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	<title>Comments on: Another addition for your skeptic toolkit</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dr. Trintignant</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72630</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Trintignant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72630</guid>
		<description>I think people have missed the core of my argument, which is that of *ambiguity*.

TheBlackCat--you mentioned the illusion where a patch of color in shadow appears different than one in light, even if they are actually the same color.  You're probably thinking of that illusion with a cylinder over a checkerboard, and it appears that a dark square is darker than a light square in shadow.  So does that represent a mistake or not?

Imagine that we've constructed that scene in real life, but in two different ways.  In the first way, it's as you might expect--you have a light source off to one side, and the cylinder therefore casts a shadow.  The dark square is legitimately darker than the light square in terms of pigment.

In the other case, though, the actual lighting environment is completely even (like an overcast day).  What appears to be a shadow has actually been manually colored in where the shadow would have been.  The two squares have been painted the exact same color value.

Perceptually--that is, given the limitations of our eyes--these two scenes are completely identical. If it's been constructed accurately, there is simply no way for us to distinguish between the two cases, even in principle, unless you add additional sensory inputs.

So our brains need to make a judgment call based on what is more likely--that the shadow comes from an offset light source, or that the shadow was inserted manually and has nothing to do with the light.

Clearly, the former is going to be more frequent.  So that's the prediction our brains make.  And it's the right decision, even with the existence of constructed illusions, because there is no negative survival value with misinterpreting these illusions, while there is indeed negative survival value with misinterpreting real-world scenarios.

Now, I'll certainly grant that there are illusions that don't fall into this category.  The optic nerve thing is certainly a fault in our visual system (although our brains still deal with it in an impressive way).  But I'd argue that most things that are called illusions are really instances of our brains making the correct (and by "correct" I mean the most likely) prediction in the face of ambiguity, and that this ambiguity is unavoidable.

PS: It's true that nowhere in the definition of "illusion" does it say "flaw", which is why I said "implies".  The problem is that it's not our vision system that's fooling us; it's reality itself (a constructed reality in the case of many illusions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people have missed the core of my argument, which is that of *ambiguity*.</p>
<p>TheBlackCat&#8211;you mentioned the illusion where a patch of color in shadow appears different than one in light, even if they are actually the same color.  You&#8217;re probably thinking of that illusion with a cylinder over a checkerboard, and it appears that a dark square is darker than a light square in shadow.  So does that represent a mistake or not?</p>
<p>Imagine that we&#8217;ve constructed that scene in real life, but in two different ways.  In the first way, it&#8217;s as you might expect&#8211;you have a light source off to one side, and the cylinder therefore casts a shadow.  The dark square is legitimately darker than the light square in terms of pigment.</p>
<p>In the other case, though, the actual lighting environment is completely even (like an overcast day).  What appears to be a shadow has actually been manually colored in where the shadow would have been.  The two squares have been painted the exact same color value.</p>
<p>Perceptually&#8211;that is, given the limitations of our eyes&#8211;these two scenes are completely identical. If it&#8217;s been constructed accurately, there is simply no way for us to distinguish between the two cases, even in principle, unless you add additional sensory inputs.</p>
<p>So our brains need to make a judgment call based on what is more likely&#8211;that the shadow comes from an offset light source, or that the shadow was inserted manually and has nothing to do with the light.</p>
<p>Clearly, the former is going to be more frequent.  So that&#8217;s the prediction our brains make.  And it&#8217;s the right decision, even with the existence of constructed illusions, because there is no negative survival value with misinterpreting these illusions, while there is indeed negative survival value with misinterpreting real-world scenarios.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;ll certainly grant that there are illusions that don&#8217;t fall into this category.  The optic nerve thing is certainly a fault in our visual system (although our brains still deal with it in an impressive way).  But I&#8217;d argue that most things that are called illusions are really instances of our brains making the correct (and by &#8220;correct&#8221; I mean the most likely) prediction in the face of ambiguity, and that this ambiguity is unavoidable.</p>
<p>PS: It&#8217;s true that nowhere in the definition of &#8220;illusion&#8221; does it say &#8220;flaw&#8221;, which is why I said &#8220;implies&#8221;.  The problem is that it&#8217;s not our vision system that&#8217;s fooling us; it&#8217;s reality itself (a constructed reality in the case of many illusions).</p>
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		<title>By: Rhett Baldwin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72629</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhett Baldwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72629</guid>
		<description>One day I was visiting my family I was in the barn with my mother, we hear a noise coming from the eves of the barn on the side of the chicken house. The eves of the barn are open and overhang the roof of the chicken house next door.  We both look up towards the top of the wall and there appears to be a snake peering over the wall into the barn, flicking it's tongue in the air.  We both go outside around the barn to the side of the chicken house.   On the roof of the chicken house is one of the cats.   We both agreed that we saw a snake, down to the detail of the flicking tongue, However since the cat wouldn't be laying so peacefully near a snake our only recourse is to believe that there never was a snake no matter what we saw. (And that is what science is about, we hypothesized that we saw a snake, we tested our snake theory by moving outside and around to get a better look, and then based on evidence we hypothesized there there never was a snake. So far this theory stands.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One day I was visiting my family I was in the barn with my mother, we hear a noise coming from the eves of the barn on the side of the chicken house. The eves of the barn are open and overhang the roof of the chicken house next door.  We both look up towards the top of the wall and there appears to be a snake peering over the wall into the barn, flicking it&#8217;s tongue in the air.  We both go outside around the barn to the side of the chicken house.   On the roof of the chicken house is one of the cats.   We both agreed that we saw a snake, down to the detail of the flicking tongue, However since the cat wouldn&#8217;t be laying so peacefully near a snake our only recourse is to believe that there never was a snake no matter what we saw. (And that is what science is about, we hypothesized that we saw a snake, we tested our snake theory by moving outside and around to get a better look, and then based on evidence we hypothesized there there never was a snake. So far this theory stands.)</p>
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		<title>By: DenverAstro</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72628</link>
		<dc:creator>DenverAstro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72628</guid>
		<description>This might be painfully obvious but noone else has said it; isn't this the exact thing that led Percival Lowell to believe that there were canals on Mars? His mind assuming there to be specific shapes where there really were none? Or am I totaly messed up here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This might be painfully obvious but noone else has said it; isn&#8217;t this the exact thing that led Percival Lowell to believe that there were canals on Mars? His mind assuming there to be specific shapes where there really were none? Or am I totaly messed up here?</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Mattison</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72627</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Mattison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72627</guid>
		<description>Quiet_Desperation wrote:
&lt;i&gt;It sounds like synesthesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, it does, but only in pitch black.  During normal light conditions, I do not see colors or see the location from where a sound comes from depicted through colors.  When a loud noise happens, I hear it and turn towards it to see it, but do not see any colors associated with the noise. I certainly do not experience other elements of synesthesia -- I have met someone before who had it and said that he would see colors and shapes often when certain words were uttered, but I certainly don't have anything like that.

It appears though, at least from this wikipedia entry, that there are folks researching how the brain mixes the senses, and maybe this is just an artifact of the brain compensating for the loss of one of its senses (sight) by teaming it with another one (sound).  I'd be interested to know if others have had the same experience.  I probably should start by talking to a few blind people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quiet_Desperation wrote:<br />
<i>It sounds like synesthesia.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia</a></i></p>
<p>Yes, it does, but only in pitch black.  During normal light conditions, I do not see colors or see the location from where a sound comes from depicted through colors.  When a loud noise happens, I hear it and turn towards it to see it, but do not see any colors associated with the noise. I certainly do not experience other elements of synesthesia &#8212; I have met someone before who had it and said that he would see colors and shapes often when certain words were uttered, but I certainly don&#8217;t have anything like that.</p>
<p>It appears though, at least from this wikipedia entry, that there are folks researching how the brain mixes the senses, and maybe this is just an artifact of the brain compensating for the loss of one of its senses (sight) by teaming it with another one (sound).  I&#8217;d be interested to know if others have had the same experience.  I probably should start by talking to a few blind people.</p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72626</link>
		<dc:creator>DAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72626</guid>
		<description>Hmmm ... sounds like a decent hypothesis but I think he went about it the wrong way. 1) It presupposes that enough young stars would form to have a recognizable circle and 2) the stars would all form at the same time.  #2 might not be all that unreasonable but #1 is pushing it.  I can see eyeballing it to try to cut down the search time but he might just have tried looking at random stars surrounding an event to see if stars of similar age could be found  lying close to a circle around it. He would have needed more than one supernova event to prove anything, perhaps a lot. I have no idea how time consuming that would be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm &#8230; sounds like a decent hypothesis but I think he went about it the wrong way. 1) It presupposes that enough young stars would form to have a recognizable circle and 2) the stars would all form at the same time.  #2 might not be all that unreasonable but #1 is pushing it.  I can see eyeballing it to try to cut down the search time but he might just have tried looking at random stars surrounding an event to see if stars of similar age could be found  lying close to a circle around it. He would have needed more than one supernova event to prove anything, perhaps a lot. I have no idea how time consuming that would be.</p>
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		<title>By: SkepticTim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72625</link>
		<dc:creator>SkepticTim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72625</guid>
		<description>Phil: your comment "...a vague or faint background allows our brains to fill in the blanks more readily..." Sometimes the background need not be faint or vague: just random.  A fellow graduate student encountered this problem during his first attempt at selecting a topic for his master’s thesis (some forty years ago).  A recent (then) paper had suggested that the expanding shock wave from supernovas (and perhaps even novas) caused interstellar plasma to collapse, thus leading to star formation in spherical shells about the supernova event. These shells, it was hypothesized should be visible as circular patterns of stars in which all of the stars were of the same age. My colleague decided to test the hypothesis by locating all circular patterns of stars within a given sector of the sky from available star maps made from photographic plates, and statistically evaluating the number of circular star patterns that contained stars of similar age and then comparing them to the number with differing ages - a not unreasonable test.

Supposedly, if the mechanism proposed was real, then there should be a surplus of stars in circles that had similar formation times. He occasionally elicited the help of his fellow grad students in identifying circles of stars.

It is truly amazing how many circles one sees in an essentially random background of stars in any arbitrary area of the sky: it is also amazing how seldom one maps the same pattern of circles on the same plate (unknowingly) when it is mapped on different days! Even though committed to the original hypothesis, my colleague had to eventually admit defeat and select another thesis topic.

I suppose this is an example where skepticism should be practiced with the same zeal when considering things scientific as it should be with things metaphysical.  "That upon which you dwell with the most satisfaction, hold most in suspicion." (Needs attribution but I can't remember the original source!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil: your comment &#8220;&#8230;a vague or faint background allows our brains to fill in the blanks more readily&#8230;&#8221; Sometimes the background need not be faint or vague: just random.  A fellow graduate student encountered this problem during his first attempt at selecting a topic for his master’s thesis (some forty years ago).  A recent (then) paper had suggested that the expanding shock wave from supernovas (and perhaps even novas) caused interstellar plasma to collapse, thus leading to star formation in spherical shells about the supernova event. These shells, it was hypothesized should be visible as circular patterns of stars in which all of the stars were of the same age. My colleague decided to test the hypothesis by locating all circular patterns of stars within a given sector of the sky from available star maps made from photographic plates, and statistically evaluating the number of circular star patterns that contained stars of similar age and then comparing them to the number with differing ages - a not unreasonable test.</p>
<p>Supposedly, if the mechanism proposed was real, then there should be a surplus of stars in circles that had similar formation times. He occasionally elicited the help of his fellow grad students in identifying circles of stars.</p>
<p>It is truly amazing how many circles one sees in an essentially random background of stars in any arbitrary area of the sky: it is also amazing how seldom one maps the same pattern of circles on the same plate (unknowingly) when it is mapped on different days! Even though committed to the original hypothesis, my colleague had to eventually admit defeat and select another thesis topic.</p>
<p>I suppose this is an example where skepticism should be practiced with the same zeal when considering things scientific as it should be with things metaphysical.  &#8220;That upon which you dwell with the most satisfaction, hold most in suspicion.&#8221; (Needs attribution but I can&#8217;t remember the original source!)</p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72624</link>
		<dc:creator>DAV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/25/another-addition-for-your-skeptic-toolkit/#comment-72624</guid>
		<description>TheBlackCat, are you one of those posters who says "A" and when another posts "not A; B" you then reply "I said 'B' why are you saying 'A'?" I hope not. It's quite childish.

BTW, I never said "'illusion' implies that there’s something wrong with our visual system" however &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; (&lt;b&gt;TheBlackCat&lt;/b&gt; on 26 Feb 2008 at 9:10 am) said “Many optical illusions very much do expose flaws in our visual system.” It's there for all to see. Are you really denying having said that? If so, grow up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TheBlackCat, are you one of those posters who says &#8220;A&#8221; and when another posts &#8220;not A; B&#8221; you then reply &#8220;I said &#8216;B&#8217; why are you saying &#8216;A&#8217;?&#8221; I hope not. It&#8217;s quite childish.</p>
<p>BTW, I never said &#8220;&#8216;illusion&#8217; implies that there’s something wrong with our visual system&#8221; however <i>you</i> (<b>TheBlackCat</b> on 26 Feb 2008 at 9:10 am) said “Many optical illusions very much do expose flaws in our visual system.” It&#8217;s there for all to see. Are you really denying having said that? If so, grow up.</p>
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