Prednisone???? Good lord. It’s amazing (and extremely irritating) to see people on the one hand railing against modern medicine for “causing” autism with all of these toxic injections, only to see people then turn around and recommend considerably more dangerous medicines to somehow “treat” the autism.

The first of the really toxic ones I heard about was chelation. Chelation is nothing to mess around with; the stuff is lethal, and so it should only be used in life-or-death cases and in a hospital setting (i.e. there should be a crash cart on hand in case the person goes into cardiac arrest — a very real risk that somehow doesn’t get mentioned to parents of autistic kids). Then it was Lupron, a powerful testosterone-suppressing drug. Good grief. I’d hate to see the parents trying to explain *that* to their kid in fifteen years. And now Prednisone? *shakes head*

My grandmother has taken huge amounts of prednisone through the years. She has severe asthma, and until the recent advent of new drugs, oral (or in some cases intravenous) prednisone was the only option. Her skin is paper-thin, and crinkled like tissue paper. She is covered in bruises, because it’s so fragile. When she bangs her shin on coffee tables, she needs to see a plastic surgeon to repair the damage. A well-meaning nurse once put a band-aid on her before she could stop him; she needed a skin graft after it was removed. She’s had repeated surgeries to try to correct the damage after she had a melanoma removed, because it’s been so difficult to get a cosmetically acceptable result. (It was on her forehead, and the initial surgery resulted in her eyebrow sagging down over her eye and obstructing her vision.)

It is obvious that the people peddling these cures are not telling the parents the real risks. They are overstating the risks of vaccines while completely ignoring the much greater risks of their “therapies”. High dose prednisone for a kid who is completely healthy apart from a behavioral problem…. Wow.

Of course, there is good news. This therapy cannot possibly succeed in curing autism or ADHD. On the contrary, it will most likely greatly exacerbate the child’s symptoms. Prednisone makes people jittery. Very jittery. I believe my grandma has ADD. When she’s on Prednisone, she bounces off the *walls*. It gets so much worse. She’ll change topics five times in one sentence.

I think not getting vaccinations for your children is borderline abuse, but only vaguely. Just because your kid isn’t vaccinated doesn’t mean that the child WILL catch the disease for which your child isn’t vaccinated against. If the child catches a communicable disease for which there is a vaccionation, its effects could be equal to that of the “common cold”, they could be severely debilitating, or they could kill the child.

I think the parent has a right to do what they think is in the best interest of the child. Her stance is this: “You should have the choice whether or not to vaccinate your child, and it should not keep your child from receiving an education. In many cases both are required, giving parents no choice. On the flip side, you get to take the responsibility for what happens. And if one non-vaccinated child contracts one of the communicable diseases and brings it to school and another non-vaccinated child contracts it, too. The parents of both children made the choice to not vaccinate their children. The vaccinated children should not suffer the disease.” Boiled down to… you have the choice; you suffer the consequences. However…

I think that the choice (which is the part we agree on) is fine and dandy, but then the child potentially suffers. While the child is healthy, no action can be taken towards the parents because no harm has been done, but then when something does happen to the child, who is unable to take responsibility for his/her own health, suffers. So, then you punish the parents, which, if this is the only way the parents have “abused” the child (NO parent is perfect), in turn punishes the child along side the potentially crippling/life-threatening disease. I just realized this is a point I have not brought up into the conversation.

Where do we draw the line? Where is it parental rights in protecting their children (however misguided) and the government overstepping its bounds?

She also thinks that initially the current anti-vaccination crowd may have initially had reason to cry out against vaccination. And I tell her, that may be true, which is why studies are constantly being done on these types of things. I thought it, but I didn’t say anything with regards to those who continue harp on incorrect thought (e.g. vaccination == autism). I’m still trying to work out her entire thought process on this, and it’s been difficult for me to put into words what I think about this on the spot. This may be a poor analogy, but… Sure, I have heard I might get mugged if I walk down the street, but it isn’t going to stop me from doing so if I know that if I am aware of my surroundings, which streets to walk down, what times to walk, and how to carry myself, the chances of me getting mugged will probably drop. We can only go on what we know now and make corrections when new information is received. Even if the studies show chances of something say autism were to be higher with vaccination, would the vaccination saving my child’s life may be worth the risk? I guess it would depend upon what the specific disease the vaccination is for.

shingles aren’t a second case of the chicken pox. It’s having the first case come back.

I understand that, Doc, but if a child is immunized, and never gets the original infection, there is no latent virus to cause problems later, right?

The issue is not with people who carefully weigh the decision and, due to valid medical and health reasons (e.g., the vaccine is likely to kill or serously injure the person). The issue is with all the people screaming rather fanatically that vaccines (or thimerosal or MMR or…or…or…) causes autism.

Net gain at little cost of anything worthwhile!

[/sarcasm]

Well, one’s got to wonder. We can’t save everyone from every disease [i]and[/i] continue feeding everyone who can’t/won’t manage to feed themselves [i]and[/i] maintain economic growth [i]and[/i] maintain (much less save) environmental health all at the same time. Something’s got to give.

Now, I’m an idealist. Therefore, this situation sucks for me. Overpopulation is a problem, but when people talk of “culling” I suggest that perhaps they should lead the way by taking a Smith & Wesson mouthwash. Population reduction by natural attrition (okay, noneuphemistically: watching people die by not helping them out of random acts of Nature), while still grim, is at least more acceptable. Looking at this situation, people are [i]opting out of artificial survival benefits[/i]. At least it respects free will and independent moral agency.

I am advocating that parents should have the right to decide for them and their children what is best for their situation.

With rights come responsibility. How can parents with little or no scientific training judge whether to vaccinate their children? How do we help parents understand that Jenny McCarthy is not a reliable source of medical information? How do we help parents understand that personal anecdotes are not reliable, or that correlation is not the same as causation?

Regression at 20? That’s a new one. Let me suggest this is probably a nocebo effect. I assume your son is well aware of your views regarding his way of being being to an extent the result of vaccine damage.

I have 8 children and 6 of them are autistic or borderline autistic. In our case, it is most likely genetic. (Yes, we are involved with at least 3 different study groups on autism, all of them very scientific, no fringe cult groups, all associated with universities or other well-respected agencies.) The one thing that hasn’t been addressed here is not that vaccines cause autism but that they can make the symptoms much worse. I stopped vaccinating with the first diagnosis of autism. Most of my children have been at least partially vaccinated. My youngest has not. She has an overactive immune system to begin with (food allergies diagnosed at 3 weeks when I was breastfeeding her), vaccinating her just might have killed her.

No, I’m not advocating that no one should vaccinate. I am advocating that parents should have the right to decide for them and their children what is best for their situation. I have a pediatrician who agrees with my decision not to vaccinate.

When my children are older, it is their option whether or not they pursue further vaccination. My 20yo son chose to have multiple vaccinations a year ago. His autistic symptoms practically paralyzed him socially for over three months, to the point where he rarely talked and wouldn’t leave the house. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Last time I had a flu shot, I spent two months in bed with fibromyalgia symptoms. Last time I had the flu, I spent three days in bed.

Vaccination is not for everyone in every circumstance. Stop judging and belittling those of us who have made informed decisions regarding this.

Something you should consider is that the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was designed with the knowledge that it would provide compensation in many cases where there was no real connection between the vaccine and the injury which was said to follow from it. Petitioners in “table cases” don’t have to prove causation at all – only that they received a vaccine and experienced something which, according to the “table,” is believed to be a possible consequence of that vaccine within a specified time period. Clearly, some of these phenomena would have occurred with or without the vaccine, but the point of the system is that the petitioner doesn’t have to establish but-for causation. Thus, some of the payouts are not really justified, and that’s OK.

Are vaccines 100% safe? No. Is taking a bath 100% safe? Petting a dog? Crossing the street? Eating a doughnut?

Heck, we even vaccinated the children against chicken pox when it bacame available, because I suffered greatly through that malady at age 22, and didn’t want my children to suffer the same at any age.

Sure, we have been concerned about the possible side effects, the one-in-a-hundred-thousand chance of adverse reactions, that sort of thing (but never worried about autism), but the risk of diseases the vaccinations prevent far outweighed the possible risk of a bad reaction (especially given our family histories that showed no adverse effects for generations).

Vaccinate? Yes, done!

Agreed that manufacturers probably are not going to do the studies unless some big tragedy happens involving their product in combination with something else. With enough public pressure, NIH might look into it, but only as long as such pressure is not tied to the anti-vax autism fanatics. Epidemiologists may be interested in doing it, particularly those whose work focuses on immunological or autoimmune diseases. Depends on the likelihood of such inquiry panning out to a valid study.

Bottom line, if it looks like the study will not produce a significant outcome one way or the other, people either will not do it, or it isn’t likely to get published.

You are mischaracterizing my viewpoint. My statement to the effect that “I had X and didn’t die” was a response to earlier statements that “X kills”, and was intended only to show that “X kills” isn’t 100% true.

I do understand the basics of epidemiology, biology, and the immune system, and overall I think vaccines are one of the greatest inventions of modern medicine (right up there with antibiotics).

I am one of those who questions the lack of scientific support for the current immunization schedule. I also don’t feel enough research is being done in this area.

You stated that sooner or later if a claim is valid the data will come to light to support it, but who is going to fund research on the long-term effects of administering combinations of vaccines? No single vaccine manufacturer is going to perform the study because it’s not required by the government, and it is also in their financial best interest *not* to perform such a study. No individual or small organization would have the resources for such a study, nor would they benefit from it.

The government could do it (or require the vaccine manufacturers to do so), but they won’t until forced to by the public (the corporate world certainly won’t ask). I suppose some blood-sucking parasitical trial lawyers might be interested, but their unlikely to pony up money for original work (they’d only want in on it after the fact).

Well, it’s an election year … maybe I’ll send a note off to a congresscritter and see if it gets a response.

I have no problem with that at all. Sounds like a great idea.

What I have a problem with is people using unfounded fears as a basis for creating a significant, *known* health problem: the transmission of diseases easily prevented by vaccines.

But, since you are “*not* stating that people should stop vaccinating their children”, nevermind!

About 30% of the children I personally know who received the varicella vaccination went on to contract chicken pox. In two cases (brother and sister) the doctor said they got a lighter case than they would have, though it looked pretty much like the average case I saw when I was young. Even by the estimates of the vaccine manufacturers, vaccines aren’t 100% effective.

Just something to consider.

@Brett

Millions of people take homeopathic “remedies” every day and insist they work, but that doesn’t prove they’re effective.

Tobacco manufacturers argued for decades that smoking wasn’t harmful, and presented scientific studies to back it up.

Several drugs have been approved in the past by the FDA and were widely prescribed, only to later have been found to have serious side effects (e.g. Viox, Celebrex). These drugs went through lengthy pre-approval studies.

I’ve heard some say that if aspirin were invented today, the FDA would never approve it for use because of safety concerns (e.g. ulcers, Reyes syndrom).

Some of the vaccines that used to be in mainstream use are no longer being used because of later revealed safety concerns (e.g. cellular Pertussis, rotavirus). These were vaccines that had been approved as being safe by the FDA.

You know (or at least you should) that in medical studies it can take years of sifting through mountains of data to find the correlations, and that the lack of evidence because no one looked is not evidence of safety.

I am *not* stating that people should stop vaccinating their children.

I simply would like to see a long-term safety study on the current vaccination schedule. Since there are a large number of people in the population who have not been vaccinated for whatever reason, a careful meta-study should be sufficient to see if there is any further reason for concern. Find a couple good-sized health studies were the patients’ vaccination history was recorded, group them according to number of vaccines received (make sure to control for things like residence patterns, socioeconomic status, ethnic background, etc.), and see if any unusual correlations pop out.

What would I look for? Probably not things like autism or cancer or the like. I’m more curious about immune-related disorders. But in general you’d just collate the data and look for the anomalies that can’t be explained. Y’know, science.

Of course, if you find scientific inquiry threatening then I can see why you’d have a problem with this.

“Why did a totally safe system “

Who’s saying the vaccination system is “totally safe?” Certainly not the manufacturers or the government.

Yes, congratulations, you’ve demonstrated there are known risks associated with the administration of vaccines. Nobody is claiming otherwise. What I’m disputing is the idea that vaccines are somehow responsible for other “mysterious” illnesses (such as autism), due to their individual action, or “the combined effect of so many vaccines in such a short amount of time”, which Doc seems so concerned about. These claims are not, to my knowledge, borne out by the millions upon millions of vaccine recipients that are ailve and well, today.

Now, is it possible that current vaccination regimes are unnecessarily aggressive, thus increasing the chance of harmful, immediate side-effects? Sure. But I’m in exceedingly skeptical of any claims that vaccinations are responsible for other, unrelated syndromes, unless there is data to support such connections.

I don’t happen to personally subscribe to the autism/vaccine connection. Perhaps that’s because in my own case my 5-year old autistic son never exhibited any regressions associated with vaccinations. But concerning the safety of vaccines you are aware, are you not, of the existence of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program?

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

Why did a totally safe system pay out $809,677,609 in injury compensation between 1990 and 2008?

Also, there is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System:
http://vaers.hhs.gov

According to VAERS in 2007 there were 23,875 events reported. 132 of them were deaths, 401 were life threatening, 377 caused a permanent disability, 10,883 involved a visit to the emergency room.

Well stated. Nice summation of the topic.

If you look at the demographics of the people who are killed or injured by vaccine-preventable diseases, you will notice a few trends:

[1] Generally, it is the youngest and the oldest who die. Since – in the case of diseases that give life-long immunity – the older members of society are either already immune (or already dead), the largest group of fatalities is among very young children who have lost the passive immunity the received from their mothers (usually happens after about 6 months).

By the time a child reaches school age (or even pre-school age), they have either been exposed or have reached a size where the viral infection is less likely to kill them. This accounts for the perception that these diseases are benign illnesses of childhood (that, and the general tendency to see the past with less clarity than the present).

[2] However, certain vaccine-preventable illnesses are more dangerous and deadly to adults. These include (but are not limited to) herpes zoster (“chickenpox”/”shingles”), polio, mumps and possibly measles (“rubeola”). Rubella is a special case because it is not necessarily more dangerous to the adult, but it causes terrible damage to an unborn foetus.

So, the elementary school years are the “Golden Years” for vaccine-preventable illnesses (except for diphteria and tetanus, which are equal-opportunity killers). Children in these years are, however, marvelous vectors for spreading these diseases to the more vulnerable members of society.

As a result, none of your classmates may have died or been crippled by measles, mumps, rubella or chicken pox, but their infant siblings, cousins and neighbours may well have.

Finally, when someone admonishes me to “keep an open mind”, I find that most of the time what they really mean is “Suspend skepticism and reason – just believe what I tell you!” What they really want is for me to give them a “break”, to “cut them some slack”. In other words, to hold their claims to a lower standard than all others.

But why should I give an outlandish or “unconventional” claim more “slack” than I give the more mundane day-to-day claims (e.g. “Whiter teeth in 30 days!” or “Lose weight while you sleep!”)? If the claim is valid, it will eventually have data to support it. When that data is presented, I will be eager to hear it.

Until then, I’m going to “keep an open mind”, which, to me, means that I don’t believe it or reject it until I have some data.

The “We’re giving our kids too many vaccines!” hypothesis is a perfect example. Originally based on a very loose temporal correlation (i.e. autism prevalence started to go up at the same time that more vaccines were introduced), this hypothesis still lacks adequate to support it.

This is a problem because the same temporal correlation applies for Internet access, cell-phone usage, and Brittney Spears (although we have been seeing less of Ms. Spears lately). And, while I am sympathetic to those who claim that the assertion that the current vaccination schedule also lacks data to support it, the biological plausibility of the vaccines-cause-autism (or asthma or ADHD or…) requires that it have better data before it is accepted.

Keeping an open mind….

Prometheus

“I am stating that the current vaccine schedule has not been proven to be safe and effective”

You’re saying the millions and millions of people who have been vaccinated *don’t* qualify as proof that it’s safe and effective?

My point is this: unless you can identify particular side-effects that have been linked to vaccinations, the idea that vaccinations are unsafe is, plain and simply, scaremongering. I say this based on the fact that vaccinations have been in mainstream use for *decades*, and the only thing anti-vax people have come up with is a non-existent connection to autism.

Thanks for the post.

Who else was in the ER when these infected children were brought in, you may ask?

Mothers and fathers with infants.
Infants too young to have been vaccinated.
Infants who may have found themselves in the hospital on a floor with other infants after their potential exposure.

Don’t forget pregnant women and people with suppressed immune systems, too. Whether suppressed due to disease or due to having to be on immunosuppressing drugs like Prednisone. Many people in that category have to go to emergency rooms too.

I was on Prednisone for several months last year. At one point during that time I ran into a kid in public who seemed to have chicken pox. I had to forgo a meal that day because he was in the only place I could get that meal, and I didn’t want to risk getting infected. I didn’t have a way of communicating at that time how pissed off I was, but I was very pissed off that people were bringing their very obviously sick kids into cafeterias.

Oh, by the way, speaking of Prednisone, did anyone hear how there are now quacks trying to promote its use for autistic children in a pretty long-term manner (it’s normally used, in cases of severe conditions that can kill you, far more minimally than they’re recommending for these kids with non-lethal conditions)? So, great, I bet soon we’ll have a bunch of immunosuppressed kids running around with all the rest of the damage Prednisone does to growing bodies as well. I seriously wonder how long till an autistic kid dies on that stuff.

Speaking of which, I have a friend who is on Prednisone long-term for legitimate reasons. Probably for the rest of her life. This is her post about the results of antivaxxers leaving their kids unvaccinated around her. I fear that some day it could be worse — for her, for me, for any of my friends who sometimes or always end up on immune-suppressing drugs (to save our lives), for anyone who takes them, or has an immune-suppressing condition already.

Nobody seems to think of us when they refuse their vaccines.

The problem with the anti-vaccine people is that they keep shifting hypotheses, so long as they have something to do with vaccines. First it was the MMR, then thimerosal, then some suggested aluminum; now it’s mito-PDD caused by vaccine-induced fever. In vaccine court, they are now saying only 10% or 15% of autism cases are caused by thimerosal, so the epidemiology is no good to disprove an association.

You see, they are basically shifting goalposts such that the broad hypothesis becomes nearly unfalsifiable.

Nope, I’m not the person asserting anything. The person/organization/blog/government that asserts that 52 vaccinations is optimal is the entity that is required to provide the evidence.

I am stating that the current vaccine schedule has not been proven to be safe and effective, and that there may be harmful, long-term side effects. Look how long it took before “gulf war syndrome” was determined to be a real medical issue – and the conclusions on it are still pretty murky.

-=-

Todd W.,

Exactly. Thanks.