I mean, honestly. Michelle Malkin finally stopped going on Bill O’Reilly’s show when even the sycophantic Geraldo Rivera said she was creepy, and Ann Coulter somehow no longer haunts (and I mean that literally) the bobblehead news shows.
So why do they go to people like Pat Buchanan, who has shown himself repeatedly to be a throwback to 900 years ago?
This time, it’s a nutsoid racist rant that is worthy of any of the pre-Laurel Maryland George Wallace speeches:
Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America? Is it really white America’s fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?
Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?
The mind boggles. He says things as ignorant as this (and lots, lots more) and still gets to go on national television programs, which tacitly give his words weight. Didn’t we get rid of this kind of narrow-minded bigoted garbage forty years ago?
No, I suppose not, which is why Obama’s speech was so important. I’m not sold on Obama yet — his science policies need to be straightened out for me at least, and I have other issues I’m working through — but that speech was pretty cool. Imagine, talking to Americans like they’re intelligent, capable of understanding layers of subtlety and nuance of phrasing. I bet he can pronounce "nuclear", too.
But then, we still have far too many people like Buchanan to deal with. As long as he and his ilk get a podium, Obama’s speech will still be needed.
Hat tip to Crooks and Liars, which had an excellent response to Buchanan as well as links to others.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
You could always move to Australia. The level of political commentary is quite good.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Yeah, but the seasons are backward.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Sadly, the reason why you see opinions like this still published, is that they are truly representative of a significant portion of the population. Maybe you haven’t run into them, but I have. Blame Buchanan? Sure, but he wouldn’t be around if no one listened to him.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
There is one point that he has correct in the quote you took: the so-called “White America” is not solely responsible for those things. Saying or believing that “Whites” are responsible for that is a particular type of racism in itself, suggesting that “African-Americans” can’t have responsibility for their actions or communities.
In fact, it is neither “Whites” nor “African-Americans” that are responsible for these statistics but Americans. Multiculturalism, while well meaning, can contribute to racism and partisanship in issues where our country as a whole should be united as Americans, not partisan groups based on what ethnicity we should happen to have been born as.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I got soured on Obama after the whole Jeremiah Wright debacle. As a result, I’m actually giving serious consideration to moving to another country. None of the candidates are in any way palatable to me, so I think it’s time to pack it in for me. Hopefully, I can find a job in one of the many countries in Europe. The best part is that I won’t have to deal with any more lunatic fundies as well. I’m sad that it has reached this point though.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I would encourage people to please read Buchanan’s whole rant, that BA links to, as this one small part may not give a totally accurate picture. It is truly frightening that individuals with such a biased (racist) slant are given a national voice to air those views.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
When blacks and whites stop being racist toward each other (it’s incredible that you can’t say black people are racist but you can say whites are.), I’ll say we have made a step forward. When whites stop saying whites are oppressed by blacks, and blacks stop saying their “black community” is oppressed by whites, I’ll say we made a step forward.
In the meantime, I’ll just say that races is a stupid concept to begin with.
March 28th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Old Pat, of course, was one of the truly die-hard Nixon supporters and was one of the great Watergate enablers. I do not think he is any position to lecture me on law and order, thank you very much.
March 28th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Why not put insane people on television? Don’t we see enough rational and sane people in real life? Do we need them on television, just to bore us?
I say, more insane people on television!
March 28th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Is it wrong to dispute the assignment of collective guilt to one race for the actions of individual members of another race? That seems to be what Buchannan is doing, albeit in a foaming-at-the mouth tone.
I think the whole identity politics thing has been a disaster for the US, turning people who would otherwise get along just fine against each other. There’s never been any chance of me voting for Obama, simply because his politics are diametrically opposed to mine. I was hopeful, though, that he was actually attempting to move beyond race. Given the company he’s kept, and his defense of his racist looney-tune pastor, I seriously doubt that he’s doing anything more than tactical maneuvering.
March 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
So… the man is pursuing a line of rhetoric that leads through a minefield.
Perhaps if it should have been phrased ‘People of all communities should stop looking for someone to blame for their station in life, and look towards themselves in an effort to improve their quality of life.’
The instant you tie race, religion, or political belief to an observation of the human condition things tend to get out of hand.
If you’re not a minority, you are considered a racist. If you ARE a minority then you are subject to a miriad of insults and get written off as trying to find an excuse for your plight.
Although I tend to agree with the quote from (the admittedly crazed) Mr. Buchanan, I also believe that making the observation does not improve anyone’s situation.
Although we should all be proud of our heritage and ethnicity, in the end, we are all HUMANS, completely trumping labels of nationality or race.
Quite frankly, I’m tired of tip-toeing around my choice of words for fear of offending someone. Maybe we need to be offended to motivate dialog and meaningful change.
There is obviously a chasm separating the cultures of race in this country, and instead of saying ‘it’s not the white man’s fault!’, Mr. Buchanan should be attempting to find out the reason WHY there are differences in the way cultures are treated AND IN THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR.
Let’s ask questions and find a solution, not point fingers.
Strangely enough, the current episode of our podcast covers Pat Buchanan, Geraldine Ferraro’s unfortunate decision to open her mouth about race, and even the ‘two worst words in the English language.’
And before anyone asks, I don’t bother edging around language or topics on the show… listen at your own risk.
March 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I agree with Dave. Unfortunately there’s a bunch of people who hold these views and love to rant about them like Buchanan, yet do little to improve those issues both in words and deeds. I also agree with Michelle and look forward to that day when people are people, both good and bad. I tend to be an equal opportunity offender and praiser and I wish all were.
BA, Obama does pronounce “nuclear” correctly! I don’t understand why you are so hesitant about his science views. I have the impression he is quite open to persuasion and dialogue from experts. I mean, not even here can comments agree on manned vs. unmanned space missions.
And too, he is very explicit about emphasizing science and technology education. You may worry about funding and jobs now, but if we don’t improve science education, then there won’t be much funding or jobs in the future. At least that’s how I see it. (You can watch videos and read his policies views on his site.)
Michelle Malkin is like one of the cliquish girls in Junior High who made fun of everybody for not wearing the “right” clothes and people eventually got SOHS.
March 28th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
There’s much evidence to refute your view, but you have to be willing to be open-minded and take the time and effort to learn that. If you don’t (and I’m not saying you haven’t looked into all that) than you are merely accepting some one view that has been presented to you by the media.
And we all know how reliable the media is. (rolls eyes)
March 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Let us not forget that Patty B presumably makes large amounts of $$$ for expressing his opinions, however disgusting. He has done this for many decades and will continue as long as the dough obtains. Same for Coulter, etc.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
He talks about a lot of the social constructs as if Black Americans are the only ones who benefit from them. As if blacks are the only ones on welfare. Blacks are the only ones in section 8. He shows his hand in doing so.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Some people just aren’t getting it, read the whole thing. Buchanan is running riot through a list of flaws in a transparent attempt to scare everyone into thinking Obama’s going to let the floodgates open and suddenly white women are going to be raped and all kinds of disaster is going to fall from the sky.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Melusine: I’ve looked into the situation enough to satisfy myself that Obama isn’t what he portrays himself as. That isn’t to say that he’s necessarily any worse than any other politician; it’s just that he seems to me to be business as usual once you get beyond the veneer. As I said, it’s kind of a moot point to me, as his politics are so far from mine that I never could see myself voting for him.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
The crazies get air time cause they’re…..CRAZY. Unfortunately news is not informational, it’s entertainment. Sadly most people don’t understand that and make the silly mistake of trying to get information from the likes of FOXNews and MSNBC. Hell, it inspired you to write a blog about it, which is more or less free publicity. And, you know that when you saw Pat Buchanon on the TVs that you stopped to see what insane thing he would say next.
In the end it’s all your fault. Geez.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
I take it that BA’s answer to Buchanon’s 3 questions in the excerpt are:
1.) Yes, of course
2.) Yes, of course
3.) The former
Any other answers than these makes one a “nutsoid racist”. FYI, Buchanon is fervently opposed to the Iraq War:
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=10150
And he is no friend of G.W. Bush after writing several books attacking him and his neocon cronies:
“Where the Right Went Wrong: How Neoconservatives Subverted the Reagan Revolution and Hijacked the Bush Presidency”
http://www.hebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6536
“Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology, and Greed are Tearing America Apart”
http://www.utterz.com/~u-NDk3OTQ5Mw/utt.php
Geraldo Rivera calling Michelle Malkin creepy, now that’s hilarious coming from the Pontifex Creepius Maximus himself. I guess she doesn’t agree with Geraldo that we should have a wide-open border with Mexico. For the low-down on Malkin I would recommend:
“Invasion: How America Still Welcomes Terrorists, Criminals, and Other Foreign Menaces to Our Shores”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion:_How_America_Still_Welcomes_Terrorists,_Criminals,_and_Other_Foreign_Menaces
March 28th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
PZ Myers seems to have a solution to nutheads on the airwaves: cut in and interrupt them!
March 28th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Buchanan’s underlying premise — that there are two Americas, one white and one black — is the unexamined, and false, concept that few will even recognize, much less find repugnant.
There’s just one America, and it’s populated with all kinds of people. All it takes to be an American is a willingness to abide by the principles liad out in the Declaration and the rules laid out in the Constitution.
Sadly, Buchanan and people like him believe the country was founded by white Englishmen for the benefit of white Englishmen.
Americans with black skin have been here since before the Pilgrims arrived. Buchanan needs to get used to it.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Great post, Phil. But I feel like Bruce Willis in Die Hard, shouting, “Welcome to the party, pal!” You’re just now noticing Buchanan is a cupcake?? He’s made some great quotes about evolution, too.
Of course, as the old aphorism goes, better late than never!
March 28th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
I haven’t watched television for at least 10 years. I don’t have cable, satellite or even an antenna.
Since then I’ve watched DVDs and Videos but that’s it. No network tv. It’s worse than crack.
As a result I’m subjected to people insulting my intelligence much less frequently than before (I also don’t listen to radio).
And I have tons more time but still not enough.
March 28th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
I’ve been waiting to vote for someone who doesn’t say “new kewler”
since before Jimmy Carter.
(What the heck is a kewler, anyway, and what’s wrong with the old ones?)
March 28th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
I’ve noticed that the right-wing commentators have developed a cast-iron ‘proof’ that only ethnic minorities are racist.
i) Only ethnic minorities complain about racist discrimination, almost always perpetrated by white people.
ii) It is racist to make a generalization about an entire ‘race’, be it white, black, brown etc.
iii) But, in order to claim racist discrimination from whites, a member of an ethnic minority is in effect generalizing that all whites are bigoted.
iv) Combining the above, we see that only ethnic minorities are racist.
Q.E.D.
Thus, Obama is constantly criticized for attacking whites whenever he mentions racism against blacks, whereas Buchanan is lauded for speaking the truth about racist minorities who want to blame all their problems on whites.
——————————————
I should emphasize that I strongly disagree with these commentators. This comment is intended to point out how stupid they are.
March 28th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Pat Buchanan ?
I don’t think even creationists think he’s less than 6000 years old . Gosh, haven’t hear this name for long while ! Now there he is haunting us!!
March 28th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Christian:
The conservative commentators who I’ve read over the years have never impressed me as trying to establish that “only ethnic minorities are racist.” I’ve seen plenty of instances where they’ve pointed out hypocrisy on the part of those trying to advance themselves via racial politics. I don’t think there’s anything wrong or somehow logically inconsistent about about pointing out racism on the part of someone who seeks money, political power, or privilege on the basis of his or her (alleged) status as a victim of racism.
March 28th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
My own opinion aside, the statements quoted, by themselves, sound very much like ones made fairly recently by Bill Cosby. If I recall correctly, the African-American community jumped all over his……well, all over him for it.
March 28th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I guess I can Google it, but are those statistics he spouts off legitimate?
March 28th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Pat Buchanan is the reason I find myself defending illegal aliens.
March 28th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Space Cadet beat me to the punch. This does sound a lot like what Cosby has been saying for at least the last five years or so.
And why keep putting these people on TV? Well, my mom always said (and still says) that you can catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. But it’s been my observation that neither is as effective at drawing flies as a big stinking pile of manure – or a rotting corpse.
March 28th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Space Cadet: If the statements were alone, they would sound similar to Bill Cosby’s, but they’re not:
Right here is when anybody with any iota of decency or brains would shut off Buchanan. That he says has been when people were hanged until even in some incidences to the early 70s and worse, recent incidences in Texas…well, Buchanan was born 200 years late. “Grew into a community!” Under force with no rights! Buchanan is a caricature – not even worth getting upset over except for the hate groups who think he’s just swell. There are real concerns about these issues, but Buchanan is hardly the person to deliver them.
You almost wish there was a Pundit Penal Colony.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Living in Australia we don’t get to watch many of these, really, really terrible news shows, but having watched Bill O’Reilly and Fox news on cable I would have to say, it’s just trash. I can barely listen to his arrogant, illogical, and angry ranting and when watching Fox news its more like watching comedy. It is so bad it’s funny. I don’t understand how anyone would get their news information about any subject from it. Compared to many other USA, European and Aussie based news programs its just junk. Every time I see it I am reminded of other TV gems like Jerry Springer and such. Pure trash TV.
It was largely highlighted to me during the last big hype up of the IRAQ war, whereby you could see unbiased and informative reports about the war from many news stations and from many viewpoints, here (Oz) and internationally, but when seeing FOX news’ version of things .. well …. its like they live in a bubble, picking and choosing what to report. I reckon watching it reduces your IQ by a few points, literally.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Sadly, quasidog, there are many millions of Americans who think Bill O’Reilly is the voice of reason.
John Farrell, don’t confuse my saying something now with just coming to a realization now. I’ve thought Buchanan was a dangerous nutbag decades ago.
Sure, he’s against the Iraq War, and he may think the right has lost its way, but he’s been happily pushing them along for years. Read the quotes from here to see how he’s an isolationist and a far-right religious zealot himself.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
BA:
How is the portion you quoted different from what Bill Crosby’s been saying? Seriously. And, unfortunately, he has a point.
Maybe you aren’t exposed to it where you are, but there’s diverging cultures running through both black and poor white communities. One is to excel, to study hard, that there is no shame in being smart or successful, to treat yourself and others with respect. The other holds learning with contempt and thinks postponed gratification is foolish.
I’ve seen this with my children and their friends. Invariably it’s the same ones who show up at school functions, who take an interest in their children’s education. Guess which children usually make the better grades? And it cuts across all races.
Here’s the kicker: At some point a lot of kids start looking to their peers for cultural guidance. And what do you do when their friends tell them they’re “acting white” or they’re “acting like they’re too good?” Because that happens.
That can’t be laid at the feet of whites anymore. Segregation is dead, dead, dead, buried with a stake through its heart. Blacks are no longer kept out of positions of authority. There is more opportunity for minorities in the U.S. now than there has ever been. There is no reason whatsoever than a child of any race can’t work hard and achieve their dreams.
What’s needed is to more Bill Cosbys, more people like a white High School teacher I knew who pointed out why it was important not to drop out, more people who gets it through kids heads that what they make of themselves is *their* responsibility. And we need more people like Bill Cosby who’re willing to at least try to stamp out that divergent culture that encourages mediocrity. That’s going to take leaders whom the children and parents respect. Blaming others is not a solution.
Or maybe I’m a 900-year throwback, too. But if it’s a 12th Century mindset to think that making something of oneself is the responsibility of the individual, then I’d rather have it than a 21st Century mindset that expects society to do it for you. Because the world won’t hand anyone their future on a silver platter.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
In his role on MSNBC these days, Buchanan comes across as surprisingly sensible most of the time. He rarely if ever is spouting right-wing rhetoric, just doing neutral analysis… sounding like a real journalist. Kind of lulls you into a false sense of security about the guy, I guess.
I read his biography, “Right from the Beginning”, a couple decades ago, in hopes of understanding his thinking. But I never quite did. His best attempts at self-justification came down to saying that he was staying true to his father’s beliefs. He went on a lot about “Catholic truth”, but his standard of “truth” was apparently that people who believed in Catholicism were happy — in itself a dubious claim, but in any case, just an argumentum ad consequentiam.
March 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
BA,
Why is this statement racist? Would be nice to know the context in whichthe statement was made. What about Obama’s speech was so hot? He did not completely denounce his patently racist reverend, yet his speech somehow is a groundbreaking move toward better race relations in America?
The fact that you want to know the candidates’ science stance is a cogent idea, but when you assume sweetness and light from Obama because he made a speech to avert attention from his association with a racist is not an example of critical thinking.
Do you think that only Caucasians can be racists?
March 28th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Let me try to explain some things to people who don’t understand why Buchanan is a racist nut.
I’m not a US citizen, but even I understand that blacks were denied even basic human rights in this country until relatively recently. I’m also aware that the US kept blacks as slaves in their early history.
I’m Irish, and no doubt, Irish immigrants have also been treated badly in some periods of US history. However, we were never enslaved or hung from trees or treated like dogs. We also are not recognizable from the color of our skin and have thus never had to face the overwhelming racial discrimination that was perpetrated against blacks.
Buchanan is drawing attention to the fact that sometimes, some ethnic minorities on some occasions have unfairly misattributed some problems to racism. Even then, his examples are not very convincing, and are clearly designed to give the impression that blacks are a backwards group intent on raping our women and killing each-other.
By hugely magnifying out of all proportion the claim that not all problems amongst ethnic minorities are due to white oppression, whilst completely ignoring the very real racism that occurs daily in every black person’s life- Buchanan is giving succor to people who secretly harbor racist feelings.
If I refused to condemn a murderer because his victims had all been guilty of petty offenses such as double-parking or failing to return a library book- you would be justified in suspecting that I had more sympathy for the killer than his victims. So it is with Buchanan. He may not be openly racist, but if all he talks about is whites being taken advantage of, whilst ignoring the day to day racism experienced by blacks, then I think we’re justified in assuming that he has an ulterior motive.
Ah yes, the ‘Cosby defense’. Bill Cosby has criticized some aspects of ‘black culture’, but he’s also very knowledgeable about the history of slavery and racism in the US. He’s also black. In short, Cosby has authority to speak about these problems in a way that Buchanan has not.
Buchanan speaking about racism is about as credible as Sylvia Browne giving a lecture on astronomy.
March 28th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
(One of my sentences above was pretty poorly worded. When I wrote ‘raping our women’, even satirically, it did give the impression that ‘our=white people’, whereas the BA readership is ethnically diverse. I apologize.)
March 28th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I was truly disappointed in Obama when he said:
“…The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn’t. But she is a typical white person…”
I was actually thinking he might be the best candidate out there.
And one thing doesn’t mean everything, but when you combine it with the 20 year association with his pastor, his Wife’s attitude about our country and the totally lack of real information about what he really will do if president, makes me wonder.
March 28th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
I find it quite interesting that Buchanon, a guy who has never been elected to public office (and thus owes us the public absolutely nothing) is singled out as a “nutsoid racist”, but the history of the longest serving person in the United States Senate is never mentioned ever. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that he is a Democrat?
Of course, I’m talking about Robert Byrd – Democrat from West Virginia who has served in the Senate since before most of us were born.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd
“He participated in the KKK during World War II, holding the titles Kleagle (recruiter) and Exalted Cyclops. He did not serve in the military during the war, working instead as a welder in a Baltimore, Maryland shipyard, where he helped build warships. Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy about racially integrating the military. Byrd, when he was 28 years old, wrote to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo, of Mississippi, vowing never to serve in such a military:
Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.
He had earlier written Bilbo: I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side”
Byrd was Senate Majority leader from 1977 to 1981 and from 1987 to 1989. He was the Senate Minority leader from 1982 to 1986. Thus for 12 years he was the Democratic party’s top person in the Senate. The rantings of some pundit who doesn’t hold power are supposed to be of grave concern to us. The fact that a former Exalted Cyclops of the KKK does in fact hold power is of no concern whatsoever.
Trent Lott, a Republican, lost his Senate leadership position for saying something complimentary concerning Strom Thurmond, but the news media doesn’t say a word about the Exalted Cyclops from West Virginia. The double standard in the news media (also in this blog) is readily apparent.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Yup, Byrd was a monster. Then he did something inconceivable to a conservative; he changed. Byrd looked at himself in the mirror and hated what he was, unlike Trent Lott who is a true conservative and therefore cannot escape his arrogance. So Byrd redeemed himself.
You neglected to quote from later in that Wikipedia article:
The “NAACP Congressional Report Card for the 108th Congress (spanning the 2003–2004 congressional session), Byrd was awarded with an approval rating of 100% for favoring the NAACP’s position in all 33 bills presented to the United States Senate regarding issues of their concern.”
March 28th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Wow. So many misunderstandings to correct.
Tom Marking– I wasn’t planning on writing about every racist person in this country in a position of power. This is just the latest case. I wouldn’t deny Byrd’s past any more than I would Strom Thurmond’s or David Duke’s. But they weren’t what I was writing about. In this case, bringing his name up is fine because there’s a fair context of racists in power in this country, but saying it as you did is not only ludicrous, it’s insulting.
Mike R., that’s unfair. The situation Obama was talking about with his grandmother sounds racist when you take it out of context, but even the fringe neocon Chris Wallace was upset at Fox News anchors for beating that point so grossly out of context.
Frank R, you honestly think he was trying to deflect attention away from his preacher? Really? After making a thoughtful, intelligent speech about that very topic?
And the statements of Buchanan are racist because — and I can’t believe I have to point this out — he’s trying to shift the blame from people like him to blacks. Yes, blacks should be thankful that just 143 short years after the end of the Civil War we can have a black candidate for President! How could they not be grateful?
What’s funny is that there are valid points Buchanan could have made. He could have pointed out that for the many black people have worked very hard to improve the race situation in this country, just as many whites in Congress made laws to help. He could have pointed out how interracial marriage is no longer illegal, and a hundred other ideas, but that we still have a long way to go, and we need to work together to get it to happen. But he didn’t; he tried to lay the blame at the feet of the blacks.
And as Obama correctly pointed out, the spectre of racism still exists. Many white people — like his grandmother — have a “fear of black men [passing them by] on the street”. We need to admit it and understand it. It stinks, but it’s ingrained into many people. When we can get past that, then maybe we can get past a lot of other stuff.
That’s why Obama’s speech was important. And a whole lot of the comments here make it clear we have a long, long trek ahead of us. I see a lot of deflection going on, and a whole lot of assumptions based on nothing. But a speech like that deserves, at the very least, a moment’s retrospection and internal reflection.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Bill Maher just covered this topic on Real Time. Those who missed it and have access to HBO can catch the repeat.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
At first, I was thinking that Pat Buchanan was the guy from the 700 club…
March 28th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
BA:
“And as Obama correctly pointed out, the spectre of racism still exists. Many white people — like his grandmother — have a “fear of black men [passing them by] on the street”. We need to admit it and understand it. It stinks, but it’s ingrained into many people.”
What’s with the racist knee jerk reaction? Obama was wrong and I cannot believe that someone like you – who supposedly understands statistics – thinks that it has anything to do with racism. Let me ask you a very simple question. Do you think Obama’s security detail is more worried about preparing for his speech in say, South Central LA or in Tiburon in Marin County?
Better yet, where would [b]you[/b] feel safer? It has nothing to do with racism, just the crime numbers game. Obama’s grandma clearly understands this; Obama on the other hand pretends that he does not. Obama is not stupid, so he said that for political purposes, which makes him no different from other politicians.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:06 am
When I first scanned the title I saw it as: “Can we stop giving air to insane people”.
I was OK with that alone, but after reading the entry, I too wonder why they insist on asking these particular people what they think about anything.
I want to take this opportunity to tell you what an excellent blog you have, and mention that it’s now a daily visit for me. I come for the astronomy, but the commentary like this is a bonus.
Thanks for the effort.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:11 am
BA:
“…and we need to work together to get it to happen. But he didn’t; he tried to lay the blame at the feet of the blacks.”
No, he did not. He said “Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America. Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.”
Why do you seem to think that a “two-way conversation” is equal to laying the blame on African Americans?
Buchanan’s points are valid. He said: “Is it really white America’s fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?”
So whose fault is it? Whose fault is it that the schools that are predominately African American and Hispanic are one of the worst schools in the country? Why the schools that are predominately Asian are one of the best in the country? One can make an argument that Asians come here at a great disadvantage to African Americans and whites, yet they obviously find a way to do well in this country. Why is that?
March 29th, 2008 at 12:35 am
BA:
“And the statements of Buchanan are racist because — and I can’t believe I have to point this out — he’s trying to shift the blame from people like him to blacks. Yes, blacks should be thankful that just 143 short years after the end of the Civil War we can have a black candidate for President! How could they not be grateful?”
They should not be grateful; they should take responsibility for their life just like everyone else does. If they would have done this, we would not be talking about this today.
Didn’t you say: “So why do they go to people like Pat Buchanan, who has shown himself repeatedly to be a throwback to 900 years ago?”
143 short years ago? So why live in the past, BA? Does your comment mean that you are “a throwback to 900 years ago”? Maybe you have not noticed, but before Obama, we had plenty of very successful African Americans in America, in all sorts of areas from politics to Supreme Court to business to professional sports. Are they the luckiest people in the world or have they simply put aside the blame game and took control of their life?
Do you really think that the guys who are hanging out during the day on each corner of, say, Tenderloin in San Francisco instead of being in school are somehow prevented by whites from attending the school? How come Asians, Russians, Italian, etc are not doing the same? Come on, man, you cannot be that ignorant, can you?
March 29th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Jim, asians came here as labor. Not as slave labor. Their servitude, while a tragic example of market economics debasing human lives, is not in the same league as the wholesale enslavement of a large percentage of the population. Your entire argument seems to derive from the fact that some descendants of slaves have actually survived!
Good on ya, mate; you managed to (genetically) survive the horror that was slavery, the terrorism of the post-reconstruction era, and the lingering attitudes of the entrenched ruling class.
Not only that, but some of you have attained positions of honor in the goverment that once supressed you!
Because a tiny few of you have been allowed to have an equal say in government (with the minority say being ignored), you have now, by some magical process, eliminated the cultural racism that America has had since her earliest days.
Awsome logic, that.
By your argument, I am about to storm onto the shores of east Africa, and demand my rights as one who was expelled from my home continent.
March 29th, 2008 at 1:29 am
Hmm, I’m trying to be a good boy by not ‘feeding the trolls’.
Still, I’m a little perturbed to see the sheer number of posters who find nothing wrong with a guy who thinks that it’s a good thing that
If anyone who agrees with this passage wants to convince me of their non-racism then I’ll be happy to help them become slaves in a theocratic state somewhere half-way around the world. The pay’s not great, in fact it’s zero, but at least you’ll be owned by good religious slave-masters.
————–
Speaking of the religious- where did all the normal group of Christian nuts who normally frequent these pages disappear to? They seem more than happy to brag about their moral worth and feign indignation whenever the BA dares to bring up a subject like cheesy chips which look like Jesus, or mention the Big Bang. Funnily enough, they’re nowhere to be seen when the BA criticizes a flagrant racist. Imagine that.
March 29th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Instead of watching the incessant yelling of the talking heads on the cable noise channels, why not tune into PBS on a Friday evening instead for once? Two solid hours of excellent and sober discussion with enough time (and effort) to develop some serious journalistic insights.
Washington Week In Review
NOW
Bill Moyers Journal
This last one covered the issue of racial inequality, both back in 1968 and today, 40 years on, and includes a wonderful interview with the major of New Jersey, Corey Booker, who does everything but play the victim card in talking about the plight of inner city blacks in his neck of the woods. Inspiring stuff (if, perhaps a little too religious for my tastes, but that’s ok). See the show and the interview at:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
March 29th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Well, I’m off to perform my 3 AM calculus tutoring for an African friend who has to do the night-shift at our local convenience store in order to pay for his education at the local community college, but still manages to come top of his class.
Maybe I’ll mention to him that ‘he should take responsibility for his life’.
OK… must… not.. feed… the… trolls.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:01 am
Here’s an example of why Buchanan is missing the point about the discussion over race, especially regarding Obama. Watch this clip of high school kids in a Bronx school talking about race, hope, and how they feel inspired to do something with their lives after watching Obama’s candidacy in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9IldaegAB0
Sure, they’re all fans, and no doubt many will write off their opinions as the naiveté of youth, but what you don’t see here is them blaming the whites for all their community’s problems.
Now Obama is still a politician, and he has a political past and will have a political future, he has and will do things that will get people upset (and not always of the faux outrage variety cooked up by his enemies) but I am beginning to see that his candidacy could well have a very positive outcome for the African American community, and for America as a whole.
He is not a cult leader, he is not a savior, but as you can see from this video, he does get young people excited about their political system, and he does get young people engaged, in a way I don’t believe McCain or Clinton can do.
March 29th, 2008 at 3:16 am
How ironic that on a site dedicated to science, we have what are apparently nothing more than television watchers spewing mindless drivel not grounded in th least bit of rational thought. Without Whites, science would not be where it is today; in fact, most humans would be living in caves or grass huts, banging rocks together to make fire or covering themselves in elephant feces as they currently do in Negroid Africa or in the more primitive Mestizo populations of Central and South America. If you don’t want to be White, or show due respect for the White race, that’s fine, but don’t be a hypocrite by using anything more advanced than stone-aged tools. Use your heads — turn off television and pick up an encyclopedia.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:32 am
Darn, my fifty pound bag of Purina Troll Chow [TM] just ran out.
J/P=?
March 29th, 2008 at 6:15 am
Michelle writes:
[[In the meantime, I’ll just say that races is a stupid concept to begin with.]]
Amen and amen. Races are almost impossible to define in a consistent way as long as you restrict yourself to biology. You can actually do better with blood types than with skin color.
The last anthropologist to take race seriously was probably Carleton S. Coon (yes, I know), and he was pretty much a laughingstock as early as the 1960s.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Most interesting exchange of ideas, a few of which make me want to chew gravel.
I have watched a whole bunch of presidents in my time, all the way back to Truman, and I can say with a little smugness that I knew before each election what type of man we would get (or lose, if the public made its frequently bad choice). I knew Nixon was a liar from day one (didn’t take an astronomer to know that) and would ignore most thinking people, and Reagan couldn’t open an umbrella in a drizzle, and Bush would almost certainly be known as the dumbest and most biased president of the last century.
And then Phil says that he is waiting to decide about Obama after he sees his position on science. Phil, that is just plain naive (but then you are half my age, and a nice kid, so I’ll be forgiving, not that you care one whit).
No man or woman elected to the presidency is going to be able to enact their policies to the extent that their backers would like (the closest would probaby have been LBJ), so you judge them on their general level of integrity (Obama ain’t perfect but he is better than his competition by far) and their insights and abilities to listen (intelligence, I think is what we call that).
Obama is the best thing to come along in decades, and I will never expect perfection or some details of a policy to convince me of that.
Anyone who focuses on the Reverend Wright probably wanted a reason to not vote for a black man (yes, yes, so ironic that we call a man who is “half white” black, but that just says something about us, doesn’t it?). If you apply the same standard to everyone, no one could be elected to any office. I’ll bet even Phil Plait has hung out with some pretty nutty people in his time, and yet we don’t dismiss him or ignore his abilities, do we? Of course not.
Now, as for the fellow who talked of moving to another country, I did that after Bush stole home the second time. We just encountered more problems of a new nature, and we were so unable to navigate in a very different society that we lost a ton of money in only a few months. If you are young and have little to lose, I would consider Australia or Europe, but never a third world country. Never.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:27 am
CXB writes:
[[Speaking of the religious- where did all the normal group of Christian nuts who normally frequent these pages disappear to? They seem more than happy to brag about their moral worth and feign indignation whenever the BA dares to bring up a subject like cheesy chips which look like Jesus, or mention the Big Bang. Funnily enough, they’re nowhere to be seen when the BA criticizes a flagrant racist. Imagine that.]]
Maybe that’s because, like me, they don’t post when they have nothing to say? I usually post here on a political or religious topic when I object to the article or to something somebody said in the responses. If I don’t object to the article, why write in? Just to say “Well done, I agree?”
If your assumption is that all Christians are somehow inherently racist and all support Pat Buchanan, then I have to conclude that you’re just as bigoted as Pat Buchanan.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:38 am
James TCA writes:
[[How ironic that on a site dedicated to science, we have what are apparently nothing more than television watchers spewing mindless drivel not grounded in th least bit of rational thought. Without Whites, science would not be where it is today; in fact, most humans would be living in caves or grass huts, banging rocks together to make fire or covering themselves in elephant feces as they currently do in Negroid Africa or in the more primitive Mestizo populations of Central and South America.]]
Sorry, I missed what you said — I was too busy covering myself with elephant feces.
[[ If you don’t want to be White, or show due respect for the White race, that’s fine, but don’t be a hypocrite by using anything more advanced than stone-aged tools. Use your heads — turn off television and pick up an encyclopedia.]]
So your contention, I take it, is that all scientists have been white? Know anything about the weak force? That was Yang and Mills, I believe. The role of neutrino deficits in supernovae? Hong-Yee Chiu. Peanut butter? George Washington Carver. The importance of cell surface reactions in cytology? E.E. Just. Modern astronomical ephemeris tables? Benjamin Banneker. Early advocacy of sustainable agriculture? George Washington Carver. A reliable public health test for syphilis? William Augustus Hinton. (That sure was a better use of science than the one dreamed up by the white scientists of the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, wouldn’t you say?) Large-scale synthesis of steroid hormones? Percy Lavon Julian. Want me to go on?
Most famous scientists have been white because modern science originated in western Europe, which was overwhelmingly white. That’s all the significance that little factoid has.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Oops, I listed George Washington Carver twice. My bad.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:44 am
BA:
Yes, blacks were mistreatment in the U.S. No body denies that. Just as the Indians (and the Cherokee in North Carolina were treated worse than blacks). Like me, you should be old enough to remember water fountains marked “White” and “Colored,” rooms divided by race, blacks forced to sit in the balconies in theaters, and when the idea of a black police chief, much less a mayor, was simply unthinkable.
Yes, it was bad, it happened, it’s over. It’s been over for well over a generation. There’s an entire world of opportunity that was unimaginable just fifty years ago. It is *not* constructive to do like Jessie Jackson did in Albany, Georgia, in 1994 and proclaim that the flooding from Tropical Storm Alberto was “racially motivated.”
Bill Cosby is absolutely right. And remember: he was there when there was a real color barrier. He ran into it and fought against it. And if he can preach the gospel of personal responsibility, then why can’t Buchanan in the quote you posted?
March 29th, 2008 at 7:06 am
KC, acknowledging that people ought to take responsibility for their own lives — a truism — does nothing to mitigate past and present racism.
The problem in America is not racism, it is white racism. For more than one-half of this society’s existence (1619-1865), black people were bought and sold by white people. For most of the remaining history of our society, black people were subject to Jim Crow laws, the economic slavery of sharecropping, ghettoized housing, and the fallacy of separate but equal public facilities. Characterizing that legacy as a gift from white people, or shouting “racism” anytime someone wants to talk about it, is simply vile.
Those of us who have been around for a few years know Buchanan and many others have been spouting this poison for decades. After all, the president Buchanan worked for invented the “Southern Strategy”, the effort to exploit the (unjustified) anger of whites who opposed the expansions of democracy we saw in the 60′s and 70′s. Tragically, this exploitation of inappropriate anger became the central premise of contemporary conservatism.
March 29th, 2008 at 7:16 am
tacitus:
Obama isn’t a cult leader, yet there’s almost a cult-like following of Obama. Yes, it happens with every politician (just watch the rallies of the political faithful), but it seems more pronounced this year.
I don’t think any of the four – McCain, Hillary, Obama, and Nader – really has a clue. I’m too cynical to get excited about any politician, anyway.
March 29th, 2008 at 7:38 am
billg:
A through reply would take too much space. Suffice I was there. I saw the Dixiecrats, how most went back into the welcoming arms of the DNC. I remember how some of the big names in Segregation stayed in the Democrat party. And what I remember helping Nixon the most in 1968 was a law and order campaign (remember what happened at the Democrat convention that year), and George McGovern’s liberalism in 1972.
And yes, slavery happened. If you ever go to Georgia, you can see an actual slave market preserved in Louisville. No one claims that didn’t happen, no one claims it wasn’t bad, no one claims there was no Segregation, or no lynchings, or no voter intimidation. That happened. That’s a part of history. And it’s over. The U.S. is a different place now.
So why would one want to dwell on what *was* and not on how things are *now*? Don’t forget that history, not by any means. But what happened over a generation ago doesn’t – and shouldn’t – define who one is *now.*
Carpe deim. Seize the day. Take full advantage of the opportunities before you. That should be the message we instill in those of all races.
March 29th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Will the day ever come when we DON’T mention color or race in our conversations, news reporting, or intercourse (not speaking of sex here folks) with each other? I doubt it. But, it is a nice dream. I guess I’ll be long dead when we as HUMANS deal with all life-forms without bringing in supposed superiority of self over the inferiority of others. Maybe in some future incarnation I’ll live in a world without prejudice based on groups different in color from myself. As to commentors from other countries – you have the right to opinion, but it means little to those in the USA. You have to live inside the body to be of the body. It’s like an orange having an opinion of the actions of an elephant. Doesn’t make any difference to the elephant. And for all you people with division in your hearts and minds over who will be better at president, be sure to vote. Best way to speak out for or against is to vote. Until them let’s get back to astronomy.
March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
BA wrote:
Frank R, you honestly think he was trying to deflect attention away from his preacher? Really? After making a thoughtful, intelligent speech about that very topic?
And the statements of Buchanan are racist because — and I can’t believe I have to point this out — he’s trying to shift the blame from people like him to blacks.
Yes he was trying to deflect the attention away from his preacher, because it hurt him in the polls. What was so thoughtful and intellegent about the speech?
The reasoning you have used to brand Buchanan a racist reveals your underlying assumption that American caucasians are at fault for the statistics Buchanan cites. I challenge that assumption. Yes, many caucasians participated in the abhorent business of slave trading. Yes, many caucasians continued (and still continue) to attempt to deny the rights of non-caucasians. Those facts, in my reasoning, do not account for the statistics Buchanan cited.
My underlying thoughts are based on personal responsibility. A criminal is responsible for his or her crime. A deadbeat parent is responsible for running out on his or her family. Individual responsibility crosses all races and to assume that because a non-caucasian has been denied rights, their failings are mitigated by the denial of their rights is wrong in my opinion.
The statistics are what they are. We can look for solutions to solve the issues, or we can assign blame. Your post only serves to inflame passions and not move the discussion forward. I think that your usually skeptic standpoint is clouded in the area of politics by your emotions, and your critical thinking is disrupted by those emotions.
Take it easy,
FrankR
March 29th, 2008 at 8:52 am
KC:
Racism isn’t over. It never will be. It’s part of human existence. It’s an act of moral failure.
Exhortations to “seize the day”, to take individual responsibility, are disingenuous. They were disingenuous when slavery, and then the law and white social institutions, deliberately prevented non-white Americans from exercising that individual responsibility. They remain disingenuous today.
Slavery is gone, and the legal restrictions are essentially gone, but their impact continues. Racism continues. White people don’t merit a pass by simply shouting shiney happy platitudes. White Americans cannot be absolved from their own responsibilities for America as it is today by simply asserting that “it’s all better now.”
BTW, Nixon’s law and order campaign was racism transparently packaged. Then, and now, tell a white person about a crime down the street and he’ll assume it was committed by a black person.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:11 am
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120579535818243439.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/post_25.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/obamas_speech.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/race_and_politics.html
Why say in my own words what other people have said better? Obviously I greatly enjoy Thomas Sowell.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Good gravy. How can a group of enthusiasts for the scientific method be so dense?
Be my guest to point out where blacks are better off in their native land than in America.
Be my guest to point out the tremendous reduction in crime that occurs when blacks are the MAJORITY. Oops – it’s not there!
And its about time one or two more of you actually looked up the crime rates in this country. Try http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ . If your “white person” makes the assumption the crime down the street was by a black person, the odds are in his favor by a factor of TEN!
Solutions to this aren’t coming without first finding out what’s going on, and being honest about it. Cultures bring their values to the USA when they arrive, and some of it survives any tendency of ours to mutate it into something else.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:20 am
As much as I hate myself for doing it, I find myself agreeing with white racist propaganda. In my personal experience in guest services (ie. hotel desk clerk) I have found black people (sorry) african americans to be far more racist than white people (euro-americans). As a business employee, I do not see any color difference in your dollars versus their dollars. The hotel I worked for for 10 years was actually sued for discrimination for refusing to sell a hotel room to a mixed race couple. What they failed to mention in their complaint was that the white male half of the couple had been kicked out of the hotel a week earlier as a disruptive person.
I’m drunk
When I’m drunk, I’m stupid and should not post.
I’m drunk and stupid, therefore I ignore my own good advice.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Radwaste, your arguments boil down to the notion that America is a white nation created by white people for white people and that anyone else living here does so at the pleasure of white people.
Your point about crime statistics is irrelevant because those statistics have nothing to do with the reason many whites link “crime” with “black”. And, it certainly has nothing to do with Nixon’s law and order pitch, and its continuing presence in conservative dogma. The reason Nixon campaigned on “law and order” is precisely because he knew it would provide cover for blatantly racist appeals. Politicans campaigning on law and order to white people who they know make the “criminal equal black” equation is an act of racism.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:11 am
So long as humans are limited in their ability to identify with others(monkey brain limits to about 250 people),just so long will we have prejudice. Virtually ALL human mythology begins with a first “man/woman” of ones particular tribe. All others are intuitively seen as “something else/non-human”.
,,,but we’re trying to grow beyond that,,,
Gary 7
March 29th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Addendum:
I work in a retail environment, where we rent space for large gatherings. It has been MY personal experience, that when people of color rent one of our spaces, they do a much better(by at least a factor of ten) job cleaning up their messes than do white, religiously oriented groups.
,,,and don’t get me started on country western gatherings,,,
Gary 7
March 29th, 2008 at 10:21 am
BA:
Why even watch the show? You are supporting “air time for insane people” by doing so.
Also:
Strip what you perceive as bigoted speech and look at the statistics. Is he wrong? If he is, attack the fundamental data he is using to build his message on. If he is not, then look at it and try to understand why the statistics he set forth are accurate. What are the causes? Is it racism, or intra-community factors leading to the result?
Disarming the so-called “insane” rhetoric with calm, measured analysis and discussion forces the conversation to evolve past playground name calling and towards a more mature, truly progressive state.
Finally:
I have only recently subscribed to the RSS feed of your site, and while I find the science-focused articles intriguing, your close-mindedness towards other points of view and beliefs is anti-antithetical to what you are trying to achieve.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I must agree with Vin here. I’m as big of a BA fan as anyone, but this post was quite juvenile and offers nothing to the discussion. The issue here isn’t whether Pat Buchanan is a bad person. The issue here is whether the statements in question are as horribly racist and evil as BA seems to think. I just don’t see it.
Regardless of the severe disadvantages that blacks face in America, it is a fact that their culture is one that often denigrates the value of education. Is that the fault of white people? Maybe it is, but I’d like to see the BA explain how and why, if that is his argument, instead of resorting to the same feigned disbelief and mockery he generally reserves for those more deserving.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Gary:
I agree. Racism is as much a part of us as the impetus to commit murder or rape or larceny. The difference is that acts of racism were mandated by law throught most of the history of the U.S. The repercussions of that still burden us, as we would be burdened if the law had compelled people to commit any other kind of crime for most of 4 centuries.(This isn’t uniquely American, but this thread seems to be.)
Vin:
It is impossible to discuss the lives of black Americans without talking about race and racism. We are the products of our history.
Suggesting that individuals bear responsibility for their own lives does not take racism off the table. Acts motivated by racism are typically intended to prevent the exercise of that responsibility.
I am of the opinion that Buchanan, and others, are simply playing another racist card, which boils down to arguing that blacks don’t take on as much responsibility as whites. I see no more reason to employ “calm, reasoned analysis” with that kind of thinking than I would with one that espoused cannibalism or child abuse. Buchanan’s assertion is racist, it is in keeping with many other statements he has made for decades. The only conversation that needs to happen is one intended to get him to admit that.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:57 am
This site is great–when it sticks to science and astronomy and skepticism, etc. When it ventures into politics, well, that’s a different story. It does provide for some interesting discourse.
Like several other commenters, I too am dismayed by BA’s loss of scientific and analytical clarity when it comes to his political ideas. He seems all too quick to descend to personal attacks, and seems to be unaware of his own personal bias when it comes to interpreting political events. However, it his blog–more power to him, I guess . . .
Is there any difference between Pat Buchanan and Rev. Wright, then? Many are quick here to denounce PB, yet seem strangely silent about Wright.
As far as “White Americans cannot be absolved from their own responsibilities for America,” per billg, how am I responsible for America’s past? My family didn’t come here until the early part of the last century. They were poor, didn’t hold political positions. My grandparents lived in mixed neighborhoods here in the South. I grew up in a similar area, and had friends of all colors. My parents are not racist (unlike many others–white and black–) that I was aware of growing up. I have made a conscious effort in both my professional and personal life to act morally and to teach my children that we are all human beings, not to be judged by the melanin content of the outer layers of our epidermis.
So, am I responsible for the slave trade? Jim Crow? Am I more or less responsible than the Africans who sold other Africans into slavery?
March 29th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Dave D:
1. Politics is not susceptible to “scientific and analytical clarity”. The scientific method does not apply.
2. You are only responsible for what you do and do not do. You and I live in a society shaped and nourished by racism; for most of its history, by laws and custom that criminalized attempts to mitigate racism. Until 30 or so years ago, the law and enforced social convention meant blacks got poor educations, poor jobs, and poor housing. Why? Because racist whites, north and south, made it happen. The southern city I live in is still largely segregated because the law kept blacks from moving where they wished. The midwestern city I grew up in remains just as segregated because local realtors, banks and insurance firms enforced de jure segregation. Parallel statements can be made about education, employent, etc. The linkage is uncontestable.
Although it is a fact that laws passed a few decades ago made those things illegal, the repercussions of 350 years of mandatory racism can’t be expected to vanish in a few years. How much responsibility you wish to assume for helping to clean up the mess that remains is something you will need to determine.
Finally, I have to say that because racism is a constituent part of human behavior, we all have a responsibility to recognize it and to thwart it, just as we do other criminal and immoral behavior. The obvious fact that we did not participate in the slave trade or that we were not alive during the Jim Crow era does not absolve us of our responsibility for dealing with the racism that exists today or the impact of past racism. To argue otherwise is tantamount to arguing that those whose ancestors were never victims of crime have no responsibilty for fighting crime today.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
billg:
“It is impossible to discuss the lives of black Americans without talking about race and racism. We are the products of our history.”
I agree – to a point. We (society – all races) need to first come to an agreement that, yes, things were horrible and we need continually work to prevent it from happening again. It was an embarrassing era for our country.
However, take race out of the equation and look at an issue such as the gaps in educational achievement. Why do gaps exist? What are the differences in schools that succeed vs. others that struggle? Perform the analysis without accounting for race. Objectively assess all factors – except race. If one can eliminate all other factors (i.e. funding, teacher quality, etc.) and thus leave race as the only factor, then citing racial discrimination and/or racism as the cause or contributing cause may be valid.
“Suggesting that individuals bear responsibility for their own lives does not take racism off the table. Acts motivated by racism are typically intended to prevent the exercise of that responsibility.”
Again, racism should be acknowledged, but I do not believe in the society we live in today that it (racism) truly has the power to oppress on a systematic scale. Does it happen at the individual level? I am sure it does. Does that happen often enough to negate the need for personal responsibility. I do not believe so. It takes personal responsibility in itself to combat racist incidents and work past them. Getting mired in racism as an excuse in today’s society is demonstrative of a lack of personal responsibility and succumbing to external obstacles. If we were having this conversation 40+ years ago, society did support racist actions to the point where it systematically damaged the minority community. I just do not see that happening today.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I am horrified, stunned, and bitterly disappointed at the waves of self-justifying, racist CRAP being spewed here. But I am relieved that most (if not all) comes from a wave of new posters. Did Stormfront link to here?
But I should have expected it. I have recently read a columnist expounding on how Americans simply cannot handle criticism of America. For example, many call it “unthinkable” that America could have done anything at all to inspire terrorist attacks against its people. And when things are “unthinkable”, it really means that something is being censored. And that is truly “unAmerican”, isn’t it? Freedom of speech, and all that?
So maybe this discussion isn’t entirely about race, it’s about (mainly white) Americans refusing to consider the fact that something, anything, is anything less that perfect in America.
Wake up and smell the coffee, you ignorant jingoists. Racism, genocide, exploitation and treachery have been part of America since the first humans crossed the Baring Straight. Just like in every other nation in the world.
America is not unique or Utopian. Get over it.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Stuart:
“Wake up and smell the coffee, you ignorant jingoists. Racism, genocide, exploitation and treachery have been part of America since the first humans crossed the Baring Straight. Just like in every other nation in the world.
America is not unique or Utopian. Get over it.”
What country do you live in? Once we know, we can invade it, oppress its people and take their stuff. Once we have said stuff, we can then deny certain members of the homeland access to the booty and reserve it for our elite.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Addendum:
I am a new poster here, and only so because BA’s disappointingly average commentary inspired me to do so. Having the opportunity to lock my obviously inferior horns with the likes of Stuart though was a bonus.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
billg
I realize that politics and political opinions are very subjective areas, that nevertheless, can be looked at with a certain amount of intellectual honesty and detachment. Although we are all entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts. I may not be making myself clear on this one issue, but I think I echo what a lot of others have commented on.
You are right–I am only responsible for my own actions, and not the actions of others 350 (or even 50, or 35) years ago. You did say that “White Americans cannot be absolved from their own responsibilities for America;” perhaps you are now clarifying that statement. I am not responsible for my country’s disturbing, horrifying past. I can look at that past, and look at the actions of many of its citizens (of all colors) over the last 350 years, and be very proud of what we as a society have accomplished. Is it perfection? Not even close, and it never will be. So should I dwell on the past, or continue to move forward? And moving forward does not mean forgetting or negating what has gone before.
Yes we need a continuing dialog on race in this country, but a dialog involves blacks and whites talking with respect to one another. So, again, what is the difference between Buchanan and Wright? or is it impossible to be a minority and a racist?
March 29th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
And for crying out loud, people! The essence of racism is believing that a person’s personal characteristics (e.g. intelligence) are determined solely or largely by that person’s race.
Next-to bugger-all scientific evidence has ever shown this to be true.
So if Blacks seem to be uniquely unable to better themselves, maybe, just maybe, there is more at play here than just some sort of racial weakness?
Maybe it has to do with having to start from nothing? Racism may have been removed from the law books, and reduced in many people’s minds, but many Blacks in America are still stuck in the vicious circle of poverty and ignorance, that started with their ancestors. And their ancestors were poor and ignorant because Whites deliberately kept them that way!
And of course, there is still lots of racism directed at Blacks. That, too, is a vicious circle. Most Blacks are poorer and less educated than Whites. So Whites look down on them, considering them inferior and unworthy. And deny them opportunities, which keeps them poor and uneducated.
These cycles must be broken, and it will have to be done mainly by Whites, as they have the most money and power at the moment.
So maybe you can think of it like this: It’s not about racism per se, and it’s not about guilt. It’s about a certain group of your fellow Americans who are struggling. Give them a hand, and you not only enable them to enjoy all the benefits of living in America, you also strengthen the entire country – You now have so many more educated and wealthy Americans adding to the economy, which benefits everyone, White, Black, Yellow, Red and Bright Purple.
P.S. Obviously I have used sweeping generalisations in this post. Obviously, a very large number of African Americans have been very successful. But this is just a comment in someone else’s blog. It’s not my blog, and it’s not a scholarly paper: I had to make a point (relatively) succinctly, so I didn’t add endless qualifiers to every statement.
It was most certainly not my intention to insult any Black Americans.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Not a big fan of Buchanan, but I still read his stuff anyway because there is almost always something of value there. His latest piece is harsh, angry, and somewhat one-sided, but it also reflects a geniune strain of white thought in this country that must be heard if this “conversation” on race is going to be real. Whites and blacks both have a lot of looking in the mirror to do if 400 years of racism are going to healed. This can’t be a one-way conversation.
Let us all recall that this conversation didn’t even really start until about 40 years ago, which in sociological terms is practically yesterday. White society has a whole bunch of collective guilt to deal with, and I think it is fair to say that process is underway, a portion of which includes Buchanan’s “untold trillions” spent on helping blacks. There is still lots more to do, but at some point it is not unfair to point out that black society could do better. Expecting “gratitude” at this point is a bit much, but lets not pretend that this problem is to be solved solely by white society.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I presume Vin was being sarcastic. In which case he’s proving my point beautifully. I claim America is less than perfect, so he responds by sarcastically creating an overblown straw-man of my point.
Is this some sort of psychosis with you Yanks? Or is it just the result of generations of propoganda?
March 29th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Stuart:
Yes, I was being sarcastic. Yes, my strawman was overblown just about as much as your assumptions about Americans.
America is not perfect. It is a human endeavor, and thus is and always will be fallible. However, it is my home. On the outside it may look like a one-room shack with plastic windows, but to me I hold a lot of pride in it. I also want to do what I can to make future generations proud of my humble abode so they can get as much enjoyment out of it as I do – which requires that I can continue to be proud of it, but can also look for ways to make it better.
BTW, my one-room shack is painted in red, white, and blue using immigrant labor being paid meager wages under the table.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Dearest Vin.
I’m afraid you didn’t get my point. I did not say your country was any worse than any other. The racism, genocide, exploitation and treachery to which I referred are part of every nation, because as you say, they are all human endeavours. Obviously I didn’t make myself clear enough.
And in my next post, I even made a suggestion on how you can improve your country, as you say you aim to do.
And finally, it is an unfortunate fact that America does have a lamentable tendency to invade and exploit other countries. just like every other country in history that got big and powerful enough to do so with relative impunity. Greece, Rome, Persia, England, France, etc. etc.
As I said before, you are not unique. But you’re not uniquely bad either, and I never meant to imply you were.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Furthermore, while the jingoist mentality of many Americans annoys me greatly, that’s not unique either. “Jingoism” is a word coined by Englishmen to describe a mindset of some of their fellow Englishmen.
And while your first post made me think you had such a mindset, your third made it clear that you are, instead, a thoughtful patriot. I just wish more of your countrymen were.
March 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Wow, some people here obviously did not read the whole article! Folks, Buchanan is a bonafide racist; that he says anything worthwhile is by accident or due to his isolationist views. Do some reading on him.
Tom Marking: You bring up the formerly racist Robert Byrd. Here’s some history you neglect: Byrd was of the old Democratic party of the South – yes, Democrats were the racist party (mostly). Then when Nixon and folks did the Southern Strategy business to get votes in the South, the parties switched ideas and the Republicans became more racist. Well, now you get those Confederate wanna-be secessionists supporting Republicans/conservatives. Look up “Southern Strategy.”
History and Science surely are undervalued in this country! Both prone to the same forces of disinformation.
James TCA: Are you for real? You act like Africa has always been some totally backwards continent. Um, early Egyptian civilization was quite advanced, and no less for astronomy. Egypt is in Africa, you know? Early explorers from Morocco. Slaves who brought over agricultural knowledge to America, notably in rice production. Geesh, some reading is required about early civilizations, no less all of us emanating from Africa.
Uh, thanks BA, for bringing out some truly bizarre comments.
/-:
March 29th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
billg, you’re hallucinating. Yes, America is what it is today because WASPs took it over. That’s why we’re not Mexico, Brazil or Canada, period. But when you say, “those statistics have nothing to do with the reason many whites link “crime” with “black””, I have to wonder what you’re smoking. Do you really think that factor of ten – or more – is indistinguishable to the ordinary citizen? Gee, do you just not watch the evening news in your town?
Asians slam the SAT while blacks fill jails. Be my guest to show that doesn’t happen, statistically, or by any other method you care to name. It’s in the news, it’s in college graduation programs, it’s in court cases all over America. Valid statistics show what really happens.
The ills of any race are inherent. Are we going to claim, now, that certain races are not more prone to blood pressure and sickle-cell disease? We might as well claim that no, black Americans are not black!
INDIVIDUALS may perform, or misbehave, far off the norm for their demographic. The exceptions cited here are proof of that. But the recognition and exercise of individual rights does nothing whatsoever to change the documented behavior of groups of people.
Yes, we must cherish and encourage individual rights and achievement. That does not happen when excuses and lies attend any discussion about how to do that. I, a white man, am the minority on shift at Savannah River Site, and those “other guys” lament the days they could play outside without being shot at and the “gangsta” influence wasn’t glorified. More is going on than people eager to blame someone obvious admit.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Dave D:
I was not clarifying. I meant what I said.
Racism isn’t, as some here assert, a brief embarrassing moment in American history. (Consider the racist presumption inherent in such a claim: First, there is the presumption that America is a white country. Second, there is the presumption that the only emotion coming out of our racist history is white embarrassment, when one would imagine that the victims of racism would be something other than embarrassed. And, third, is the presumption that racism is yesterday’s problem.)
America does not need a “dialogue” between white and blacks, any more than Germany needed a dialogue between Jews and Nazis. Germany needed to stop its racist behavior toward Jews and Gypsies and dozens of other folks. Racist behavior is a crime, exactly like murder, rape, etc. We do not need dialogue between criminals and their victims. We need for people to stop behaving criminally. We do not need little fuzzy chats between whites and blacks. We need to stop racist behavior, period.
Why is it, I wonder, that self-described conservatives who so routinely bash “liberals” for allegedly wanting to do anything but put criminals in jail are, all of a sudden since the Obama speech, jumping on the bandwagon of black-white dialogue, at the expense of punishing racist behavior? Perhaps I’m cynical, but I can’t help but think it is often a delaying tactic.
As for Wright… I don’t think he’s relevant to a discussion about Buchanan. Pointing to Wright’s sermon does not excuse Buchanan. In my opinion, it certainly doesn’t excuse Buchanan from a career filled with similar remarks. (Frankly, though, if God were to damn America, racism would certainly be on top of the list of reasons. Not can I think of any culture that wouldn’t be in the same position.)
March 29th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Radwaste: WASPs did not “take over” America. They built it on the backs of enslaved Africans. The country would not have been created if references to the evil of slavery not been removed from the Declaration and if slavery had not been enshrined in the Constitution.
I am not denying what I see on TV, although I suspect few Americans pay any serious attention to crime statistics beyond scare headlines. I don’t.
However, I am specifically saying that there is an uncontestable linkage between America’s racist legacy and the lives of black Americans today, including crime rates. I am saying that to deny this is to deny reality.
The argument isn’t about statistics. It’s about refusing to acknowledge the influence of the past, and pretending that everything is just hunky-dory because we passed a few laws a few years ago. None of us sprung from newly plowed soil. But, judging from this thread, rather a lot of people think they did.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
“The argument isn’t about statistics. It’s about refusing to acknowledge the influence of the past, and pretending that everything is just hunky-dory because we passed a few laws a few years ago.”
BillG:
To be a bit more precise, those laws were passed over 4 decades ago. At what point will people be allowed to move on? What, specifically, does dwelling on “America’s racist legacy” do to help blacks out of the bad situation that so many are in?
March 29th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Just wait for a few days before the Pennsylvania primary to give Obama your endorsement. The BA bump could be just the thing to put him over the top!
March 29th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
TomInAK:
Move on from what? And why? Are you arguing that Americans today are somehow different than Americans of the past? Are you arguing that our past is something we just need to get over?
I’ve been arging three fundamental points:
1) Racism is a fundamental part of human nature, like the impulse to steal or kill. The potential for racist behavior exists in all of us, just as the potential to commit other crimes exists in all of us. It always has, and always will. There is no more reason to imagine that racism is a thng of the past regardless of the number of laws we pass than there is to imagine that murder disappears when we make it a crime.
2) As practiced throughtout most of America’s history (and in many other societies) racism was legally enforced. Think about what that means. It means it was often illegal to avoid engaging in racist behavior. It was illegal to teach a black to read. It was illegal to sell certain homes to black Americans. It was illegal to allow black Americans into certain schools and certain hospitals. The point is this: The impact of racism in America hasn’t been felt as a sie effect of some kind of benign bias. The impact of racism in America was enshrined from the beginning in its legal and Constitutional framework; that framework not only tolerated racist behavior, it mandated it.
3) All of us are as we are because of history. We cannot claim we can avoid responsiblity for others because we also believe they should take responsibility for themselves. Nor can claim that the simple fact of being alive now acquits us of responsibillty for dealing with the crimimal behavior of those who are dead.
So, to answer your question: I don’t know when white people get to move on, but it isn’t now.
March 29th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
So, did Bushanan *really* say “illegitimacy”? Really? And isn’t it more likely he *really* mean “illiteracy”? And isn’t that just an incredibly ironic blunder? I know I’m enjoying it.
March 29th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
billg:
Disingenuous? The former slave who gave sound advice to my grandfather around 1915 didn’t think it was. The black teachers in the day of Segregation didn’t think it was. The black teachers after integration didn’t think it was. Bill Cosby doesn’t think it is. Are you saying every single one of them was/is wrong?
I lived through the end of the bad old days. I remember what it was like then. I know what it’s like now. Anyone who doesn’t think things have vastly improved doesn’t realize just how bad it was.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Melusine:
Look up the following names:
Lester Maddox
George Wallace
J.B. Stoner
Note their party affiliation. People like Strom Thurmond, who went to the GOP, were an anomaly.
For extra credit, look up the name and the party of the President who enforced desegregation in Little Rock, Arkansas.
Most of what you find online about the “Southern Strategy” is frankly partisan and for a very good reason: the fact that most Segregationists returned from the Dixiecrats into the Democrat party is a huge skeleton in the DNC closet. In general, take blanket statements like that addressed toward any party with a huge crystal of sodium chloride.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Bill:
To answer your question: yes. Americans of today are different than in the past. Social attitudes have changed enormously in the last half century. To ignore this is to be willfully blind.
“Are you arguing that our past is something we just need to get over?”
Yes. Definitely. You didn’t answer my second question, so I’ll ask it again: How, specifically, does dwelling on the past help black Americans better their lot in life? Does it help them get along more harmoniously with their neighbors? Does it make them better, more productive employees? Does it give them more peace of mind? Do black children who are told by black “leaders” that whites have it in for them have a greater chance of success in life?
March 29th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
KC:
It’s disingenuous because expecting black Americans to take individual responsibility has nothing to do with the racism of white Americans. The shortcomings of one person does not excuse the failures of another. What your ancestor was told, or what Bill Cosby says, has nothing to do with white racism, its impact throughout history, or its continuing presence today.
And neither, btw, do your assertions about Nixon’s southern strategy. Nixon deliberately crafted a “law and order’ campaign to appeal to whites who were afraid of the changes encompassed by civil rights legislation. To me, both — Nixon’s strategy and the white fear — were the essence of racism. Whatever some white racist politicans may or may not have done has nothing to do with that.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“Instead of watching the incessant yelling of the talking heads on the cable noise channels, why not tune into PBS on a Friday evening instead for once?”
How do you think Pat Buchanon got his start on television? He’s been appearing on the McLaughlin group on PBS since 1982:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaughlin_Group
Incidentally it was the McLaughlin group that spawned the so called “talking head” format of “commentary” where a group of four to five pundits scream at each other for half an hour.
So guess what, BA et al, your tax dollars are paying to bring Buchanon into American living rooms every week. Isn’t public broadcasting wonderful?
March 29th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
I think, if you’ll check, you will see that very little of the funding of a typical PBS station comes from tax dollars.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
OK, boys and girls, who do you think said this:
“Black Americans were a founding population. Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That’s not a very pretty reality of our founding.” As a result, “descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that.”
Here’s the link: http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768
March 29th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Bill:
It was probably the same person who talked about ” . . . the enormous progress that has been made by the efforts of blacks and whites together, to finally fulfill those principles.”
March 29th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
TomInAK:
I’m not denying the progress. I’m just denying that everything is just fine, or that racism isn’t an issue. It is the issue.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Bill,
Well, acknowledging progress is a step in the right direction.
I apologize if I come across as trying to badger you, but have you given any thought to my question about the utility of dwelling on this stuff? I ask this because it seems to me that stewing about America’s past and convincing yourself that the system is rigged against you because of your skin color is probably a good way to insure an unhappy and unproductive life. (I’m using “you” generically, not about billg specifically)
Anyway, I’m off to run a few errends & will check back later on.
March 29th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Autumn,
“Jim, asians came here as labor. Not as slave labor. Their servitude, while a tragic example of market economics debasing human lives, is not in the same league as the wholesale enslavement of a large percentage of the population.”
Nobody argues that it is the same. You are missing the point, what is in the past is in the past, we cannot change it today, can we? And today, blacks can do anything they want to do as evident by those who are black and do extremely well in this country. Again, are they the luckiest people in the world? Did they win a lottery or something? Of course not.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Billg,
“OK, boys and girls, who do you think said this:
“Black Americans were a founding population. Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That’s not a very pretty reality of our founding.” As a result, “descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that.”
Here’s the link: http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768”
LOL! Right, right…clearly Obama, Oprah, Rice, Powell, Clarence Thomas, Jordan and whole bunch of other folks are still suffering from “the chains.”
What kind of a head start Asians, Russians, Germans, Polish, Japanese, Jews, Italians, etc got when they got into this country? They could not even speak English, that is the start that they’ve got, oh, and they were discriminated just as much if not more in some cases than the blacks. Yet, they got their sh*t together as a community, and are doing well in this country. Why didn’t they just seat around blaming everything on white Americans?
March 29th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
TomInAK:
I don’t think I’m dwelling on anything. I don’t accept that racism was a problem for our ancestors. Racism is alive and well today, and will be for as long as humans exist. Ditto the impact of the racism of our parents and their parents. Technology may see progress, but people remain the same.
Jim: Could it be because “Asians, Russians, Germans, Polish, Japanese, Jews, Italians” were not enslaved? Because people with black skins are easier targets for white racism than people with white skins?
I’m not saying blacks should blame everything on white Americans. But, I’m certainly saying tha white Americans can escape responsibility.
Arguing that blacks, in effect, deserve what they get because you also argue that they haven’t taken responsbility for themselves is to base one racist conclusion on another racist premise.
March 29th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
It’s racist to say that Whites are not responsible for Black failings? I’d really like that clarified.
When it comes to race a lot of so-called sceptics seem to turn into religious nutters holding the equality of races as a universal truth despite all evidence. If it wasn’t for ‘institutional racism’ the African tribes would have developed great empires and technology on par with Europe and Asia.
“There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so.”
– James D Watson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin's_Fallacy
March 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
billg–
Let me ask you once more: is it only white racism that is alive and well today, or do you believe that blacks and other people of color cannot be racist?
Oh, and sorry–you are most certainly dwelling on this issue.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Dave D: Read my comments. I’ve repeatedly said racism is a universal human characteristic.
Of course, black racists exist in this country. So do Japanese, Chinese, Navajo, and whatever, racists. Racism is as natural to humanity as desire and lust and anger.
But, the point in this country is that whites enslaved blacks, not the other way around. We all suffer from the legacy of white racism. I think that it’s possible to differ about the scope and impact of that legacy, but I don’t believe that a rational person can deny it exists.
Attempts to redirect the focus, to argue that if any evidence of black racism can be found that critiques of white racism are null and void are, as I’ve said, disingenuous.
If I am dwelling on this issue, that’s as it should be. It has been the core domestic problem in America throughout my lifetime, and will continue to be so.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Robbie:
I, for one, have never never used the phrase “white guilt” here. It isn’t about guilt. It’s about being responsible for dealing with the world as it exists today and understanding how it got that way.
I don’t feel guility about the things my ancestors did, but I do feel responsible for my own actions today. If I deny our history and our reality as I’ve experienced it, then I’m avoiding that responsibility.
The rest of your comment, frankly, strikes me as talk show mish-mash, premised on the silly assumption that any admission that racism exists in this country is an unpatriotic attack on this country.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
There wasn’t any rest of my comment. It was simply Thomas Sowell articles and one from Shelby Steele. I don’t see how it was talk show mish-mash. Please explain.
Although I must say that white guilt is something that is never mentioned among white liberals. It is understood by people such as Shelby Steele and Thomas Sowell. To me though it is evident by the actions of white liberals. This is exactly what Geraldine Ferraro was referring to, and got called a racist.
March 29th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
billg–
“But, the point in this country is that whites enslaved blacks, not the other way around. We all suffer from the legacy of white racism. I think that it’s possible to differ about the scope and impact of that legacy, but I don’t believe that a rational person can deny it exists.”
As far as I can tell, no rational person denies its existence.
“Attempts to redirect the focus, to argue that if any evidence of black racism can be found that critiques of white racism are null and void are, as I’ve said, disingenuous.”
Again no one is saying that just because there is black racism that critiques of white racism are null and void. All I am saying (and I suspect that many people black and white would agree with me) is that ALL RACISM IS BAD, and should be denounced and shunned by our society, no matter what its source is. That means there is no excuse for white racism or black racism or Asian racism or whatever.
The burden of the legacy of racism in this country is shouldered primarily by whites–that is our country’s unfortunate history. That cannot be changed. That legacy has vastly improved, thanks to the efforts of many segments of our society. I don’t think any rational people in this country deny our history. And I would challenge you to show me where a reasonable person believes that denying racism exists today is an unpatriotic attack on this country. Your statement “I don’t know when white people get to move on, but it isn’t now” is troubling, because if this is the foundation from which we will try to climb out of this quagmire, we are doomed to forever wallow in it.
No more blame. End racism from all sides. Everyone is accountable for our progress now, even if one group is historically burdened with our racial divide.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Billg,
“Jim: Could it be because “Asians, Russians, Germans, Polish, Japanese, Jews, Italians” were not enslaved? Because people with black skins are easier targets for white racism than people with white skins?”
Again, why live in the past? Do we have slaves today in US? It is pretty easy to target Asians, Russians, Jews, etc., in fact they were targeted, weren’t they?
Jews, for example, were enslaved and they went through holocaust, why aren’t they seating around blaming the Germans and Egyptians?
“I’m not saying blacks should blame everything on white Americans. But, I’m certainly saying tha white Americans can escape responsibility.”
Okay, fair enough, but what exactly are you saying? Are you white American? If you are, what responsibility are you ready to accept and how is it going to change anything?
“Arguing that blacks, in effect, deserve what they get because you also argue that they haven’t taken responsbility for themselves is to base one racist conclusion on another racist premise.”
I never said that they deserved to be enslaved. Nobody deserves that, of course. I said, that they should stop living in the past, put the blame game aside, and take responsibility (just like everyone else) for what they do today. Today, they are not slaves and have more than enough opportunities to be a productive part of American society.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Dave D,
“The burden of the legacy of racism in this country is shouldered primarily by whites–that is our country’s unfortunate history.”
Oh, really? Pass the dubbie, Dave D, it is not cool not to share.
You are not serious, are you? Without going into too many examples, let me ask you just one question. Why are Spanish California gangs killing each other? Specifically, why is The Mexican Mafia gang is at war with Nuestra Familia gang? Let me give you a hint, it is not because one likes apples and the other likes oranges.
Have you ever heard how black people in US routinely refer to each other and how they speak of white people? Oh, sure, it is okay for them to say that because they are black, but only white people in this country are racist. Right, that makes a lot of sense. Not!
March 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
I just want to announce that, according to some posters here, as well as Buchanon’s original article, I, having in the past benefited through the use of government aid programs, am black.
I never knew this about myself, but I should have seen the warning signs when my wife pointed out the Earned Income Credit on our tax forms. If only there had been the appropriate parenthetical “to be taken if you are irreparably black, as none of the tens of millions of working-class whites in the country will stoop to actually admitting that they have less money than others”!
After the birth of my son, I hastily signed up for the WIC program…Little did I suspect that it was another example of my greedy hold on the unlimited government teat! How could I have been so foolish? Vouchers to be traded for almost seventy dollars worth of milk and juice every month? Why, my wife and I could now quit our full-time jobs and solve the problem of the cost of day care!
Instead, we foolishly chose to pay down some debt, and now we own a home. Wistfully we look back to the happy times we spent at the generous font of wealth that is the American welfare system. Tens of dollars per month, yet we still chose to work. Why?
Wait a minute, one of my neighbors is black!
As I said, I’m black too…
Oh noes! I livz in da gettoz!!
March 29th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Billg,
“I, for one, have never never used the phrase “white guilt” here. It isn’t about guilt.”
You have not, but that is what thing whole brouhaha is all about, isn’t it?
“It’s about being responsible for dealing with the world as it exists today and understanding how it got that way.”
Exactly, “today” is the operative word here. So, since you are not racist, how are you responsible today for the problems in the black community? And why do you feel responsible but you do not seem to think that the black people should take responsibility for what they do today and get their stuff together?
“I don’t feel guility about the things my ancestors did, but I do feel responsible for my own actions today. If I deny our history and our reality as I’ve experienced it, then I’m avoiding that responsibility.”
Who said anything about denying history? Your responsibility today is to be an upstanding citizen. A black person has an exact same responsibility, don’t you think? In fact, if you talk to responsible black people, they will tell you that they do not want your or my help. That’s right, they find it demeaning and in fact racist, which it is, of course, because it suggests that they are somehow inferior and cannot make it on their own.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:25 am
Ok, I just crawled out of bed and I’m still about 3/4 asleep so I’m not thinking clearly yet but, are you suggesting that all the things he says (without providing sources for any of his numbers) are white America’s fault?
Granted I grew up in white suburbia and went to a average white suburbia public middle school and public high school but I never saw anyone tell a black studen they couldn’t take a certain class or try out for certain extra curricular activities because they were black. heck, the senior class president in my white suburbia high school was a black kid. I would love to know what opportunities I as the average middle class white kid, was given that those black students where not.
Was it the right to choose whether or not I listened and applied myself in classes in an attempt to learn and better myself? Do students of different non-white races not have that choice? Or can we just blame black America’s below average test scores on white teachers who don’t want to teach them.
How about getting into colleges? I had a better chance to get into college because I’m white then my black peers right? Actually, no. My (black) high school guidance councilor told me flat out that with my grades, if I was black he could have helped me get a scholarship to just about any school I wanted to go to but as a white kid I would more then likely have to resort to loans. It seems that I was an average student with average extra-curricular activities and my dad made to much money for me to qualify for most grants and scholarships. He did not however, make enough to pay for me to go to anything better then a averge junior college without getting saddled with mountains of college loans.
How about jobs? A few years ago one of the major chains opened a ritzy hotel near a primarily black inner city neighborhood. I’m thinking it was in Detroit but I could be wrong. It’s been a few years so the details are kind of fuzzy. After the grand opening some of the people who lived in that inner city neighborhood filed a law suit against the hotel because out of the several hundred employee’s they hired they only hired 2 black people. They got thier day in court but the hotels lawyers showed up with all of the job applications and resume’s the hotel had recieved and it turns out that only two black people had applied for jobs in the hotel and both were hired for possitions as head of thier respective departments. Is it really white America’s fault that the people in that poor inner city neighborhood didn’t get offered jobs at that hotel?
I am sorry but I believe that we make our own destiny. The collor of your skin doesn’t make you any more or less likely to excel at any particular task. It doesn’t make you more or less likely to be able to learn. In short, it doesn’t matter at all. What does make a difference is the environment in which you are raised. If your whole life long you hear people like Rev. Al and Rev, Jackson telling you you are a victim then you will believe you are a victim. You will teach your children that they are victims. Your children will believe that the opportunities some people have aren’t available to them when in fact, the primary thing holding them back is thier victim mindset.
Yes, racism does happen. It sucks but it happens and I don’t think it will ever go away completely. There will always be one more idiot out there with a swastica tatoo’d on the back of his head to remind us that not all people are intelligent and reasonable. I honestly believe though that the greater majority of people just don’t care what race you are because it really doesn’t matter.
Race aside, at what point should people start taking responsibility for thier own actions and position in life?
As an aside – I think Pat Buchanan is an idiot too.
[/Flamesuit on]
March 30th, 2008 at 5:42 am
One more thought on something someone typed above:
“Jim: Could it be because “Asians, Russians, Germans, Polish, Japanese, Jews, Italians” were not enslaved? Because people with black skins are easier targets for white racism than people with white skins?”
I know very few people on this board would take the bible as a factual document (myself included as one of those who doesn’t) but some of it is based in verifiable history. What exactly was the story with Moses leading his people to the promised land? I was under the impression that he was leading them out of slavery by the Egyptians.
So now we have an example of an African nation holding white slaves. I’m white so maybe I should blame all of my problems on Egypt and start screaming for reparations. What is the statute of limitations of slavery?
March 30th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Some of the worst and most ruthless slave traders were from African tribes who saw other tribes as little more than dog meat. That doesn’t alter the fact that it’s an abomination to enslave anyone, but it is a fact that it happened then and horror of horrors, slavery still happens now (psychologically as well as physically). That friend’s is why there are wars. One cannot go to war with someone who one has great respect for. One cannot vandalise a friend’s home.
Fortunately the readers of this blog will already be very conscious of their fellow human being’s worth which is why we can discuss things, but the caveman still surfaces, even amongst intellectuals, when people become angry at views that don’t quite match their own conclusions. You all know that the same experiment can be viewed in different ways and that it doesn’t necessarily make one person’s results “wrong” when compared to another, the different perspectives give us a better chance of seeing the “whole”, to understand the complete picture.
It is a fact that the ills of the world, of society, are not all evil white mans fault but rather the fault of a state of mind across all nationalities (nationalities being as silly a way to divide humans as drawing lines on a map and calling it territory). The fact is that despite our amazing technological advances we are still in caves when it comes to growing up psychologically. On the whole we have barely changed in that regard, generally speaking. Just see what happens when fuel or food is in short supply.
When a human being is incapable of given meaning or value to that outside of the “me” then there is a problem.
We for our part are required (if we care) to develop our sense of connection to all of our fellow beings, creatures, minerals etc, realising intellectually as well as emotionally that we are in fact all connected, a part of a whole mechanism that, in the same way that a red corpuscle appears separate yet at the same time is an integral part of the whole, makes up what we are and is what “the world” is. We are “society”.
The bottom line is that how we are with each other is what society is to others! It’s what others see when they look out the window at the world, us, so to change society we simply start with us. That’s our responsibility and the only bit we can actually truly change to make a difference. Trying to force change in others is just not possible. It too is slavery of a psychological variety.
We cannot cure the ills of society without =everybody’s= cooperation.
The quote at the top of the blog about it being the black community’s responsibility is NOT wrong, but it certainly is only a part truth. The fact that the person who said it may be a sandwich short of a picnic is a problem admittedly because quite often a single truth can be used as a carrier wave for a whole bunch of total nonsense, but we must be careful to not get sidetracked into small minded prejudice when discussing it. We mustn’t let our emotional cave men and women surface stopping us from seeing a valid point.
As far as I know even mad men can have insight. The truth may be tainted by its source but it can still be useful.
Sorry it’s such a long post.
March 30th, 2008 at 8:26 am
March 30th, 2008 at 10:01 am
When those that colonise Mars have been there a hundred years and developed green skin then perhaps we’ll all unite and fight them instead! They’ll hate us because we are primitive humans so it should be a good one.
Yay! Global unity at last!
(There is a serious point hidden in the above).
March 30th, 2008 at 11:51 am
KC said:
You left out the shift of the parties and their supporters. There is no dispute that the Democrats during slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, etc. were the majority racist party, and it was mostly Southern Democrats at fault. Republicans then and into the 1960s did more to stop slavery, lynching laws, etc. When FDR was in office, black people began to drift to the Dems for economic reasons – this too happened during LBJ’s term. Then LBJ pushed through the Civil Rights Act (along with much Republican support). But the shift of black support of Republicans to Dems continued to shift, especially in the South due to Goldwater’s campaign along with economics. The white Southern racists started to shift to the Republicans. The Southern Strategy, first mainly employed by Nixon, was used to gain votes of the Southern Democrats who were racist. Wikipedia’s entry here is not bad in discussing this.
It isn’t a huge skeleton in the DNC closet because these shifts in the parties are well-understood. It’s like saying the Founding Fathers have huge skeletons in their closets while they held slaves. We know that. Both parties have past/latent racists, though it’s safe to say that the Republicans have more supporters than the Democrats in this regard and have exploited race in campaigns in fairly ugly ways. Well, I see some of that now on the part of Clinton(s) too, it seems, though some might get on me about that, I’m not convinced otherwise. Politicians switch parties for whatever strategical means necessary to win. If a voter bloc moves, so will they. Byrd is all over the place in his voting record, and didn’t do much to dispel his repuation during Bill Clinton’s terms, though he did oppose Iraq most recently.
Anyway, there are the real issues and how politicians use them.
Robbie: FDR’s New Deal programs brought in “welfare” type programs and they were for everybody. Social Security has done fine for years and most likely would not if privatized like so many other things. The “free market” isn’t always so free.
Tom Marking: Your comment about PBS was childish. Please don’t watch NOVA if you’re going to complain about someone who got his start on PBS. I like my tax dollars going there. (-:
March 30th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
There is little more I can say as to the dearth of logic than to repeat this: “WASPs did not “take over” America. They built it on the backs of enslaved Africans.”
Those terms aren’t in any way exclusive; in fact, they back my assertion. England won what is now America in contests with the French and Spanish, and assorted other powers, all of whom shipped labor here. Fortunately for those slaves betrayed by their own people, the industrial revolution and the continued efforts of a culture based on a moderated authority produced, not only a continuation of the industrial revolution, making the sweat of their brow less necessary, but the expansion of the rights guaranteed by the Constitution to cover them as well.
There is no example of an educated culture without a servile class. You who teach, who research, who opine about the nobility of all men might forget that the harvesting of your food and the raw materials for your instruments is an energy-intensive effort, which would deny you the luxury of spare time for thought if you had to do it for yourself.
March 30th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
BA you give more press to insane people than..uh..well you do give press to insane people. People most of us wouldn’t even consider taking seriously for a second.
It gives you meaning and revenue. Same deal with them.
March 31st, 2008 at 10:58 am
Regarding the race stats, all he did was tell the truth even though it isn’t the Polically Correct thing to do. I applaud it. At least someone in the news is telling the truth. http://www.goodoleboybumperstickers.com
March 31st, 2008 at 11:06 am
Funny, I agree with some things being said here, other things I’m reading lead me to believe that a few of you are nutbars.
The most ironic part of this thread is the title: Can we please stop giving air time to insane people?
Regardless of which side of the argument(s) you fall on, someone else undoubtably believes you’re insane.
So… who decides the level of insanity that justifies the revocation of YOUR right to free speech? And if enough people WANT to listen to an insane rant (subjective measurement), who has the right to say it shouldn’t be from the largest stage possible?
I get a little freaked out when I see a situation developing that is akin to ‘Freedom of Speech is great; as long as it agrees with my world view.’
If you don’t like what Buchanan, Cosby, or even BA says, don’t subscribe to their beliefs.
Just a thought…
March 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
I’m glad to see you getting back to your roots. It’s the political posts you really shine at, especially the ones such as this where you just hold stuff up and snicker at it, or the other recent post where you tell us which to donate money to. These are the interesting posts. It’s not all those tedious posts where you explain science and stuff. And it’s not all those posts with the silly pictures of planets and things. Nobody wants to see those.
After all, this *is* a politics blog, right?
March 31st, 2008 at 1:56 pm
“Your comment about PBS was childish. Please don’t watch NOVA if you’re going to complain about someone who got his start on PBS. I like my tax dollars going there. (-:”
I’m not the one who is complaining about Pat Buchanon who appears on PBS every week. I’m not the one shouting “Can we please stop giving airtime to insane people!”. If Buchanon is insane then it is PBS that is giving him airtime. I suggest those of you you despise Buchanon take your argument up with PBS.
“So… who decides the level of insanity that justifies the revocation of YOUR right to free speech?”
A more basic question is: Who decides who is insane? Always remember, from their point of view you are the insane ones. A daily mantra of the Michael Savage radio talkshow is “Liberalism is a mental disorder”.
March 31st, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Just read about this in my local newspaper over the weekend. If Pat Buchanon is a nutzoid racist then what about Al Sharpton? Here is the latest Sharpton insanity:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/5659159.html
“Three weeks ago, however, the Rev. Al Sharpton and local representatives of the NAACP held a news conference in West Palm Beach where they declared that four black teenagers arrested for the Dunbar Village attacks are being treated unfairly because they remain jailed without bail, while five white teenagers recently accused of sexually assaulting two white girls in nearby Boca Raton, Fla., were freed on bail.
“You cannot have one set of rules for acts that are wrong and horrific in Boca and another set in Dunbar Village,” Sharpton said, as parents of some of the Dunbar defendants nodded. “You must have equal protection under the law.”"
Now here is what the 4 teenagers in the Dunbar case are accused of doing:
“A 35-year-old Haitian immigrant and her 12-year-old son were forced into their home at gunpoint in the bleak Dunbar Village housing project in West Palm Beach, Fla. The woman was beaten, raped and sodomized, allegedly by a gang of black American teenagers, then forced to abuse her son. The attackers doused the victims with household chemicals â?? pouring them into the boy’s eyes â?? and attempted to set the pair on fire before fleeing.”
“In the Boca Raton case, the five white teenagers are accused of sexually assaulting two middle school students after the group of seven engaged in a night of drinking. The Dunbar defendants, by contrast, face felony counts for the torture and gang-rape that could send them to prison for life.”
BTW, Sharpton has a nationally syndicated radio talkshow:
http://www.sharptontalk.net
Can we please stop giving airtime to insane people?
March 31st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Funny, those of an opposing viewpoint would say that YOU’RE the nutjobs who need to be censored… yet you maintain that we should stop giving people YOU don’t agree with an outlet for their viewpoint.
I’m coming to the inescapable conclusion that most skeptics are sheep, believe what they are told, and will do whatever it takes to silence a dissenting opinion.
I tend to agree with a lot of skeptic viewpoints, but I regret to inform you that the vast majority of ‘skeptics’ do not engender the definition of the term. I’m happy for BA, Skeptic Magazine, and James Randi. They seem to have created their own brainwashed cult… very similar to Christianity and the Republican party, just with a different agenda.
If you have to ask, yes I’m talking to you.
Hypocrisy is hilarious.
M.R. Ellis
“I’m here, and I’m not going away.”
April 2nd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
“Can we please stop giving air time to insane people?”
No, give them all the airtime they need to show intelligent people just how disgusting & hypocritical they really are. The recent wave of racist apologetics Obama’s speech has spawned across the Web is likewise very salutary. Enjoyable, no, but helpful, indeed.
Think about it. Previously, these idiots would’ve been sneaking around in each other’s basements or meeting in the dead of night in abandoned barns to spew their nonsense – now, they foolishly post it on blogs for all to see, where it can be immediately screencapped for posterity, permanently – even if they later try to hide it by deleting it.
The Malkins, Coulters & Limbaughs unwittingly function as de facto societal T-cells, revealing the true extent of the ignorance & intolerance they espouse. Their defenders are inexorably painting themselves into a corner with every new comment. The Web does not forget. Every last one of these self-righteous clowns now has a soapbox from which to wilfully convict themselves of First Degree Stupidity – so let them.
History will judge the Pat Buchanans & Jerry Falwells, & it will not be gentle about it. Their own words & actions will condemn them far more ruthlessly than the invective of their critics.
This is exactly why free speech is so vitally important, & why the first form of speech that needs defending is the very speech that turns the stomachs of reasonable people everywhere. That speech, unbeknownst to its sources, is in its way the most important & ironically, educational of all.
You cannot diagnose a disease you can’t detect.
April 2nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Jim?
That was beautiful.
Seriously. You nailed it.
Call it ‘Topical Darwinism’.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:30 am
> Is it really white America’s fault that the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?
> Is that the fault of white America
so he claims that WHITE dropout rate is above 50 percent in MOST of the cities?
April 28th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Very interesting website.
A few tacit observations. Firstly of course, there is the consensus here that Pat Buchanan is “insane” (vis-à-vis the title) and should be silenced for daring to have an opinion.
He is an “ignorant” and should be denied his podium.
Insane. Ignorant. Silenced. Denied.
This theme cascades through the comments. Just perusing casually I picked out a well punctuated post by “Jim”, who implies that anyone ignorant enough to support these kinds of racialist views is naturally a bigoted barn-Nazi or something. Oh, and of course proverbial “free speech is vital” clause, in spite the threats censorship theme. That’s a nice touch.
There’s just one thing missing here guys. Proof.
Proof?
Ah but the author of this piece and presumably the owner of this website doesn’t need proof. This type of “racist rubbish” was defeated in the 60s after all. Why should he indulge Mr. Buchanan? He rests in the bosom of majority opinion; far more convenient to simply slur him with “nutsoid” for the extra traffic. Righto, and lets silence him for good measure. +1 for freedom loving Americans everywhere.
It’s a simple as three assertions guys, disprove them and discredit Pat Buchanan.
Two-thirds of Blacks are born as bastard children.
Half of Blacks in select cities are dropping out of school.
None of the above is White America’s fault.
Colorful language, ad-hominums and regurgitated buzzwords mean nothing. Feelings are nothing. Facts are everything.
Can you discredit Pat Buchanan? Or do you comfort yourself with group-think?