“I’ve watched complete 45-min sermons by Wright. The full sermons are actually *more* America-hating than the commonly quoted clips.”

Perhaps Mark could clarify what he means by “America hating”.

I find compelling similarities behind how American patriots react to criticisms of policies of US politicians, and how some parents react to criticisms of their children’s misdemeanors.

Some parents initially dismiss or discount any reports their kids broke a window, stole a chocolate bar. Other parents, who love their kids at least as much, accept that kids have to learn a sense of morals, and that many kids commit transgressions on their way to doing so.

I’d rather have as a neighbor the parent who can consider the possibility their kid committed a transgression than the parent who practiced total denial. I would rather have the parent who makes the kid return the chocolate bar as a neighbor.

I know some of those parents who practice public denial tell themselves they will get to the bottom of the accusation — in private. I know some of those denying parents never get around to getting to the bottom — while others administer private cruel and unusual punishments.

Whose kid is more likely to grow up to have a realistic, dependable, moral sense?

And, so far as I concerned, the American patriots who are able to consider criticisms of American policies on their merits, are much more likely to actually help fix problems than those who practice total denial.

How many of Wright’s criticisms hold merit? I dunno. But I do know that the USA has a serious case of boosterism and complacency.

Regarding the similarities and differences between Obama’s relationship with Wright and McCain’s relationship with Hagee…

There are multiple reasons someone joins and stays in a LOCAL CHURCH. Trust in the judgement of one’s pastor is one reason. Appreciation for the church’s local charitable projects would play a part. One’s relationship with fellow parishioners has to play a part — as would the relationship of one’s spouse and children with fellow parishioners.

McCain did not seek out Hagee’s endorsement because of his parish’s charitable efforts, or because of the personal relationships he or his family had with Hagee’s parishioners.

Regarding McCain’s superstitiousness, and the Reagan’s faith in Astrology. It is scary when Life imitates Art. When I was a kid I read a Science Fiction story by Robert Heinlein, where the President’s wife let her astrologist’s advice guide her maneuvering of her husband the President. It was one point that strained my willing suspension of disbelief. As a young person I never thought a US President would let Astrology guide his decisions. I was shocked — remain shocked — that this actually happened in the Reagan White House.

As I said before, the “liberal media” are an outdated myth.

Carl Sagan was dead wrong about the Kuwait oil fires.

Yes, and he admitted it in his book The Demon-Haunted World, where he used his mistake as an example of science correcting itself.

What, please, is your point?

For feck’s sake, if Adolf and Stalin had had the same ideology, we’d see swastikas and hammer and sickles on every street corner and every elementary school kid would be able to speak German and read Cyrillic.

Nazism and Soviet Communism were both major dangers and terrible, oppressive systems of government, but they were vastly different in ideology and neither is anything like the liberal side of U.S. politics.

Deir Yaseen, your diatribe is totally off-topic here. This has nothing to do with Israel’s practices, whether real or imagined. It’s simply that Hagee supports Israel because he wants to bring about Armageddon, and that McCain doesn’t even understand that (or lied about it).

And jiminy cricket, this blog post is not about Obama. It’s about McCain. I can choose to write about Obama or not (and I have and I will). The point here is that Obama can clearly not share beliefs with his pastor and get lambasted in the media, yet with McCain there is silence when he seeks out the support of someone who wants to end all life on Earth.

And finally, Mikel, Sagan was far more outspoken than I have been. What he wrote about Reagan is pretty good stuff. And while Sagan is a hero of mine, it’s not my goal to replace him. I figure I can do pretty well on my own.

And I won’t stop talking about this, because if McCain is elected we’ll get four more years of Bush’s failed and disastrous policies. It’s really that simple.

Paddy Chayefsky (who also wrote “Network”) sums it up in this incredible 6 minute scene from “The Americanization of Emily” (1964) directed by Arthur Hiller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tHS-ibOpSY

Some who directly participate in war don’t find it at all glorious or heroic; it is the basest action humans can take to settle a dispute.
War leaves far more civilian dead than it does soldiers. War is an enormous drain of resources, money and people on the countries which engage in it. Often the nation with the balance of money and resources is the “victor.”

And the winners are “heroes,” while the losers are ignominious in defeat. Yet we continue to glorify the act – especially if we’re on the “winning” side – and heap adulation on those we send to do our warring for us.

Are there “good” wars, or are there only “failed diplomacies?” And who decides: it is the winners who write the history and dispense the medals – but the Viet Cong and the NVA are heroes in the eyes of their countrymen. John McCain thinks that war could have been “won.” He also thinks we can “win” in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And the suicide bombers and “insurgents” of this latest conflict are loyal
soldiers and heroes in the eyes of their countrymen.

Why have so many of us, McCain’s countrymen, turned against the “war” in Iraq; a conflict unilaterally begun by the U.S. for what has become increasingly obvious: our interest in maintaining an influence over the oil fields of the Middle East. Does this make our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan “just?”

This conflict has gone on for over five years; the Vietnam conflict lasted eight. What will be the tally of “heroes,” dead and alive, “enemy” and “good guy”, for this war?

Just because “socialist” was in their title does not mean they were lefties. In fact, they hated the ordinary “Socialists” in Germany of the time – who were leftists and totally despised the German “communists” of the time who were even farther left.

And they all fought each other in the streets. Weren’t they fighting over the same constituency – the German worker?

Ironically, the Nazi’s adapted some social programs for employment and public works projects in 1930s Germany. (As the US was doing also to overcome the worldwide great depression.)

I don’t think that argument works in your favor.

the Nazis themselves were a far right-wing conservative party that co-opted German traditions and some religious mysticism

A far right wing conservative party that overthrew the government and traditional German society through a radical revolution? How is that right wing or conservative in any sense of those words?

autumn: The definition of socialism pretty much precludes nationalism, so one has to assume that there is the slightest possibility that the Nazis weren’t very accurate in naming themselves.

Why? Isn’t socialism just state control of business? Aren’t there different flavors, with communism being international socialism, and fascism being national socialism?

tactitus – Fair enough point. It’s a disturbing relationship, and I’m curious how McCain reacts to it.

Wright has done little more than rail against real and imagined injustices for 20 years

That’s quite a sugarcoating. Preaching “God damn America,” “US of KKKA,” Louis Farrakhan is an important voice so we’ll honor him with an award, Hamas is A-OK, and the CIA invented AIDS to people who, since they go to church, must obviously be impressionable simpletons, is irresponsible at best, destructive at worst.

Which is my point – Phil, self professed skeptic and rationalist, has devoted at least 2 posts to McCain’s oddball religious connections, but can’t spare a pixel for Obama’s far tighter relationship with his odious pastor.

Silly McCain. The magic has been inside you all along.

Maybe John is one of those unfortunate enough to be considered “collateral damage” in DNAs inexorable march of survival?
Unfortunate or not, I don’t want him for Pres.

GAry 7

I used to like McCain, thought was reasonably moderate until he SUCKED UP to GWB in ’04 (after being trashed by Bush/Rove in ’00). I respect / appreciate his service and extreme sacrifice he has made for his country, but it obvious he’s sold out to the neo-cons and dropped a few screws over the past few years.

Having served in the same war, it’s not “a pilot thing.”

If he hadn’t interfered, the Turks would still be in control and none of these things would have transpired. Of course they weren’t the most tolerant of people, either.

Come to think of it it’s really all the fault of Archduke Ferdinand- bad, bad form for getting assassinated, and leading ultimately to the horrors of both world wars and their aftermaths.

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket since the downfall of the old imperial empires. Everything was perfect back then. Order. Pogroms. Intolerance. Women in the kitchen and bedroom. Body taxes in the colonies.

And now we have terror, fanaticism, free sex, AIDS

See the pattern???

Come to think of it the blame can really be laid at the feet of australopithecines who climbed down from the trees and started eating bugs off the savannahs. Bad chimp! Bad!

Or those fishipods who refused to stay in the swamp.

Then there were the prokaryotes who thought they could make ‘a more perfect union’ leading to nucleated cells. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING????

If microorganisms really can recolonize the earth from space after a catastrophe, maybe we should just start over. You’ve all lost my vote.

The rest of the planet (well, okay, a lot of it anyway – esp. the sane parts like say Australia, Denmark, Ireland, New Zealand, Sweden, Belgium, etc ..) really does look at the poor political choices of the USA of A & wonder in appalled puzzlement :

What the heck were they thinking!?

Firts Bush Jr, now McCain …

The so-called “Republican” party really is the Retardican party – set on retarding or even reversing every bit of social, environmental and political progress – & run by retards isn’t it?

He and his “Christian” Zionists really are just outright evil.

Never mind his bizarre superstitions and his proud feat of having been shot down and captured – that guy (and his Israeli fundamentalist backers) are loons who in any sane nation woul;d be nowhere near being considered as candidates for highest offfice.
____________

PS. Oh, & news flash for the Christians out there – many Palestineans are Christian too!

PPS. Sorry about the stuff-up with the auto-emoticon coming from : and ) being close together. Computers .. Sigh.

200,000 Palestinians have been killed.
5,000,000 refugees have been created.
21,000 square kilometres of land has been annexed.
385 towns and villages have been destroyed.
300 billion military dollars have been spent.
100 plus WMD’s have been manufactured.
65 UN resolutions have been ignored.

Source : ‘Row over “anti-Israel” art display’ in ‘The Age’ , 4-5-2004. (Yes, that’s dated – the stats are even worse now. As are these

Palestinian casualties = 3,049
Israeli casualties = 905

Source : ‘Middle East Policy Council website, 6-7-2004.( As of 5th July 2004.)

The 1947 UN partition plan granted 55 % of the Mandate to Israel. By 1970 they had occupied all of it. (& more.) Gaza & the West bank compose 22% of Mandate of Palestine.
(Gilbert, 1993 & Reinhart, 2002.)

One of far, far too many examples of the “collateral damage” or killing of innocent civilians by the Israeli military occupiers :

When, when, when, will the world, esp. the Western world, say to Israel : ENOUGH!?

BA : “McCain hypocritically tried to distance himself from some of what Hagee was saying, but specifically embraced Hagee due to his “support for the state of Israel”. The problem? Hagee supports a state of Israel because it’ll bring Armageddon and the end of days, as written in Revelation.

Quite frankly there is a huge problem – ethically as well as politically & financially with anyone supporting the racist militaristic, apartheid theocracy that is the modern nation of Israel for any reason!

Lets put aside the pro-Israel, anti-peace & anti-sanity neo-con rhetoric
for a sec and examine the stark reality folks :

Israel murders Semitic women, men and children left right & centre!
(Yes folks, the Palestineans, Lebanese & other Arabs are also Semites lets try not to forget that for a change shall we??)

Israel is a state for a certain ethnico-religious minority only – exclusively for people of the Jewish religion – as judged by fundamentalist Rabbis – and treats other groups as second class citizens incl. – or indeed far worse!

Only Jews are allowed a “right of return”, all Jews anywhere are welcome and flown into Israel but Plaestinean refugees are barred from re-entering their land, only Israeli settler Jewish extremists are provided roads, settlements, etc .. Plus there is the Berlin-wall style Apartheid wall built to keep the indigenous Palestineans from the conquored “Jewish” colonialist areas of what is rightfully the Palestineans land.

Israel has attacked invaded and occupied – & still occupies – large parts of other sovereign nations in violation of UN Resolutions and international law!

Israel has secret WMDs and has threatened to use them – moreover it refuses to allow UN inspection of its nuclear weapons facilities!

Research for yourselves folks on-line (or elsewhere) the name Mordechai Vanunu & the Dimona secret Nuclear plant.

Israel murders peace activists, journalists and political opponents – the latter are also frequently imprisoned unjustly and tortured!

Examples : Rachel Corrie – a US peace activist brutally crushed to death under an Israeli bulldozer-tank hybrid for protesting about Israel’s illegal use of collective punishment in destroying Palestinean homes. Tom Hurndell (spelling?) a journalist deliberately fatally shot in the head by an Israeli soldier. Mahmoud Barghoutti – Palestinean leader perhaps their equivalent to Nelson Mandela – falsely jailed, Hamas spokesperson Shanab politically assassinated by the Israeli military. Note : Shanab was a (relatively moderate) member of Hamas but he was NOT a “terrorist” or in its military wing just a political activist.

Israel spies on the USA and its super-powerful, obscenely wealthy politicial lobby excercises vastly disproportionate political clout which severely damages the USA’s reputation, credibility and interests abroad!

Both Muslims and Jews make up about 5 % of the total US population – but, of course, the Jews virtually run US Foriegn policy while the Muslim population in America are made scapegoats and demonised in a way, ironically, very reminiscent of past European anti-semitism against the Jewish branch of the Semitic peoples. (Recall what I said earlier, its true folks, Muslims are today’s “Jews”… )

Oh & for the record I’m neither anti-Semitic nor a “self-hating Jew” as the Israeli Jewish extremist lobby invariably slanders anyone who dares criticise its “sacred cow” apartheid military theocracy. Yes, I really do have Jewish friends – & my heroes two great Jewish-descended individuals Isaac Asimov & Noam Chomsky.