http://www.charlespetzold.com/blog/2008/04/Old-Design-Argument-Now-Politicized.html

J/P=?

However, atheism does make an assumption – namely that there would be evidence of a deity on which to base some belief if one actually existed. This is a perefectly valid and logical assumption based upon every other experience we have – but it technically is still an assumption and could be construed as an act of self deception… if you tried really hard. Yeah, it’s thin. Real thin.

Mostly what my choice of not arguing that point was about was avoiding spiraling into an endless and fruitless debate of theism/atheism – something I’ve seen happen all too often to want to be a part of anymore – and instead focus on more potentially fruitful discussion.

says, “I’ll give you atheism – it makes an assumption of the absolute non-existence of a deity… a prospect which by the very definition of a deity is unknowable (how convenient for religion) so I’ll concede that non-belief where the pure logical choice would be no opinion could be seen as self deception.”

BZZT!! I’m sorry that’s incorrect…

Atheism does not say, “I believe there is no God.” Atheism says, “I don’t believe there is a God.”

A-theism: without theistic belief. A lack of belief, not a belief itself.

I would also say that ‘no opinion’ is not the pure logical choice. The pure logical choice in the face of an absence of evidence is disbelief. (When people said that there was no such thing as a black swan, because no-one had ever seen one, they were right to say so at the time. There was no known evidence for black swans so why ‘believe in’ them? Where they went wrong was in further assuming that a black swan Could Not exist – that closed them to the possibility of further evidence.)

***

The 1947 UN partition plan granted 55 % of the Mandate to Israel. By 1970 they had occupied all of it. (& more.) Gaza & the West bank compose 22% of Mandate of Palestine. (Gilbert, 1993 & Reinhart, 2002.)

Palestinian casualties = 3,049
Israeli casualties = 905

(As of 5th July 2004.) Source : ‘Middle East Policy Council website, 6-7-2004.

When Israel launched the aerial attack to assassinate a single Hamas leader, Salah Shehadeh, they also murdered 14 others mostly innocent bystanders incl. children. Can “evil” be fought with “evil”?

Under Israeli rule the following practices are carried out :

- Religio-racial discrimination whereby only one group has certain rights
(Eg. Right of return, Jewish only roads etc..)

- Collective punishment eg. Curfews, humiliating “security” searches, deportations, home demolitions, etc…

- Legalised use of torture.

- Destruction of infrastructure to stall possible implementation of peace provisions. (“De-development”)

- Ethnic cleansing – both historical (1948) & suggested for the future.

- “Ghettoisation / Cantonisation” of certain ethnic populations – the Palestinian “Bantustans” & Sharon’s wall across the West Bank.

Since the creation of Israel in 1948 :

200,000 Palestinians have been killed.
5,000,000 refugees have been created.
21,000 square kilometres of land has been annexed.
385 towns and villages have been destroyed.
300 billion military dollars have been spent.
100 plus WMD’s have been manufactured.
65 UN resolutions have been ignored.

Source : ‘Row over anti-Israel art display’ in ‘The Age’ [Australian newspaper] , 4-5-2004.

***

& three questions for ya’ll :

1) If Israel has a “right to exist” & a “right to self defence” why then don’t the Palestineans have the same rights?

2) Seeing as Israel has the Nuclear Bomb & other WMD’s then why shouldn’t Iran or even the Palestineans have it too? Shouldn’t they too be allowed a deterrent against attack and to be on an equal footing?

&

3) Why is it so goish-durned hard for the West (esp. jews & USA-ite ‘Amercians’ to accept that Palestineans are humans too with the same inalienable human rights and the same needs for love, revenge and fair treatment?

I posted my well-founded opinion of Judaism together with the
very sound and legitimate reasons why I’ve come to those conclusions. Quoting only my conclusions without my accompanying evidence and explanation was a deceptive act on your part.

I could well ascribe such low tactics to Islamophobia & anti-Palestinean
racism on your part and Iamy wellbe right about that. Am I Mr BPL?

How much do you really know and understand about the plight of the
Palestineans?

How much do you really know about what Israel has done and continues doing to them?

Got any Palestinaneans or non-Muslim or non-Jewish /XN friends have you?

Oh & for all apologists of Israel here – just a quick question :

What act of unspeakable evil must Israel committ before you finally
wake up & realise they’re NOT the “good guys” here?

Israel occupies illegally another people’s land, murders, tortures, assassinates its political dissidents and resistence leaders, uses government terrorism and bombings against civilians, allows babies to
die because of their race, imposes instititutional and legal racism, is based
on fundamentalist theocracy thatinsist only two survivingtribe sout of all Humanity areGods Chosen volk, imprisons resistence leaders, invades and attacks itsneighbours and thretens to do so continually, uses collective punishment, violates international law and human rights & tehGneebva Convention, ad nauseam …

When, when when, will the world esp. the Western world say to Israel : ENOUGH!

When will you?

Please try to make it before the last Palestinean has been murdered by them …

————–
As for the Jewish Holocaust (or the Shoah as they call it) the Jewish lobby are quite simply dishonouring and befouling the victims of the Nzais by acting like Nazis themselves. There maybe no gas chambers – yet – but their mindsets all too similar.

Plus incidentally a whole heap of Non-Jews died at the hands of Nazi’s too & no, despite their propaganda otherwise, the Jews are NOT the only people in history to suffer atrocities and persecution – in fact about half the time the Jews are the ones comitting such crimes against humanity! Never again? Well stop blinking doing it then Jews!

“Sabra [Actually BPL its Sabra & Chatilla's Ghosts - I suggest you go
learn some history * & try to understand why I've chosen that tag] writes:

In short, of all the three Abrhamic religions Judiaism is the most primitive, most cruel, least egalitarian and the only one where birth not belief makes you “a jew.” Indeed Judaism is largely a form of racism in itself.

[To which BLP rants] Hey, nice place your blog is becoming, Phil. Do you want to cross-post this stuff on Stormfront, or just let the individual posters do that?”

So BPL is it impossible for you to understand that criticism of Israel’s brutal oppression of the Palestineans can come from anyone other than a
racist – or perhaps aself-hating Jew?

These after all are the only possibilities the Jewish / Israeli apologist / raving neo-con XN Wrong offers people.

Actaully, criticism of Israel is NOT anti-Semitic but based on the reality of the truly horrendous, appalling, sickeningly brutal acts of Israel’s aggression against the Palestineans & Muslim world. (Or even non-Jewish – Goyim -Gentile world in general)

That you or anyone else can even for a second fall for such nonsense is a testament to the ruthless, deceitful efficency of the Jewish fundamentalist extremist /pro-Israel anti-humanity lobby and its well-oiled, well-funded and *very* well practiced liars and spinners.

Its a skeptical website BPL – do try & think independently and fairly
for once …

——————————

* Ok you can research & verify this for yourself but Sabra & Chatilla are thename sof two Palestinean refugee camps in Lebanon where over 800 innocent Palestinean children, men & women were murdered in 1982 in a
massacre for which Ariel Sharon ex-PM of Israel was convicted of responsibility – even by his own legal court!

You’ll get no argument from me!

I used ape in the colloquial sense rather than taxonomic – in my experience I’ve found that to the average person who has a flawed understanding of evolution ape is a word that covers everything from monkeys to gorillas. If I can get them to pick up a book on the subject then my fudging of the terms will be cleared up soon enough. After all, no need to fog up an already complex subject by confusing somebody on terminology that, while technically incorrect, is at least mutually understood.

Hough,

You’re certainly not causing any arguments around here! The gracious host of this site has dedicated much of his life to scientific education – so I feel that when I contribute to the forum I should be doing the same. You came here with a clear willingness to listen to what was being said and that is always welcome and frankly refreshing considering some of the visitor who pop in now and again. I do hope you take the time to become better educated on the subject as it is one of increasing importance to our society. If you choose to post again I would be happy to see you do so but I understand if you choose not to.

Oh, and Shane… sorry to dissapoint! I’ll try to be more offensive next time!

I think your explanation of Hough’s misunderstanding of evolution is also a little off the mark. There wasn’t a common ancestor of humans and apes because humans *are* apes. There was a common ancestor of humans and chimps, and of humans, chimps and gorillas, and of all apes, including humans, among many sub-branches of the tree of life. Also, the notion of “choice” plays no role in evolution, at least in the sense of “choice of direction”. (Of course, choice does play an important role in such things as sexual selection, and when a group of animals decides to go over that hill to the next valley to see if there is more food over there, versus staying put or going off in another direction, or trying to eat roots instead of fruits, or the billions of other events that make up the conditions for differential survival that lead to evolution.)

Some apes (actually, human/chimp ancestors) didn’t decide to remain apes while others decided to become humans. Rather, the human/chimp ancestors living in one environment where more likely to survive and produce more descendants if they were more chimp-like, and those in another environment were more likely to survive if they were more human (or australopithecine.) The environment differences might have been quite small, e.g. one area had lots of trees with scattered grasslands, whereas the other area had fewer trees and more grass. In the grassy areas, taller, thinner animals who were better at scampering between clumps of trees while holding stuff (food, infants, rocks & sticks) in their arms had a survival advantage whereas in the more forested areas, the ones who were better tree climbers had an advantage. (This is speculation, but is the kind of thing that leads, over many generations, to species diverging.)

Salt with a few random mutations that help one group or the other, and a few more that have no real effect, but cause genetic differences, and in a million years, there are two species, one a chimp/bonobo ancestor and the other a human ancestor. Along the way, most likely, several other groups diverge, form new species, and then go extinct. If we are extremely lucky, we might find some fossils of some of them.

Your decision to post or not post here any further is certainly up to you. I may disagree wholly with your beliefs and thoughts on evolution and science, but I have no issue at all with your willingness to engage in the debate and present your side as strongly as you wish… you did so in a respectful and polite manner, and I will always return that approach similarly.

Good luck to you and I truly do hope you take some time to educate yourself on evolution and scientific method in general. A better understanding of the natural world and a scientific approach opens your mind up to wonderous possibilities. This site is a prime example. Just take some time to peruse some of the incredible images and science on display here. It has always blown me away, and I don’t think you have to completely abandon your faith in order to appreciate it.

I agree with both of you, in that in the case where Biblical literalists insist that the Bible is the word of God Himself, even the slightest inferred error is inexcusable. In that you will get no argument from me.

And I guess that is where I’m trying to draw my line… I guess what I’m saying is that once I’ve realized that I am trying to debate with a Biblical realist, I know any rationality or reason has already been thrown out the window, and I simply refuse to engage in any further debate.

My example of “pi” and not using it as an instance of error would be more for the case of the “rational Christian”… one whom believes in God and Jesus but is willing to look at the Bible as something other than literal… We have a few on this site who fall into that category I think.

But I can certainly respect your position that we, as scientists, need not make that distinction, and I agree that it is fair to look at any Biblicalreferences, both direct and inferred, with a skeptical eye. I simply choose to make the distinction depending on the person with whom I am having the discussion / debate.

Hey guys…I promise that I haven’t wanted to start any type of argument because, believe me, that’s not at all what I’m about. I have compassion and REALLY care about people–each and every one of you even though I will never know you. I do understand that many on this site are very concerned with his/her origin. I hope that everyone will be as concerned about his eternity because the latter is of great significance to you personally whether you choose to care or not. Maybe you have never faced true adversity/struggles/tragedy in life, but when you do, I hope that what I have said will surface in your memory.

Pieter, I’m sorry that I’ve offended you. I do not apologize for the message, though. IF SOMEHOW YOU GENUINELY BELIEVED that exposure of your naked body would bring hope to a dying world, I suppose that I would be grateful that you cared.

As Forrest Gump said, “That’s all I have to say about that.” I will not be posting anymore, because my intent is only to help and I do not wish to do anything to the contrary, as mentioned by Pieter.

God bless you all.

The whole Pi thing is amusing. I’m with Celtic_Evolution in that the whole argument is absurd – whether the brim is flared or not that is and whether or not you can infer Pi from that. Just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Using that book to rationalise any argument is definitely argumentum ad absurdum.

You said “Even if you were to take the position of “well, if these were words inspired by God, are God’s words, how can they be in any way mis-interpreted?”. Well, if you’re going to take that position, you are going to have a real hard time defending about 90% of what’s in the Bible. So there’s little point in even trying to have an intelligent debate with a person who takes that stand.”

Huh? Ok, so we’de have a tough time defending 90% of what is in the bible… but that IS the debate. The bible is held up, at a minimum, as a god inspired and guided work and at a maximum as his literal word. So which parts are we to take as inspired (and potentialy flawed) and which parts as literal? I’ve read several versions of the bible and there is no disclaimer at any point in any of them that says : “The following is divinely inspired and may not be 100% accurate due to human error” or “The following is the literal word of god, obey or face the consequences.”

I do agree with you about inferred versus explicitaly stated items in the bible…but I still can’t simply dismiss the inferences as human error becasue I’ve got no road map as to where I can expect the infallible word of god versus some shmoe who wanted his story in the book. Neither can anyone else and that’s where the problem comes in and the inconsistencies mount .

Hough… I’ve got little quarrel with you but feel the need to correct some misguided statements you have made.

“My understanding is that Darwin admitted that even he was not sold on his own theory. Undoubtedly, he was an extremely bright man.”

Your understanding is incorrect – Darwin was quite certain of his theory by the time of his death. He did not however see it as incompatible with christian religious belief (and indeed it isn’t if you don’t insist that genesis is a literal account). He was an extremely bright man though.

“If evolution were to be fact, that would suggest that some apes have chosen to remain apes or they, too, would have evolved.”

This statement demonstrates that you, the same as most people, do not have an accurate grasp of evolution. This parrots the idea that we evolved from an ape. This is incorrect. The actual statement should be that apes and human share a common ancestor. This ancestor was neither human nor ape. Both human and apes evolved after a split of populations of this common ancestor which, last time I looked, the current evidence points to occuring around 13 million years ago. Apes are every bit as “evolved” as humans. This seems counterintuitive as apes are clearly inferior in mental ability to humans (though many of them exhibit physical capabilities far beyond those of humans)… but thats only because people think evolution automatically leads towards improvement. It doesn’t. Evolutionary change results in extinciton of a particular species as often as it leads to better adaptation. It’s not a guided process and has no goals – that would be design, not evolution.

Please, take some time read any of the hundreds of excellent books on evolution to gain an understanding of what it actually says before you dismiss it based on reasons that do not actually apply. Decisions made on bad information are almost invariably bad decisions!

I would suggest “The Top Ten Myths About Evolution” by Cameron Smith and Charles Sullivan as a good starting book. It’s approachable, clear, and not too technical. Amazon link for you convenience http://tinyurl.com/6jchaw (tiny url’d for spaces sake). It’s also probably available through your local library system.

I never want to force my faith on anyone, but it’s kind of like knowing where infinitely many free trunks can be found holding $1,000,000,000 and NOT sharing that information with anyone.

Hough, I respect your religious beliefs, I really do. But quite a few people (most of them assembled here, I believe) do not wish to be exposed to it (it is sometimes succinctly called “freedom from religion”).

I offer this analogy to your trunks story: I have the body of a God (Buddha), and find it so beautiful that I wish to share it with everybody. So I will stride naked through shopping centres and try to attract the attention of the unsuspecting public to my body. If you find this distasteful or wrong in any way, you can imagine how many people react to overt displays of religiosity.

I enjoyed reading your last post…and, on one hand I kind of agree with you. On the other hand, fundamentalists want to take over the ruling of my country…and they claim the Bible is the LITERAL word of God. With that in mind, I think it is perfectly right and appropriate to continue to point out that their Word of God has serious flaws. Especially for a book “divinely inspired.”

And the pi issue may indeed be debatable for a book written by men. For a book written by God such ambiguity is inexcusable.

Please, in no way, think that I accept everything without question. (If that were true, I could have found myself worshipping an inanimate object!) I have looked for answers, too and I found Jesus Christ. Others have done the same and written books about it. (i.e. The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus by Lee Strobel, an ATHEIST who set out to disprove Christianity and accepted Christ after his research.) I am at a point where I don’t feel the need to challenge Him because He’s proven enough. I understand that some people need more proof than I and that tells me that when they find out, their reinforced faith will be incredibly strong.

There are real miracles in the lives of people today, including my own. I trust God because He has proven Himself to be omnipotent in so many other ways, that I don’t doubt Him. I find joy in not having to search continuously. I am not always faithful to Him because sometimes I let other things in life get in the way, but He always remains faithful. I want to grow closer because He gave His all for me and you and everyone else. Life is hard and He lightens the load.

I never want to force my faith on anyone, but it’s kind of like knowing where infinitely many free trunks can be found holding $1,000,000,000 and NOT sharing that information with anyone. I want everyone to know what I know. I’m sorry if my words seem insufficient.

Some may wonder how this all has to do with creation and evolution, but God is more powerful than the mind can imagine. When that is understood, the question is answered.

Friend, I wish peace for you, as well.

I respect your post, but I would answer most of what you said in the following way:

There are those of us who choose to simply accept what we are told without question.

And there are those of us who choose to actually look for answers ourselves.

I was raised to be part of the former, I am now a member of the latter… and I’ve never regretted any decision in my life less.

Peace to you.

I understand what you’r getting at… and in truth, that’s the problem, as I’ve stated before, with trying to argue for or against “facts” derived from Biblical scripture. It’s hard to do without the correct point of reference… and frankly, the only correct point of reference died with the original authors.

To a biblical literalist, you’re right, there is no argument… but even to a Biblical literalist, this particular example is an inference, not a direct statement. As KC points out, the Bible does not state directly that “pi=3″… instead the inference is made based on the references of measurement given… the problem, among others, is in trying to define the author’s intent. It is unlikely that the author here is in fact a mathemetician or an engineer… and is likely simply trying to make a description of an item of importance. Getting the dimensions exactly right aren’t necessarily important to the description, or to the story… Even if you were to take the position of “well, if these were words inspired by God, are God’s words, how can they be in any way mis-interpreted?”. Well, if you’re going to take that position, you are going to have a real hard time defending about 90% of what’s in the Bible. So there’s little point in even trying to have an intelligent debate with a person who takes that stand.

So, as a rule, I like to try to only directly question those things that are stated directly and do not need to be inferred, as the definition of pi is inferred in this case. That’s why I accepted KC’s argument and decided not to try to continue to use that particular example to show the erroneous nature of the Bible.

Besides… there are lots of other examples I can use.

All of this debate about creation vs. evolution is simply Satan’s distraction to keep unbelievers from seeking the Truth about what really matters. I am not anti-science. As a matter of fact, I find it to be fascinating. God created science so He probably shakes His head at all of the debate considering His ways to be in opposition to science. I believe that adaptation to one’s environment over time is necessary based on geographic location, climate, etc. That, too, is something that is handled without any of our manipulation. If evolution were to be fact, that would suggest that some apes have chosen to remain apes or they, too, would have evolved. I don’t think certain ones could manipulate/cease the evolution of their descendants. I don’t know why people can give that type of credit to an ape and refuse to give it to an Almighty God who has raised the dead, healed the lame and allowed the blind to see.

I am a Christian and I believe in creation because I serve The risen Savior. He is capable of everything and I find security in knowing that I am not equal with Him. I would hate to think that my hope and eternity rested in anyone/anything less than God. My finite mind does not have to be capable of grasping exactly how He managed what could seem to be impossible. My God is just that cool and I wish that you knew Him. At any rate, my salvation isn’t given to me because of my understanding of what took place in the beginning; my salvation is founded on my acceptance that He died because of my sins and that He arose on the 3rd day. Quite powerful to say the least! The gift of salvation is available for all. Salvation is a free gift; no one can earn it. He doesn’t require it. He’s too loving and merciful for that. Thankfully, God is just that awesome.

My understanding is that Darwin admitted that even he was not sold on his own theory. Undoubtedly, he was an extremely bright man.

2 Corinthians 4:4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” I know that some of you will scoff at the power of God as evidenced by the above scripture. There may be one, however, who is at the end of his rope and tired of trying to make it all on his own. To that one, know that He is reaching for you. Seek and you will find. It’s really so simple.

Fundamentalists insist that the Bible be taken literally. It does not mention the brim being flared, therefore by their definition it was not.

Of course, in reality, they change the rules for whatever will make the Bible seem correct. I know that…still the “flared” bit seems a little like weaseling, wouldn’t you say? What else shall we infer that isn’t there?