So I’m looking over my sitemeter and see a hit coming in from YouTube. I click the link, and see that someone has taken an excerpt of the debate I had with Joe Rogan on Penn Radio about the Moon hoax and made a video of it. Cool!
I already wrote my thoughts on the debate here, here, and here. This came up at TAM 5.5, and some folks were laying blame on Penn for not reeling in Rogan, who was using some relatively unfair tactics (shouting me down, interrupting, and so on) during the show. I don’t think Penn is to blame; it would have been nice to have someone jump in, but it was my responsibility to slap back at Rogan, not Penn’s.
I learned a lot during those two shows, and while I don’t think I’ll be more of a jerk when I debate people, I’ll make sure I’m more assertive, and not let my opponent run roughshod over me. I don’t know when I’ll be in tht position again, but hey, practice makes perfect.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:40 pm
As a debating technique in Tibetan Bhudism, when a debate turns noisy and rancourous, the monk claps his hands quite loud. It’s called “scareing away the demons” but I have used it to gain peoples attention in such a situation and it works quite well. Just never let them know WHY you’re doing it,,,
Gary 7
January 31st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Hey Phil, you should talk to PZ. He just handed a creationist his posterior in a brilliant debate, that took place in a Christian station no less! It was a masterful takedown, perhaps you guys can compare notes, and learn from each other. Yes, I realize he’s your nemesis
, but hey, it’s for a good cause right? 
January 31st, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Rogan is loud, and I think that is why he is overwhelming. I don’t agree with what he was saying but at least he didn’t get into the ignorant personal attacks that some of the hoaxers get into.
I loved his comment about “Why is it a Federal crime to possess Moon rocks?”
Dr. Phil’s response, “Because there’s only 800 lbs of them, and it cost 35 billion dollars to collect them.” Classic.
BTW, what happened to Fear Factor?
January 31st, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Just tried a post but it got flagged.
Anyway, what I said was that Rogan was loud, but at least he didn’t resort to name calling and personal attacks like some hoaxers do. I loved the exchange where Rogan asks why it’s a Federal Offence to own Moon rocks?”
Dr. Phil’s response, “There’s only 800 lbs of them, and it cost 35 Billion to collect them.” I laughed pretty hard at that. Captain Obvious to Rogan, come in.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:22 pm
There’s also a podcast called Conspiract Skeptic that recently did a moon hoax episode and spent quite a bit of time debunking some of the claims that Rogan was rattling off
January 31st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Oddly enough, that debate was my introduction to the Bad Astronomer. I thought you handled yourself so well that I took the time to look you up online the next day. So I can say there’s at least ONE person who reads your blog daily (multiple times) and has bought your book because of that particular debate on Penn’s show.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
More ammunition for future debates:
It seems that the first 2/3 of that excerpt centered on von Braun in Antarctica and why he was there (to collect meteorites to be used as fake moon rocks). Rogan asked “Why would you send your head guy to Antarctica in the middle of the space race?”
Here’s why he could go: von Braun was not in charge of Apollo. He was in charge of development of the Saturn boosters, and the Saturn V was pretty much ready to roll by the time he went to Antarctica. While critically important to the overall success of Apollo, he was not needed that much in day-to-day operations. Believe it or not, they still got vacations during that time!
- Jack
January 31st, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Joe Rogan should stick to Fear Factor and the UFC, he is way over his head in Astronomy.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Wow, Joe Rogan is a complete moron.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Jack, no, no, the reason he went to Antarctica was to visit the secret German bases! *rolls Eyes*
January 31st, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Hi Phil, I love your blog and your unbounded enthusiasm for science. On the moon landing hoax theory: do we really care whether certain people choose to believe the moon landing was an elaborate, evil government perpetrated hoax? I mean, who cares if some people choose to believe we didn’t land on the moon? The fact that we built – and launched – the Saturn V, the most powerful rocket to date, what does that matter? The fact that we could point our most powerful telescopes at the moon – right now – and actually see the junk we left on the surface of the moon (we could, couldn’t we?), what does that matter? The fact that we spent billions upon billions of dollars to land people on the moon – which we did – and then to argue that we spent billions upon billion to fool people into believing that we landed people on the moon, as if that would somehow be a productive way to improve the image of the USA and divert attention away from our involvement in Viet Nam, what would that matter? The simple fact is, people who don’t believe we landed on the moon are psycho. Facts is facts. I say use hard-core sarcasim and humor to beat’em back.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Andy,
No, it’s not currently possible to see the Apollo hardware with Earth-based instruments. It’s far beyond the resolving power of any telescope in existence.
But you’re quite right about the Saturn 5. It was built, it was launched, and it did have the capacity to deliver an Apollo-mass payload to the Moon. With that fact alone it becomes silly to insist that it was all faked.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:18 pm
My question is this. Why is it so easy to see the Mars rovers from satellites orbiting Mars? You can even see the tire tracks of the rovers in the Martian ground. I have never seen an image of the lunar rovers from our satellites orbiting the moon despite the fact that the lunar rovers left behind are several times the size of the Mars rovers. It was claimed the Smart lunar orbiting satellite would end the debate once and for all when it photographed the lunar landing sites. nothing can be seen from the images from the Smart satellite. Next the Japanese orbiter which was just lauched was also supposed to prove once and for all the moon landings were real with its superior camera system that would show the lunar rovers clearly. But wait, the Selene web sight now says the camera system is not good enough to show the landing sights. What’s going on? I really think the question of whether we actually landed on the moon is a legitimate one.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Ehhhh, Michael Amato, we have no satellites orbiting the moon.
Game over.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I can’t remember if it was as a result of the debate on PennRadio or one of the interview segments on the Skeptics’ Guide that I found Bad Astronomy, but I’d be willing to be the former. The annoying thing about that debate, at least to me, was not that Penn wasn’t jumping on Rogan for his repeated fallacies (I did get a little annoyed when he kept harping on the Werner Von Braun thing and thought “Come on. This is on the radio, a respected forum for the broadcast of thoughts and opinions that’s been around for a long, long time. This is not the internets. Godwin’s law should not have to be invoked here.”) What annoyed me about the way that it was moderated was that it sounded like Penn was starting to be swayed by the emotion and delivery of Rogan’s arguments over those pesky fact and logic based arguments you kept interjecting with. I know he wasn’t, but it just seemed like he was hyping Rogan up.
The whole thing was sort of a lesson in how easy it is to appear to be winning a debate by being loud and throwing out so many inaccuracies and bizarre statements that your opponent can’t get to them all.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:43 pm
I remember this when it was originally broadcast. Phil, you said, “you don’t have to be crazy to believe in the moon hoax”.
While that statement is strictly true, Joe Rogan is indeed, crazy. Or perhaps more properly, is just not very smart.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:46 pm
…and another thing, I can’t stand listening to amateurs arguing about engineering “impossibilities”. I have been in hi tech engineering for 15 years, and nothing makes me insanely crazier than a stand up comedian arguing about how hard it is to engineer something. He’s qualified to comment on it… why?
grrr….
January 31st, 2008 at 11:00 pm
There are now a couple of satellites on orbit with the Moon (from China & Japan), and there have been others within the last few years (from Japan & the U.S.). But- the difference is one of the camera technology in them vs the one aboard the Mars orbiter in question, as well as altitude. There are in fact several Mars orbiters currently working, but not all of them can resolve the rovers and their tracks. One orbiter in particular is equipped with a very high-res camera, and has a rather low-altitude orbit.
Neither of the lunar probes now working has anywhere near the resolving power for the Apollo hardware; in fact, the Japanese satellite’s camera isn’t even one of the scientific instruments. It’s a camera with fewer megapixels than many consumer-grade cameras, and its role is mainly to garner public interest. All the real research is being done with various other kinds of instruments.
It should also be stressed that NO lunar probes are for the purpose of verifying (once and for all) the Apollo landing sites. They are for serious research into the the physical nature of the Moon.
And: Why would anyone with the real capability to deliver payloads to the Moon think that Apollo was faked? Putting their own probes near the Moon tells them that it’s possible to do so.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:45 pm
joe rogan came off sounding incredibly rude. he almost reminds me of jason bermas (of loose change fame)….say enough crazy things in succession so the other guy can’t possibly address them all. you did an admiral job debating someone who doesn’t really understand the etiquette of debate.
February 1st, 2008 at 2:25 am
Sespetoxri and Murphy, that’s very cool. Thanks!
February 1st, 2008 at 3:32 am
Mark Martin on 31 Jan 2008 at 11:00 pm
“There are now a couple of satellites on orbit with the Moon (from China & Japan), and there have been others within the last few years (from Japan & the U.S.).”
…and Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart-1
Michael Lonergan on 31 Jan 2008 at 6:15 pm
“Just tried a post but it got flagged.
”
All mine seem to get flagged, even when there aren’t any links. Don’t know why. .uk email address?
February 1st, 2008 at 5:02 am
Who listens to Joe Rogan anyways? Folks who can’t afford or understand Howard Stern?
Rogan had a bit part playing an a$$h0le on an otherwise good show. No surprise that he was most often paired off against Andy Dick, a similarly talentless hack. He took a tongue-in-cheek Man Show and turned it into a very unfunny misogynist disaster.
And, the final nail in the “Joe Rogan is a moron” coffin is his “thoughts” on the moon landing hoax. What a tool.
February 1st, 2008 at 5:51 am
Hi Phil:
I’ve been reading you for a bunch of years now and every day it’s still good! I preach your blog to anyone who will listen! I just rolled into work and read your comments about “wind storm” and then the video of that talk show and listened pretty much thru the whole excerpt. Listen bud, you did well. You were logical, clear, and those who were genuinely listening with the frontal lobe would have heard that. Rest easy. Advice: you can’t out-bazoo a bazoo, for they will shout, impugn, imply, roll over, snipe, foul-mouth, lie etc. etc. the best brains on this blue ball. For their motive is greed, moola, money, profit, dough. I think the best thing to do is exactly what you did: state the case, be clear, do the best you can and let the discerning listener do the rest. Discerning listeners can… discern! After all, you’ll also never convince the doofusses in the world because…they are doofusses! Phil, I am proud of you because you didn’t try to to out bazzo that guy. Keep on doing what you do best, which is what you do. I am sure all your readers and any intelligent discerning person is proud of you as well.
Kind regards,
Michael
February 1st, 2008 at 9:56 am
As to the “just photograph the landing sites to prove that we went there” comments…
Umm… We already photographed the landing sites — while we were there.
What makes you think that someone who believes we spent billions of dollars to fake the whole thing (including all of the photos) would believe new photos?
February 1st, 2008 at 10:16 am
What was annoying about the whole thing is how Rogan holds Phil and himself to different standards. He expects Phil to prove that von Braun wasn’t collecting moon rocks in Antartica, prove that moon rocks weren’t picked up by unmanned craft. Then he just falls back on the “I’m just asking questions.” Even though he won’t accept any answers.
Also, if you say “I don’t know”, he scores that as a hit for his side. He’s not interested in finding the truth. He’s just interested in racking up points.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:22 am
Hey, Phil:
I listened to both of the Penn Radio moon hoax debates via podcast last year. IIRC, Rogan was on the phone for the first debate and was in the studio with Penn for the second. I *do* take issue with how Penn handled that second debate.
I’ve always wondered if Penn let himself get intimidated by Rogan’s presence. Penn definitely loves show business and celebrities, and doesn’t strike me as an overly aggressive guy. Rogan is extremely outgoing and seems like he’s always on the prowl for the next barfight.
Admittedly this is all conjecture on my part. Still, as moderator he should have called Rogan out on some of the crazier stuff.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:34 am
Eddie the Japanese satellite is orbiting the moon right now. Game over.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Eddie the Japanese satellite? That’s an odd name for a probe.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
February 1st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Andy Hunter said:
> The simple fact is, people who don’t believe we landed on the moon are psycho. Facts is facts. I say use hard-core sarcasim and humor to beat’em back.
Incorrect assessment. There are some proponents of the Moon Landing Hoax that are seriously deluded into thinking they know better than the rest of the world. There are also a number who are dishonest about their beliefs to serve a purpose. Categorizing which is which takes a lot of insight and information. However, the vast majority of people who express doubt about the moon landings are not outright proponents, they are everyday people mislead by some inaccurate presentations of technical topics, combined with some psychology of outsmarting the experts. You don’t reach them by berating them, you explain what they misunderstand and why.
As for Rogan, he appears to me to be rabid anti-big government conspiracist hack. The Moon Landing Hoax is just a subset of his true beef, the Evil Government is out to lie and mislead and control us little people.
If one didn’t know his expressed views on other topics, one might argue that he is just denying the Moon Landings as part of an attention-getting ploy, part of his routine. If so, one would be accusing him of being a hack comedian ripping off Andy Kauffman.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ed Davieson said:
“…and Europe.”
Oh yes. I’d forgotten that one. Good call.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Ken B says: “We already photographed the landing sites — while we were there. What makes you think that someone who believes we spent billions of dollars to fake the whole thing (including all of the photos) would believe new photos?”
The same thing that made those of us who were around during the time of Apollo believe that it was real. After all, I never saw an Apollo mission launch. I never saw any of the hardware until years afterward, yet I never for a microsecond thought it was fake.
Even the HB’s (most of them, anyway)believe that space travel is real for unmanned craft. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of subliminal social cues that verify that what they hear and see through the various media is real. The announcements of unmanned missions are fed at very low levels over very long times. It passes the test of verisimilitude (look it up). They have no reason to believe they don’t exist.
However, at a distance of some four decades, none of that exists. All you see is the historical record that compresses the decade of Apollo into all the same flat sheet. It’s easy to dismiss anything that you don’t want to see or hear, and concentrate only on those things that support your preconceptions.
Short version, “it was impossible then, but not impossible now because my generation is doing it.”
- Jack
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:10 pm
“it was impossible then, but not impossible now because my generation is doing it.”
Somewhat like each generation tacitly thinking that they invented casual sex, mistrust of “The Establishment”, etc.
March 20th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Alas, I discovered Penn’s radio show after it was off the air, and I’m only just now listening through an archive of the podcasts. So, that’s what brings me to BAD ASTRONOMY. Leaving aside Rogan’s demeanor and Von Braun’s politics, I was particularly interested in one thing, the rocks. Isn’t there a fundamental difference between Apollo’s samples from the moon, and any Lunar material that might be lying around on Earth, in this case Antarctica. Is it not the case that the rocks brought back by the Apollo missions are demonstrably products from a vacuum environment, while any Lunar material gathered on Earth would display obvious effects of exposure to the atmosphere, centuries of wind, rain, and so on? This has been my understanding, am I mistaken?
And I think you presented yourself well. “Debating” conspiracy theorists is only any fun, and potentially successful, if your intention is to demolish their arguments, while simultaneously demoralizing and humiliating them personally. This is a fiendishly difficult thing to do, if you are trying to be polite. (It can be done though, I refer you to James Randi, who has a long string of outstandingly polite victories to his credit.)
November 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
[...] figure indeed. Joe Rogan, the topic of that article, is certainly intelligent. But even smart people can fool themselves. I have to say, though, that the philosophy he espouses in the article makes some sense… [...]
November 10th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
A bit off-topic, but I feel like addressing the ‘800lb/$35bil’ response.
My initial reaction was, ‘So? If they want to pay over $43 750 000 (mark-up for profit!) for a pound of moon rocks, let them.’
But then I realised a better reason not to: the US doesn’t have mining rights to the Moon. We can take bits and pieces for scientific purposes, but to start auctioning off parts of the Moon is very wrong, and opens up the entire Moon for auction by foreign powers.
November 10th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
@Kingfish
You are right that the moon rocks are fundamentally different.
The short answer is all terrestrial rocks contain water. The moon rocks contain none.
Over at the original Badass-Tronomy site in the “Moon Hoax” section you’ll find a fuller explanation as well as links to all the details of why the moon rocks just ain’t from around here.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:34 am
I’m not a scientist so I could be wrong about this but isn’t it relatively easy to locate an objects location in three dimensional space by triangulating it’s radio signal? Why do I never see that argument brought up, of have I missed it? If this is the case then every notion monitoring the craft would be screaming bloody murder if craft wasn’t where it was supposed to be.
But then I do forget the “facts:” They were all in on it, even the nations we were trying to “fool,” and there really was no craft since it was all filmed at a studio in Huston or area 51. lol
November 13th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
What really bothers me is how prevalent this belief is. I have met people who looked at me like I was crazy for believing the landings were real (as if it’s a matter of “belief”), after I looked at them like THEY were crazy for believing that it was a hoax. It’s ridiculous.
Rogan, by the way, is no philosopher. He’s just very well versed in BSing. He has put himself on this all-knowing pedestal because of his few times doing DMT (and who knows what else) with Doug Stanhope. Doug described it as feeling like you suddenly know everything (paraphrasing), well I guess Mr. Rogan never let go of that belief. Look at some other DMT heads like Terence McKenna.. that guy was a magnificent talker and could at times make you feel like history really will end in 2012, with a giant UFO in the sky brought on by the Gaian mind.
IMO Rogan should just go back to commenting on greased baboons slapping each other around the caged hexagon and leave science to rational people.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:07 am
This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.
???????