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	<title>Comments on: Creationist compromise</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Stick figure science contest! &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-171962</link>
		<dc:creator>Stick figure science contest! &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-171962</guid>
		<description>[...] So, can you do better than this? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So, can you do better than this? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82737</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82737</guid>
		<description>FWIW, catching up on old threads:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
However, it is not quite correct that this is a purely Christian idea (that there is a natural hierarchy). In fact, this is a very ancient idea and common to a great many philosophical frameworks.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, I related the recent history for brevity.

I think for example Epicuros said something similar. His teachings was repressed by the early church, but later adopted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, catching up on old threads:</p>
<blockquote><p>
However, it is not quite correct that this is a purely Christian idea (that there is a natural hierarchy). In fact, this is a very ancient idea and common to a great many philosophical frameworks.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I related the recent history for brevity.</p>
<p>I think for example Epicuros said something similar. His teachings was repressed by the early church, but later adopted.</p>
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		<title>By: Frogmarch</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82736</link>
		<dc:creator>Frogmarch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82736</guid>
		<description>here&#039;s my version, with the person holding a blood soaked bible, if anyone is even slightly interested


http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9981/creationistlogicsmdo9.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here&#8217;s my version, with the person holding a blood soaked bible, if anyone is even slightly interested</p>
<p><a href="http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9981/creationistlogicsmdo9.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9981/creationistlogicsmdo9.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Barton Paul Levenson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82735</link>
		<dc:creator>Barton Paul Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82735</guid>
		<description>Jeffersonian, not getting it, writes:

&lt;blockquote&gt;overpopulation - catholicism/mormonism etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s amazing how Catholicism and the LDS caused overpopulation in India and Bangladesh.

&lt;blockquote&gt;pollution - anti-environmental movement has a xtian-based history in the US&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Empty assertion devoid of supporting evidence.  Pollution might more accurately go with the Victorian belief in &quot;progress.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;dictatorship - catholocism, hirohito, etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;Catholicism.&quot;  Is that a dictatorship?  I thought it was a religion.  And Showa-san didn&#039;t really have much power.  It was the democratically elected premier, Tojo Hideki, and his immediate predecessors, who launched the savage attacks on China, Korea, and the USA.

&lt;blockquote&gt;racism - the 3 abrahamic religions, etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Again, just restating your belief does nothing to prove it.  Judaism tells you &quot;Do not oppress a stranger, you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.&quot;  Christianity says, &quot;There is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female, bond nor free, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus,&quot; and sees &quot;elect from every nation&quot; in heaven.  Muslims are white (middle east), black (US, Africa) and yellow (Indonesia, Malaysia).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffersonian, not getting it, writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>overpopulation &#8211; catholicism/mormonism etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s amazing how Catholicism and the LDS caused overpopulation in India and Bangladesh.</p>
<blockquote><p>pollution &#8211; anti-environmental movement has a xtian-based history in the US</p></blockquote>
<p>Empty assertion devoid of supporting evidence.  Pollution might more accurately go with the Victorian belief in &#8220;progress.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>dictatorship &#8211; catholocism, hirohito, etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Catholicism.&#8221;  Is that a dictatorship?  I thought it was a religion.  And Showa-san didn&#8217;t really have much power.  It was the democratically elected premier, Tojo Hideki, and his immediate predecessors, who launched the savage attacks on China, Korea, and the USA.</p>
<blockquote><p>racism &#8211; the 3 abrahamic religions, etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, just restating your belief does nothing to prove it.  Judaism tells you &#8220;Do not oppress a stranger, you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.&#8221;  Christianity says, &#8220;There is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female, bond nor free, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus,&#8221; and sees &#8220;elect from every nation&#8221; in heaven.  Muslims are white (middle east), black (US, Africa) and yellow (Indonesia, Malaysia).</p>
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		<title>By: PD</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82734</link>
		<dc:creator>PD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82734</guid>
		<description>To: Salaam +Shalom = Peace

My original post was an experiment to see what responses I would get for recommending outrageous behavior on the part of a teacher who was anti-ID. I got only a couple of mild rebukes prior to your post. I was pleased to read your post, where I was castigated rather harshly. I think that was a reasonable response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To: Salaam +Shalom = Peace</p>
<p>My original post was an experiment to see what responses I would get for recommending outrageous behavior on the part of a teacher who was anti-ID. I got only a couple of mild rebukes prior to your post. I was pleased to read your post, where I was castigated rather harshly. I think that was a reasonable response.</p>
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		<title>By: Calli Arcale</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82733</link>
		<dc:creator>Calli Arcale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82733</guid>
		<description>Torbjörn Larsson sez:
&lt;i&gt;Third, as already noted, there isn’t any set direction for evolution. That there is a hierarchical ‘natural order’ is an old christian idea called “chain of being” or “scala naturae”. It was replaced by “the ladder of progress” in the teleological idea of “theistic evolution”.&lt;/i&gt;

Correct, and I find that this is one of the most common misunderstandings of evolution: that &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; means that the organisms around today are &quot;more highly evolved&quot;.  Truth is, nature doesn&#039;t work with value distinctions.  It&#039;s quite binary -- you survive or you don&#039;t.  At that basic, savage level, nothing else is important.  Perhaps some of the more thoughtful creationists find that idea too nihilistic to stomach, but frankly, I think most reject evolution before even getting to that point.  (Most, I think, reject evolution because they don&#039;t understand it and are thus more inclined to believe various authorities when told it&#039;s wrong -- especially when those authorities add appeals to their egos, such as the ever-popular &quot;if you don&#039;t believe evolution, then you&#039;re bucking the atheistic scientific establishment that doesn&#039;t care about people&quot;.)

However, it is not quite correct that this is a purely Christian idea (that there is a natural hierarchy).  In fact, this is a very ancient idea and common to a great many philosophical frameworks.  It is essential to many Eastern religions, for instance, and arguably more so than to Christianity.  Consider the ideas of karma and reincarnation.  A great many people on Earth believe that if you live a good life, you will be reincarnated into a better one.  If you live a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a worse one.  If you&#039;re lucky, your punishment will be just moving down to a lower caste (perhaps as low as the Untouchables).  If you&#039;re really bad, you&#039;ll be reincarnated as an animal, with greater misdeeds in this life leading to reincarnation into lower and lower forms of life.

So it&#039;s not really fair to blame Christians for this thinking.  (They just picked it up from existing thinking on the subject, by Jews, Greeks, and Egyptians, the strongest cultural influences on early Christians.)  Indeed, this sort of thinking seems to be very common, and is probably a reflection of our human tendency to sort things into categories, our social need to create a hierarchy (hierarchies are common to many social animals, and create a structure suitable for doing the business of keeping a society running), and of course our vast pride.  Even atheists aren&#039;t immune to this sort of thinking.  All it takes is a little bit too much pride in our species.

(The opposite viewpoint also exists -- that there is a hierarchy, but we&#039;re the worst species on Earth.  This is less popular, for obvious reasons, and while it is rarely the lynchpin of a major philosophy or religion, it does have a certain appeal at times.  Of course, from the perspective of evolution, it&#039;s just as pointless as the idea that humans are the best species, and usually accompanies the same wrongheaded notion that humans are the dominant species on Earth today.)

As far as the OP, I think it&#039;s an excellent summary of the creationist position.  And as a person of faith, I did not feel the least bit insulted by it.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Torbjörn Larsson sez:<br />
<i>Third, as already noted, there isn’t any set direction for evolution. That there is a hierarchical ‘natural order’ is an old christian idea called “chain of being” or “scala naturae”. It was replaced by “the ladder of progress” in the teleological idea of “theistic evolution”.</i></p>
<p>Correct, and I find that this is one of the most common misunderstandings of evolution: that &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221; means that the organisms around today are &#8220;more highly evolved&#8221;.  Truth is, nature doesn&#8217;t work with value distinctions.  It&#8217;s quite binary &#8212; you survive or you don&#8217;t.  At that basic, savage level, nothing else is important.  Perhaps some of the more thoughtful creationists find that idea too nihilistic to stomach, but frankly, I think most reject evolution before even getting to that point.  (Most, I think, reject evolution because they don&#8217;t understand it and are thus more inclined to believe various authorities when told it&#8217;s wrong &#8212; especially when those authorities add appeals to their egos, such as the ever-popular &#8220;if you don&#8217;t believe evolution, then you&#8217;re bucking the atheistic scientific establishment that doesn&#8217;t care about people&#8221;.)</p>
<p>However, it is not quite correct that this is a purely Christian idea (that there is a natural hierarchy).  In fact, this is a very ancient idea and common to a great many philosophical frameworks.  It is essential to many Eastern religions, for instance, and arguably more so than to Christianity.  Consider the ideas of karma and reincarnation.  A great many people on Earth believe that if you live a good life, you will be reincarnated into a better one.  If you live a bad life, you will be reincarnated into a worse one.  If you&#8217;re lucky, your punishment will be just moving down to a lower caste (perhaps as low as the Untouchables).  If you&#8217;re really bad, you&#8217;ll be reincarnated as an animal, with greater misdeeds in this life leading to reincarnation into lower and lower forms of life.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s not really fair to blame Christians for this thinking.  (They just picked it up from existing thinking on the subject, by Jews, Greeks, and Egyptians, the strongest cultural influences on early Christians.)  Indeed, this sort of thinking seems to be very common, and is probably a reflection of our human tendency to sort things into categories, our social need to create a hierarchy (hierarchies are common to many social animals, and create a structure suitable for doing the business of keeping a society running), and of course our vast pride.  Even atheists aren&#8217;t immune to this sort of thinking.  All it takes is a little bit too much pride in our species.</p>
<p>(The opposite viewpoint also exists &#8212; that there is a hierarchy, but we&#8217;re the worst species on Earth.  This is less popular, for obvious reasons, and while it is rarely the lynchpin of a major philosophy or religion, it does have a certain appeal at times.  Of course, from the perspective of evolution, it&#8217;s just as pointless as the idea that humans are the best species, and usually accompanies the same wrongheaded notion that humans are the dominant species on Earth today.)</p>
<p>As far as the OP, I think it&#8217;s an excellent summary of the creationist position.  And as a person of faith, I did not feel the least bit insulted by it.  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dana Hunter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/comment-page-2/#comment-82732</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/14/creationist-compromise/#comment-82732</guid>
		<description>That was awesome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was awesome!</p>
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