your good side emerging once more …
Lets hope …
1) America gets a real political change & a very dramatic one for the better.
2) The influence and power - and airplay - of the nutters and whackjobs of the Relig. Wrong, Christain Taleban, Israeli apologists and Neo-con neo-fascists is squleched utterlyand forever soon-est.
3) The USA calls off its unwinnable by definition “war on terror”, admits and apologies for its errors in invading Iraq and threatening Iran and its past foreign policies generally and finally, finally, learns the lessons of the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam and Iraq and vows to NEVER again invade or menace other nations but respect them and their rights instead.
I’m hoping Obama wins your next election.
(&, yes sadly your elections very much matters to Australians and in fact the entire globe.)
Pretty much the whole world is hoping Bush’es mob lose so badly they never show their ugly faces - or uglier policies - ever again …
January 31st, 2008 at 7:57 am
Eric TF Bat writes:
[[As for Creationists et al: we know they’re the crackpots, but you people need to stomp a lot harder on them… People who are found guilty of voting Republican should be required to show cause why their voter registration should not be cancelled.]]
I think this explains a lot about why you hear about fringe behavior in the US and less so in Europe — the Europeans stamp much harder on any dissent than America does. In the US we have traditions of freedom which Europeans, for the most part, just don’t seem to understand. In general we just allow much more social deviance than you could get away with in conformist, xenophobic Europe. (Note, e.g., that muslim girls can wear head scarfs in class in the US but not in France.)
Don’t tell me about the Bush administration attack on the constitution; I’m well aware of it. But people like Eric have much more in common with the Bush administration than they realize.
By the way, I heard on NPR this morning that the Christian Right amounts to about 13 to 18% of voters. Are these the people you’re worried are about to take over America?
January 31st, 2008 at 8:05 am
John, on the subject of needing more education, you might like to do a little research on how and why Hitler came to power in the the early ’30s, and then consider the fact that history has a nasty habit of repeating itself…
–
January 31st, 2008 at 8:08 am
Gary F writes:
[[I’m glad they showed religious Americans that don’t take Genesis literally, but I really don’t understand how anyone can read the book of Genesis, claim it was inspired by the creator of the universe, and still say that evolution doesn’t conflict with it. Either such people have zero understanding of evolution as an unguided, algorithmic process, or they have never read Genesis. The two ideas really are at odds. No matter how much evidence supports evolution, there is no way I know of to twist that evidence into something that supports the Genesis myth.]]
That’s because you’re reading it essentially the same way an extreme fundamentalist does — as either literally true in every detail or not true at all. I’m a born-again Christian, and I have no problem believing both in the Genesis creation narrative and in evolution. The creation narrative is saying that God created everything, not the sun, moon, earth, plants, animals, etc. — all of which were worshipped as gods by people at the time. That’s the point of Genesis — give credit where credit is due. We’re a little more sophisticated now; we don’t worship the sun or a tree. Our idols are different: sex, money, power, our nation or ethnic group, and that perennial favorite, ourselves. But they’re still idols, and Genesis is as relevant today as it was 3,000 years ago. Truth doesn’t go out of date.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:09 am
I’m from South Africa… a very religious country, but traditionally in a church with educated theologians. As these are getting more educated (embracing a more panentheistic view, becoming more accepting of homosexuality, not reading the Bible literally), people are fleeing to new upstart churches, revival churches… in particular, lots of stuff exported from USA. Well, I suppose they’d import their fundamentalism from anywhere they can. (Including Australia…)
So we also have some creationism fights in the country, especially since evolution hasn’t been taught in schools until very recently. At least we have enough other problems to worry about, and enough diversity overall. The fundamentalists haven’t gotten that much influence.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:11 am
ur country reminds of idiocracy
January 31st, 2008 at 8:17 am
And now we’re getting criticized by a guy from Serbia? Send in the clowns. At least the USA never set up “rape camps.”
January 31st, 2008 at 8:23 am
I am a Canadian and I live in Alberta. I am very concerned with the amount of Creationists that come out of the states. I see it almost first hand here too, Alberta is likely the most Creationist province. Last year a creationist museum was built in southern Alberta. I think that this is a huge cause for concern. The place is aimed at children and if this is the future we are raising than we are in big trouble. I cannot see a bright future for science if a major power like the US is deluding itself and reverting to the dark ages. The only way I can calm myself down after hearing or reading some Creationist BS is to realize that there are some people left who have some sense. Thanx for being someone I can turn to for real science Phil!
January 31st, 2008 at 8:24 am
And Mexico, yet. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, the Mexican people love their country so much that 12 million of them are living here and about a million a year risk imprisonment or even death to get into the US. I can see why they love Mexico so much, too — who wouldn’t love a country where the murder rate is higher than in the US, drug gangs control government officials, and la mordida takes a good fraction of the GDP for anyone who needs any service at all performed?
You couldn’t drag me to Mexico. I never visit countries where the police routinely torture suspects. I avoid Turkey for the same reason.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:25 am
Alex I totally agree that whenever I think of the US I think of Idiocracy and how it seems to be almost right on the mark.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:29 am
This is not necessarily my opinion but what I hear from “normal” people here in Germany. Often American is used a a bad example, if a politician suggests a policy then a critic of it might be…don’t touch a medical system, we don’t want to end up like America.
- fat & lazy: no comment
- dumb: An American High School degree requires less knowledge than a German “mittlere Reife”, which you get at 16. What % of Americans can speak a foreign language? WHat do you know the world and its history outside America?
Evidence: anecdotal or check out youtube
- uncaring: your medical system is only good for rich people, your universities are good but are unaffordable for normal people.
- litigious: no comment
- wasteful: SUVs / cheep crap petrol / Why the hell do you have medical insurance companies employing MDs not to treat people to to find excuses not to treat people? Here once an insurance companies has accepted you that’s it.
And don’t even get me started on religion….
long story short: your crazies, make our crazies look good
PS: most people from America that I’ve meet have been smart, decent, nice and not at all god fearing.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:36 am
Oh, and I love all the comments about America mixing religion into its politics… from people in countries with established state churches. That would include the UK, Germany, Sweden and Denmark. Pot, kettle, black.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:37 am
Hmm…nothing like seeing an inflammatory topic with absolutely no scientific agenda posted on a supposedly scientific site. I’d almost say that Phil and this site have lost their way and have begun bowing down to the sensational, the non-scientific to generate interest. And we like a bunch of sheep fall right into it without realizing we’ve crossed the line from science into name calling and people bashing. Violating the very essence of why this country was formed to begin with. (Persecution ring any bells with anyone?!!)
January 31st, 2008 at 8:40 am
JEEZ, why do all my posts get flagged by the spam filter?!
January 31st, 2008 at 8:43 am
@barton: Now you did it. By insulting that guy or gal from serbia, you just crossed the line dividing stupid from outright evil.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:44 am
David writes:
[[Monotheism is just the worst idea ever.]]
Monarchism? Slavery? War? Pollution? Global warming denial? Racism? Sexism? Homophobia? Any of those ring a bell?
I’m just dumbfounded by the people who think religion is the worse problem in the world. I didn’t think that even when I was an atheist — most of my life. It takes a kind of blinkered monomania.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:47 am
I’m a Brit living in Japan, and I can tell you that Asian economic powerhouses like Japan and China are licking their lips at the chance to overtake the USA as number one. If the antiscience trend continues, China will become the preeminent economic nation, and democracy will end up on the back foot.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:47 am
Jason writes:
[[> How about those who strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves and innocents in the belief they’re launching themselves into some afterlife
I think the answer to that goes without saying, but they’re fundamentally no different to the fasters. ]]
People who fast for Ramadan are all suicide bombers? Gee, Jason, what an enlightened view you have. I can see your atheism has really led you to abandon logical fallacies.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:48 am
@Barton: I’m a Brit, and I despise established religions and monarchies.
What exactly is your point? That because of my accident of birth I must endorse certain notions of government?!
January 31st, 2008 at 8:53 am
Well you _were_ tempting fate (or whatever) asking me that question …
As I said there’s a lot I *do* like about the United States America …
.. & a lot I don’t!
& either way I won’t be shy ’bout saying what I reckon …
Or using emotiicons !
—–
All In My Humble Opinion Naturally ..everythings in someboy’s opinion ain’t it?
Definitley too tired tonight ..
January 31st, 2008 at 8:56 am
Argh ..! Some boys? Or in some girls opinion too ..
Or just indecipherable with typos ..I meant somebody’s.
Computers - what they really need is a “Just Blinkin’ WORK’ button!
January 31st, 2008 at 8:58 am
Manni,
Sounds like I scored a direct hit, huh?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:05 am
@Barton Paul Levenson:
Germany doesn’t have a state church. But the two big churches (catholic and German protestant) have got special privileges, which mostly date back to our fascist history. The only major law keep from the nazi time where the privileges given to churches so that the catholic Zentrum pary would vote Hitler into office. These privileges, which lots of us consider to be against our own constitution, include:
- in state schools students are split in 3 classes for religion (cath/prot/other) for about 90 min every week
- the state automatically collects “church tax” from its members (ca 64% of the population)
- about half of all pre schools are run by churches but paid for by the state
- some hospitals / hospices / self help groups / … dito
- other crap like for some university chairs the churches can veto who works there
all in all out state wastes about 20.000 million Euros on church stuff.
But as I said: your crazies, make our crazies look good
Unlike America:
- every student will by age 16 know how evolution works, no one questions it.
- sex education is decent and provided to every student at ages 11 and again at 15
- no home schooling, 99% of all schools are public non religious schools
- all priests are university trained (unfortunately the departments are paid for by the government by run by the churches)
- only hard core Catholics (cath 31% / hard core ones < 10%) would even consider questioning woman’s rights
- I would say less than 20% even believe in hell
- engineers are scientists are the most respected professions
So: yes we’re not perfect, but still a whole lot better then some.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:07 am
And, of course, you had your share of “americans” right here in this very post Phil:
The other wackos like Jack Hagerty who think the world SHOULD be grateful to “americans” for fighting their neighbours, liberating them from dictatorship and giving us quality entertaining.
Are they really so mental to think your government does that (the invading stuff) purely because they pursuit a Grand Scheme? Purely on Good Will? On Behalf of the Human Race? And not because they like power and dominating every other country?
No wonder you have scientology over there.
Note: depending on the convention, america is one or two continents.
And to Barton Paul Levenson, I live in the capital (of Mexico) and can tell you that you’ll be hard pressed to find drugs, it’s really not that easy here. While in USA you can find them in every California teenage party. Really, last I checked, USA is the country where most drugs are consumed, and where most drug crimes are commited. I have no defense to our “la mordida” and stupid government, but cops don’t go torturing people either.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:15 am
This is all very entertaining. I’m not too upset at non-Americans thinking we’re weird. I’ve been listening to it all my life and have learned to ignore it.
What *is* a little bit disturbing, though, is that so much of the readership of a scientific blog run by a skeptic is so shows so little skepticism when it comes to anti-US stereotypes. So much of what I see typed here is observably, objectively false, yet is accepted uncritically by the mob. I guess the smart set takes things “on faith”, as well.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:17 am
I remember someone telling me about a sticker he’d seen on a sticker inside a laser printer, that said:
Achtung: heiss
Attention: chaud
Attenzione: caldo
Warning: hot. Do not touch.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:28 am
I’m an Australian, but my parents are both American now living in Sydney (they describe themselves jokingly as refugees). I’ve lived in America for w little while, and am in regular contact with friends and family. As such, no I don’t think that _all_ American’s are insane, religious bigots. I know that there are many rational, educated people in the US. However, I _do_ think that _many_ Americans are insane religious bigots.
Most Aussies love to laugh at America. The going theory is that yanks are, in general, poorly educated, barely literate, war loving, por-wrestling watching, tractor-pull attending, SUV driving hillbillys who think Canada is a state and can’t locate their own country on a map. The attitude of Americans about issues such as global warming and Iraq generally stirs resentment.
Much as I hate myself for it, I see some truth in the sterotype.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:28 am
Athens)
I kinda feel like, you know when your speaking to a young person (14-17 years old) and you can see they’re intelligent, observant, well spoken and very “on to it”. But you begin to see them go down the wrong path (arrogance, cheating, lying etc) thats how I feel about america, you’re not a lost cause by any means, and no country is perfect. I just hope you dont lose your potency before there’s a powershift to say China or somewhere else. Not that I have a problem with chinese per. se. Just they are still ruled by a dictatorship.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:31 am
First of all, America is a continent…lol
I don t think people outside of the United States believe in the heroical side of the country, I mean, you remember the international reaction to the war of Irak and all…Nobody considered for a second that there was anything noble about that war, not for a second (outside the United States I mean)
As a country, you ve gone thru some crazy stuff lately…
As for the religious things…
I agree with the other comments, people around the world first thought it was funny, now, we perceive it as scary.
But…you know, it s all about the individual, I respect and admire many many “gringos” lol so very much, your country has certainly achieved a lot of incredible things.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:39 am
I’m an atheist in Canada, and I’m pretty aware that there’s some sensible folk in the US. That said, I really wish there would be more vocal, sensible religious folk in the US that would take their loony(er) brethren to task.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:55 am
Hi, I’m reading BAB for about a month and I must admit that I never tried to read comments because of it’s number, but in this case I just couldn’t resist.
I’m from Poland and regardless I hardly heard about american creationists being such a problem, I think one can assume Americans are stupid. And here’s my theory why.
First of all, it’s what is shown in news - politics, weather and sensations. Leaving weather and criminals, there are politics and other weird people. Drawing conclusions from that is rather easy. Almost every American I see on TV (not including Discovery channels) is stupid or at most “neutral”.
But it’s true for other countries too. One radio programme always come to my mind. A reporter laughing at Frenchmen in Paris by asking them where is the Bastille, going where he was told and once again asking the way. I think USA is an unique country, even on this strange planet, and it’s because of immigrants - it’s somekind how it was populated at first (not counting natives) and for centuries the variety of cultures grew bigger. It was always thought to be the most free country, and it was. I came to conclusion that maybe in USA some kind of feeling occured that one can say everything. I can imagine that someone hearing of so many religions and opinions on every topic would think he can say he’s a god or an alien and he won’t be much more distinguable than any other.
“A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something.” The bigger the country is, the greater chances of someone saying rubbish and someone believeing it. In my opinion that plus the ability to say everything without much fear of being laughed down makes (although I may be wrong, it’s just my theory) what we see. Slightly more people believeing in rubbish than in other countries.
Unfortunately for you, “USAnians” as someone write, stereotypes are hard to erase. Just look at opinions about Poles. And like of USA, I bet you more often hear about something negative, in this case hard drinkers, thiefs or cheap workers, than anything else.
And speaking of creationists we have our own problems with devouts, and comedians are making laugh of this for a few years already. It’s not about what they believe, but about who they listen and how much they defend hypocrites. But every country has theoretically the most representative group of people - government. Members of our parliament often aren’t educated and/or are involved in scandals, but all of them together can hardly compete with Bush in destroying his country’s good name.
One more thing. I just saw a list of popular stereotypes of Americans in UK. It’s quite the same in Poland - we even joke that every kid in USA has a gun.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:56 am
For the most part, I was born and raised here in the US. However, traveling parents an mobile interests allowed me the benefit of growing up in several other countries. I’ve spent a great deal of time in Mexico, Brazil, the Bahamas, Spain, France, the UK, Norway, Italy, Israel, and Egypt.
While I love my home here in Texas, I am also very grateful for the humbling lesson in perspective bestowed upon me by living abroad. It’s a perspective that a great deal of my fellow American’s are seriously lacking, and quite frankly it’s difficult to muster anything more than pity for them.
What most people in other countries don’t realized is that virtually every American is indoctrinated with a massive sense of entitlement from birth. This over-inflated idea that everyone owes us something has more or less become a cultural lynchpin at this point. The prevailing ideals here generally revolve around an insatiable desire to display any perceived superiority, and that everyone around you is out to get what you have. This idea is reinforced in just about everything we encourage our children to do, and a great deal of them simply never grow out of it.
It’s gotten to a point in which ignorance in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence is inexplicably treated as a virtue, and it is truly depressing. Creationism, by and large, is a characteristic unique to American religious beliefs. One honestly couldn’t even refer to mainstream American religious practices as “theology.” It’s much closer to the organized reverence of Bronze age mythology and cultural superstitions. There is an unfortunately large number of Christians out there who are unable to glean any wisdom from biblical teachings unless they idolize the book itself. Most of these people worship the Christian bible, not the Christian god. While these people are still a fringe element, their influence is far-reaching.
We live in a land where ideological lost causes tend to control the discussion, and rational thought gets lost in the noise. There are many aspects of this country that I am immensely proud of. These unfortunate people, however, make me ashamed. I have long considered this country to be a relatively young player in the western world. We don’t yet have the collective memory of the tragic mistakes and horrible consequences of irrational thinking and religious extremism.
In other words, this country still has a lot of growing pains to experience. Expect this idiocy to continue for at least a few more centuries.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:07 am
Yes, I think less of Americans due to creationism.
But.. I am from the UK and we are big on homeopathy as a country here. This makes me ashamed to be British so I know how it feels.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:07 am
From Baltimore, Maryland, USA:
I must admit that I was appalled by that horrendous video. While I consider myself religious (non-Christian), I don’t know anyone personally who does NOT accept the reality of evolution. In my congregation, the story of creation in Genesis is considered to be a beautiful attempt to explain the origins of the world, by people who didn’t have the level of scientific knowledge or technology that we have.
One thing we need to understand: the United States is different from most nations. There may be more diversity of culture, nationality, and background here than in any other nation with the possible exception of Israel. I find it distressing but understandable, therefore, that the “culture wars” are so intense.
However, I think the pendulum may finally be swinging the other way. I think the average person is disgusted by Dubya’s so-called “administration,” and this has awakened a lot of people to the dangers of a fundamentalist theocracy.
I hope the rest of the world will be patient for another year. A year from now, we’ll have a new president who will begin to let in the fresh air of scientific literacy and rational thinking.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:09 am
The problem with Phil’s initial query is that it seems to be predicated on the notion that the “rest of the world” that he solicits opinions from has a skeptical, secular humanist worldview, one that would see our Creationists as being at odds with reality and would extrapolate this vocal minority as being representative of America. the fact is that most cultures have beliefs that others find bizarre, irrational, even frightening.
In Liberia, men go into battle naked because they think this will protect them from bullets. In Southeastern Africa, there is a widespread belief that if you have HIV/AIDS and have sex with a virgin, this will cure you (not to mention South African President Mbeki’s criminally stupid views on HIV/AIDS). In China/East Asia TCM (that’s Traditional Chinese Medicine) is widespread. How many readers of this site really think that you can control health by manipulating “chi”?
I could easily go on with various creation myths (Islamic creationism is a growing force) or superstitions or conspiracy theories that infect whole populations (during the 2005 Marburg outbreak in Angola, Western medical teams from MSF and WHO ran into resistance from locals who thought the doctors were “demons” who were “confiscating the sick” or even worse, “killers” who had “come to exterminate us”…according to MSF’s AAR).
As an atheist, I find the strength of Creationism in my country to be disturbing. However, the notion that many around the world are in the grips of their own prejudices, irrational beliefs, superstitions and the like (something that seems to be the obvious subtext of Phil’s questions) is laughable.
A better question is this: why do so many people believe in irrational things, whether religious (e.g., Creationism), cultural (e.g., the odd and dangerous notions about HIV/AIDS among many groups), political (e.g., the Zionist conspiracy to rule the world) and so forth? To single out America and the Creationist wing of American Christians turns an interesting topic for examination into another excuse to bash some Americans.
Yes, Creationist beliefs (Christian, Muslim, animist, etc.) are irrational. So are notions of a global Caliphate, reincarnation, drinking powdered rhino horn to get an erection or any of the other myriad beliefs of humanity. Why should the “rest of the world” when they hold these notions to be true, have anything to say that is useful about the irrational people in America?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:14 am
It has become a common view in German that the US has become quiet the backward country over the past decades. The education system is bad, the economy isn’t going well, playing world-police (+fabricating reasons to start a war), global warming denying (hey, it could hurt the economy…) and interfering with anti-GW measures and treaties etc. I’ve only been to the US once, but I noticed that many many people are not at all interest in what’s going on in the world. Isolationism in culture, but not in politics. Hell, many people can’t even tell you where the different countries in Europe and Asia are. There seems to be a well educated elite, but the general public appears to be undereducated.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:24 am
Well, being German and living in South America (south of the equator, not just south of the Mason-Dixon line), I don’t think the average John Doe is more nuts than he used to be ten or twenty years ago. It has become more visible with the web, but I’d be surprised if it has become more in total. The US people have always been special, but while in the past it was a reason even to like ‘em, or find them funny, it has become a reason to be scared. That is not, as I say, because of the people in general, but the way the current administration is seen by the world. The basic flavour of the US image in world is political, all the other stuff are overtones. For decades, the western world may not have loved the US all the time, but at least trusted it. That, I must say, has hugely decreased. The religious/anti-science aspect being more visible and more powerful than ever before is only one of many facets. As democracy, there’s always hope things change, but when I read some Davos conference attendant doesn’t even see why there should be problem with the US image in the world, and even recommends the next president to show more selfconfidence, I can only shake my head with open mouth. The world’s been shocked and awed enough for now, give us a break.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:34 am
From a western Canadian point of view, the US has practically disintegrated! We could never understand how you could have possibly re-elected Bush. In what other country could Bush have been elected? Maybe Israel? There are some 40 million Americans with no health care at all. That’s more than the entire population of Canada! Why are there so many religious people in the USA who actually believe that Bush is doing the work of God? We like Americans individually, but cannot understand how the most powerful nation on earth could be collectively so ignorant, so uneducated, so misinformed, so uncaring even about its own people and so easily duped. Scary!! We’re hopeful that the next president will be able to turn this downward slide in reverse. Hopeful but not optimistic.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:04 am
Well, Germany owes America a little bit (you helped us rebuilding a destroyed country after WWII) but in newer times we are also a little bit upset with you. It’s not about creationists and the Moon Hoax and that sort (that’s not even mentioned in the news here, I bet), but it’s all about playing the “savior” and guard of the world. And the invasion of Iraq was one of the worst things America could have ever done.
We don’t hate you, but we are somehow disappointed with you.
But Phil (if you will ever read this post
), I support your fight against creationists and that sort of people!
January 31st, 2008 at 11:08 am
A viewpoint from the Netherlands here:
I think the amazement is not so much about the fact that you have fundies, but the foothold they seem to have gotten in American politics.
We have our share of fundies here and some even get into our government. For instance, one party has been under investigation for not allowing women to run for official positions in their party. Another wants to re-open the debate on abortion and would like to introduce all sorts of morality laws. We also have a party that is fear-mongering against the growing Muslim minority.
Unlike in the US, however, no party like that will ever get an upper hand here, as we have a proportional representation system. The system in the US seems to only allow a two-party system, whereas here we sometimes have dozens of parties taking part in each election. Usually the majority of our government is formed by a coalition of two out of the three or four major moderate parties, easily outweighing the more extreme views. This system has the disadvantage that often plans get diluted to homeopathic solutions by all the compromises, and there will always be some crazies getting into parliament, but at least it’s better than only having a choice for the lesser of two evils that the US seems to offer.
Because of all this, it is really weird to us that America keeps insisting that they are the only true Democracy in the world. Yet most people I talk to or read blogs of in the US seem to not feel represented at all by their government.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:16 am
I have to echo many of Dwight’s remarks. As an aside, even the majority of conservative-voting Canadians are concerned by the Republican Party and it’s power in the US.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:21 am
I really, really don’t think any country (well, ok, maybe Sweden or something) should be laughing at the US. I’m from Mexico and I’m studying in the UK, and believe me, stuff is as bad in these places as I read about in America. Many fellow students are christian fundies, the rest being agnostics/indifferent, and not a single atheist besides myself. Whenever a Briton makes fun of the US, respond with: extant UK blasphemy laws, mandatory religious education in all public schools, government paid faith schools and that whole Ireland thing. Mexico is no better, there is no debate about evolution because no one knows what evolution is. Meanwhile, animistic witch doctors swindle what little money the average person has, a radio “doctor” once prescribed a diabetic hamster piss, yes, I’m not kidding. And he was pronouncing Diabetes wrong (in spanish, obviously). He also told her he could send her the cure she needed, for a price, of course.
Folks, stupidity, religiosity, belief in conspiracy theories, creationism, etc. is THE NORM the whole world over. The one thing is that the US has so many people that know that this is all such a bunch of !@# that it ends up in the media. I think idiocy in the US is not greater than elsewhere. It’s just better documented.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:26 am
# TomInAKon 31 Jan 2008 at 9:15 am
This is all very entertaining. I’m not too upset at non-Americans thinking we’re weird. I’ve been listening to it all my life and have learned to ignore it.
What *is* a little bit disturbing, though, is that so much of the readership of a scientific blog run by a skeptic is so shows so little skepticism when it comes to anti-US stereotypes. So much of what I see typed here is observably, objectively false, yet is accepted uncritically by the mob. I guess the smart set takes things “on faith”, as well.
===========
Tom, one of the leading Republican candidates for President of the United States PRETENDS!!! to take phone calls from God…
Most of these ‘furiners’ are being polite, Sparky.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:36 am
WOW. you all like to bash America and Americans, but our inventions and advancements in technology gives you the ability to sit here and type this .
think about things before you all bash america. we’re not perfect, but either are all of you.
Britan? Rome? Catholociscm??
January 31st, 2008 at 11:47 am
Yepp, sorry but we often are forced to view Americans as generally loonie toons thanks to the great Media Show etc. etc. Which is sad. The isolationist aspect you mentioned is such a scary thing too. It means we can’t even talk about where Hudson Bay is or something equally simple. The (Rick) Mercer Report, a national comedy talk show, I’m sure some of it’s on YouTube, took great delight in skewering Americans by in-the-street interviews, both highly educated and blue collar, as to their knowledge of life anywhere else not in America. It was Scary man, Scary.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:52 am
It is well past time for the Pacific Northwest to fulfill its Manifest Destiny, join with our kindred spirits from British Colombia and form the Republic of Cascadia. No more association with the other Flipped-out Fourty-eight. We have Boeing, Microsoft, BC Hydro, and Starbucks - we can go it alone!
We’ll just have to expel the Discovery Institute…
January 31st, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Barton Paul Levenson, I can understand that you don’t like the slap fest of the US that this thread has become, but gimme a break!
In Europe there is generally a wider political spectrum (with the possible exception of the UK) than in the US, in that there are usually people from all political parties in parliament. This would be impossible without a considerable amount of freedom.
From a personal perspective: I worked at a US government lab during 9/11. At the time I felt it better to put my freedom of speech on hold. I was in the UK during 7/7 (do you even know about that one?), and I had no fears to express my opnions then, which were similarly against the times.
I also know the general US attitude to Mexicans quite well, having lived in LA. I can tell you: the US is at least as xenophobic as any European country.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Europe was, of course, the home of the Great Enlightenment. It’s sad, though, that Europe was also the birthplace of the tragedies we all needed enlightenment FROM.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Xenu,
And my personal experience doesn’t say anything like that. You haven’t cited a shred of objective evidence that supports your opinion, yet you’re making nasty, sweeping indictments.
Regardless of what you like about American high schools, the fact of the matter is that America’s *universities* are consistently found to be better than anything we have in Europe. Scale of research output, production of high-quality textbooks, work-rate of students…by any of these measures, America’s universities outperform those of almost all European countries. Your arrogant claim that Americans are an uneducated bunch is patently false, as is indicated by their dominance of science and technology for the past 60 odd years.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:07 pm
I don’t think the world really derives its opinion of the US from the creationists and ID folk. As Dunc says, the politicians have a far larger affect on the rest of us. I must say that the current State Primaries are actually coming across as quite hopeful in terms of democratic (with a small D) involvement and with the potential for change to the global image of the US for the better.
On the point of how the rest of the world views US creationists, my main exposure to them comes from reading this blog
Of course reports such as that Channel 4 clip are shown occasionally but in reality most people (at least here in the UK) are far more concerned about the effect of the US on the important matters of war, peace, the global economy and the planet.
The question (at the end of Phil’s post) was the more open “How does your country view America?” I’ve spent a good length of time reading the previous 241 comments. In the vast majority of cases people have reported how the media in their countries report the US. Most of these people have taken pains to point out that they don’t believe these stereotypes and have stated the many good things that the US has done/is doing.
We know that US citizens aren’t all stupid, arrogant, ignorant, obese, violent, fundamentalist etc. Of course there are people like that as there are in every other country but there are also many perfectly affable, pleasant, and good people in the US too (and the rest of the world for that matter!). In fact, the majority of US citizens that I’ve ever met outside the US have all been good people and are the opposite of those negative stereotypes. This is stated in many of the previous comments too.
However, some of the comments here have highlighted my own peculiar prejudices. I have realised that I find extremely difficult to tell a US citizen what I actually think about the US. This is because I’m afraid of reactions similar to those of Barton Paul Levenson and TomInAK; people who are extremely emotional about their country and will retaliate to any and all criticism of their country no matter what that criticism is. Friends should be able to accept both criticism and praise without trying to make a fight out of it. I’m perfectly happy to tell my Iranian friend that I don’t like his President or the religious extremism in Iran and will accept criticism of my Prime Minister or actions of my government that I don’t agree with (and there are many) in return. We both know that our governments have faults and don’t defend those faults. I haven’t felt uncomfortable having similar discussions with people from Australia, France, Italy etc. My altered behaviour to US citizens comes in part from seeing some US-based news media but mostly from the poor impression given by some (the minority) of US commenters on blogs.
By the way, Europe is full of a huge range of diverse nations. It is very strange to lump them all together in the way that both US and European citizens have done above. Also, it is rather frustrating to see some people turning this into a US vs European political argument. The vast majority of the people in the world don’t live in either of these places.
Apologies for having a bit of a rant here. I’ll try not to let it happen again.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Of course, you could try and claim that the intellectual disparity between “the elite” and “the common folk” is more pronounced in America than the rest of the world. In this case you’d bloody well need some evidence.
Personally, I haven’t noticed any such difference at all.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Haplo writes:
[[I have no defense to our “la mordida” and stupid government, but cops don’t go torturing people either.]]
See if you can get a look at a detective’s office. See if he has a can of Coke on his desk top.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:18 pm
What this thread shows is that many of you folks outside the USA are incredibly bigoted against us. We have many faults, but I can hear the sound of many glass houses shattering under the barrage of rocks being thrown.
One example: Personally, your country scares me and I refuse to enter the country except under exceptional circumstances.
Is that supposed to even be a sane statement? It’s nonsensical and irrational and the words of an immature mentality.
Another: because I’ve often commented on how dumb it is that in some US states creationism is taught at schools and evolution is not mentioned and all…
No, there is a fringe element trying to get creationism (disguised as “intelligent design”) taught in schools along side evolution, and it’s being fought by the rest of us. Quite well in some places.
The hypocrisy here is astonishing. At the very best, this is meaningless schoolyard taunting based on stereotypes, anecdotal “evidence” and falt out hatemongering.
The USA gets picked on for being ignorant about other countries, but the stereotypes being tossed about here are at a zero level of intellect.
You people disgust me.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:23 pm
QD, what did you expect? The question was: “How does your country view America?” That is tantamount to asking about stereotypes and generalizations. If you were to ask the same question about France, Germany, Russia, etc., you would get very similar things, just with different themes.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Beowulff writes:
[[The system in the US seems to only allow a two-party system, whereas here we sometimes have dozens of parties taking part in each election.]]
Participating in all or most US elections for President or federal positions, there are the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the Reform Party, the Libertarian Party, the American Independent Party, the Constitutional Party, the Right to Life Party, the Green Party, the Communist Party USA, the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Labor Party, the Socialist Party, and the Peace and Freedom Party. One of our congressman, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, is a Socialist Party member.
It’s called the “two-party systems” because the vast majority of Americans have gravitated to the two largest parties, and they get most of the media attention. They’ve also managed to rig the laws to tilt elections in their favor. But the widespread extra-US impression that only two political parties are allowed in the US is wrong.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:24 pm
JD, I wish I could remember where I read this statistic, but I don’t, so no source I’m afraid: 78% of people in the US and Canada cheat their way through their undergraduate studies (the number drops to single digits for higher degrees).
Kind of a funny and scary personal anecdote along a similar vein:
I remember when my mom was getting her undergraduate degree a few years ago (she was in her late 40’s and was embarrassed to be ‘around all the young people hehehehehe). She was in a 4th year History course in a University in OK. She was asked by one of her fellow students to proofread one of the papers this woman had written. So my mom does, and she is astonished at this woman’s poor writing skills. She emailed it to me to check out, and it was unbelievable. Literally grade 5 level writing. Remember, this is a 4th year about-to-graduate formal research paper, not some quick forum post that just got knocked off in a few minutes. So my mom does what she can with it, which isn’t much (correcting to ,too, two and there, their, they’re errors and such things), cause she doesn’t want to re-write the woman’s whole paper, and the woman just hands it in as is.
And she passed. Now as I’d mentioned my mom was in her late-40’s, and like many woman that age she was starting to have her busy-body genes activate (I know, massive generalization, but ehhh). So she goes to the professor after class and asks him how he could have passed that paper. And he says “I know it was terrible, but I had to do it. If I don’t maintain a certain GPA in my classes I get fired. If the University as a whole doesn’t maintain a certain GPA then no one comes here. But how can I teach these people? Some of them are essentially illiterate! They were passed through school at every stage, and they never learned a da**ed thing. I can’t teach them 20 years worth of material in one term. So I pass them, because I have no other option.”
That woman ended up getting her undergrad degree at the same time my mom did. You know what she does now? She’s a high school teacher in Oklahoma. Fear her, cause she and those like her are teaching your kids.
As a little side note to the Americans (Statzers?) with ruffled feathers, people, Phil asked everyone to give the prevailing opinion toward the US in the region that they are from. And that’s what most people are doing. So don’t knock them for answering the question.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Wow, one socialist in Congress! I take it all back: the US really is the only free country in the world…
January 31st, 2008 at 1:28 pm
As an American who has traveled extensively in Europe and Africa, I find many of the comments interesting.
Speaking with Europeans while traveling, most of whom have never been to the US, the ignorance of America is astounding–yet, almost everyone is quite happy to tell us what we’re doing wrong and why our country is out of wack with the rest of the world. Be about the same as taking someone off the streets of an American city who has never been to Europe and asking them their opinion of any European country–lots of bombastic opinion, no idea what they’re talking about.
Possibly more of an issue than Bush, religion, or anything else is we no longer really seem to know one another. What shows up in American papers about the UK? The nuts in the Royal family; the crazy celebrities; how poor their health system is; the ridiculous tax structure.
And what do we learn in American papers about France? How rude the French are; how silly their pomposity is; the inflated egos of a dying country; how good their wine.
Funny thing is, when I travel, I find much the same about the US in their papers.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I have an idea for something that would do away with nearly all the misconceptions about people in other countries, whether from a US or a non-US point of view. I know this is going to sound bizarre, even crazy, but think about it seriously for a minute:
Why don’t we try TREATING PEOPLE AS INDIVIDUALS instead of stereotyping them on the basis of the groups or nations they belong to?
January 31st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Because it is impractical.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
What *is* a little bit disturbing, though, is that so much of the readership of a scientific blog run by a skeptic is so shows so little skepticism when it comes to anti-US stereotypes. So much of what I see typed here is observably, objectively false, yet is accepted uncritically by the mob. I guess the smart set takes things “on faith”, as well.
All it shows is that human beings, wherever they are, are basically stupid. Some think they know a little science and call themselves “skeptical”, but they’re just as stupid and ignorant and bigoted as any fat Evangelical hillbilly (to intentionally use a stereotype) in different ways.
We have one of the most diverse populations ever seen. The moment any of them say “Americans are [fill in the blank]” they are already completely off the reality map.
And you are correct: the self-righteousness on display is very similar to that of any hard core Christian. Just because there’s no invisible sky being involved, they think it’s OK.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:37 pm
QD, what did you expect?
I expected exactly what happened. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.
The question was: “How does your country view America?” That is tantamount to asking about stereotypes and generalizations. If you were to ask the same question about France, Germany, Russia, etc., you would get very similar things, just with different themes.
Probably, but I’d wager the level of vitriol would be far less with the exception of obvious special cases.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Owlbear1:
So, apparently Huckabee engaged in a little cheesy theater a few years ago . . . . . and this is proof positive that the USA will be ruled by Christian mullahs come 2009.
Sorry . . . I exaggerate a bit, though not by much. I remember a year or two back, when the internet (and maybe the print media, too, though I forget) was abuzz with the word that Pres. Bush said he invaded Iraq because “god told him to.” When someone finally tracked down the source of the quote, it turned out to one, single, Palestinian diplomat who, when pressed on the issue, admitted that Bush hadn’t really claimed that at all. By then, of course, Europe had collectively soiled itself and the entire US left had accepted it as indisputable fact that the Chimperor hung out in the Oval Office baying at the moon and taking orders directly from God. Hell, there were probably even a few parades with giant, papier mache heads and people banging drums over the whole thing.
On a couple of less sarcastic notes:
1) As a previous commenter pointed out, the numbers of Evangelical Christians simply aren’t great enough to turn the US into a “Theocracy”. The country is a bit less than half left-of-center, a bit less than half right-of-center, with an undecided sliver in the middle that is the target of both parties at election time. Of the right-of-center faction, I would guess that fewer than a third are heavily religious, and even fewer than that are literal believers in every single word of the Bible. On top of that, there are plenty of constitutional mechanisms to prevent the establishment of a state religion, or whatever everyone else is so afraid of. In short, the charge that the US is now, or is in any danger of ever becoming, a “Theocracy” are utterly silly and completely paranoid.
2) I have know a number of evangelical Christians over the years, and work for one now. Folks . . . these are real people, not cartoon characters. A few have been scumbags (just like the general population), but most are extremely decent and very easy to get along with. Many, if not most, would give you the shirt off their backs if you were in need. If the dreaded “Theocracy” ever came to pass in the US, it would probably mean that you couldn’t buy gay porn on Sunday, or that your 13 year old daughter would actually need your permission to get an abortion. It wouldn’t mean battalions of preachers running the House, Senate, & Executive branch.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Seriously, most of you folks need to turn in your skepticism licenses, badges and decoder rings.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:51 pm
I have know a number of evangelical Christians over the years, and work for one now. Folks . . . these are real people, not cartoon characters.
It doesn’t matter. Memes rule all. Stereotypes are easier than thinking. It’s easier to hate a group than consider the individuals. Hate is simple. Hate is easy.
Disturbingly, a quote from Stalin sum it up nicely: “A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.”
An individual is a real person. Complicated. Layered. Unpredictable in many ways. There’s a uniqueness there unreplicated by any other individual. You can love them. You can feel indifferent. You can also hate them, but for very definable and personal reasons.
A large group of people is an integer.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Some very interesting comments. There were a couple of questions, “How does your country view america?”, and “do US creationists make the world think we’re crazy?” They led to quite a few interesting answers.
I’ve been outside the US, though it’s been a while. And I found that were misconceptions. Some of that is to be expected. Anytime your views of something come from what you hear and not from being there and witnessing it you’re not going to get a complete picture. The US has always been my home and yet I know to describe it as only I’ve witnessed would be incomplete. I’ve never met anyone who loudly proclaimed that evolution was wrong and shouldn’t be taught, though I know there are people like that.
Though I find the fear of things like creationists or the president ( pick any one ) to be a lot of hyperbole, Phil’s post led to a lot of interesting comments. Though I had to laugh at some.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
And what do we learn in American papers about France? How rude the French are; how silly their pomposity is; the inflated egos of a dying country; how good their wine.
I remember the coverage of Sarkozy’s election being pretty good, not to mention the rioting and some decent analysis of what led to it. I know France in undergoing a swing from public to private ownership of many companies and is looking to more market oriented mechanisms.
Maybe you aren’t reading very good newspapers? Or reading the Onion?
Besides, it’s not the French who are generally rude. It’s just those damned Parisians!
January 31st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Celtic_Evolution: Dude, you’re really cool! =)
May I remind, to those who said that some comments seem to have been writen by everything but skeptics, that Phil asked for an opinion over the way we, as a country, see the USA. Not that I believe most of what’s been said here, but in my country, there’s an old saying that goes like: Whenever the river sounds, it’s because whater flows through it. - or something like that anyway xD (which in other words, goes about whenever people talk about something, it’s because some thruth is hidden in the words temselves)
January 31st, 2008 at 2:12 pm
What the comments have really shown is just how little people outside know about the US. Yes, almost every comment has been a cartoon stereotype. From the comments, one would think that the Christians here run amuck and control the country. You’d think that Bush was a monarch, with total control. You’d think that science isn’t taught.
Then you look around the world and you see the mess France, Germany, the UK and the rest of the world is in. Seems like the rationale is to blame the US. After all, why take responsibility when you can blame someone else?
Innovation–the US is still on top. Scientific discovery–same. Engineering–same. Healthcare–same. As a matter of fact, on almost any scale of innovation and invention the US is the leader–and has been for a 100 years.
I’ll take my backward, fat, ill educated, too religious, too conservative country.
The same ill conceived prejudices other countries have of the US, people in the US have of them. Most Americans see European countries as lost, immoral, useless drags on the world. Rioting in France over having to actually work for a living. Riots in the UK over a stupid soccer game. And the list goes on.
Unless people really want to learn about one another, the result will be each viewed by the other as cartoon characters. But, then, as stated above, getting to know one another is too hard–it actually takes effort–and worse, it takes someone with an open mind. Don’t seem to be many here. Maybe those who claim to have a deep interest in science are too shallow and close-minded to be objective?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
“I remember the coverage of Sarkozy’s election being pretty good, not to mention the rioting and some decent analysis of what led to it. I know France in undergoing a swing from public to private ownership of many companies and is looking to more market oriented mechanisms.”
Certainly, there is some good coverage of Europe–but most is sensationalist. Just as in Europe, there is some good coverage of America. But there, too, much is sensationalist, slanted and written by those who really don’t understand the US.
The point is that much of we get in America is the worst or the most sensational of other countries; just as much of what they get about us is the worst or the most sensational we have to offer.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
From Belgium -
Can it really be true that only 25% of Americans understand the strengths of the theory of natural selection??
How can this be compatible with US scientific achievements?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:36 pm
America is a nation of immigrants - Every nationality in this world is represented in America, so stereotyping US does not make sense.
However, as a US citizen I have noticed that most Americans tend not to question the media which is getting increasingly blatant in dictating morals, political views to the masses. The conspiracy theory nuts are actually a good sign and far better than those who blindly go to work every day and return home to watch American Idol - a horrible show where three untalented jerks insult the contestants trying to sing. If there was any talent on the show - they will be quickly rejected and insulted.
Americans don’t even realize that some cable outlets actually provide public access tv where local residents can submit their own shows. (sort of like you tube television - and from which I found the show on msdivine.net).
America seems to have so much great ideas and so much innovation but it is all lost because of the unthinking MAJORITY who spoil everything that is good.
Americans are actually so stupid they don’t realize what makes their country BETTER than others. Freedom of speech is rapidly getting eroded here because people don’t ‘get it’ that even those with unpopular views should be allowed to express them. Clinton brought hate crime legislation and Bush the horribly oppressive Patriot Act. What a joke!
American media is not really supportive of religous wackos (except Fox news), but all media outlets harp the same government propaganda.
Yet, despite the morons living here, America has the most diverse population anywhere on this planet. The best scientists end up here , America has the most geniuses, the quirkiest entertainers, and sorting through the crap - the most diverse art even.
Religious fundamentalism is actually a retarded reaction to the leftist zealots who like to create a society like George Orwell’s 1984.
America has democracy - but all candidates are already picked by the establishment. Incidentally, one person Ron Paul was not and was slandered on this very site for being a creationist (he was not)
America will soon have to choose between Mcain and Clinton. The lesser of the two evils - hard to say probably Clinton but Mcain is the louder warmonger and WILL BE elected!
January 31st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I want to remind all USAnians that still are reading this, that most of this views are what our countries think of USA, and NOT our personal views on people from USA. Also, all countries have their fair share of wackos, idiots and lunatics. And stereotypes are formed and mantained everywhere, it just happens that you’re the most powerful country in the world, hence, you get more publicity.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Oh, I forgot…
American also are thin-skinned. They think, you know, that the whole world is so UNFAIR to them. ::)
Dudes, easy solution: make sure the world no longer needs to give a d*** about whoever you pick as your President, and then you will be comfortably, generally, quietly ignored as most of the 190+ countries in this world are…
January 31st, 2008 at 3:34 pm
However, as a US citizen I have noticed that most Americans tend not to question the media which is getting increasingly blatant in dictating morals, political views to the masses.
Piffle. All people in this country do is make fun of the media. The problem is that the ratings system is based on an small and biased sample, so the various programs get sufficient ratings to charge enough for advertising time to stay in business. Same with the dippy music industry. It’s driven by a very small slice of the population.
The conspiracy theory nuts are actually a good sign and far better than those who blindly go to work every day and return home to watch American Idol - a horrible show where three untalented jerks insult the contestants trying to sing.
Same thing. How many people *really* watch that show. Answer: we have no idea.
And it almsot sounds like you are deriding people who work for a living. What’s up with that? Why even mention that? Why not just say “people who watch American Idol?” Gee, so sorry I have a successful career.
Americans don’t even realize that some cable outlets actually provide public access tv where local residents can submit their own shows. (sort of like you tube television - and from which I found the show on msdivine.net).
Piffle. Public access TV is a staple food of the stand up comedy circuit and sketch television shows. Wayne’s World anyone?
Americans are actually so stupid
(rolls eyes)
Great Ceasar’s Ghost, get over yourself!
I give up. The rest of your post is just more cartoonish nonsense even where I might agree with some of the basic sentiments.
How old are you? What do you do for a living? What’s your educational background. What’s your basis for decalring Americans so stupid? What’s your credentials?
America will soon have to choose between Mcain and Clinton.
Yeah, Obama and Romney really faded away. Oh, wait a minute…
hard to say probably Clinton but Mcain is the louder warmonger and WILL BE elected!
Well, which is it? Probably Clinton but WILL BE McCain? You can’t even keep a straight course inside of one sentence.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:38 pm
American also are thin-skinned. They think, you know, that the whole world is so UNFAIR to them.
Have you even read the posts? We’re supposed to sit and take a bunch of ignorant, bigoted crap and not speak up? The responses to the hatemongeroing here has been restrained and articulate. You’re just another pusher of hate and bile.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Rioting in France over having to actually work for a living.
Um, no.
The riots were a response (not that I justify it) against racial and social discrimination. The initial stressor was an altercation between police and some youths, two people electrocuted to death at a power station, conflicting stories and confustion.
But, hey, what do I know? Despite being a satcom engineer in Los Angeles with nine patents to my name, I’m still put in the same pigeonhole as the mythical Joe Bob the 900 pound hillbilly who’s married to his sister and has possum pie and Bud Lite for breakfast.
Oops! Gotta go! I’m late for my Klan meeting! And then I have to go down to Zeke’s Bar. There’s a corn nut with the face of baby Jesus on it.
http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/160
January 31st, 2008 at 3:58 pm
As Haplo says, Phil asked people to report how their country views America (US). That question will be answered with stereotypes but does not mean that anyone who reports the stereotypes necessarily thinks them to be true.
Do the French all ride around on bicycles with berets and strings of onions? Do Germans all wear lederhosen and drink beer in huge mugs? Do Australians walk around with corks hanging from their hats, holding a boomerang and playing a didgeridoo? No, they don’t, but these might be the equivalent answers if the question had been about other countries.
May I offer up my country (the UK) to have its stereotypes discussed next? That should be amusing.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:19 pm
>> American[sic] also are thin-skinned. They think, you know, that the whole world is so UNFAIR to them.<<
“You know,” my grandfather was serving in the Army in France one fine August day in 1944 when Paris was liberated, and he actually had a lot of nice things to say about the town after the war.
Of course, his stories tended to wander away from the town itself (restaurants, etc.) and more toward the young French women and the myriad ways in which they expressed their gratitude to him and his comrades for their bravery. “You know.”
(But only when my mother wasn’t in the room, of course.)
See? We can all get along after all.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot:
January 31st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Since I’m decidedly atypical for any human society, I’ll refrain from speaking about how Swedes in general view the US, but instead focus on my own perceptions.
For the most part, the fringe doesn’t really show up. For me, I had to pause to assemble that these were actual, sincere opinions when I first encountered Apollo hoaxers, creationists and 9/11 “theorists”. Since then, I’ve met (and debated) our home-grown versions here as well, showing that we have most of the same kind of lunatics here. The awareness of the ideas is slowly spreading among the geeks I hang out with, as something to laugh about.
What puzzles me about the US is not that you have kooks. Everyone has kooks. What puzzles me is that your politicians give them the time of day. The blatant kow-towing to the religious right is another thing. It’s starting to show in general, and generally induces bafflement.
We have creationists, White Supremacists, televangelist-like cults, and all the rest. Some imported, some home-grown. But the general public place them in the general category of “people whose opinions I won’t have to humor” and move on. Even the Christian Democrats - who are part of the ruling coalition at the moment - haven’t tried to bring creationism into schools. I doubt most of them are even aware of the idea.
As for the presidential candidates, the news here focuses on the Obama/Clinton battle, since there isn’t any clear leader on the Rep. side yet. That also means that those candidates haven’t been examined that thoroughly.
My own opinion of the USA is mainly shaped by politics. I’m none too keen on the current foreign policy, but what disturbs me is the loss of freedom that has happened inside the country. The Patriot act specifically made me put the USA on my personal no-fly list, an “honour” that it shares with Turkey and most of the Middle East. Not because I have any reasonable fear that I would be mistaken for a terrorist, but because if I was, there would be no legal recourse left to me. (I’ll admit that part of this is that my own government has the spine of a wet noodle if forced to protect its own citizens, but still)
My view of the country then? A deeply fragmented place - parts as enlightened and advanced as any other place on the planet, and parts still barely out of the 19th century. The bizarre thing is that both those things can often be found in the same place, or even in the same person. What worries me is that the flaws seem to be spreading, and there’s little being done to stop them. Perhaps a new presidency will help to rectify things, but I’m doubtful.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Every country has parts that are rich and parts that are poor. Every country has educated people and uneducated people. Every country has religious fanatics, witch doctor types, hermits, you-name-it.
It’s ridiculous for any country and point to another country and say look how weird those people are or to think “all people in that country must live that way.”
I was born and raised in New York. I can tell you that most educated people view Creationists as bizarre, insane people. However, there are some educated people (some scientists even) that have switched sides. Why? Who knows. Yes, the Creationists want to teach story-as-fact in the schools or claim that both should be taught. Even in New York, someone came up with the idea that Ebonics should be taught in schools for black youth so they can be “taught in their language”. It’s like sure, let’s CREATE a segregation by teaching them “Ebonics” so when they try to enter the real world and get a job, they won’t know English. There’s always going to be some crazy idea like that. But those crazy ideas never make it too far.
As for Bush being a “dictator” or whatever word someone else posted, he’s not. He may try to act like one, but we have a separation of powers that already has challenged him on his snooping on Americans and the goings on at the Guantanamo military base.
As for religion entering our politics… our founding fathers had the foresight to strip politics of religious influence. There’s a very good reason for that — it’s so we aren’t ruled by someone who told him that god or whoever told him to do that. And YES, Bush has used that line himself, which I find very sad. All I can say is that I didn’t vote for him. He’s the most ignorant man ever to hold the Presidency. He lost both elections, yet managed to wiggle his way in. It’s embarrassing to our nation, but hey, there’s always a bad seed. Thankfully, we have term limits, and as long as we don’t have Huckabee as President, we should do much better in our post-Bush years.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:14 pm
@ retcon
I insist, we’re not trying to insult you guys, the question was that we stated our general country view on your country.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Boy Phil opened a can of worms with this one.
A lot of ignorance about the States, and yes, most of us are ignorant about the rest of the world.
I’m from Kansas, and I’d be willing to bet that most of the readers of this blog think creationism is taught in the schools in Kansas. Even fellow americans. It’s not, the goofy unscientific changes to the education standards never made it anywhere, the creationists were kicked out the very next election by a landslide, and it was a stillbirth. It is illegal in Kansas to teach creationism, or ID, in a public school. But do many people know that? How many people heard the news that it was defeated? They just heard the sensationalist news that ID was going to be taught along side evolution (which isn’t true, they were going to leave off question about evolution on the stanardized test). People jumped to conclusions about Kansas and were just as ignorant as the creationists. You’d think Kansas would be held up as a shining example of the triumph of rationality over pseudo science, but instead we are still mocked for teaching creationism when that is an outright falsehood.
This thread proves to me how little all countries really know about other countries. Which is very depressing cause I thought the readers of BadAstronomy.Com where more intelligence then what they are showing here. Not just the US bashing, but the ignorant knew-jerk responses from Americans.
Phil, you made a mistake asking that question, I’m disappointed and depressed. Can’t we all just get along? All of us are on the same side here, the side of rational and critical thought and pro-science. Who cares what country one belongs too?
January 31st, 2008 at 5:44 pm
“Rioting in France over having to actually work for a living.
Um, no.
The riots were a response (not that I justify it) against racial and social discrimination. The initial stressor was an altercation between police and some youths, two people electrocuted to death at a power station, conflicting stories and confustion.”
You’re right, I misspoke. Unfortunately thinking about the next sentence and not paying attention to the one I was writing. Not riots, but work stoppages. What can I say? American ADD.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Australian here.
I have to say that like a lot of non-US people I don’t have a particularly favourable reaction to what’s going on in the USA and its actions around the world.
Having said that, I DO think a lot of the anti-US sentiment around the world, both that in the media and of individuals, is driven by jealousy of what is (currently) the richest and most powerful country in the world. If you’re getting by without much then its comforting to make fun of those that are complaining about things when they have so much. Australians always make fun of the powerful and since the US is the most powerful we will always make the most fun out of you.
It also must be said that there is no country on earth (well, with the possible exception of Bhutan
) that does not have its own issues on a par or considerably worse than those currently afflicting the USA, whether its the rising tide of racism in Europe or here, uncontrollable corruption in Asia or genocidal leaders in Africa.
However, the religious fundamentalism rising in the US is a concern. Fundamentalism of any type is always a concern as it breeds narrow-minded intolerance, bigotry, fear, hatred and, more often than not, violence. That is a huge concern when it starts occurring in a country with a huge, powerful and well-equipped military.
The US became as powerful as it currently is via the forces of a free society, capitalism and science. The constant eroding of science and freedom that has occurred in the USA over the last decade or so is cause for major concern for ALL of us because what happens in the USA goes on to affect the rest of the world.
I know not all Americans are ingorant, fat and lazy SOBs. I’ve been to the US and loved the place and I also very nearly married an American girl and she most definitely was not an ignorant, stupid whackjob. Like I said, a lot of these cliches are driven by jealousy, but under that jealousy there is real concern and fear over the direction of your country.
The US, and the rest of the world, needs someone to stand up for once and say that being religious does not mean that you have to be a fundamentalist. The to believ does not mean you have to persecute those that don’t share your beliefs. That to be a baptist doesn’t mean you have to be a member of the Westboro Baptists.
That faith is not more important than facts or truth.
That to believe in God does not mean that you don’t have to use your brain.
If only someone like Bishop Spong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong) would run for President…
January 31st, 2008 at 5:59 pm
to Quiet_Desperation
Regarding And it almsot sounds like you are deriding people who work for a living. What’s up with that? Why even mention that? Why not just say “people who watch American Idol?
What baffoonery you are displaying - Yes I am deriding brain dead people who work all the time (even though they dont have to) and yes most of them do watch American Idol or some other similar nonsense. Its not the fact that they work for a living - its the fact that they can’t think outside their little world.
(rolls eyes) - You must be brain dead if you do that often … close minded maggots do this ALL the time when they hear or see something new.
Yeah, Obama and Romney really faded away. Oh, wait a minute…
Mark my words they are meaningless.Obama will be gone after a hard fight and Romney is ALREADY gone!
I was wondering if Clinton is preferable to Mcain, in my opinion
Not if she would win - she will not.
I KNOW Mcain WIll be the next president.
This blog called for everyone to take shots at America and Americans - I specifically mentioned that you cannot stereotype, but the fact is MOST Americans are stupid. (Perhaps most in other countries are stupid too but certainly not as arrogant at the same time) .
Television /entertainment is dictated by the masses for the profit of the corporations - if American Idol was not popular they would not be a profit in broadcasting it. If Americans stopped watching network television crap - the programming would change .. The power is in the hands of the people - Hell Americans could have even voted for Ron Paul - the only real antiwar candidate.
Americans like Mcain because he is strong on ‘national security’ read warmonger –
You think people can think about anything else if they work 10 hrs a day working a brain dead managerial job and think only of making more money?
January 31st, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Adding retcon, Barton Paul Levinson and Quiet_Desperation to the list of those proving my point.
This thread is more or less ‘what do you think in wrong with the US?’ and as such is going to elicit negative responses. If the leading question was one designed to elicit positive opinions I expect that many of the commentators would probably have just as much to say. (Whether they would say it, what with human nature and the anonymity granted by the internet is another question.)
And thanks for Stuart to saying some of what I was trying to a little more clearly.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:47 pm
observer,
I’m assuming your posts are intended to be humor. Just looking to rile someone for a bit of fun?
If they aren’t, you’re the definition of arrogant. Your narrow-mindedness and shallowness is showing. That last post is the poster child of why so many deride the education provided by our public schools.
Having read much of your website, you can drop the intellectually superior act. It doesn’t fit.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Patrick
Yes, my posts are intended to be humor, but there is an underlying truth to it and your snobbish little comment about public schools clearly shows how little you know.. (Public schools in US can only create mindless drones with vocubulary limited to wazzup yo try ting ) But no I don’t have the time to add commas and spell check on some blog post. As for being inflammatory - try to understand what I am saying underneath the flames.
Having read much of your website, you can drop the intellectually superior act.
What website? Are you a pervert too? That is not my website .. is this your fantasy or something?
You think that a hot chick running her own comedy shows would be writing in this humorless dreck hole? (and if you think her humor somehow reflects a less than average IQ - that only proves how lacking your reasoning powers are )
Look at my first post - I said I saw her show on public access television
Not that I am her !
Here is another website: www.madonna.com
You think I am her too?
I think I’ll throw up …
January 31st, 2008 at 9:20 pm
OK, observer. I have to admit I’m an idiot. I forgot that incorrect grammar, inability to spell and lack of logic are signs of a superior intelligence. Please forgive me.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Dear observer,
1. What are you smoking?
2. Can I have some?
Hugs,
Quiet Desperation
January 31st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Boy Phil opened a can of worms with this one.
Cans of worms *should* be opened. They are the second best type of can to open.
The very best type to open is a can of whoop ass.
The third best is, of course, Mountain Dew.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I live in what could be called a medium size rural town in Australia and everyone (well at least the people I know) is a bit sick and tired of all of silliness that comes of the states.
Sorry Mr BA but we associate the states with religious fundamentalism, guns, war, bad food and bad TV, Well except for the Sci-Fi :>
January 31st, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Heya, I used to be on the forums way back but have been reading the blog since.
I think the scariest thing about the US is how uncommon common sense seems to be. Every minority, no matter how silly their beliefs, gets equal screen time as rational thinkers, just so nobody can scream discrimination later.
Of course, overall poverty and education levels compared to other first-world countries are giving me nightmares as well…
(for the record, I live in Sweden)
February 1st, 2008 at 12:34 am
jokergirl, we’re saddled with a lot of self destructive subcultures in the USA. There’s some cultures where education and striving to improve oneself simply is not valued, and it breaks across all racial and ethnic lines. Just one example, here in Southern California we have a lot of very recent immigrants (legal and otherwise) from Mexico and Central America, and the main thing weighing them down is too many generations of Catholic tradition. That’s my amateur sociological analysis, at least.
Ain’t religion grand?
Remember that Sweden government spending for 60-ish percent of the GDP. I really don’t think that would be practical here. Things like that simply don’t scale up well as far as I can tell.
Good chocolates, though.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:10 am
Hi. I live in Denmark.
Mostly the US is considered a close allied, but since George W. Bush was elected, the attitude towards the US has been worse.
The danish society is generally not very religious, and most of the population, although member of the christian church, never visits church. We don’t pray much and so on.
When something tragic happens here, we say something like “Our thoughts are with the victims” whereas in the US we always here that “Our prayers are with the victims”
In our view, prayers don’t work, and for a president to use prayers, is just too much for us.
Most of the people I know, think that the US is becoming more and more religious, and we find that to be a dangerous path.
A lot of danes believe that a lot of the politics in the US is influenced (in a bad way) by religion, and that the wars in the middle east is not just about the oil, it’s becoming more and more about religion.
Fundamental christianity is just as dangerous as fundamental islam.
Other than that, we shake our heads at the americans for other things. For instance it’s ok to make violent tv and movies where people are blown to pieces, but as soon as a bare ass or a breast is seen, the network get’s a large fine. Even the f-word must be censored. Thats totally nuts.
In Denmark is ok to show naked people on tv, in newspapers and on the internet, even in prime time. Hard core porn is reserved for after midnight though.
In Copenhagen there is even a few local tv stations sharing the same transmitter, one is a religious one transmitting in the daytime, and another is broadcasting hard core porn at night. On our Cable-TV we have a shared transmitter broadcasting childrens programming in the daytime, and softcore porn during the night. That must seem funny to americans.
On the other hand, the violent american movies are generally not broadcast until after 10 pm.
I don’t know if it can be accounted as a result of that, but in Denmark there are very few murders, we can even leave a baby sleeping outside (using a radio transmitter to hear if the baby cries) even in our largest cities, and we are very safe. Sexually we are very free. Premarital sex and children born aoutside of marriage is commonplace here.
A few examples: My parents married two months before I was born, I got married two years after my daugther was born, some of our friends has not even married yet, and they have two children aged three and five. Very commonplace here.
In the US it’s the opposite, or at least thats the perception here. You are generally unsafe everywhere, risking to be shot by any nutter with a gun. But dare to have sex before marriage, and you are danmed by the community.
Bottom line is: We generally think that the US has done a lot of good during history, but we think you are nuts when it comes to guns, sex, and religion.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:31 am
Greetings from Finland.
Mainstream media shows maily two views about the US.
1) Bush is stupid, wacko and US Foreign Policy is a series of blind, greedy men blundering into things they don’t understand
2) When newspapers need a light, joke-style news, they print stuff from US Legislation or religious nuts.
So, the common view is that most Yanks are ignorant, uneducated and… well, you get the picture.
It’s often very hard to try to justify US actions on coffee-table conversations etc.
So, get a nice democrat in the office and get back as the Nr.1 nation in the world, the way you used to be after WW2!
February 1st, 2008 at 4:41 am
Hello from Argentina. (Excuse any language mistake)
I haven read all the posts, but I think I am the first Latin-american to write in. I don’t pretend to express the opinion of the entire continent, but I’ll try to generalize as much as I can.
Here in the south do not pay much atention to this or other religious movements in USA. Most of the people think it’s not even religous-based, but another excuse for segregation and racist policies.
Our mayor concern right now is the way you seem to rely on military solution to foreign affairs. It’s not a secret that the USA has sponsored most of the criminal Latin-american dictatorships of the past century in order to save us from Communism.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:09 am
Patrick,
I appreciate your defense of the US. That being said, I don’t know if you can accurately say that we have the best health care. We might have the best techniques, technologies, and practitioners, but in practice a lot of the population doesn’t have access to any of that. Thus the debate over national health insurance. (I’m pro on that one.)
February 1st, 2008 at 6:13 am
Stuart posts:
[[Do Germans all wear lederhosen and drink beer in huge mugs?]]
Only during Oktoberfest.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:19 am
ScottB posts:
[[If only someone like Bishop Spong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong) would run for President…]]
So instead of a narrow-minded, blinkered, incompetent theist in the White House, like we have now, we’d have a narrow-minded, blinkered, incompetent atheist. No thanks.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:45 am
Barton Paul Levenson–
I really don’t think there’s a question we have the best healthcare system as witnessed by the thousands from other countries who beat a path to the US for our healthcare.
Health insurance coverage on the other hand is a different topic all together. I am staunchly against government mandated and funded universal healthcare. We have plenty of examples of it–and we’ll end up just like them. Government is the worst choice for getting anything done. Is health insurance expensive in America? Yes. Is there a large number without health insurance? Yes. About 12 million are illegal aliens; about 20 million are middle, upper-middle, and upper class who choose not to purchase; leaving about 15 to 20 million who cannot afford it. Do we need to find a solution? Of course. The government isn’t the answer–it’s a large part of the problem.
But we’re getting way off topic.
February 1st, 2008 at 7:12 am
Barton Paul Levenson wrote:
Nowhere did I say that there is a law in the US that says there should never be more than two parties. I also doubt there are that many people that genuinly think that. I merely think that the US system is rigged such that it is neigh impossible for any party other than the Democrats and the Republicans to get into power, like you have indicated yourself even.
February 1st, 2008 at 8:17 am
I think most people from abroad can figure out that nutters are spread liberally throughout the world not just in the the USA. I was in a youth hostel in the UK last year explaining to my nephew about evolution and had a beardy tutting on the next table. I was bloody angry and if he’d hung around a bit longer I’d have had words.
Thankfully, politicians here don’t talk about religion here at all. It’s odd that in a state in which there is a state religion, the Church of England, religion is pretty much absent from public debate. And in the USA where separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution, your politicians never stop talking about it and seem to have to prostrate themselves to the most radical religious people in order to get elected.
February 1st, 2008 at 8:42 am
deja vou!
In a country that is credited as the most advanced in Science and Technology of the day there are people who stick to the literal meaning of a book that says the whole Creation was a
one-week job of a bearded non-Black male.
Contradictions coexisting! deja vou!
In a country that has been spearheading space achievements starting with humans commuting between earth and artificial satellites, and
humans residing in those satellites going round and round the globe for months together,
there are societies that hold that the earth is flat,
cults who get set on mass suicde in anticipation of an arriving comet coming to take them all to God knows where
…. deja vou!
In a great nation of world-level intellectuals - mathematicians and philosophers,
there are states that would legislate that pi=3 and no more -
deja vou!
yea! deja vou!
My memory goes back to
what, 800 years ago,
Al Biruni the great Arabian prodigy in astronomy said in his book on the Hindus - [the Indian Subcontinent of to-day] -
” The Hindus to-day are the world’s most accomplished computors and precise predictors of the motion of the moon and the earth in an eclipse; and it is the same Hindus who, during the eclipse. go out beating the earth with sticks to scare away the serpent devouring the moon!”
In a society wherein the most advanced knowledge is found, there is the opposite of it also co-prevalent! A sort of ‘Conservation of Knowledge’ so to say!
It is Indian philosophy - the Upanishads, Zen, Sufi - that Opposites coexist in everything - every action, every thinking.
Even in Physics to-day, we have come to face the question of ‘anti-matter’.
So, not unimaginably, Knowledge and anti-knowledge are found
co-eval. What is happening in the US is hence nothing new.
Only the difference is: Anti-knowledge is hijacking the hegemony of national administration, Bushing, sorry pushing Knowledge aside!
en passant:
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution has never been a bolt from the blue nor even a sudden new wonder of scientific thought
to the Indian minds steeped in the naturalness of the idea of a completely connected graph spanning all forms of life -
‘from a blade of grass right up to the holiest saint’ as the most unlettered peasants sing in the centuries-old folk songs and ballads.
Amen!
nbalu
February 1st, 2008 at 9:05 am
Something else I need to get off my chest. Some US posters here clearly feel attacked by all the criticism (despite that it often mirrors their own) and have been militantly defending the US in their posts (I don’t think I need to mention names). However, I have to point out that by doing this, they are actually confirming one other very common stereotype about Americans: Americans dogmatically believe their country is the Greatest Country In The World. Anything or anyone that might shed even the slightest doubt on it will be vigilantly attacked, often with tactics that remind one of religious arguments. For some people, being “patriottic” seems to be more important than being realistic. (Do I have to point out that I do not think all Americans are like that? Or that many Americans themselves are annoyed by such types?)
As a sidenote: notice how many fundamentalist Christians try to get a share of this power by claiming the US was founded as a Christian nation, and that really, being patriottic means being Christian…
I’ve also read several posts claiming that people posting criticism on the US are simply bigotted against Americans. I highly doubt that. In fact, I would wager that the vast majority of the non-US posters here have online friends from the US. In my case, my girlfriend is even from the US and is now happily living with me in the Netherlands. Also, in my personal experience, many of my online friends from the US validate my views of the US, as they have very similar concerns. But I suppose that just makes them unpatriottic communists, rather than give my views any more validity…
February 1st, 2008 at 10:08 am
hi, one more Brazilian. (hi André and Daniel
)
I will like to add on what André and Daniel already written. Yes we are very exposed to US culture and news. Much of the foreign news we get here are from the USA. But not everyone loves the “Americans”.
We have an extreme left people who blame all the problems of our country on the US and hate everything that even smells like American. Those types in many ways are akin to conspiracy nuts you have on your side of the American Continent.
On the other side we have extreme right people who thinks that every single thing that are initiated in here is doomed to fail and that Americans and the USA, or France back in the beginning of the 20th century, is the best thing in the world.
Of course most people are in the middle of those opposite sides. Since we do have a very high inferiority complex, we do tend to the second, but ever since Bush started his war on everything that moves and is not American, a lot of people are showing more of the “I hate Americans” side of their souls.
But fear not, for Brazilians above everything love the foreign, and everyone is very well received here. That is, in my opinion, the good side of that inferiority complex, the bad side is that since everything is going to fail anyway, many people don’t even try to fix the problems or care that they exists, since it’s hopeless anyway.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:24 am
I’m swedish.
The media is a bit careful, naturally. But still, the general sentiment around these parts is that americans are usually fat, uneducated, and spoiled rotten.
Sorry. But that’s how it is.
Oh, I almost forgot. Americans also run around on top of priceless monuments when they go sight-seeing.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:37 am
Mark Overyon said
‘Yes, I think less of Americans due to creationism.
But.. I am from the UK and we are big on homeopathy as a country here. This makes me ashamed to be British so I know how it feels.’
Well, you’ve raised a valid point, Mark. Though there is a strong rational backlash now underway against the purveyors of magic water (thanks to the likes of badscience.net), snake oil sellers do pretty well in general in the UK, while ill-informed scares like the MMR issue and the idiotic fuss about wi-fi seem to pop up every week.
Being on-topic, I think it is only fair for anyone critting the US (and I have many issues there) to be aware of the problems in their own backyard, and how their country is perceived elsewhere. In our case, in the UK, I feel there is a linkage as most of the British public and likely outsiders have seen the late (unlamented) Blair administration as the United States’ poodle.
But with respect to the US, I heartily endorse others’ comments that individual Americans are fine people, I honestly have never met an American I didn’t get on with. (Of course this is a selective sample, since most of those are Americans who are educated and well-travelled.) Nonetheless, I have always admired certain American qualities like openness and generosity that often seem all too lacking in the UK.
Nonetheless, and relevant to the creationist video that started this, I think that many Brits, and particularly us baby-boomers, feel somewhat let down by what we see of the US in the 21st Century and hanker for a (pre-Nixonian?) US that we admired and in some ways looked up to. Part of that is nostalgia, but there is some truth, I think, that the US was an unrivalled world centre of science, reason, technology - and culture - back then. (The last is important, and still is, crude anti-Americanism ignores the vital contributions the US has made to English literature, the fine arts etc etc).
Now the US seems to outsiders to be hell-bent on destroying all those qualities that once made it great. In the case of creationism, that would be its role as a world centre of reason, science, know-how and common sense (’I'm from Missouri - show me’).
But all of this seems to be due to the religious right - a small minority of the American public. So - and I know that to Americans this is a sacred cow - may there not be something a bit wrong with a democratic constitution that allows the tail to wag the dog in this way? I’m not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the overall idea of checks and balances - we could do with more of that over here (though the idea actually originates in Britain).
I would suggest that something constitutional, particularly in the electoral college system of electing the president, is helping to create the democratic deficit you experience at every national election. Almost every other country has a higher, in most cases far higher, turn-out than the USA at general elections. And this is hugely relevant, because an executive that could rely on a broad mandate from the American people, even if were Republican, would not have to pander to a bunch of backwoods crazies like the creationists.
Sorry, that went on a bit. But I genuinely want the America I once admired back…
February 1st, 2008 at 10:56 am
Captain Apache said: “overall idea of checks and balances - we could do with more of that over here (though the idea actually originates in Britain)”
Huh, British? Roman Republic: One year terms and principle of collegiality, veto rights of tribunes, etc. etc. Though true that the current line of constitutional tradition of those things goes back to the British system and the Roman one died about 27BC, the Romans still had that idea before.
To link that to the topic of the post: When the current US supremacy is linked to ancient Rome, what precisely is meant? Imperial Rome was a military dictatorship, after all.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:19 am
Rivi said:
‘Huh, British? Roman Republic: One year terms and principle of collegiality, veto rights of tribunes, etc. etc. Though true that the current line of constitutional tradition of those things goes back to the British system and the Roman one died about 27BC, the Romans still had that idea before.’
A fair point, Rivi. I should have, as you kindly point out, have referred to the ‘line of constitutional tradition’. It’s a similar situation with common law, though in this case (I’m not a legal expert, happy to be corrected) I believe the lineage runs mostly back to Northern European traditions via the Anglo-Saxons.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:22 am
We are just as crazy here in Canada. Our educators, media people are just as scientifically illiterate as yours and are getting their message out better and faster and attracting more people than are the rationalfolks who think that speaking rationally is enough. It is not.
er
February 1st, 2008 at 12:05 pm
UK person here. I haven’t had time to read over 300 comments (I normally wouldn’t post unless I had) but you asked…
Firstly, I tend to think that Americans generally are *more* sensible than the impression given here. I feel that BA (and Pharyngula, etc) make it seem as if you are wall-to-wall creationists, Hoagland, Pareidolists, etc.
Second, I think the big danger is not (Christian) religiosity, but the way so many Americans seem to have a quasi-religious reverence for the idea of ‘America’. And the way that appeal to the Constitution is regarded as settling a matter (”Last time I read, we have freedom of speech/separation of church and state/right not to incriminate oneself etc. so that makes you wrong”). I think this fuels the natural assumption that people from all countries make that their actions are well-intentioned and good, and makes it harder for Americans to see when they aren’t.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“As a sidenote: notice how many fundamentalist Christians try to get a share of this power by claiming the US was founded as a Christian nation, and that really, being patriottic means being Christian…”
Interesting comment. I live in Texas–a part of the Bible Belt and generally considered a conservative state with a sizable fundamentalist Christian population and I don’t know anyone who even remotely fits that description. And if you’re not going to find them here, it is doubtful you’ll find them anywhere.
I also don’t know anyone who claims the US was founded as a Christian nation. Their argument is the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, which is historically accurate.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“And in the USA where separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution, your politicians never stop talking about it and seem to have to prostrate themselves to the most radical religious people in order to get elected”
Again, another misunderstanding of America. Here, politicians prostrate themselves to ANY group that has more than 2 members. The key is they’ll proclaim their Christian dedication, their commitment to minority rights, their faithfulness to the poor, and their fidelity to anything or anyone else they feel might get them votes–and then once elected, they’ll do what they want. Makes no difference whether Democrat or Republican, we take their campaign promises and rhetoric for what it is—nothing but hot air whose only purpose is to get them elected. After all, we have come to understand, it isn’t like they really meant it when they said it.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
David,
W/respect to: (”Last time I read, we have freedom of speech/separation of church and state/right not to incriminate oneself etc. so that makes you wrong”)
The thing is that, in the US, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights *are* pretty much the final authority these matters. My understanding is that the UK, Canada, etc do not have similar legal protections for individual rights. Thus, if you tell an American that “you guys should make group XYZ shut up,” he/she is not being arrogant, bullheaded, etc by saying “sorry, but we have freedom of speach here.” That’s the way it *is*.
My apologies if this was stating the perfectly obvious to someone who already knew, but I wasn’t quite certain from your post.
February 1st, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Oh, yeah, NBalu, Indians are much more rational and advanced than the stupid Americans.
Let’s see, does the US have… dowry murder? Fake marriages for dowry loot? Lynching of Christians and Muslims by Janata Party mobs? An ongoing live firefight with Pakistan over which side owns a glacier? A powerful Communist movement in one state (Naxalbari zindabad!) and a growing Muslim insurgency in another? We do have a tradition of political assassinations, so we’re like one another in that respect.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Patric said:
Have you forgotten already? They have been trying to get it into legislation. My comment stands.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Please, don’t use a wacko website that sees a Christian theocracy on the horizon and a need to sound the alarm and awaken every Chicken Little as a source. There are wack jobs on the left and on the right. Let’s at least try to keep the conversation based in some kind of reality.
Living in the middle of the Bible Belt, knowing many who identify themselves as fundamentalist Christians, reading many political blogs that attract a great number from all sides of the political landscape–including fundamentalist Christians, and interacting with a large number of well educated education, business and government leaders—some of whom identify themselves as fundamentalist Christians–around the country, I’d say I have a fairly good idea of what’s going on. And, again, I know of none in the mainstream of American society who proclaim if you’re not a Christian you’re unpatriotic nor any that claim that the US was founded as a Christian nation. I stand by my statement.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:44 pm
And don’t forget the stupid Americans who started waving their flags around since 911. Every house , everywhere you see the american flag.
Every bumper sticker - support your troops!
And they don’t seem to understand why the people of the middle east hate them. They think its because they are so free! Yeah, like the people in other parts of the world hate them because their women are free –
The president and the future president nominees keep parroting this stuff. According to these loonies - America was attacked first - all they did was fight back .. - They seem to forget all the bases they have in Germany, Japan Middles East …
February 1st, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Patrick: you speak of reality. Do you deny that HR 888 is real?
And your former president George H.W. Bush has actually said something along the lines that you should be Christian to be considered a patriot:
(See for more context here. Is a former president mainstream enough?
Note that essentially you are making an argument from ignorance: you don’t know of any, so none exist. This is a fallacious argument.
I am happy for you that you live in an area that has a little more common sense though.
February 1st, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Sweden here.
We used to be very pro-America. Now we are getting more and more flabbergasted and even scared of you. It’s not that there aren’t nutters everywhere, but they are not really in such a position of power as the US is in relation to the rest of the world. That’s the scary part.
February 1st, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Beowulf:
I can neither confirm or deny the account on the page you link to. I will note, however, that it would be a lot more convincing if it linked to an objective source. A fair amount of “quotes” that are available on the net are taken out of context, twisted, or just plain made up.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:10 pm
TomInAk: you mean something like this? Or would you like the original source for the quote? But I am going to stop this here, I don’t want to take over the thread.
February 1st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Well done Beowulff, Phil did ask for outsiders’ comments. The thing is that I can understand your frustration…
…Except that if this was about the United Kingdom, you would have UKish people lining up to slag the UK off (particularly since we pulled out of Gemini North) - and from all sides of the political spectrum, many foreign crits of the UK are callow and ill-informed, we can put the knife in to ourselves much more betterer, just ask
Basically someone like you would not be here, ‘cos we don’t really do do patriotism *in that way*.
February 2nd, 2008 at 4:02 am
Hello Phil,
the answer to your question is yes I’m afraid.
Politics aside the US has been seen until recently as progressive albeit a little naive.
Creationism, scientology, silly court cases, flat earthers, moon hoax: it’s not as if there are’nt any nutters over here (Germany that is) but by now it is considered by many Europeans as the the normal background noise of America.
And that is the reason I like your Badastronomy blog for it is a meaningful signal above all that noise.
Raiko, Germany
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:34 am
# Political Plait-ism on 30 Jan 2008 at 9:48 pm ranted :
“Well, Celtic_Evolution or “Dr” Plait, how do you feel about people who fast for Ramadan?”
Erm ..mate, Phil Plait _is_ a Doctor actually - a doctor of astropnomy which _is_ much better than being a mere doctor of theology - If nothing else his field of expertise actually tangibly exists!
PP-ism : “How about those who strap explosives to their chests and kill themselves and innocents in the belief they’re launching themselves into some afterlife? Not self-loathing enough for you? Not avant-garde? Not anti-American?”
Me : Que? Are you saying sucide bombers are pro-American or self-loving?
Oh, sarcasm .. yeah riii-iight. Well how about the misogynist anti-choice activist who murder real live walking talking, helping doctors of medicine in order to preserve a bunch of cells? And what the blazes does this have to do with the original question about creationists making the USA look silly?
PP-ism : “But…we look irreducibly silly because some people here believe in an after-life?”
Well that & the bigger point that they want to teach their school-kids - as “scientific fact” - that the world was made in seven days 4,000 years based on the evidence of a Holy Text written down by Stone Age nomads and contradicting all actual scientific evidence to the contrary. Oh yeah, and that they claim an Invisible Intelligentry Designer whose so silly he gave us appendixes for no good reason and gave us foreskins which he promptly changed his mind about & so commanded *us* to chop off .. and made some of us bigots and nutters and whackos in his divine image and oh yes, is obv. a paranoid schizophrenic being “Allah” to some tribes and “Christ-Father-Holy Spirit” to others and “Yahwah” and “Ganesha” and “Buddha” to still omore tribes and, well, plain non-existent outside thw midns of his followers. Yes - viewed objectively & esp. by non-belevers in whatever faith is being touted, religion with all its various afterlives (hell, heaven, purgatory, limbo, paradise in just the XN version alone) does make its followers look silly.
PP-ism : “Which is more arrogant, those who “know” there is no God, or those who “believe” there is a God without proof?”
Me : The latter - those who “Believe in God without proof” because they are asking others to believe and imposing by force & even pain of death - & if y’believe them fear of eternal torture - based on noproof whears those who know there snoGod havegenerally reached thsoe conclusion through intelligent thinking,. logic and the weight of actual evidence. Evidence - you know, the sorta stuff religion lacks and science is all about …
PP-ism : “Interesting question, no?”
Me : You’re right for once. It is, indeed, not really a very interesting question.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
And, of course, you don’t do anything to distance yourself from such detrimental stereotypes. Plainly and simply, you are a bigot. Like many of my fellow Europeans, you’re probably just jealous of America, and desperately eager to believe your country is superior.
For an uneducated bunch of hicks, American science has been doing surprisingly well these last 60 years! It’s really kind of funny how by most measures their research output matches the rest of the world combined. What bumpkins!
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:45 am
Captain Apache said:
Except that if this was about the United Kingdom, you would have UKish people lining up to slag the UK off (particularly since we pulled out of Gemini North).
And I will NEVER forgive the UK for that. I neither forgive nor forget such things, and that one is a doozy.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
For an uneducated bunch of hicks, American science has been doing surprisingly well these last 60 years! It’s really kind of funny how by most measures their research output matches the rest of the world combined. What bumpkins!
I’d like to see some numbers there. Preferably in a per-head ratio
Remember that Sweden government spending for 60-ish percent of the GDP. I really don’t think that would be practical here. Things like that simply don’t scale up well as far as I can tell.
I am well aware of that
Good chocolates, though.
Are you sure you don’t mean Switzerland there?
February 4th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Stevo writes:
[[ Yes - viewed objectively & esp. by non-belevers in whatever faith is being touted, religion with all its various afterlives (hell, heaven, purgatory, limbo, paradise in just the XN version alone) does make its followers look silly. ]]
Silliness is in the eye of the beholder. To theists, denying God looks silly (”The fool has said in his heart, There is no God”).
February 4th, 2008 at 9:59 am
However, I have to point out that by doing this, they are actually confirming one other very common stereotype about Americans: Americans dogmatically believe their country is the Greatest Country In The World.
Bull****. We’re puncturing bigoted stereotypes of which this is just another one. The tactic you8 are using here is the same used by Bill O’Reilly.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:49 am
[quote]I’m swedish.
The media is a bit careful, naturally. But still, the general sentiment around these parts is that americans are usually fat, uneducated, and spoiled rotten.
Sorry. But that’s how it is.
And, of course, you don’t do anything to distance yourself from such detrimental stereotypes. Plainly and simply, you are a bigot. Like many of my fellow Europeans, you’re probably just jealous of America, and desperately eager to believe your country is superior.
[/quote]
Hey, er, dood, are you forgetting something?
Like:
[quote]If you are a citizen of some other country, then please leave a comment. What are your thoughts? Do your news outlets, magazines, radio, and other media portray us as fringe lunatics? Our own media here are irritatingly isolationist, making it hard to get a sense of what the rest of the world actually thinks.
Here’s your chance. This will be a biased sample, of course, but let’s hear it. How does your country view America?
[/quote]
February 4th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
The re-election of Bush was a surprise for me, and it can’t simply be that only a small fraction of americans are fringe lunatics, it has to be a big portion. I didn’t think it would be possible for THAT many people to be THAT stupid.
But I dont’t think it has that done much to change the people’s opinions of the US, since most people here are also very religions and quite open to homeopathy, acupuncture, and all sorts of woo. What’s even more scary, is that a big portion of the population (including well educated people) does not even know that these are controversial and non-scientific therapies. It’s simply not an issue. Oh the humanity!
The funny thing is that the actions of the US government probably affect me more than my own government. I played poker professionaly for a few months, than a bill passed that banned american players from playing, and this cut my earnings substantialy. Now my company receives payments from american companies in dollars, and the dolar is falling like a stalled plane.
I always felt more close to the cultures of the US and Europe than of Brazil’s; I’d like for instance to be able to buy a box of Settlers of Catan, or other adult board games; I’d like to use somewhere around 10-30% of my monthly wages to buy a PlayStation 3, instead of using the exact same amount to buy a PlayStation 2! I’d like to talk to people who have any idea who Carl Sagan was.
I am thinking about leaving to work abroad for a few years, but I have to admit: I’m not so inclined to go to the US, for no reason other that there just seems to be way to much religion, woo, and fringe lunatics in there for my taste.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:58 am
hmm, went on a bit there. sorry.
shoud learn to be more pithy, like Marcus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-szubinmBU&feature=related
February 5th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Eliza –
Yes, it’s an article of faith here among right-wingers that “the media has too much liberal bias.” This despite talk radio being crowded with wall-to-wall crazy right-wingers (Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, etc.), Fox News reporting pseudoscience if it supports right-wing causes, and the owners of media companies being, of course, very very rich people, many of them noticeably right-wing (e.g. Rupert Murdoch).
February 8th, 2008 at 3:01 am
I’m an American, and this scares me. I don’t like what we’re becoming and what we represent. I’d like to believe that it’s just a few bad apples, but I know better.
The fact that such a museum even exists is a testament to how backwards we have become.
There is a progressive, secular, repsectful America. Many of us are against the death penalty, and for universal healthcare (although perhaps nto how it is implemented elsewhere). Many of us respect diplomacy over war. Many of us respect (and perhaps even admire) our European friends.
The bottom line is that this America is at risk, right now. I can only hope that the world doesn’t fall into the kind of religious extremism that seems to be so prevalent in my country right now. Even if that means a world without the US.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
And Richard Dawkins is not crazy? How can someone who would rather believe that aliens started life on earth than god not be deemed crazy - but worshiped as a demi-god in intellectual circles? Whether you believe in god or not is not my concern.
But does it not strike you that someone who would rather believe that ET created life and vehemently deny the existence of (a) god is just trying to escape something?
Also, It would seem that many forget that “Creationism” is neither an American invention nor solely an American belief. Simply because Americans are allowed to voice opinions and debate more freely than we in the elitist EU, we mistake their freedom of opinion for idiocy and European science’s sheep-like behaviour as established intelligence.
Yes US foreign policy also differs to the EUs, but then again the EU is a joke in this field. Most (not all) European members of the LEGAL war in Afghanistan refuse to be sent to trouble zones. European troops watched in lethargy as thousands were massacred in Srebrenica. Now a few troops are thrown into Chad 100km from those they’re designated to protect (and 700km from the nearest large airfield) as a token to show people that we’re “serious” about Darfur.
The US is not perfect, but get off your high horses please.
Stephen - Ireland
March 9th, 2008 at 3:29 am
No, it’s not just creationists that make the world think Americans are crazy, but, they are a significant cog in the machinery of American laughability.
Your nation has all sorts of contradictions. The US is allegedly a great democracy — yet merely having a semi popular third party candidate is enough to throw it out of whack.
Any sensible democracy would at least have Preferential Voting (the votes for the candidate with the least votes are distributed according to the voter’s second preference… and so on until one candidate has over 50% of the vote).
Australia’s system of requiring people to turn up to a polling place on election day (or face a small fine) has also been a good one. It means the parties can’t discourage particular demographics from turning out, and there’s never an excuse for long queues or form shortages as the numbers are always a known. I’ll also mention paper ballots (to help combat fraud) and our election results are generally known on election night. That’s the benefit of having a professionally run federal electoral commission.
From the outside, the US presidential election candidate selection process looks like a corruption competition (who can earn the most donations) and the election itself is a rorting competition. The wealth and power of the creationist extreme Right needs to be seen in the context of where it fits into that mess, not just how silly it makes Americans look once in a while.
March 10th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Isn’t Answers in Genesis from Australia? And the Creation Ministries International? It would seem that wherever true freedom of speech is, differing opinions emerge and flourish - how dastardly!
“The wealth and power of the creationist extreme Right” what a ridiculous statement. Demonising someone for differing opinions is something that shouldn’t happen in a democratic society, yet ironically this is where it would seem most prevalent.
How is the opposite not true in other cases? Why right on this very page there are people who believe in Evolution who want Creationism censored. There’s even a move in the European Council to try and ban Creationism altogether - a move one could easily label as fueled by “the wealth and power of the evolutionary left”.
The EU is much worse than the US for elitism. Treaties that change the political dynamic and affect national sovereignty are not even debated publicly. Only certain countries (read: Ireland) will allow their public to even vote on them.
Yes Australia does have a good system. But one must remember that the United States is a confederation of 50 sovereign commonwealths and states and a handful of territories - not a single state. The system could use a tweaking, but it is set up so that there is a better spread of power among all the states rather than just the biggest 5 - which is what the EU is shaping up to be.
March 10th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Hi all,
I am a college student at the University of Chicago (but I’m originally from western Massachusetts) and I am truly saddened by this thread. I was shocked when I saw the Creationism Museum video. Having spent a few months abroad (in China), I understand that the United States’ image has many important implications for the world, but also that many stereotypes of America are far from accurate. I have personally never met someone who does not believe in evolution or natural selection - at my high school, we spent at least 2 weeks on these concepts in biology and “intelligent design” was never mentioned.
From my limited experience, I think that the evolution debate divide in the US is largely regional. Most of the Christian fundamentalists are concentrated in the “deep south” (the southeast) and the middle of the country, whereas the northeast, northern midwest, and west coast tend to be more liberal both with politics, and, apparently, scientific thought. Call me a northern elitist, but that’s what I’ve noticed. I am also an atheist, but most of my friends are either atheist or agnostic, and those who are religious still believe in science, to say the least. I think this image of science-denying Americans is largely stereotypical, brought on by the media, and I highly doubt that 50% of Americans deny evolution. That’s simply absurd.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:36 am
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/21329204.html
The above link is to a study published in National Geographic News.
An interesting point is that while many of the countries studied have a majority who accept evolution as true, only 4 (Iceland, France, Sweden, Denmark) have over 80% of their population who accept it as true.
This flies in the face of the claim that “Creationism hardly exists outside the States”.
June 28th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
From down under.
It does worrying that it seems American matches the fanaticism of middle eastern countries in terms of believing blindly in their religion.
Silly? maybe not.
But remembering how such big nation with so much (military/political) power believing something without any sort of questioning is so frightening.