Comments on: Antivax ad nauseum http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Sun, 05 Jul 2009 01:41:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Nathan Myers http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89352 Nathan Myers Sat, 17 May 2008 01:16:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89352 Pat: I see that you prefer to blame me, personally, for having somehow initiated and sustained the rumors, over discussing why they have taken root and fluourished, or how that might be prevented in the future. Your own behavior is an excellent example why suspicion fluorishes. Good day. Pat: I see that you prefer to blame me, personally, for having somehow initiated and sustained the rumors, over discussing why they have taken root and fluourished, or how that might be prevented in the future. Your own behavior is an excellent example why suspicion fluorishes. Good day.

]]> By: Pat http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89351 Pat Fri, 16 May 2008 04:57:58 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89351 Nathan: Dutifully, after you commented, I provided the quoted passage in question. You now dismiss this as being relevant, oddly echoing dismissal of studies as not perfectly answering whatever allegations you choose to level. But you seem to hold on to this lack of logic as a mainstay, now blaming providers of vaccines as culpable instead of the spurious scaremongerers who started these bizarre associations in the first place. I suppose the WHO is to blame for the scaremongering that polio vaccination in Africa is actually spreading HIV. You know, Nathan, I suppose you are correct. Everyone is to blame for the spreading of unfounded ridiculous rumors except for the people who start and repeat them. And every denial of them plays into the conspiracy theories, so there should be no denials. Or critical thinking, since that also seems to feed the distrust. We all know that intellectuals can't be trusted. They think too much. So, so true, Nathan. Nathan:
Dutifully, after you commented, I provided the quoted passage in question. You now dismiss this as being relevant, oddly echoing dismissal of studies as not perfectly answering whatever allegations you choose to level.

But you seem to hold on to this lack of logic as a mainstay, now blaming providers of vaccines as culpable instead of the spurious scaremongerers who started these bizarre associations in the first place. I suppose the WHO is to blame for the scaremongering that polio vaccination in Africa is actually spreading HIV.

You know, Nathan, I suppose you are correct. Everyone is to blame for the spreading of unfounded ridiculous rumors except for the people who start and repeat them. And every denial of them plays into the conspiracy theories, so there should be no denials. Or critical thinking, since that also seems to feed the distrust. We all know that intellectuals can’t be trusted. They think too much.

So, so true, Nathan.

]]> By: Nathan Myers http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89350 Nathan Myers Fri, 16 May 2008 01:21:59 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89350 Pat: Again, it's far from clear who you think you're arguing with. What is it I'm supposed to be "convinced" of? That conclusions X(i) from N studies must imply that barely-related claims Y(j) must all be justified, so long as N is large enough? I'm not among the people you want convinced, in any case. Distrust of vaccines is at a high, with correspondingly reduced vaccination rates. That didn't happen by itself. Blaming "crazies" is disingenuous; "crazies" have very little effect on most facets of public life. The distrust was generated by the actions of people in positions of responsibility. Distrust will not be resolved by labeling people as crazies. Trust is earned by transparently scrupulous behavior. Fluffy astronomy bloggers posting behind exclamation marks does not qualify as transparently scrupulous behavior. Leveling random accusations at people concerned about high levels of distrust doesn't help either. Pat: Again, it’s far from clear who you think you’re arguing with. What is it I’m supposed to be “convinced” of? That conclusions X(i) from N studies must imply that barely-related claims Y(j) must all be justified, so long as N is large enough? I’m not among the people you want convinced, in any case.

Distrust of vaccines is at a high, with correspondingly reduced vaccination rates. That didn’t happen by itself. Blaming “crazies” is disingenuous; “crazies” have very little effect on most facets of public life. The distrust was generated by the actions of people in positions of responsibility. Distrust will not be resolved by labeling people as crazies. Trust is earned by transparently scrupulous behavior. Fluffy astronomy bloggers posting behind exclamation marks does not qualify as transparently scrupulous behavior. Leveling random accusations at people concerned about high levels of distrust doesn’t help either.

]]> By: Michel B. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89349 Michel B. Fri, 16 May 2008 01:07:06 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89349 Beche-la-mer: That about sums it up, I think. I had a similar moment, where my son asked my mother what that odd scar on her shoulder was. When I explained what smallpox was, he was horrified. The mere fact that a person can grow to the age of 13 without ever knowing what smallpox is testifies to the utility of vaccination. Beche-la-mer:
That about sums it up, I think.
I had a similar moment, where my son asked my mother what that odd scar on her shoulder was. When I explained what smallpox was, he was horrified. The mere fact that a person can grow to the age of 13 without ever knowing what smallpox is testifies to the utility of vaccination.

]]> By: Beche-la-mer http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89348 Beche-la-mer Fri, 16 May 2008 00:54:35 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89348 The best pro-vax argument I have ever heard (and I admit its pretty much anecdotal), was when I took my son for his polio vaccine and my then 10-year-old stepdaughter asked, "What's polio?". The best pro-vax argument I have ever heard (and I admit its pretty much anecdotal), was when I took my son for his polio vaccine and my then 10-year-old stepdaughter asked, “What’s polio?”.

]]> By: Michel B. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89347 Michel B. Fri, 16 May 2008 00:45:52 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89347 Space Cadet: No offence taken, certainly. I use the term ASD partly because it is generally considered to be the correct umbrella term these days, and partly because it's fairly commonly used in the ASD community itself. I do sometimes forget that it doesn't really have much currency amongst the general public yet. To nitpick: not all ASD people have problems with language. Unless one considers pedantic usage or formality to be problematic, of course. As you might have guessed by now, I do not:) Space Cadet:
No offence taken, certainly.
I use the term ASD partly because it is generally considered to be the correct umbrella term these days, and partly because it’s fairly commonly used in the ASD community itself. I do sometimes forget that it doesn’t really have much currency amongst the general public yet.

To nitpick: not all ASD people have problems with language. Unless one considers pedantic usage or formality to be problematic, of course. As you might have guessed by now, I do not:)

]]> By: Space Cadet http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89346 Space Cadet Thu, 15 May 2008 19:52:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/14/antivax-ad-nauseum/#comment-89346 Michael B, The SBM article suggests that the unexpected rise in 'autism' diagonses is due to an expansion of the diagnosis rather than an increase in patients with particular symptoms, hence the expansion of the name from 'Autism' to Autism Syndrom Disorder (or something simular, been a while since I read it). The article points out correlating increases in ASD diagnoses with decreases in other language disorders. Same number of sick folks, just another name for what they have. Certainly, no offense meant. Michael B,

The SBM article suggests that the unexpected rise in ‘autism’ diagonses is due to an expansion of the diagnosis rather than an increase in patients with particular symptoms, hence the expansion of the name from ‘Autism’ to Autism Syndrom Disorder (or something simular, been a while since I read it). The article points out correlating increases in ASD diagnoses with decreases in other language disorders. Same number of sick folks, just another name for what they have. Certainly, no offense meant.

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