Florida: Make up your mind about Doom already!

By Phil Plait | March 25, 2008 8:38 pm

What’s that? Creationist sympathizers in Florida are trying to force an unnecessary and unneeded bill providing for the Orwellianly-phrased "academic freedom" of teachers and students?

Yeah, shocker. Brandon Haught of Florida Citizens for Science has the details. If you think this isn’t a big deal, read how the bill is summarized on the Florida Senate’s page:

Provides public school teachers with a right to present scientific information relevant to the full range of views on biological and chemical origins. Prohibits a teacher from being discriminated against for presenting such information. Prohibits students from being penalized for subscribing to a particular position on evolution, etc.

Hey, remember when Oklahoma did that a few weeks ago? I guess Florida legislators are jealous that Oklahoma is hogging all the ridicule.

Brandon says the creationists are lighting up the Senate switchboards with phone calls, so if you’re a Floridian and you like reality the way it is, then please take a moment and make your voice heard as well and let the Florida Senate know that this bill is a waste of time, energy, money, and will hurt our students and the reputation of Florida. The bottom of Brandon’s post has links that will give you what you need. He’s also tracking the progress of the bill on another page.

Comments (36)

  1. Tyler Durden

    Florida, WWTDD?

  2. Tensor

    Awwww Jeez, not again. Well, time to crank up the computer and start mailing out emails and charge up the phone and start calling my representatives. At least I have some support.
    Hey, BA, one of the Biology teachers at MCC had a hand in writing the new standards and does a real good job of defending evolution and is very vocal about keeping ID out of the school system by writing letters and guest editorials to the local papers. She happens to live a couple of houses down from me.

  3. Didn’t the dover trial reaffirm that teaching “Intelligent Design” is a direct violation of the United States Constitution? Since it’s not been reversed on appeal it is every bit as binding as a Supreme Court decision. It is federal law. Since it was the finding that ID = Creationism, which was stuck down in no uncertain terms by the Supreme Court in the 1980′s it’s illegal to teach it. Or, for that matter, for a state to actively oppose this Federal policy.

    Federal law trumps state law. That was determined early on in the US and therefore anyone in a state government who supports Intelligent Design has gone beyond the bounds of states rights and is actively trying to undermine the US Government and the US Constitution. This means two things: First, by definition they are committing the highest crime: High treason against their own nation. Secondly, if a state goes with this policy then they are, by definition, an enemy of the US and all those who are supporting them by this action have, in no uncertain terms, made themselves enemy combatants who pose an internal opposing force to national security. In other words, they are invaders.

    Treason and especially in the context of actively attempting to discredit the US Constitution is unique in that it does not traditionally result in a standard trial by jury. Rather, those legislators who supported this should be brought before a tribunal of judges and tried under the accordances of established protocol for dealing with traitors in a military context.

    If they are found to be actively encouraging ID schooling within the legislature of a state of the United States republic then they need to be dispatched promptly by firing squad.

    I see no reason why this is not happening right now. It certainly should be.

  4. Bonogamy

    What’s happening in Florida can happen anywhere if the wrong guys get elected. Where I live in Canada a creationist was almost elected to the school board, missing by about a dozen votes. He’s going to take it as a sign from god that he should run even harder next time. There’s going to be a huge demand for teachers in just a few years as all the baby boomers retire. How many prospective teachers want to go into teaching knowing they’ll have to put a checkmark beside the wrong answer?

    This process is essentially forcing teachers to give fundies special treatment. Students who pass with high grades ill-gotten through religious favoritism will infect colleges and universities at a higher rate than they are now. Science will be officially destroyed at the level where it can do the most good because it will all depend on what the flying spaghetti monster tells you.

    The official party line of society is that you should respect teachers, but I won’t respect any teacher who puts a checkmark beside 2+2=5 because some smug fundie student says it’s his religious beliefs. Civil disobedience in this case would be noble and justified, and in my view even necessary. But let’s hope it never comes to that. It’s teachers who need to say “the buck stops here” and stop this madness. The right answer is evolution, not creationism, and not intelligent design.

  5. pcarini

    The bill:
    Provides public school teachers with a right to present scientific information relevant to the full range of views on biological and chemical origins.

    I’d be ok with this wording if it also mandated the corollary, i.e. that the teachers may NOT present the unscientific information. The proposed name for this bill is a real sick piece of doublespeak: “The Academic Freedom Act”. Anyone who votes against this bill can then be characterized as being against “Academic Freedom. Neat trick, that.

  6. Mark Bobak

    Hi Phil,

    Been reading your blog for quite a while, but I’ve mostly only been lurking till now. First, I’m a strong supporter of Evolution, and making sure that science classes actually teach scientific theories. Now, having said that, the wording of this legislation scares me a bit and confuses me a bit. pcarini touched on the point, and I wanted to expound on that a bit. First off, don’t science teachers *already have* “…a right to present scientific information relevant to the full range of views on biological and chemical origins.”?? That’s what science does and what science classes should do, “present scientific information”.

    So, I’m having a hard time understanding how this is threatening in any way. Given who the backers are, I’m sure there’s something that I’m not seeing….in light of the Dover precedent which, from my layman’s point of view, can be interpreted as “creationism and ID are not science and don’t belong in a science class”, it seems to me there’d be nothing to fear.

    What am I missing??

    -Mark

  7. Ricky

    I feel for the Science teachers on the front lines. Keep up the good fight.

  8. Ambarussa

    Is all this antiscience in the US good for us here in Europe? Could we recover our leading role in science as we had one or two centuries ago?

    I don’t think so. It’s no good for anyone. We all will lose.
    (Please, forgive my bad english).

  9. baley

    This is insane! Is Florida going back to the dark ages?

  10. pcarini

    Here’s the entire bill

    Section 3:
    Every public school teacher in the state’s K-12 school system shall have the affirmative right and freedom to objectively present scientific information relevant to the full range of scientific views regarding biological and chemical evolution in connection with teaching any prescribed curriculum regarding chemical or biological origins.

    My only concern is that some teachers and their lawyers may try to stretch “objectively” or “scientific information” beyond the actual meanings of the terms into some colloquial usage of them. I think that a misinterpretation of either term would allow ID to be taught as science. (if “objectively” is interpreted as “equally”, or “scientific information” is interpreted as however the creationists mangle the term ‘science’ to make their ridiculous claims).

    See intelligentdesignnetwork.org for the current state-of-the-art in mangling both terms beyond all recognition.

  11. Todd W.

    @drbuzz0

    The Dover case was decided in a U.S. district court and prevents people from teaching ID in Dover. Someone can still try to get it into schools in some other state. The court for the Middle District of PA has no jurisdiction and cannot issue opinions that bind other districts. Any other district court (and higher courts) could come along and make its own decision on a similar case and does not need to pay any heed to the Dover decision.

    So, no treason here. Not a necessarily wise move, but no treason.

  12. Ginger Yellow

    “So, I’m having a hard time understanding how this is threatening in any way.”

    It’s not the “scientific information” bit that’s bad, although it will open up a whole new set of lawsuits over whether ID or creation science is actually science. Assuming the judge isn’t a moron, those are cases we will win. It’s the bit about not penalising someone for subscribing to a particular point of view on evolution. Again, there is a possible way that can be interpreted favourably to science (“I don’t believe in evolution, but here’s what evolutionary theory says” would be fine, for instance). But inevitably it will be interpreted by creationist leaning schools/teachers/parents/organisations) to mean that someone simply saying evolution is wrong, or making factually incorrect statements about aspects of evolution, should not be penalised. Those are cases we probably wouldn’t win, except on a constitutional basis. The wording of the legislation is much more direct.

  13. Fil

    I’d have to agree with pcarini….depends on your interpretation of what constitutes “scientific information”. Are we talking “views” here or real science?

  14. Celtic_Evolution

    My thought on this is… why would such legislation even be needed? Well… it wouldn’t be unless it was initiated by the ID movement as an underhanded way to get ID into the schools by using a convoluded bill that can be interpreted favorably for the ID cause.

    My hope that this bill will be stopped before it ever gets to a vote when some intelligent legislator brings up the simple question “what problem, exactly, does this bill address? And is there really a need for it?”. That SHOULD be the end of the line.

    Unfortunately, we’ll have to wait and see if the legislature in Florida is indeed intelligent enough to quash it.

  15. Scott

    I wonder, if this bill passes, if they will allow students to preserve their “academic freedom” by walking out of classes where ID preachers…erm, teachers…start spewing their garbage.

  16. Todd W.

    I took a look at the full bill text and also took a cursory look at some of the other bills Senator Storms introduced, finding the following, which shed some light on where she is coming from:

    S2010 – Relating to I Believe License Plates (http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/view_page.pl?Tab=session&Submenu=1&FT=D&File=sb2010.html&Directory=session/2008/Senate/bills/billtext/html/)

    Of note in this piece of legislation is that fees from these plates will be distributed to Faith in Teaching, Inc., an organization that promotes faith-based education. Although this is only one piece of legislation out of many other, non-faith/education based pieces she has introduced, it does provide some background for framing the intent of the “Academic Freedom Act.”

    I believe that, if the bill does not get shut down outright, additional language establishing the definition of “scientific” within the context of the legislation would be in order.

  17. Salaam = Shalom = Peace

    The BA said :

    “I guess Florida legislators are jealous that Oklahoma is hogging all the ridicule.”

    Hey! don’t push states of Amercia! Don’t push! Don’t push! There’s plenty of ridicule to go around! Enough for y’all, don’t worry! ;-)

    Matter of fact the rest of the planet is still laughing at your nation-wide pratfull in electing the village idiot of some oily ranch in Texas as your first intellectually challenged hereditary President that last time .. ;-)

    … Oh wait, no, they’re not laughing after all, they’re crying in disbeleif that even your mob could be so exasperatingly; self-destructively dumb. :-( ,,,,,,

    ———————–

    Please Americans, come to your senses! The rest of the planet is missing the *old* you. Y’know, the one that went to the Moon, that was the home and love of the likes of Martin Luther King, Isaac Asimov and Carl Sagan. That didn’t torture people, didn’t invade countries and threaten to invade others just ‘coz they disliked their govts or wanted their oil.

    Y’know _that_ America. The one that used to have a constituition that meant something, that believed in equality, freedom and civil liberties. The America that was coming out of dark ages of Scopes trials against evolution and witchraft trails at Salem and that all that religious intolerance and fundamentalist stuff. The old USA -where did that go? Where’s _that_ good ole US of A when its really, really needed?

    … & what’s with this new US of A the one created by that (late?) whacko O-sam-whatsiname whose living (perhaps?) in cave somewhere far way and whose worst recent act was a nasty video message. Oh’ &his really nasty best buddy that took it all down from the inside, liekEmperor Palpatine, whatsizname again – Bush? Cheney? Rumsfeld? How dare that nation of torturers and fools, that nation going back into the dark ages, back into Dark Ages fundamentalist bigotry, that nation of people defecating bricks at the sight of anyone slightly different .. How dare this *new* USA even call itself by the same name as the good USA, the old one!!!

    Please Americans, come to your senses! The rest of the planet is missing the *old* you …

  18. Salaam = Shalom = Peace

    Sometimes Black humour is the only way to cope. For me anyhow.

    When I look (from my home in Oz) at the state of the United States – & the world since the US pushes that so hard well ..

    .. I sometimes feel like I’m watching a terrible car crash (the sort where a little kid and a pregant lady pushing a baby in a pram are all run over by a semi-trailer type accident ..) happening in slow motion, right in front of me …

    … & even as I try to shout a warning nobody hears or looks and the truck driver (Is he mad?! Is he suicidal!? Is he ..what!??) guns the engine and aims the truck right at the victims.

    ***
    NB. In case its not blatantly obvious symbolism, I’ll use the sledge-hammer here (hey, I may be many things but subtle ain’t one! ;-) ) & note :

    Truck driver = Bush Jr & the NeoCons, Relig. Wrong & Israeli lobbies

    Victims = America & the rest of the Planet.

    ***

    Now I don’t mean to offend anyone here.
    (Believe it or not. I just have strong opinions and express ‘em strongly too.)

    But, by Jove, I *do* want y’all to wake up & really think!

    If any of what I’ve written above is useful to anyone who agrees or even half-agrees with what I’m saying .. Please use it as best suits.

    ———————————

    Please Americans, come to your senses! The rest of the planet is missing the *old* you …

  19. Salaam = Shalom = Peace

    Acronymed Tyler Durden on 25 Mar 2008 at 8:53 pm :

    “Florida, WWTDD?”

    Er .. say again sorry. Some of us here (well, @ least 1 – me! ;-) ) don’t know *all* these acronymns yet.

    Is there a glossary somewhere?

    Please could ‘Fight Club man’ or somebody else here put me out of my misery (Ooh shouldn’t tempt ‘em! ;-) ) & tell me what that means?

    I know LOL (Laughing Out Loud), BTW (By The Way), IMHO (in My Humble Opinion), ROTFLMAO (Rolling On The Floor Laughin’ My Ass Off) & some others but not that one .. :-~

  20. I’ve written several e-mails to Ms. Browne-Waite several times and she’s a typical right-wing flunky.

    She sends back cordial replies telling me about the GOP mandate and how my views can basically be gently placed where the sun don’t shine.

    Contacting her is a waste of time and only gets an insult in return.

    The problem with Florida is nobody is from here and nobody cares. The state is becoming a vast wasteland thanks to land developers and other “entrepreneurs” who are basically here to rape the place and leave rich.

  21. StevoR

    Hey I remembered something.

    Now I’m sure we’ll get a few folks who may read this & be tempted to “argue” (somehow!) for creationism / ID as science or some how equivalent to science.

    Well for those folks I will suggest they try slowly reading and understanding this :

    http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/02/18/is-science-faith-based/

    Its from this BA forum / blog.

    I also suggest they read the works of Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov and others. (Spinoza, Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, Phil Plait, etc … )

    Oh, & please don’t blame me for this post, folks! After all the Bad Astronomer did ask :

    “The next time someone tries to tell you that science is just as faith-based as religion, or that evolution is a religion, point them here. [The link above.] Perhaps the evidence of science may sway them. Perhaps not; it’s difficult to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. But the next time they get on a computer, maybe they’ll take a slightly more critical look at it, and wonder if its workings are a miracle, or the results of brilliant minds over many generations toiling away at the scientific method.”

    Well BA I did!

    Even if this is a bit of an .. ah .. pre-emptive strike! ;-)

  22. Tyler Durden

    ““Florida, WWTDD?”

    Er .. say again sorry. Some of us here (well, @ least 1 – me! ;-) ) don’t know *all* these acronymns yet.

    Is there a glossary somewhere? ”

    = What Would Tyler Durden Do?

  23. LaCreption

    Unbelievable. Why keep those people talking about science? Fantasy is *not* science. Creationism and Intelligent Design is illogical rubbish that won’t help you for a single bit in a lab.

    Nature is seems too complex and well orchestrated to have natural causes? Well, what about this god figure then? Ah, I see. Of course he was not designed. He just happened to be there for an eternity in a big nothing. Makes sense.

    Hey, why not introduce 1+1=3 in your classrooms. Just don’t be overly surprised when China beats the US in science, technology en economics within, say, the next 20 years. Just think about it as something divine.

  24. LaCreption

    @ StevoRon 26 Mar 2008 at 9:54 am

    The funny thing is that religious folks too are convinced that the universe follows a set of rules, but they think the rules are set by a ruler who is not bound to rules. Except for that rule of course.

  25. @Todd W.

    The court of Dover was a federal court and therefore it’s federal precedent. Any higher court could reverse it, yes. But none has. Considering this is the only federal judgment on the matter it’s the only view of the federal government.

    Aside from that, if it is an attempt to undermine the constitution then it is treason, so even if dover does not apply, the next question would be “Does the first amendment prevent this and by doing this are they trying to undermine it.”

    I’d suggest that since some might not say that’s totally clear that we allow the military tribunal to decide. They really need to be declared a rogue element of the state government and an enemy operating within US borders as soon as possible. This is necessary to invoke the full force of constitutional powers to destroy the threat.

    It’s not like the southern states have not pulled this crap before. They ought to learn their lesson the first time that undermining the republic is only going to amount to a heap of trouble.

  26. Daffy

    “The funny thing is that religious folks too are convinced that the universe follows a set of rules, but they think the rules are set by a ruler who is not bound to rules. Except for that rule of course.”

    Well, what do we expect? This is a group of people who sincerely believe God sent himself sown to be horribly murdered on the cross in order to save his own creation from his own divine wrath. Yikes.

  27. Todd W.

    @drbuzz0

    According to Article III(3) of the Constitution,

    “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.”

    Although I agree that attempts to insert ID into school curriculum is an attempt to circumvent the establishment clause, it is not treason.

    Also, though I didn’t quite say it clearly enough, the Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania is a U.S. District Court with jurisdiction only over its particular district. Any decision it makes is a precedent only for lower courts. It does not set a precedent for other district courts, nor for the higher courts. Only courts below it (i.e., state courts) must defer to the judgment in Kitzmiller v. Dover.

    If a similar case were to arise in any other district court, the presiding judge is not required to give any deference whatsoever to the Dover decision. That being said, there is substantial evidence from which to draw in that case, and that evidence could be brought to bear in any other cases that may arise.

    Although I do not, in any way, agree with what the DI and other ID supporters are saying or trying to do, they have every right to say what they want.

    As for thinking that we should let a military tribunal decide the matter, that is a step down a dangerous path. If some group begins speaking about something and promotes its agenda, and we declare them enemies of the State and use the military to police the matter, we run the risk of becoming victims of the same procedures later on. Where does the line get drawn? What’s to stop someone from using the same tactic when they disagree with us? Frankly, I don’t want the military deciding matters of law. Bad things happen then.

  28. pcarini

    Here’s the scenario I see playing out should the law pass:

    1) Some teacher will immediately use this to start teaching ID on the pretext that it’s a scientific theory, alongside an ‘objective’ look at the Theory of Evolution which focuses on all the places where it’s missing data.

    2) Soon after a lawsuit will be brought to stop the teaching of this junk. The first sane judge this case comes across will make halt the teaching of ID. I’m not sure if the law could be struck down as unconstitutional the way it’s worded, it appears to be so carefully worded as to not have any _legal_ effect, in my completely ignorant legal opinion.

    3) Another ton of bile against “liberal activist judges” will be added to the already very sizable and foul heap by the most extreme conservatives and _all_ the ID supporters. The judge in question will be conservative, of course, and consider herself to be a constructionist. The judge will be gleefully and shamelessly slandered by the far right commentators and, if she’s Christian, they will declare that she’s not a “true Christian”. (God help us if she’s not Christian… I’m not quite ready for actual fighting in the streets)

  29. LaCreption

    @Daffyon 26 Mar 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Listening to those people is like being in those childhood nightmares where nobody understands you or where you want to run away without getting anywhere.

    These people support and promote anti-reasoning (it’s faith, baby!) by reasoning. Then they claim that their reasoning -explaining why reasoning is a bad thing- is superior to anything else. They prefer non logic over logic while trying to sound logic and claim their logic is superior, because it is not logic.

    Those people insist being extremely skeptical but reject the scientific method. The biggest skeptical framework human thought ever produced, where every single word is weighed by numerous other people who only want to prove you wrong. To eternity. They are even funded to expose your pink color. Worldwide.

    Of course God is a different story. If he says 1+1=3 then 1+1 is 3. Not? Have faith, baby. And wire me some money. His logic is impossible. Love is everything. As long it is heterosexual of course.

  30. Well I’d consider it to be tantamount to war to actively legislate this.

    So I’ll be wittiness number one. Who wants to be two?

  31. Ginger Yellow

    “Hey, why not introduce 1+1=3 in your classrooms. ”

    1+1=3 for sufficiently large values of 1.

  32. LaCreption

    @Ginger Yellow on 27 Mar 2008 at 10:26 am

    Apparently Kent Hovind actually tried to fill out his tax papers using creationist mathematics.

  33. StevoR

    Tyler Durden :

    [i] “Is there a glossary somewhere? ”

    WWTDD = What Would Tyler Durden Do? [/i]

    Thanks! :-)

  34. StevoR

    Pcarini :

    [quote] 3) Another ton of bile against “liberal activist judges” will be added to the already very sizable and foul heap by the most extreme conservatives and _all_ the ID supporters. The judge in question will be conservative, of course, and consider herself to be a constructionist. [/Unquote]

    Hmm.. the worry is that aren’t the Krazies under (or over?) Bush II (George the Insane”) apointing Judghes -who agree with them?

    The damage this current US administration is doing its nation – and the rest of the planet is catastrophic and long-lasting…

    I seriously fear that the anti-science, anti-peace Retardican party will win the 09 election (it should be brought forward and George II should be impeached & tried for warcriems over teillegal invasionand occupationof Iraq .. but no Democratic leader seems to have the spine to ensure this happens!) because of the Clinton-Obama infighting.

    I really fear Old Man MCCain will be your new Presiking & Huckabee his Veep & that McCain’ll suffer aheartattack, stroke or chronic incontinece or whatever & fall out of office leaving Huckabee or suchlike lunatic in power. Then they’ll ensure teh damage of Bush II gets worse and garantee the fall of the USA. Taking much of the West down with it. :-(

    I can seriously see that taking place. Ourcivilisation -wWesterncivilisationis at stake here. The alliance of totaliatarian Muslim & Christian extremists and war-mongers – (the Late?) bin laden & Bush teh Shrub is winning the war against reason & the world.

    My hope is that Hillary sees sense & quits the race – or accepts Vice-Presidency nomination under Obama. That Obama wins & becoems President. That the US then ends its needless wars on “terror” (conducted by using govt terrorism of its own) and starts coming to its senses everywhere.

    I wish I could say I had enough confidence in the US population to do that. I really wish they’d been smart enough NOT to vote for Bush the Mad the last time ..

    The damage is severe – and is getting worse every day that Bush & his Neo-Cons hold power . :-(

    Please Americia! Impeach Bush jr! Vote Obama

    End your wars & start climbing out of this huge hole you’ve dug yourselves before it becomes your grave.

    & please understand too that I say all this not because I dislike America but rather because I love America – the old Good America anyway …

  35. StevoR

    CORRECTED DRAFT -Since I cant edit … Sigh.

    *****
    # StevoR on 29 Mar 2008 at 8:04 am
    Pcarini :

    [quote] 3) Another ton of bile against “liberal activist judges” will be added to the already very sizable and foul heap by the most extreme conservatives and _all_ the ID supporters. The judge in question will be conservative, of course, and consider herself to be a constructionist. [/Unquote]

    Hmm.. the worry is that aren’t the Kristian Krooks’n'Krazies under (or over?) Bush II (“George the Insane”) appointing Judges – who agree with them ratehr than reality?

    The damage this current US administration is doing its nation – and the rest of the planet is catastrophic and long-lasting…

    I seriously fear that the anti-science, anti-peace Retardican party will win the ’09 election ..

    (which should be brought forward and George II should be impeached & tried for war crimes over the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq .. but no Democratic leader seems to have the spine to ensure this happens!)

    … because of the bitter Clinton-Obama in-fighting. :-(

    I really fear Old Man MCCain will be your new Presiking (tehnew powesr make President an inadequate description of the job..) & Huckabee his Veep & that McCain’ll suffer a heart attack, stroke or chronic incontinence or whatever & die in office leaving Huckabee or suchlike lunatic in power.

    Then they’ll ensure the damage of Bush II gets worse and garantee the fall of the USA. Taking much of the West down with it. :-(

    I can seriously see that taking place. Our civilisation – Western civilisation is at stake here. The alliance of totaliatarian Muslim & Christian extremists and war-mongers – (the Late?) bin laden & Bush teh Shrub is winning the war against reason & the world.

    The USA very badly needs to change direction – the rest of the Earth needs Amercia to change direction before its too late.

    My hope is that Hillary sees sense & quits the race – or accepts Vice-Presidency nomination under Obama. That Obama wins & becomes President. That the US then ends its needless wars on “terror” (conducted by using govt terrorism of its own) and starts coming to its senses everywhere.

    I wish I could say I had enough confidence in the US population to think they’ll do that.

    I really wish they’d been smart enough NOT to vote for Bush the Mad the last time ..

    The damage is severe – and is getting worse every day that Bush & his Neo-Cons hold power .

    Please America! Impeach Bush jr! Vote Obama

    End your wars & start climbing out of this huge hole you’ve dug yourselves before it becomes your grave.

    & please understand too that I say all this not because I dislike America but rather because I love America – the old Good America anyway …

  36. StevoR

    Daffy noted :

    [Q]
    “Well, what do we expect? This is a group of people who sincerely believe God sent himself sown to be horribly murdered on the cross in order to save his own creation from his own divine wrath. Yikes.” [/Q]

    (How do you create “quote blocks” here anyway??)

    Yikes indeed.

    People who think that way should NOT be running your country. Period.

    Indeed; I hate to sound anti-democratic but, really, for the sake of everyone sane people who think like that should be denied the right to vote on grounds of mental incompetance. Do we let people who think they’re Napoleon vote? (I hope not!) Why then allow others who believe in invisible sky-daddies to do so … :-(

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