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	<title>Comments on: Europe: Day 3 &#8212; CERN! The LHC!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 13:35:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: ATLAS plugged &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-194154</link>
		<dc:creator>ATLAS plugged &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-194154</guid>
		<description>[...] that? If they like you best, you get to see the LHC! I was there last year, and let me say, it freakin&#8217; rawks. You want to go [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that? If they like you best, you get to see the LHC! I was there last year, and let me say, it freakin&#8217; rawks. You want to go [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Magazinalia &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-136321</link>
		<dc:creator>Magazinalia &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-136321</guid>
		<description>[...] for yourself. I&#8217;ve hung out with him, and yeah, it&#8217;s true. But then, science is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for yourself. I&#8217;ve hung out with him, and yeah, it&#8217;s true. But then, science is [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: socratus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-119922</link>
		<dc:creator>socratus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-119922</guid>
		<description>The mad CERN ’s way.

In 1906, Rutherford studied internal structure of atoms, 
bombarding them with high energy a- particles. 
This idea helped him understand the structure of atom.
 But the clever Devil interfered and gave advice to physicists
 to enlarge the target. Bomb them!
 And physicist created huge cannon-accelerators of particles.
 And they began to bomb micro particles in the vacuum, in hoping
 to understand  their inner structure. And they were surprised with
 the results of this bombing. Several hundreds of completely new
 strange particles appeared. They lived a very little time and do not
 relate to our world.  Our Earth needs its real constants of nature. 
But this was forgotten. 
What God carefully created, is destroyed in accelerators.
 And they are proud of that. They say: we study the inner structure 
of the particles. The clever and artful Devil is glad. He again has deceived man. 
Physicist  think, that an accelerator - is first of all the presence of huge energy. 
And the Devil laughs.  He knows, that an accelerator - is first of all the Vacuum. 
But this, he has withheld from man.
 He has not explained that the Vacuum is infinite and inexhaustible.
 And in infinity there is contained an infinite variety of particles.
 And by bombing the vacuum, one can find centaurs and sphinxes.
 But my God, save us from their presence on Earth.
=========   .. ========.
Rutherford  was right.
His followers are mistaken.
Why?
Imagine, that I want to plant a small apple- tree.
For this purpose I shall dig out a hole of 1 meter width and  1,20 m depth.
It is normal.
But if to plant a small apple- tree, I shall begin to dig 
a base for a huge building (skyscraper), 
or if to begin drill ground with 10 km. depth,  
will you call me a normal man?
==========  ..  ===============.
Imagine a man who breaks watches on the wall.
 And then he tries to understand the mechanism of the watches
 by thrown cogwheels, springs and small screws.
 Does he have many chances to succeed?
 As many as the scientists have who aspire to understand
 the inner structure of electron by breaking them into accelerators.
 If not take into account the initial conditions of Genesis,
 the fantasies of the scientists may be unlimited.
==========     . ======== .
The Nature works very economical.
 For example, biologists know 100 ( hundred ) kinds of 
amino acids. But only 20 ( twenty) kinds of amino acids
 are suitable to produce molecules of protein, from which all 
different cells created on our planet. What are about another
80 % of amino acids? They are dead end of evolution. 
The physicists found many ( 1000 ) new elementary particles in
 accelerators. But we need only one ( 1) electron  and one (1 )
 proton to create first atom, to begin to create the Nature.
 All another elementary  particles (mesons, muons , bosons, taus,
 all their girlfriends -  antiparticles, all quarks and antiquarks…etc)
 are dead end of evolution.
============.
What was before - “ the big bang” or the vacuum ?
The physicists created “ Europe’s Large Hadron Colider “
 Please, look at how our physicists made this accelerator. 
They made the vacuum and after they generated a big reaction
 between two colliding particles in some small imitation of the
 “big bang”. They didn’t make this process in the reverse. 
So, what was prior in the Universe: “ big bang” or vacuum?
===========================..
The Universe as whole is Vacuum, first of all. 

Best wishes. 
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.socratus.com
http://www.wbabin.net
http://www.wbabin.net/comments/sadovnik.htm
http://www.wbabin.net/physics/sadovnik.pdf
====================..
P.S.

Will CERN find the God - Particle?
Hawking bets CERN will not find the God Particle

http://www.physorg.com/news140161003.html
================..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mad CERN ’s way.</p>
<p>In 1906, Rutherford studied internal structure of atoms,<br />
bombarding them with high energy a- particles.<br />
This idea helped him understand the structure of atom.<br />
 But the clever Devil interfered and gave advice to physicists<br />
 to enlarge the target. Bomb them!<br />
 And physicist created huge cannon-accelerators of particles.<br />
 And they began to bomb micro particles in the vacuum, in hoping<br />
 to understand  their inner structure. And they were surprised with<br />
 the results of this bombing. Several hundreds of completely new<br />
 strange particles appeared. They lived a very little time and do not<br />
 relate to our world.  Our Earth needs its real constants of nature.<br />
But this was forgotten.<br />
What God carefully created, is destroyed in accelerators.<br />
 And they are proud of that. They say: we study the inner structure<br />
of the particles. The clever and artful Devil is glad. He again has deceived man.<br />
Physicist  think, that an accelerator &#8211; is first of all the presence of huge energy.<br />
And the Devil laughs.  He knows, that an accelerator &#8211; is first of all the Vacuum.<br />
But this, he has withheld from man.<br />
 He has not explained that the Vacuum is infinite and inexhaustible.<br />
 And in infinity there is contained an infinite variety of particles.<br />
 And by bombing the vacuum, one can find centaurs and sphinxes.<br />
 But my God, save us from their presence on Earth.<br />
=========   .. ========.<br />
Rutherford  was right.<br />
His followers are mistaken.<br />
Why?<br />
Imagine, that I want to plant a small apple- tree.<br />
For this purpose I shall dig out a hole of 1 meter width and  1,20 m depth.<br />
It is normal.<br />
But if to plant a small apple- tree, I shall begin to dig<br />
a base for a huge building (skyscraper),<br />
or if to begin drill ground with 10 km. depth,<br />
will you call me a normal man?<br />
==========  ..  ===============.<br />
Imagine a man who breaks watches on the wall.<br />
 And then he tries to understand the mechanism of the watches<br />
 by thrown cogwheels, springs and small screws.<br />
 Does he have many chances to succeed?<br />
 As many as the scientists have who aspire to understand<br />
 the inner structure of electron by breaking them into accelerators.<br />
 If not take into account the initial conditions of Genesis,<br />
 the fantasies of the scientists may be unlimited.<br />
==========     . ======== .<br />
The Nature works very economical.<br />
 For example, biologists know 100 ( hundred ) kinds of<br />
amino acids. But only 20 ( twenty) kinds of amino acids<br />
 are suitable to produce molecules of protein, from which all<br />
different cells created on our planet. What are about another<br />
80 % of amino acids? They are dead end of evolution.<br />
The physicists found many ( 1000 ) new elementary particles in<br />
 accelerators. But we need only one ( 1) electron  and one (1 )<br />
 proton to create first atom, to begin to create the Nature.<br />
 All another elementary  particles (mesons, muons , bosons, taus,<br />
 all their girlfriends &#8211;  antiparticles, all quarks and antiquarks…etc)<br />
 are dead end of evolution.<br />
============.<br />
What was before &#8211; “ the big bang” or the vacuum ?<br />
The physicists created “ Europe’s Large Hadron Colider “<br />
 Please, look at how our physicists made this accelerator.<br />
They made the vacuum and after they generated a big reaction<br />
 between two colliding particles in some small imitation of the<br />
 “big bang”. They didn’t make this process in the reverse.<br />
So, what was prior in the Universe: “ big bang” or vacuum?<br />
===========================..<br />
The Universe as whole is Vacuum, first of all. </p>
<p>Best wishes.<br />
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.socratus.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.socratus.com</a><br />
<a href="http://www.wbabin.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.wbabin.net</a><br />
<a href="http://www.wbabin.net/comments/sadovnik.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.wbabin.net/comments/sadovnik.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.wbabin.net/physics/sadovnik.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.wbabin.net/physics/sadovnik.pdf</a><br />
====================..<br />
P.S.</p>
<p>Will CERN find the God &#8211; Particle?<br />
Hawking bets CERN will not find the God Particle</p>
<p><a href="http://www.physorg.com/news140161003.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physorg.com/news140161003.html</a><br />
================..</p>
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		<title>By: The end is n : The Computus Engine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-116806</link>
		<dc:creator>The end is n : The Computus Engine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-116806</guid>
		<description>[...] Cox and the gang have been on a PR offensive to reassure us that the scientists know what they&#039;re doing. Strangely a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cox and the gang have been on a PR offensive to reassure us that the scientists know what they&#8217;re doing. Strangely a [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ian On The Red Dot :: The End Of The World Is Here</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-116577</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian On The Red Dot :: The End Of The World Is Here</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 06:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-116577</guid>
		<description>[...] links here and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] links here and [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brian Cox calls &#8216;em like he sees &#8216;em &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-116141</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cox calls &#8216;em like he sees &#8216;em &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-116141</guid>
		<description>[...] the LHC is a doorway to the Universe. It will open and we will see wonders we&#8217;ve only guessed at so far. It will provide us with [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the LHC is a doorway to the Universe. It will open and we will see wonders we&#8217;ve only guessed at so far. It will provide us with [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jimmy Chen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-109643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy Chen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 07:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-109643</guid>
		<description>I like the last sentence of your essay:
&quot;No emotionless person could have ever built LHC, could have ever imagined it. It exists because of emotion — joy, wonder, and amazement — the fuel that drives the seeking of scientific knowledge.&quot;
As a physics guy, I need this kind of emotion all over my physics life. This kind of emotion is that kind of passion which Randy told us to search for...
Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the last sentence of your essay:<br />
&#8220;No emotionless person could have ever built LHC, could have ever imagined it. It exists because of emotion — joy, wonder, and amazement — the fuel that drives the seeking of scientific knowledge.&#8221;<br />
As a physics guy, I need this kind of emotion all over my physics life. This kind of emotion is that kind of passion which Randy told us to search for&#8230;<br />
Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: ALICE am LHC: Ionen, Quarks und Plasmen &#171; Begrenzte Wissenschaft</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-103711</link>
		<dc:creator>ALICE am LHC: Ionen, Quarks und Plasmen &#171; Begrenzte Wissenschaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-103711</guid>
		<description>[...] Aber höchst erfolgreich operiert gerade die ATLAS- und CMS-Lobby daran unter Einsatz ehemaliger Obskur-Popper und öffentlichkeitswirksamer Beschwätzung fachfremder Weltall-Blogger, das LHC als unbedeutenden Protonen-Collider darzustellen. ALICE schafft es da manchmal nicht mal mehr in die Zusammenfassung der LHC-Experimente. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Aber höchst erfolgreich operiert gerade die ATLAS- und CMS-Lobby daran unter Einsatz ehemaliger Obskur-Popper und öffentlichkeitswirksamer Beschwätzung fachfremder Weltall-Blogger, das LHC als unbedeutenden Protonen-Collider darzustellen. ALICE schafft es da manchmal nicht mal mehr in die Zusammenfassung der LHC-Experimente. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ricketyclick &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quote of the Day: Very Scientific Politicians</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83863</link>
		<dc:creator>ricketyclick &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quote of the Day: Very Scientific Politicians</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83863</guid>
		<description>[...] worth reading, but Hawking doesn&#8217;t get the good quote. That would be from Brian Cox, of the Large Hadron Collider [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] worth reading, but Hawking doesn&#8217;t get the good quote. That would be from Brian Cox, of the Large Hadron Collider [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: God</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83862</link>
		<dc:creator>God</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 14:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83862</guid>
		<description>Everybody has to play God and will probably destroy the earth with this experiment.  Just plant a tree or something for seven days instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everybody has to play God and will probably destroy the earth with this experiment.  Just plant a tree or something for seven days instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Ojo de la Cerradura &#187; LHC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83861</link>
		<dc:creator>Ojo de la Cerradura &#187; LHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 18:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83861</guid>
		<description>[...] just a whisper slower than light itself. For the cast of characters and a description of this tour, take a look at my earlier post describing it. There are pictures there from the journey as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] just a whisper slower than light itself. For the cast of characters and a description of this tour, take a look at my earlier post describing it. There are pictures there from the journey as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Die Beste Aller Zeiten - Eike Pierstorff : Blog Archive : The machine that will not destroy earth</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83860</link>
		<dc:creator>Die Beste Aller Zeiten - Eike Pierstorff : Blog Archive : The machine that will not destroy earth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 23:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83860</guid>
		<description>[...] Plait of badastronomy.com has a couple of posts about the LHC, the Large Hadron Collider (there&#8217;s also a podcast and here&#8217;s a link to a video about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Plait of badastronomy.com has a couple of posts about the LHC, the Large Hadron Collider (there&#8217;s also a podcast and here&#8217;s a link to a video about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Phil at LHC at Asymptotia</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83859</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil at LHC at Asymptotia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83859</guid>
		<description>[...] Phil raves about his visit in a recent post on the Bad Astronomy Blog here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Phil raves about his visit in a recent post on the Bad Astronomy Blog here. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Journey through a Burning Mind</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83858</link>
		<dc:creator>Journey through a Burning Mind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83858</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Bad Astronomer: Inside the Large Hadron Collider...&lt;/strong&gt;

Phil Plait, also known as the Bad Astronomer,  has posted a number of stories from his visit to CERN and the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) as well as a pretty nice video of his adventures. I repost it here but make sure you read his post on the visit!......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Bad Astronomer: Inside the Large Hadron Collider&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Phil Plait, also known as the Bad Astronomer,  has posted a number of stories from his visit to CERN and the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) as well as a pretty nice video of his adventures. I repost it here but make sure you read his post on the visit!&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Blair</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83857</link>
		<dc:creator>David Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83857</guid>
		<description>Shane,

Yeah, everything went as planned.

http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/trinity_safety.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shane,</p>
<p>Yeah, everything went as planned.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/trinity_safety.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/trinity_safety.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Phillips, FCD</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83856</link>
		<dc:creator>John Phillips, FCD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83856</guid>
		<description>AMIGAUSER: LHC costs in total about the same as three or four B2 bombers or ~$1/human on the planet. If you really want to rail at costs, try the obscenity that is Iraq. It has cost Australia alone a third of the cost of the LHC while the US cost is at least a 100 times the cost of the LHC and still going, not forgetting the damage to the world economy, and the UK cost to date is about equal to the total cost of builidng the LHC. Now if you want to solve European or world poverty start where the real amounts are being wasted and amounts that could make a real difference in almost every field you can think relevant to solving the worlds problems if we only had the political will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMIGAUSER: LHC costs in total about the same as three or four B2 bombers or ~$1/human on the planet. If you really want to rail at costs, try the obscenity that is Iraq. It has cost Australia alone a third of the cost of the LHC while the US cost is at least a 100 times the cost of the LHC and still going, not forgetting the damage to the world economy, and the UK cost to date is about equal to the total cost of builidng the LHC. Now if you want to solve European or world poverty start where the real amounts are being wasted and amounts that could make a real difference in almost every field you can think relevant to solving the worlds problems if we only had the political will.</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83855</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83855</guid>
		<description>Amigauserr said:
&quot;As a taxpayer, I want to know how on earth this thing got funded.
Instead of wasting billions on this white elephant, we could have used the money to help the poor in Europe and elsewhere have a better life
Its no wonder science is loosing popularity, when people see such a waste of resources.&quot;

Well, asuming you are sincere and not simply stirring stuff up to get attention, I&#039;ll try to address your concerns...

First off, CERN is an international cooperative effort.  I do not know how many states have contributed, but billions of euros is a trvial fraction of the combined annual budgets of the CERN member states.  I am sure that, if you really want to know the numbers, you could find out with a bit of research on the internet.

Second, it is no white elephant (unlike, say, the ISS, which does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; look like ever returning any fundamental science).  The LHC has the potential to give us a massive leap forward in our understanding of the fundamental nature of matter.  If you read Phil&#039;s posts about it, you may get some idea of what that is about.  Additionally, if you want to know a bit more, there are plenty of resources on the web.  Start with wikipedia and go from there.

Third, the EU member states do spend large sums of money on all sorts of projects to &quot;help the poor&quot;.  At the end of the day, however, any country is run by politicians who will be concerned about getting re-elected, so their spending priorities will represent many interests, some of which will conflict from time to time.  Everything is a compromise.  However, if you feel that &quot;the poor&quot; are not getting a fair slice of the pie, perhaps you should write to your representatives (assuming you live in a democracy of some kind) rather than simply whinge about it on the web.

Fourth, science gets a significantly smaller budget than such things as defence, health care, agriculture, education and so on.  Just because one very large project has been funded does not mean that science in general is given a large portion of tax spending.  So, if you are going to rob Peter to pay Paul, there are other places from which one could take the funds to do so.  Why pick on science in particular?

Fifth, science may be &quot;loosing&quot; (sic) popularity (something that you have not demonstrated to actually be the case, BTW), but I very much doubt that, if true, this is down to large projects such as the LHC.  Many people (myself included) feel that science is losing popualrity because science education is being cut back and dumbed down.  For instance, take the UK: whereas 20 years ago, it was obligatory to learn the three sciences from the ages of 11 - 16 (and sit exams for them), shortly after the introduction of the GCSE system, many schools were permitted to offer a &quot;double science&quot; GCSE instead of individual GCSEs in biology, chemistry and physics.  More recently, I have heard that it is no longer obligatory to continue learning any science at all at the GCSE level (i.e. the students may give up science at the age of 14 or 15).  Consequently, we have a new generation of citizens who have almost no understanding of science at all.  Meanwhile, of course, science has not stood still. Many new things have been learned in the last 20 years.  Thus, to many of the UK&#039;s young adults, science is seen as a very hard topic and is of little or no interest to them personally.  I am sure that the actual situation is more complex than I have here described it, but I believe that the factor I have highlighted is a significant one.  By contrast, I believe the modest sum of money spent on building the LHC will at most be a contributory factor (as opposed to a main one) in the purported loss of science&#039;s popularity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amigauserr said:<br />
&#8220;As a taxpayer, I want to know how on earth this thing got funded.<br />
Instead of wasting billions on this white elephant, we could have used the money to help the poor in Europe and elsewhere have a better life<br />
Its no wonder science is loosing popularity, when people see such a waste of resources.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, asuming you are sincere and not simply stirring stuff up to get attention, I&#8217;ll try to address your concerns&#8230;</p>
<p>First off, CERN is an international cooperative effort.  I do not know how many states have contributed, but billions of euros is a trvial fraction of the combined annual budgets of the CERN member states.  I am sure that, if you really want to know the numbers, you could find out with a bit of research on the internet.</p>
<p>Second, it is no white elephant (unlike, say, the ISS, which does <i>not</i> look like ever returning any fundamental science).  The LHC has the potential to give us a massive leap forward in our understanding of the fundamental nature of matter.  If you read Phil&#8217;s posts about it, you may get some idea of what that is about.  Additionally, if you want to know a bit more, there are plenty of resources on the web.  Start with wikipedia and go from there.</p>
<p>Third, the EU member states do spend large sums of money on all sorts of projects to &#8220;help the poor&#8221;.  At the end of the day, however, any country is run by politicians who will be concerned about getting re-elected, so their spending priorities will represent many interests, some of which will conflict from time to time.  Everything is a compromise.  However, if you feel that &#8220;the poor&#8221; are not getting a fair slice of the pie, perhaps you should write to your representatives (assuming you live in a democracy of some kind) rather than simply whinge about it on the web.</p>
<p>Fourth, science gets a significantly smaller budget than such things as defence, health care, agriculture, education and so on.  Just because one very large project has been funded does not mean that science in general is given a large portion of tax spending.  So, if you are going to rob Peter to pay Paul, there are other places from which one could take the funds to do so.  Why pick on science in particular?</p>
<p>Fifth, science may be &#8220;loosing&#8221; (sic) popularity (something that you have not demonstrated to actually be the case, BTW), but I very much doubt that, if true, this is down to large projects such as the LHC.  Many people (myself included) feel that science is losing popualrity because science education is being cut back and dumbed down.  For instance, take the UK: whereas 20 years ago, it was obligatory to learn the three sciences from the ages of 11 &#8211; 16 (and sit exams for them), shortly after the introduction of the GCSE system, many schools were permitted to offer a &#8220;double science&#8221; GCSE instead of individual GCSEs in biology, chemistry and physics.  More recently, I have heard that it is no longer obligatory to continue learning any science at all at the GCSE level (i.e. the students may give up science at the age of 14 or 15).  Consequently, we have a new generation of citizens who have almost no understanding of science at all.  Meanwhile, of course, science has not stood still. Many new things have been learned in the last 20 years.  Thus, to many of the UK&#8217;s young adults, science is seen as a very hard topic and is of little or no interest to them personally.  I am sure that the actual situation is more complex than I have here described it, but I believe that the factor I have highlighted is a significant one.  By contrast, I believe the modest sum of money spent on building the LHC will at most be a contributory factor (as opposed to a main one) in the purported loss of science&#8217;s popularity.</p>
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		<title>By: AMIGAUSERR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83854</link>
		<dc:creator>AMIGAUSERR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83854</guid>
		<description>As  a taxpayer, I want to know how on earth this thing got funded.
Instead of wasting billions on this white elephant, we could have used the money to help the poor in Europe and elsewhere have a better life
Its no wonder science is loosing popularity, when people see such a waste of resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As  a taxpayer, I want to know how on earth this thing got funded.<br />
Instead of wasting billions on this white elephant, we could have used the money to help the poor in Europe and elsewhere have a better life<br />
Its no wonder science is loosing popularity, when people see such a waste of resources.</p>
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		<title>By: Walkiria</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83853</link>
		<dc:creator>Walkiria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83853</guid>
		<description>Thanks cms &amp; mexico!!!!!

I&#039;ll definitely think less pourly of my government now (only a little bit less).

I will remeber both you and the LHC everytime I get my check with a smile. :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks cms &amp; mexico!!!!!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll definitely think less pourly of my government now (only a little bit less).</p>
<p>I will remeber both you and the LHC everytime I get my check with a smile. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83852</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83852</guid>
		<description>David Blair said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Whoever decided to tested it in the desert must have been a real anti-science fool!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, privacy. Someone may have noticed if they set if off at Caltech or MIT or NYU or somewhere...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Blair said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Whoever decided to tested it in the desert must have been a real anti-science fool!</p></blockquote>
<p>No, privacy. Someone may have noticed if they set if off at Caltech or MIT or NYU or somewhere&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: IBY</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83851</link>
		<dc:creator>IBY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83851</guid>
		<description>Huh, who make up those lame acronyms? :) Anyways, thanks for blogging about it, those are cool pieces of machineries.
*fingers crossed, hope that there might be Higgs boson*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh, who make up those lame acronyms? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Anyways, thanks for blogging about it, those are cool pieces of machineries.<br />
*fingers crossed, hope that there might be Higgs boson*</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83850</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83850</guid>
		<description>Mark and Stark, good answers. I am reassured. Thanks. I think I am so focused on the need for government leadership ($$$) on the alternative energy front that I leap immediately to the opportunity costs of doing particle physics research, wishing the big bucks would flow more rapidly to alt. energy projects. I shouldn&#039;t begrudge CERN their billions - as you observe it is a multinational funding effort. Plus, particle physics and alternative energy generation are certainly not unconnected ... fields. Cheers,

B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark and Stark, good answers. I am reassured. Thanks. I think I am so focused on the need for government leadership ($$$) on the alternative energy front that I leap immediately to the opportunity costs of doing particle physics research, wishing the big bucks would flow more rapidly to alt. energy projects. I shouldn&#8217;t begrudge CERN their billions &#8211; as you observe it is a multinational funding effort. Plus, particle physics and alternative energy generation are certainly not unconnected &#8230; fields. Cheers,</p>
<p>B</p>
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		<title>By: James H.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83849</link>
		<dc:creator>James H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83849</guid>
		<description>And here I sit, about 10 miles from the 14 mile tunnel from the partially built SSC, and sigh....that could have been here, and I would be teaching high school in the high energy physics capital of the world...Instead, just fields and cows...
What makes me more mad than anything: The U.S. helps to fund CERN after cutting this project, and they only cut it to get re-elected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here I sit, about 10 miles from the 14 mile tunnel from the partially built SSC, and sigh&#8230;.that could have been here, and I would be teaching high school in the high energy physics capital of the world&#8230;Instead, just fields and cows&#8230;<br />
What makes me more mad than anything: The U.S. helps to fund CERN after cutting this project, and they only cut it to get re-elected.</p>
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		<title>By: David Blair</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83848</link>
		<dc:creator>David Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83848</guid>
		<description>Stark, Shane, Mark,

I guess the A-bomb did cause a few unforeseen radiation poisonings and cancer, but so does smoking. Still I agree, it was very successful!

Whoever decided to tested it in the desert must have been a real anti-science fool!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stark, Shane, Mark,</p>
<p>I guess the A-bomb did cause a few unforeseen radiation poisonings and cancer, but so does smoking. Still I agree, it was very successful!</p>
<p>Whoever decided to tested it in the desert must have been a real anti-science fool!</p>
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		<title>By: Stark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/comment-page-2/#comment-83847</link>
		<dc:creator>Stark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/04/22/europe-day-3-cern-the-lhc/#comment-83847</guid>
		<description>B,

I do think you are asking the wrong question here.  It&#039;s not something we can actually answer - while there may be some direct and predictable benefits to humanity as a whole form this research it is the unexpected way discoveries get used that tend to have the largest impact on our world.  We may discover the Higgs Boson at the LHC and have an answer as to why matter has mass and in turn that may lead to a true understanding of gravitation which may in turn lead to ways to modify local gravity which could in turn lead to cheap and easy access to space and the ability to accelerate probes to large fractions of the speed of light and allow for direct close range observation of our nearest stellar neighbors adn discovery of extralosr planets capable of supporting life as we know it.  Maybe. We just don&#039;t know.

What we do know is that we will not continue to advance as a species if we don&#039;t seek answers to the questions we find. We do know that previous &quot;pure science&quot; endeavours have resulted in improvements for mankind as a whole - visit any hospitals nuclear medicine wing for very direct examples.

So... I would say the right question to ask is not &quot;What are the practical benefits of this research?&quot; but rather &quot;Are the practical results of past pure research enough to warrant continuing to do this sort of thing?&quot;  I would argue strongly that the answer is &quot;Yes!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>B,</p>
<p>I do think you are asking the wrong question here.  It&#8217;s not something we can actually answer &#8211; while there may be some direct and predictable benefits to humanity as a whole form this research it is the unexpected way discoveries get used that tend to have the largest impact on our world.  We may discover the Higgs Boson at the LHC and have an answer as to why matter has mass and in turn that may lead to a true understanding of gravitation which may in turn lead to ways to modify local gravity which could in turn lead to cheap and easy access to space and the ability to accelerate probes to large fractions of the speed of light and allow for direct close range observation of our nearest stellar neighbors adn discovery of extralosr planets capable of supporting life as we know it.  Maybe. We just don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>What we do know is that we will not continue to advance as a species if we don&#8217;t seek answers to the questions we find. We do know that previous &#8220;pure science&#8221; endeavours have resulted in improvements for mankind as a whole &#8211; visit any hospitals nuclear medicine wing for very direct examples.</p>
<p>So&#8230; I would say the right question to ask is not &#8220;What are the practical benefits of this research?&#8221; but rather &#8220;Are the practical results of past pure research enough to warrant continuing to do this sort of thing?&#8221;  I would argue strongly that the answer is &#8220;Yes!&#8221;</p>
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